<DocScrutinizer>
hmm yeah, 256MB ram + 768 swap here :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe for NN opkg is the better solution
<DocScrutinizer>
if someone killed all the bugs meanwhile ;-)
<rafa_>
DocScrutinizer: we have used opkg with 16MB of ram in HP Jornadas.. it is not nice yet, but it works at least
<DocScrutinizer>
well, as long as it's not yast/red-carpet :-P
<DocScrutinizer>
with mono XP
<rafa_>
:D
<DocScrutinizer>
that shit easily brought machines with 512mb ram and 1G swap to a grinding halt
<DocScrutinizer>
I means, when ps shows me *.exe processes - on a unix machine - LOL
<DocScrutinizer>
but I think they fixed it some 3 years ago
<DocScrutinizer>
even before SuSE became OpenSuse
<DocScrutinizer>
n8
<gbraad>
in ¬ !
<wolfspraul>
gbraad: welcome
<wolfspraul>
in my dreamy eyes, you are Mr. FPGA and Mr. Fedora!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
gbraad: I think one time you said somewhere you looked at Elphel but found the CPU too exotic?
<wolfspraul>
so when I got one and built the toolchain and rootfs from scratch I was surprised how smooth it was
<wolfspraul>
just a few hours, all was done
<wolfspraul>
I expected worse from your comment. Did you run into big problems back then?
<gbraad>
mostly experience from colleagues. they weren't so satisifed by it
<wolfspraul>
do you remember details?
<wolfspraul>
which part caused the dissatisfaction?
<gbraad>
it must have been the general feel to them as they had done more work on ARM before (as they joined our team for the software porting)
<wolfspraul>
hmm, OK
<wolfspraul>
we will try to get Elphel 353 supported in OpenWrt
<gbraad>
i am curious about this :)
<gbraad>
tonight at the blug they have a talk about openwrt
<gbraad>
:-s
<gbraad>
I will attend the meeting as I have a meeting with someone; loongson will offer me hardware for the Fedora MIPS port ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I am thinking about a mobile Elphel, battery+spartan-6+cmos sensor, no CPU
<gbraad>
so everything in the spartan; very flexible
<gbraad>
afk
<wolfspraul>
want to focus the time on free tech, much more fun
<gbraad>
it is. but for example getting fedora on the Milkymist? I consider it not possible yet... ;-)
<gbraad>
targetting mips is an easy step to a larger market of cheap chinese netbooks and maybe workstations
<gbraad>
i still imagine a OLPC sugar running an a Nanonote+
<gbraad>
noticed Jon was also in town
<kyak>
wolfspraul: i know this might be an unappropriate question or even wrong in terms of copyleft paradigma, but does Qi-hardware actually earn money? Was your comment about employees coming at morning with their own money just a turn of speech or a joke? :)
<wolfspraul>
he he
<wolfspraul>
why unappropriate?
<wolfspraul>
no definitely nobody makes money right now, same is true for distributors
<kyak>
asking other people about money is unappropriate :)
<wolfspraul>
but that's OK, no problem here we knew this before
<wolfspraul>
depends on the culture
<wolfspraul>
hugely different between cultures
<wolfspraul>
since I am so global nowadays whatever it is, I go with the flow
<kyak>
so right now this is a bare enthusiam?
<wolfspraul>
no I think it's a real business opportunity
<kyak>
how do you see it?
<wolfspraul>
copyleft hardware
<kyak>
but it's not a way to earn money, is it?
<wolfspraul>
why not?
<kyak>
you give it away for free?
<kyak>
for others to copy
<wolfspraul>
the knowledge, yes for sure
<kyak>
i'll ask it in a different way: to earn money, you need to sell something. What are you going to sell?
<wolfspraul>
Ben NanoNote, 99 USD
<wolfspraul>
we will try to drive the price down, and software (usability) up
<kyak>
ok, i was thinking of NN and it's price (which is already quite low) as a means to compensate for some current expenses.. I thought there was something bigger :)
<kyak>
Ben NN is a thing for enthusiasts, it will never sell like iPad
<wolfspraul>
enthusiasts? no I think we can make it useful to everybody
<kyak>
also, the more compnies will use your copyleft hardware, the less users will buy it from you?
<wolfspraul>
I doubt that. If another company would join (which would be the awesomeost thing that could happen), then we would both advance the state of technology
<kyak>
it would be nice to make it useful for everyone, but right now NN is for those who are let's say "technically educated"
<wolfspraul>
yes but let's make it easier and easier. first for ourselves, then for everybody.
<kyak>
i can't disagree with that! :)
<kyak>
actually, i;m quite impressed with people coming here
<kyak>
and their level of expertise
<kyak>
especially when they start talking about FPGA :)
<wolfspraul>
the progress in the first year of NanoNote was amazing
<wolfspraul>
if we can continue at the same rate in the second year things will be pretty interesting
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, meanwhile we enjoy the path
<kyak>
how long did it take from the start of development to the first production sample?
<wolfspraul>
I like my NanoNote, and the idea of slowly using it more and more.
<wolfspraul>
hmm, 'production sample' don't know exactly what you mean
<wolfspraul>
we worked with a manufacturer and opened up an existing device
<wolfspraul>
it took us 9 months until we actually started selling
<wolfspraul>
from 0 to Ben NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
now let's see how long it takes us to Ya, I think it's at least another 6 months out
<wolfspraul>
we need to sell some more Ben
<kyak>
that's fast.. what it used to be before? you said existing device
<wolfspraul>
which can only work, as you noticed, if we can make software and content more valuable
<wolfspraul>
electronic dictionary
<kyak>
localization (that's what i'm afraid of most when i get my NN) - specifically, cyrillic input
<kyak>
have no idea right now how it will work in openwrt :)
<freespace>
what will the ya have?
<wolfspraul>
kyak: yes, great, we should work on that
<freespace>
the main thing holding me back from a ben nanonote is lack of gpio personally
<freespace>
if i bought one i won't kno what to do with it
<wolfspraul>
kyak: we have a lot of customers in Japan, and I think they are using Japanese console fonts just fine
<wolfspraul>
but we need to bring more of that into openwrt, I agree
<wolfspraul>
so I think we are trying to get fbterm into openwrt, for example
<wolfspraul>
I don't know all details of all hacking activities, you would need to look into the openwrt sources yourself
<wolfspraul>
but I am definitely very very interested to get good cyrillic support
<wolfspraul>
many people have already looked into this, it's a lot of work to get to work really well
<freespace>
nod
<freespace>
i will do my research :)
<wolfspraul>
so for the time being we are improving the fundamentals of the kernel/distribution/OS
<wolfspraul>
personally I believe in the openzim effort for a long time, but then I kind of lost hope there because the Wikimedia Foundation doesn't really seem to be behind it
<wolfspraul>
so I will try to .tar.bz2 based text readers next
<freespace>
noted
<wolfspraul>
at least those dumps are regularly created for all wikimedia wikis, which is a huge chunk of work already done
<freespace>
yep
<wolfspraul>
some people looked into those readers recently, found some inefficiencies that would probably need to be improved before they would run well on a NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, I don't believe something like this will just fall from the sky one day. it's a lot of pieces that need to move in place.
<freespace>
yep, i understand
<wolfspraul>
theoretically the NanoNote could be an awesome offline reader, with color TFT, even spoken Wikipedia (it has a speaker)
<wolfspraul>
but that's just theory
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<freespace>
:)
<wolfspraul>
freespace: there was a good mail about this recently on our list, trying to find it...
<freespace>
rather like all the electronics shops in hk
<wolfspraul>
we have some quite good and active guys in Australia, I think Mark Adrian Bell is there for example
<freespace>
seeedstudio is another .hk shop i am quite fond of
<freespace>
i will keep that name in mind
<freespace>
maybe he will be coming to pycon in sydney in a few wks' time
<wolfspraul>
you can announce that you are going there on the developer list
<wolfspraul>
or I can try to connect some of our Australian users, just need to be careful about privacy and spamming
<freespace>
a most excellent idea
<freespace>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
so if they ordered, and didn't check the 'subscribe to announcements' button, I will not contact them
<freespace>
nod
<wolfspraul>
but other than that sure, always like to help connect people
<wolfspraul>
yeah we already don't keep any credit card data on our servers
<wolfspraul>
and you can buy without creating an account
<freespace>
yay
<freespace>
pet hate: make an account to purchase
<wolfspraul>
maybe we should also delete data of customers who don't want to be talked to after 30 days or so
<freespace>
i never understood why they want to put more barriers between my money and their account
<wolfspraul>
I totally hate all these tricky things to drill into people's minds.
<wolfspraul>
So that they always remember the company.
<freespace>
in a bad way!
<wolfspraul>
zedstar: hi there
<wolfspraul>
our old Nepal thing just came to my mind again
<wolfspraul>
any news there? we are working on some localization improvements, Japanese, Chinese, someone just mentioned Cyrillic
<zedstar>
wolfspraul hi....that demo was accepted.....also got a small amount of money for a small pilot study..
<zedstar>
wolfspraul now trying to see if funding to develop some SDL style apps like the pdf search engine
<zedstar>
wolfspraul re: nepal well sujan got accepted to some 2 week programme in india which is funded/hosted by microsoft so ive told him to make some useful connections
<wolfspraul>
nice
<wolfspraul>
what does this mean practically? how can we make the Ben NanoNote more useful for the Nepali users you are thinking about?
<wolfspraul>
is there anything practical we can do?
<wolfspraul>
like some fonts, some particular software
<zedstar>
wolfspraul personally i think the launcher side of things would be useful to improve......with a core set up apps like pdf view, search, wiki reading etc
<wolfspraul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
nothing Nepal specific then right now. keep me posted because those are requirements I wouldn't come up with myself.
<zedstar>
wolfspraul sure. does not have to be focused only on nepal....have also contact now with some people that did a project in kenya also
<zedstar>
wolfspraul i will have some more time soon as term finishing up....have some personal projects with the ben then will start work on the pdf search engine
<wolfspraul>
cool
<wolfspraul>
which distribution do you work on? openwrt?
<zedstar>
wolfspraul openwrt as i put a little bit of effort in to learn having used openembedded before
<zedstar>
wolfspraul basically anything that helps builds the dependencies....not such a fan of a standard alone toolchain
<zedstar>
stand alone even
<zedstar>
just woke up
<tuxbrain_away>
wolfspraul: have read the intentions (I also know long term) on the work on the elphel cam, can I suggest to add to the specs the 1039 card features? maybe changing CF by SD, and what was the intention? still targeting to industrial alike appliances or you have in mind to turn it a little bit general porpouse handy cam?
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: yeah, very long term :-)
<wolfspraul>
I am just thinking
<wolfspraul>
intention is cheaper, focus on free technology
<wolfspraul>
those are the 2 main things I am thinking about
<emdete>
tuxbrain_away: have you seen the vid? :D
<tuxbrain_away>
I guess integrating the connectors and then using fpga to make the "virtual chips" to control them (ala milkymist style)Â Â should not increase much the price
<tuxbrain_away>
yeah emdete :) way to go the "Hello world" of any arduino haker blinking led !!!
<tuxbrain_away>
just one step beyond of course
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: exactly it's along those lines
<tuxbrain>
thanks to milkymist I think we have the usb, ethernet, sd, and serial also there, so only the SATA interface should be worked on
<wolfspraul>
which vid are you guys talking about?
<wolfspraul>
well, if all of those things would work stable or at all, which they don't
<wolfspraul>
but with Milkymist we have no more excuse
<wolfspraul>
so worst case if nobody helps we will do it ourselves line by line. but I am hoping we can count on some support, so far seems to be quite good...
<tuxbrain>
heheheh wolfgang first steps of emdete with the Arduino board
<wolfspraul>
oh nice
<tuxbrain>
a bunch of led blinking in secuence , "artistically" attached directly to the board
<tuxbrain>
hope one day is the SACK board on what I do the demos :P
<tuxbrain>
knows is more up to him than anything else
<tuxbrain>
emdete: replace the yellow led with some flat red ones on line and you can tune up your car as the knight rider :P
<tuxbrain>
on line-> inline
<emdete>
tuxbrain: that was the idea, yes! :D :D
<emdete>
tuxbrain: so next i will do a serial protocol to talk to pyneod :)
<methril>
hi all!!
<methril>
tuxbrain: allways with crazy ideas
<methril>
:P
<methril>
wolfspraul: i own you at least two emails
<methril>
going to work (bbl as methril_work)
<wolfspraul>
methril: you only owe me your happiness and good spirits. no worries I know you are out there and we are committed...
<wolfspraul>
maybe catch you later...
<methril_work>
i´m back
<methril_work>
wolfspraul: i´ve news about bringing nice prototype gadgets
<wolfspraul>
ah nice
<wolfspraul>
about the Elphel camera we talked recently, I already sent it to mirko
<wolfspraul>
he was quite excited about it and will try to get OpenWrt to support it, so let's first see how that works out
<methril_work>
wolfspraul: oh!! what a pitty!! i was also excited but the bureaucracy and taxe rates get me sad
<methril_work>
wolfspraul: there are some nice projects as SAKC and Milkymist ;)
<wolfspraul>
methril_work: no worries this is not lost
<wolfspraul>
not at all
<wolfspraul>
methril_work: with all those things moving right now, I suggest we give David and mirko some time and see what happens
<wolfspraul>
I still have a 3rd one I can give to you, but I wanted to start using it myself to record videos
<wolfspraul>
then we can either send one to you, or get a 4th one :-)
<wolfspraul>
or produce our own, even better :-)
<wolfspraul>
we'll see
<wolfspraul>
methril_work: these projects all connect together, and we will try to generate as much cross-support as possible from them
<wolfspraul>
so what are your news?
<rafa>
hello, which is the max size for a Linux kernel in NAND?
<methril_work>
my news are that the products could be sent as Engineering Samples
<methril_work>
and theys should pass without all the taxes
<methril_work>
without applying all the taxes
<methril_work>
here we have import taxes. transistion between states taxes and state taxes
<methril_work>
the simplest way is some of you goes to LinuxCon Brazil or FISL and bring one toy
<rafa>
xiangfu: Hey, hello. I have a short question for you :) : Do you know which is the max size (possible) for a Linux kernel in NAND?
<methril_work>
rafa: i don`t thing there is a NAND size limit for kernel
<rafa>
yeah, but perhaps boot loader has some limits that it can manage perhaps?
<rafa>
methril_work: I ask because I tried to put a kernel file with a little initramfs inside, but boot loader was not able to boot it
<methril_work>
you need to get a compressed kernel or uncompressed one
<methril_work>
u-boot copies  the kernel from NAND to RAM and uncompress it
<methril_work>
the recent u-boot supports lzma bz2 bzip ....
<methril_work>
you must load the kernel first and later execute the initramfs
<rafa>
methril_work: I can build/boot kernel without initramfs.. but when I build a kernel with a initramfs inside it stucks .. with bad data crc
<rafa>
so I was guessing that bootloader was not able to manage that bigger one. But perhaps I am wrong
<methril_work>
but i think that u-boot only supports ramdisk image
<methril_work>
you have to pass the initramfs as init command
<rafa>
mmh.. ? I just enable "Initial RAM filesystem and RAM disk". Then I specify an "Initramfs source file"
<rafa>
kernel uses that initramfs if it is there.. I do not need to specify an init kernel command.. or do you mean some init bootloader command?
<methril_work>
but you need to copy the initramfs to RAM and set the initramfs pointer to the memory location
<rafa>
methril_work: is not the kernel doing that?
<methril_work>
in x86 yes. in other archs no
<methril_work>
i never try it in MIPS
<methril_work>
but i know is working in some ARM archs
<rafa>
wait.. when you specify a "Initramfs source file" you put inside the kernel the initramfs. It knows about it and it uses it. BUt perhaps nobody in the earth has tried that before? :) (in mips)
<rafa>
I have tried in ARM and SH archs
<rafa>
x86 of course
<rafa>
if the kernel knows about RAM it just does the work
<rafa>
the initramfs is inside the kernel, it is not a special file outside..
<methril_work>
maybe you need to take a look the RAM address and add a aditional boot command to u-boot
<rafa>
methril_work: the initramfs is part of the kernel file.. why would we like to add some additional boot command to u-boot?
<rafa>
you mean that uboot should says something to the kernel about RAM that it has not said before?
<methril_work>
if it´s embedded into the kernel maybe you are missing some info on the kernel to boot it properly
<methril_work>
or you get out of RAM (usually the kernel copies and decompress at the last memory address)
<methril_work>
i don´t know exactly the NN implementation
<rafa>
I know that when you embedded into the kernel the kernel already knows about it when building.. but I do not know what is happening.. the problem is before the kernel starts to boot..
<wolfspraul>
rafa: different question - does JLiMe support patented codecs like MP3, MPEG4, H.264?
<rafa>
for uboot it should be the same I guessed, like any other kernel, but bigger
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu is the u-boot and initramfs expert, too bad he's not in the channel right now
<methril_work>
and you specify that bigger size to u-boot?
<methril_work>
i could not access to NN right now
<methril_work>
but i take a look tonight
<rafa>
wolfspraul: we have madplay which knows how to play mp3. Other formats no IIRC. We have mplayer (with those craps codecs) but as extra package..
<wolfspraul>
ok but in general in the JLiMe project you don't care to disable/configure out patented stuff?
<wolfspraul>
sounds like if you have madplay by default, and the video codecs probably in the package repository
<rafa>
methril_work: I think that I can not specify options to uboot. Well, we can re build it with more options perhaps :)
<methril_work>
namesake. sorry that i could not give you more help
<methril_work>
you could through serial line
<wolfspraul>
rafa: there is no problem with that (no patent policy at JLiMe), but it means that we need to keep the Qi copyleft hardware wiki & server resources and JLiMe separate
<rafa>
wolfspraul: yes, we have not had care about to disable/configure out patented stuff. BUt that is because nobody started to talk about, which we should
<methril_work>
remembers have to take a look to a sw taht access the u-boot params in linux systems
<wolfspraul>
yeah but that's a separate discussion and a clean IP boundary is good anyway
<wolfspraul>
I will write an email with our latest thoughts on the Qi patent policy to the list
<wolfspraul>
the goal is to protect everybody's freedoms, no worries we will get this right eventually
<methril_work>
time to back to work
<rafa>
wolfspraul: sure, /about to keep the Qi copyleft resources separate)..
<wolfspraul>
the openwrt project introduced the patented flag and helped us generate an image and package repository that can be configured to a state that the hardware won't infringe on patents
<wolfspraul>
which is important for the people that are touching (selling) the hardware in certain countries
<wolfspraul>
so we can always bundle the openwrt software (with those flags in place) with the hardware
<wolfspraul>
and other software needs to have their own home, but that shouldn't be a big problem
<methril_work>
crappy lincense patents abuse
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
I just hope the fact that you can recompile openwrt from source to include them back in, or get binary packages from upstream (though on links that are not documented/promoted by Qi) will not become a problem
<wolfspraul>
eventually we have to ship the hardware just as some pieces of dead plastic to avoid the patent nonsense :-)
<rafa>
wolfspraul: I think that we (jlime) should not patented stuff. But we have not talked about never IIRC. It is there just because the bazaar Jlime story
<wolfspraul>
the last legal advice we got said that as long as the out-of-the box image can't do it, and it's not installable via mechanisms setup by the manufacturer, we should be safe
<wolfspraul>
no problem, no stress
<wolfspraul>
we first need to get this right for copyleft hardware and especially the copyleft hardware distributors in patent-affected countries
<rafa>
I think that we (jlime) should not have patented*...
<wolfspraul>
ok but that's your decision
<wolfspraul>
and a lot of people may feel why should 80% of the world suffer for a stupid system that the top 20% of the world has setup
<wolfspraul>
I like openwrt's solution of having a flag
<wolfspraul>
I hope that allows us (the manufacturer) to separate ourselves enough from patented codecs so that we don't infringe on those patents
<wolfspraul>
to the best of my knowledge it does
<rafa>
wolfspraul: well, we have no discussed that before, so there is not decision there, it is just our bazaar story
<xiangfu>
rafa: Hi. don't know that.
<wolfspraul>
hey
<rafa>
xiangfu: hey, okey, no problem. I will check further and I will try to realize that using tests :)
<xiangfu>
rafa: ok :)
<rafa>
wolfspraul: it will be great if you write about Qi thoughts/decisions about patented stuff, so others (like Jlime) can think a bit about :)
<rafa>
wolfspraul: that is not an easy topic to talk, because you need to know it a lot
<rafa>
wolfspraul: what about other distros?.. should we remove all the debian links from our web sites? (I am talking about mp3 decoder for example).. All the main distributions have mp3 players and decoders/encoders..
<wolfspraul>
rafa: the point is to keep the hardware and software separate
<wolfspraul>
or rather to only bundle hardware with software that will not make the combination infringe on someone's patents
<wolfspraul>
so yes, we will move the Debian stuff from the Qi wiki into a Debian on NanoNote blog that is separate
<wolfspraul>
for JLiMe this is all easy because JLiMe always has been a pretty clearly separated project
<wolfspraul>
so the people that are distributing copyleft hardware can say "we have nothing to do with JLiMe" and can do so in a legally correct way
<rafa>
that sounds good, perhaps we should write on wiki a bit about "why it is a good thing to separate differnt kind of stuff")
<qwebirc79935>
Greetings, I'm looking for expertise advice about systems engineering. I want to build a computer from scratch. I've got Linux from Scratch for the software aspect, but I've not been able to find a satisfactory resource for the hardware equivalent.
<qwebirc79935>
\nick IDMclean
<wolfspraul>
IDMclean: hey welcome!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
now it gets interesting - how do you want to define 'from scratch' in hardware?///
<wolfspraul>
there are wildly different approaches here, and many many projects
<wolfspraul>
I'm a big believer in the upcoming Milkymist One, that's definitely a 'computer', but a loooot of work
<IDMclean>
wolfspraul, the aim of my endeavor is to understand how the system works at the machine level. I've got the abstract theories regarding circuits mediating logical operations and such. I kinda understand how to put boards together, and I can assemble a computer fully from motheboard-daughterboard components. I want to bridge the gap between that and high level programming.
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
many years ago I used to build my own computers
<wolfspraul>
back then that meant chosing a mainboard, maybe a CPU
<wolfspraul>
then put some memory inside, and ISA cards, later PCI
<wolfspraul>
I think what 'building a computer' meant has changed dramatically over the last 30 years
<wolfspraul>
in mobile/embedded it's becoming hard again, everything is integrated by processes that require very high-end equipment
<wolfspraul>
soldering a large BGA chip onto a board is not like plugging a PCI card into your mainboard
<wolfspraul>
and I doubt anybody wants to grow their own silicon and cut slices from it for photolithography :-)
<IDMclean>
Indeed.
<IDMclean>
Not yet anyway.
<wolfspraul>
well to give you a serious answer to your question, one would know a lot of parameters on your end
<wolfspraul>
how much time and money you want to spend
<wolfspraul>
what you plan to get out of it in the long run
<wolfspraul>
for notebooks the concept of 'build my own' already barely exists
<wolfspraul>
maybe some mini-PCI cards, some ram
<wolfspraul>
for smartphones? not at all
<wolfspraul>
so I don't really know what to tell you
<wolfspraul>
the Ben NanoNote is a very integrated, mass-produced little pocket computer
<wolfspraul>
I don't think you can learn what you are looking for from it.
<IDMclean>
I'm studying mechatronic engineering with an emphasis in artificial intelligence, life, simulation, and game design.
<Ornotermes>
wolfspraul: i talked to a guy in a forum some time ago that wanted to make his own micro-sd card
<arctanx>
IDMclean: If you want to run Linux you're naturally going to have to have an architecture supported by Linux -- unless you have a lot of free time, that's going to amount to at least buying an off-the-shelf CPU. You'll have to work out where to draw the line though
<IDMclean>
Ideally, I would like to build a box to experiment with building living operating systems.
<IDMclean>
Ideally, I want FOSS.
<IDMclean>
A good descriptor of what I want is a laboratory in a box. If I can peel open all the hardware and software, it would be ideal. I'm going to build a custom linux distribution on it, so I've already started thinking about what kind of constraints I'm going to follow regarding manufacturers.
<IDMclean>
I'd like to experiment with using parallel and non-von Neumann architectures.
<wolfspraul>
ouch
<wolfspraul>
for me it sounds like you need to introduce a few more real-life constraints
<Ornotermes>
IDMclean: a really good example would be Magic-1 (runs a port of Minix 2)-> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
<lars_>
linux from scratch won't help you to make linux support your platform
<IDMclean>
I'm going to take the time and effort to systematically go through the tutorials they provide.
<arctanx>
LFS is basically a guide for if you have a bog-standard x86 PC which is already running a host linux system with a compiler
<IDMclean>
Ornotermes, I am aware of the fact. This is most certainly a long term project. I want to learn to write drivers.
<wolfspraul>
IDMclean: maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't FPGAs give you the tools to do just what you want?
<wolfspraul>
parallellism etc, your own CPU?
<wolfspraul>
I still think you should also check out Milkymist One, or in fact the Milkymist project
<kristianpaul>
morning
<wolfspraul>
but maybe I'm not understanding exactly what the goal is...
<IDMclean>
wolfspraul, at the moment the goal is to poll experts about what is and is not possible or feasible.
<IDMclean>
^_^
<nebajoth>
hello.
<nebajoth>
what's the topic?
<IDMclean>
I want to build a computer from scratch.
<nebajoth>
good lord
<nebajoth>
copylefted, I assume?
<IDMclean>
Yes
<arctanx>
IDMclean: On an unrelated note, if you want to learn to write drivers, check out http://lwn.net/Kernel/LDD3/ (free PDF) or "Essential Linux Device Drivers" by Venkateswaran. I can recommend both
<IDMclean>
Thank you.
<arctanx>
well, not unrelated
<arctanx>
you asked about drivers. but it won't help you build a computer
<arctanx>
is wearing out C-r looking at the fedex page... a nanonote in China isn't much use
<IDMclean>
The purpose of attempting this is to learn computer engineering from the bottom up and theoretical computer science from the top down. Mainly, I'm looking for learning resources to better understand how and what my motherboard and it's component parts are doing.
<IDMclean>
So what would I need beyond LFS to get linux working with a custom board?
<wolfspraul>
IDMclean: in Milkymist One you have it all in free source form
<wolfspraul>
the CPU, the compiler/toolchain, the realtime or Linux kernel, and everything above
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't know how more to build a computer 'from scratch' than that
<wolfspraul>
depending on your interests, you could modify the (soft)-CPU, or write an entirely new (soft)-CPU
<arctanx>
IDMclean: With a standard architecture (ARM, MIPS) or your own design?
<wolfspraul>
of course if you modify the lowest level, the CPU, then everything above needs to go along, toolchain, kernel, etc.
<wolfspraul>
but if you don't align this well with others, even 5 lifetimes won't be enough to ever get your computer to do anything useful
<wolfspraul>
I think time is another thing you should factor in. When do you want to be finished?
<IDMclean>
Circa ten years.
<Ornotermes>
IDMclean: have you been fooling around with off shelf microcontrollers?
<IDMclean>
No.
<wolfspraul>
my best bet is still Milkymist, especially for a 10-year project :-)
<wolfspraul>
but that's selfish, I like Milkymist
<wolfspraul>
you should seriously think carefully before you invest 10 years of your time (which is I guess what you are doing...)
<IDMclean>
That's part of this process, I'm looking for where to start. I've been told to look into circuit design before. I looked, found it unsatisfactory because it didn't link with my programming experience. I'm less interested with the electrical engineering.
<wolfspraul>
a project like Milkymist allows you to really dive deep into parallelism, yet stay (mostly) in a software world
<IDMclean>
I'm willing to learn it as I go to end up with a minimalistic computer that meets my specifications.
<wolfspraul>
any FPGA project allows you this
<wolfspraul>
so let's just say "fpga computer"
<IDMclean>
k
<wolfspraul>
doesn't need to be Milkymist, that's just one instance
<IDMclean>
I'm confortable with that.
<kristianpaul>
milkymist is an fpga computer, at least i plan use the MM1 as one
<kristianpaul>
or webserver or something
<Ornotermes>
IDMclean: if you have any plans to make your own CPU you should learn some assembler(since that is a part of what your compilers would use) and how a CPU executes the code and work with memory and registers
<kristianpaul>
btw i learning that with the Milkymist
<arctanx>
IDMclean: One possibility, if you're keen on linux and the programming angle, is to study the kernel code thoroughly. If you ever want to run it on custom hardware you'll have to be intimately familiar with it anyway, and if you understand it you'll have a really good idea of how the hardware fits in with all the high level software
<IDMclean>
I'm on that currently. I'll be taking assembly soon, and I'm in the thick of studying architectures, automata theory, and the likes.
<IDMclean>
arctanx, any recommendations on learning resources for kernels?
<arctanx>
Not really. That's a work-in-progress for me, and my conclusion is that it moves so damn fast that you just have to make do with things like that LDD3 book and try not to drown in all the code
<arctanx>
and changing APIs
<arctanx>
lower-level stuff, like how it boots on a particular class of processor, should be relatively stable though
<IDMclean>
The project I have in mind right now involves putting a variation of a genetic algorithm in control of automatically developing an OS. The working name I have for it is LifeOS. The idea is to make an OS for the machine's use that meets the criterion for life.
<IDMclean>
In order for me to adequately design the algorithm for such a thing, I need to know what the machine can do, so I can specify the genomic representation of the OS to match the interface (I/O, language, networking) of the computer.
<IDMclean>
Any idea where I would look to learn about BIOS design? Or would that be covered by LDD3?
<kristianpaul>
uboot or milkymist bios could help
<kristianpaul>
pmon is other bios
<kristianpaul>
bios/bootloader
<kristianpaul>
thats other discussion
<kristianpaul>
back to work
<IDMclean>
Ornotermes, eventually I do plan on learning how to make CPUs and GPUs. I have a sketch for a processor architecture that I want to eventually implement. Hopefully, by the time I get to the place where I could implement it, we'll have first or second generation consumer grade quantum processors.
<IDMclean>
Thank you, kristianpaul.
<kristianpaul>
quantum processors will ne nice
<IDMclean>
Especially their oracle abilities.
<methril_work>
kristianpaul: where are you testing milkymist ? Do you have a FPGA board?
<kristianpaul>
methril_work: i will, so far i'm using qemu
<kristianpaul>
and hopefully icarus verilog soon*
<kristianpaul>
methril_work: i bought an avnet spartan-3
<methril_work>
kristianpaul: uff!! so expensive to bough any electronic device done outside at the country where i live:(
<kristianpaul>
methril_work: it is 49usd
<kristianpaul>
is cheapest i can find
<kristianpaul>
methril_work: where you live btw?
<kristianpaul>
i'm located in colombia btw
<methril_work>
well. if you have to pay 60% of import taxes and some others ... it gives expensive
<methril_work>
i´m living right now in Brazil
<methril_work>
but i´m spanish
<kristianpaul>
but is cheaper thta buy fpga to local dealers
<methril_work>
not here
<kristianpaul>
ocuh
<kristianpaul>
hax what?
<kristianpaul>
ops
<IDMclean>
How much for a Milkymist?
<gbraad>
milkymist is not for sale yet.
<gbraad>
also not known when it will be as currently only bare pcb for prototyping exist
<IDMclean>
What's the entry point for system-on-a-chip and pcb design?
<IDMclean>
I've been thinking about acquiring an Arduino to learn more about hardware.
<Ornotermes>
IDMclean: another option is getting a AVR-programmer and use any avr8-chips
<IDMclean>
Ornotermes, what's the comparative differences?
<IDMclean>
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I appreciate the critiques and recommendations.
<IDMclean>
Enjoy. ^_^
<Ornotermes>
IDMclean: you get more control over the hardware (making your own PCBs, and components of your choice). Also you cna wite code in many languages. Cheaper since you can skip components you dont need
<Ornotermes>
wejp: how do the keyboard on ben feel compared to pandora?
<wejp>
the ben's keyboard has buttons with a click, while the buttons of the pandora have not such a strong click but are more soft
<methril_work>
nice
<wejp>
it is a little easier to type on the pandora's keyboard, because the buttons are a little more separated, but the ben's keyboard is okay too, once one get used to it
<methril_work>
and the power of the pandora compared to the Ben?
<Ornotermes>
wejp: that sounds nice :)
<wejp>
you mean power as in cpu power or as in battery power? ;)
<wejp>
as for the cpu, the pandora's cpu is very fast, the xfce desktop runs really nicely on it
<wejp>
as for the battery, the battery life is really amazing, with wlan turned on all the time it lasts almost 10 hours
<zear>
wejp, lucky bastard you got all of the cool consoles ;)
<wejp>
zear, hehe ;)
<zear>
though on the other hand i only lack two from that picture ;)
<wejp>
which ones? ;)
<zear>
pandora and a330
<wejp>
:)
<wejp>
i had to pay money for my pandora, i did not get it for free ;|
<zear>
well, i had to pay for all of my toys ;)
<zear>
including the nn ;P
<wejp>
i got my a330 for free :)
<wejp>
paid for the a320 and gp2x though
<zear>
yeah, i was told i'm getting one, but i guess things changed as i didn't get it in the end :P
<wejp>
oh :(
<wejp>
but it is noth that different from the a320 anyways, so you are not missing all that much ;)
<zear>
but hearing from stephanie that her unit died after a couple of days, maybe that's for the better someone saved the money ;)
<wejp>
oh, mine didn't die yet, but i did not have the time to play with it that much yet either
<zear>
btw wejp if you like gmu on handhelds with keyboards, i can port it to jornada 720 ;)
<wejp>
oh, what kind of device is the jornada 720?
<zear>
a bigger cousin of the nanonote ;)
<wejp>
ah :D
<wejp>
ok, i've googled the device :D
<wejp>
incredible how much money people pay for getting a pandora :O
<Ornotermes>
by the way, is there any space in ben for another PCB?
<tuxbrain>
wejp: you know where is the shippment order list?
<tuxbrain>
I want to know what numer I am
<tuxbrain>
I also want my pandora!!!
<tuxbrain>
Ornotermes: in addition to the one it has?
<Ornotermes>
tuxbrain: yes
<tuxbrain>
ecual size than existing no, a smoller one with very thin components maybe, I succesfully attacha a 8 pin connector under the speaker, I have to "dremelize" part of the plastic but it fits you can the pictures here
<Ornotermes>
too bad the base dont have any space in front of the battery
<Ornotermes>
it would have been a nice plave to put a tiny pcb
<sdschulze>
[probably FAQ]: How supported is Debian on the NanoNote?  I flashed the image from pyneo, but most things were not really running.
<sdschulze>
Is there any information on how they did the porting?  Did they just take the existing debian-mips port or is there anything non-trivial?
<emdete>
sdschulze: what does "most things were not really running." mean for u?
<sdschulze>
Shift-key was flawed for some chars, unable to load modules => no sound, only one tty working, etc.
<sdschulze>
don't recall everything right now
<sdschulze>
X ran, but the keymap was broken.
<nebajoth>
sdschulze
<nebajoth>
the pyneo image is crippled
<sdschulze>
I realized. :)))
<nebajoth>
use the one linked to from tuxbrain's tutorial
<sdschulze>
and I couldn't add one because ubifs is so fragmented and Linux doesn't like that...
<nebajoth>
but otherwise, I'm using my NN pretty often
<nebajoth>
then use a microsd card
<nebajoth>
mkswap /dev/mmcblk0p1
<nebajoth>
swapon /dev/mmcblk0p1
<nebajoth>
boom
<sdschulze>
OK
<sdschulze>
(I was actually surprised how much I could even do without swap...)
<wejp>
tuxbrain, there is no publich list, at least i'm not aware of one, but you can roughly estimate when your will be shipping, depending on when you've ordered yours. i think those who have recevied their device already all have ordered at the very first day when preorders started
<nebajoth>
oh, sound also doesn't work out of the box
<nebajoth>
but its pretty easy to get going
<nebajoth>
and the speaker is LOUD
<sdschulze>
nebajoth: as long as loading modules works...
<tuxbrain>
wejp It was some time ago than I don't remember if I do on the first day, or first week, or first decade
<nebajoth>
yep, sdschulze
<tuxbrain>
when you ordered yours
<wejp>
hehe, okay ^^
<nebajoth>
that's what I meant by "easy fix" :P
<sdschulze>
BTW, what's the best way to choose a smaller console font, so I can have at least 72 chars or semthing like that...
<nebajoth>
there's a mailing list thread about that
<sdschulze>
nebajoth: Is there any documentation about how that other image was made?
<nebajoth>
except for an off the cuff statement or two on the pyneo site
<sdschulze>
nebajoth: I mean the mister-muffin.de one.
<nebajoth>
I haven't any idea
<nebajoth>
ask tuxbrain
<tuxbrain>
ask pineo :P
<tuxbrain>
I think emdete is hanging here time to time
<tuxbrain>
wejp: I have ordered mine on 01-10-2008
<wejp>
that's one day after preorders started
<sdschulze>
tuxbrain: So the mister-muffin.de one is a fixed pyneo.org image?
<tuxbrain>
sdschulze: I think is a prove of concept to build a more complete one but you sould better ask to pyneo about it, I just download it and check that it works
<tuxbrain>
wejp:so..... why I don't have a pandora at my hand and this moment, hum? :P, just joking (sigh) If I have waited for .... what now... a year and 8 months? I can wait a couple of weeks more... or two months :P
<wejp>
hehe, yeah, i guess it shouldn't take too long for you anymore, but otoh who knows? ;)
<sdschulze>
So there is no "official" Debian-on-Nanonote project?
<nebajoth>
no
<nebajoth>
it turns the NN into a general purpose computer
<nebajoth>
which comes with certain patent endangering potentials
<nebajoth>
the management of the project are leery of trolls
<nebajoth>
so they've explicitly disabled support for proprietary codecs in their tailored openwrt image
<nebajoth>
and discourage the use of any firmware that might re-enable it
<nebajoth>
which debian certainly does
<nebajoth>
I personally am not affiliated with the project beyond participation in the mailing list
<nebajoth>
I use debian, and like it
<tuxbrain>
talking abour it, nebajoth is the NN-Deb site to forward the tuxbrain articles there?
<nebajoth>
not yet, tuxbrain
<nebajoth>
have been a little short on time
<nebajoth>
I'll get something up this weekend by the latest
<tuxbrain>
ok just ping me
<tuxbrain>
and thanks a lot :)
<nebajoth>
my pleasure
<tuxbrain>
I'm really piss off on that situation, I'm a debian lover, supporter and advocate so you can understand how painful is to me to banish my own created content from my own site... man it hurts just thinking aboutn it :(
<nebajoth>
debian users are usually the ones wagging their fingers at other distros
<nebajoth>
for including things like proprietary codec support by default
<nebajoth>
I find it really ironic that its too proprietary for us
<sdschulze>
gNewSense?
<nebajoth>
could do
<sdschulze>
Would that remove patent problems?
<tuxbrain>
yeah, if it has the non-free tag... why don't they include those patent stuff there?
<nebajoth>
probably
<nebajoth>
gnewsense has a lot of emphasis on desktop
<nebajoth>
and
<nebajoth>
it looks like its based on ubuntu?
<nebajoth>
ubuntu doesn't have a mips port
<tuxbrain>
faq sais is based on debian
<nebajoth>
k
<tuxbrain>
sorry this was 3.0
<tuxbrain>
actual one 2.3 is based on Ubuntu
<tuxbrain>
sh%&t
<sdschulze>
tuxbrain: because it's not non-free in the sense of copyright
<nebajoth>
I'm instantiating a community website dedicated to Debian on the NN, sdschulze
<nebajoth>
I just haven't had time to put it up
<nebajoth>
work has been a bit busy
<nebajoth>
I've only been procrastinating for two days though
<nebajoth>
this is a fairly recent development
<tuxbrain>
sdschulze: so in what sense? money?
<nebajoth>
tuxbrain is just impatient to get his stuff online :P
<tuxbrain>
heehehe :) yeah you start to knowing me
<sdschulze>
tuxbrain: Things like LAME are free software in the sense that they are under a free copyright license.
<tuxbrain>
sdschulze: ok thanks :)
<xdpirate>
lame and libmpg123 are free software but mp3 patent holders don't like them very much
<nebajoth>
tuxbrain, sdschulze: the lines of code for LAME might be free
<nebajoth>
but yes
<nebajoth>
what xdpirate said
<nebajoth>
the codec itself requires licensing
<xdpirate>
which sucks
<nebajoth>
it does.
<xdpirate>
meh, guess i'll have to mass convert all my music to ogg or flac then
<sdschulze>
tuxbrain: I assume the Debian migration is already in progress.
<nebajoth>
there do seem to be a lot of debian users
<xdpirate>
quick question: is it possible to connect the nn as a mass storage device, so i can transfer files without being close to a linux computer? i usually don't drag my pc with me when on vacation etc :P
<xdpirate>
windows pcs are everywhere, and connecting as a mass storage device would simplify putting stuff on it when not having access to a linux pc
<urandom_>
well most pcs have a sd cardreader or you can take one with you
<nebajoth>
"most"?
<nebajoth>
I've hardly ever seen an sd cardreader on a workstation
<nebajoth>
laptops more often
<xdpirate>
urandom_, yeah, that's true, but can you connect so you get access to the internal nand memory?
<sdschulze>
xdpirate: How can you read the ubifs from a Windows PC?
<xdpirate>
ah
<xdpirate>
true
<xdpirate>
i don't actually have my nanonote yet
<xdpirate>
still in the mail
<urandom_>
nebajoth newer pcs have them, well maybe most was too much
<mth>
even if the PC can read the file system, it's not possible to access it at the sector level from both the PC and the device
<xdpirate>
anyone have more feature requests for dex before it's released? (must be doable in a terminal as of now)
<mth>
so you'd have to put the device in a special mode where it does not run its normal applications
<mth>
is it an option to run Samba on the NN?
<urandom_>
i hope the Ya will get two mircosd slots instead of NAND
<xdpirate>
samba would be sweet, but doesn't windows generally have problems with usb networking?
<mth>
I don't know, I don't have Windows anymore
<mth>
on the Mac the Dingoo's ethernet over USB works fine without drivers
<sdschulze>
tuxbrain, nebajoth: It seems like even gNewSense includes patent-covered codecs, though.
<urandom_>
xdpirate what about installing linux on a pendrive or using a live cd?
<xdpirate>
meh, i'll just install ubuntu on my old laptop and bring that, lol
<mth>
you can always use winscp for transferring files, but I don't know if you need drivers as well
<nebajoth>
tuxbrain: what about nanohack.net?
<tuxbrain>
xdpirate: techically posible also some trys but seems there is some DMA stuff to beat on kernel to make it working
<tuxbrain>
nebajoth: not bad but depending on what your intentions are if is for create a debian community nanodeb.net is better, if is for more generical nanonote "dirty" hacks not having space on official wiky due  legal materrs then nanohack.org is best
<sdschulze>
nebajoth: What do you have in your sources.list?
<nebajoth>
I want to get the fedora mips port working on the NN
<nebajoth>
and possibly gentoo later on
<nebajoth>
I don't really want to make it debian specific
<nebajoth>
although obviously that's our first concern righ tnow
<tuxbrain>
with that goals in mind then nanohack.org fits better
<sdschulze>
nebajoth: So unlike for openwrt, where there is really a fork, it's just using the standard port?
<nebajoth>
nanonote is mipsel
<nebajoth>
pretty much
<nebajoth>
re: standard port
<nebajoth>
needs custom kernel
<nebajoth>
and xboot
<nebajoth>
but otherwise its a pretty standard debian
<sdschulze>
OK, yeah
<nebajoth>
anybody else got an opinion on nanohack.net/org?
<nebajoth>
good?  bad?
<sdschulze>
nanohacks.org?
<nebajoth>
that could be good
<sdschulze>
if you want to pay for a domain name
<sdschulze>
You could also host at Sourceforge or somewhere.
<nebajoth>
I don't mind forking over $10
<tuxbrain>
yes nanohacks sounds better
<nebajoth>
.net or .org?
<urandom_>
.org
<nebajoth>
even though nanohacks.net is alliteration?
<urandom_>
well i dont really care, it just came first on my mind
<xdpirate>
i'm in the process of preparing my 8 gb sd-card for when the nanonote arrives
<xdpirate>
how should i format it?
<urandom_>
ext2 if you want debian on it
<xdpirate>
and what does openwrt support?
<xdpirate>
i'd like fat32 if possible, so i can use both on my windows and my linux pcs
<nebajoth>
I hope you mean micro-sd card
<xdpirate>
of course
<urandom_>
i think is used one card with fat32 on the ben with openwrt
<nebajoth>
:P
<xdpirate>
micro-sdhc
<xdpirate>
alright, fat 32 it is then
<xdpirate>
does blocksize matter?
<urandom_>
my cards came preformated with fat32 so dont know
<xdpirate>
ah kk
<Skuerzo>
could someone help me find why my NN only gets icmp traffic on NAT?
<FrankBlues>
waves
<FrankBlues>
Okay, are binaries compatible between debian and openwrt?
<FrankBlues>
And while I'm there, has anyone gotten the debian SD card to work?
<lars_>
lekernel: i found out that you were in hamburg recenlty
<lekernel>
indeed
<lars_>
lots of milkymist stickers in the basement room
<lekernel>
haha
<lekernel>
i'm not the only one putting them :)
<lekernel>
but yes, I was in Hamburg
<mth>
FrankBlues: in general, my experience is that there is no binary compatibility between Linux distros unless you link all libs statically
<FrankBlues>
Flargh.
<mth>
zear's ports run on both Dingoo and NanoNote because of static linking
<FrankBlues>
I've got debian on an SD card booted, and I'd love to be able to run the stuff that's on my nanonote's openwrt partitions...
<mth>
but it does increase the binary size
<FrankBlues>
(or at least access it...)
<mth>
ah, but you could use chroot
<FrankBlues>
So zear's stuff should run under debian?
<mth>
I think it would
<FrankBlues>
So that makes it an issue of just mounting filesystems...
<mth>
with chroot you'd be using both the libs and the executables of the other distro, only keeping the foreign kernel
<FrankBlues>
Thanks mth, I'll have to look into that when I have a minute, right now I have to work on dinner... heh...
<nebajoth>
yes hello
<tuxbrain>
hi nebajoth
<nebajoth>
hello tuxbrain
<nebajoth>
I registered nanohacks.org earlier
<tuxbrain>
:), you need hosting?
<nebajoth>
nope
<nebajoth>
I'm a sysadmin for an ISP that does hosting
<nebajoth>
I'm putting it on one of our servers
<tuxbrain>
heheehehe :)
<tuxbrain>
ok I just have one debian dedicated server
<nebajoth>
is it your nanonote? :D
<tuxbrain>
hehehehe , a little bigger than that, but hey I have a lot of NN maybe I can do a nanoserver farm
<nebajoth>
I dare you
<nebajoth>
to beowulf cluster 100 NNs
<nebajoth>
into a crazy server farm
<Ornotermes>
tuxbrain: define "a lot" :P
<nebajoth>
he sells them
<zxcvb>
whether nanonote has USB host
<Ornotermes>
oh
<tuxbrain>
The day I sell 1000 nanos(whatever version)/month for tree consecutive months I will reserve 100 just for doing that, It is written it should be
<zxcvb>
but at qi hardware website there is no mention of it in the technical specs at http://sharism.cc/specs/
<zxcvb>
okay, fine
<tuxbrain>
at least until Ya nanonote hits the real world
<nebajoth>
there is a usb host controller in the JZ4740 chipset, I believe
<nebajoth>
but there's nothing connected to it
<nebajoth>
afaik
<zxcvb>
i remember there was lots of request for usb host feature from developers on the mailing list. Whether it got included in the ROADMAP atleast
<nebajoth>
yes, usb host would be epic.
<nebajoth>
usb host + wifi + backlit keys = my wishlist
<zxcvb>
without it many of embedded app developers with plans for analog devices connecting to it ARE HANDICAPPED today
<nebajoth>
analog devices?
<nebajoth>
such as?
<nebajoth>
tuxbrain got the NN talking to an arduino
<Skuerzo>
could anybody help me find why my NN only gets ICMP traffic through NAT?
<zxcvb>
like ecg signals or oxymeters taking analog signals from brain etc and then by A2D convertors converting them and sending them to nanonote for further processing on the digital data. No need for developing a custom digital circuit with embedded source code on say ARM/Atmega etc chipset
<tuxbrain>
most modules for embedded devices out there have an UART interface more than USB one, and BNN has an UART interfece
<mth>
Skuerzo: what device / OS does the NAT?
<Skuerzo>
my laptop with Gentoo, with iptables set to ACCEPT all
<max_posedon>
Skuerzo, are you sure that you correctly configured nat itself?
<mth>
ACCEPT on the forward chain, I assume?
<zxcvb>
Just after A2D one can use this device for digital processing with normal PC like programming but with embedded device like light wieght and portability
<mth>
hardware I2C can only use two specific pins, software I2C can use any two GPIO pins
<max_posedon>
Skuerzo, may be this will help you
<Skuerzo>
max_posedon i'll try it, thanks in advance
<max_posedon>
Skuerzo, and btw, gentoo could works on BenNN
<Skuerzo>
I still have to change ips, my NN is running Debian atm
<max_posedon>
(at least I get cross compiled glibc and uclibc basic systems)
<wolfspraul>
zxcvb: that linux.com arti> Jahre. Er hat zwar auch keinen USB-Hostmode, aber es gibt eine Dockingstation,
<wolfspraul>
> die das hat. Und es gibt unglaublich viel Software für das Ding. Ich habe
<wolfspraul>
(sorry)
<mth>
you can filter by input or output interface instead of IP address, if the IP address is not constant
<wolfspraul>
zxcvb: that linux.com article stands out with by far the most mistakes in any press coverage NanoNote had
<Ornotermes>
mth: yeah, i know, and as far as i can see those are used by keyboard, there for i wonder if someone managed to use them by modifing hardware and/or software
<wolfspraul>
we tried to correct it in many ways, before the article was published (!) and after, but oh well
<wolfspraul>
they have their 'working style'
<zxcvb>
wolfsprual: :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah I can show you my email archives, where I am begging them to reply, call me, etc. along with the corrections, but no
<wolfspraul>
machine was moving forward
<wolfspraul>
the article is bad!
<wolfspraul>
long story short
<mth>
Ornotermes: the software I2C driver seems to work fine though, is there any particular reason you want to use the hardware I2C driver?
<zxcvb>
thanx, i was thinking of purchasing 4-5 units after reading this article(regarding usb host) . But now i will wait
<Ornotermes>
mth: not really, but don't want to bit bang if i don't have to
<wolfspraul>
zxcvb: he, fair enough. It's good that we avoided that disappointment.
<wolfspraul>
of course I would still encourage you to buy one to start playing with the platform
<mth>
Ornotermes: Linux does the bit banging for you, in the i2c-gpio driver
<wolfspraul>
for Ya, the successor, the most likely thing right now is Ben + more memory + usb host (on-the-go) + RF
<wolfspraul>
for the RF, it could be Wi-Fi, or an ISM RF (ism = industrial scientific medial)
<zxcvb>
but without that usb host, how do you even put usb pen drives on nanonote?
<zxcvb>
i mean thats very basic
<wolfspraul>
there is a small chance we will get GPS included as well, but we have to be very careful that we are not aiming for too much with the Ya, and in the end come out with a crappy device
<Ornotermes>
mth: shure, but its still bitbanging... and as i said, i avoid that as much as i can
<wolfspraul>
I do agree with people who want a backlit keyboard like nebajoth. We already talked to the keyboard factory about it, we'll see.
<urandom_>
GPS would be really awesome i would it even prefer to wi-fi!
<mth>
Ornotermes: well, if the keyboard is connected to the I2C GPIO ports, then soldering those connections to different pins is the only way to use the hardware I2C support, I think
<wolfspraul>
zxcvb: of course it's basic. That's the beauty of it. We cannot do more than this right now, and many people are currently working on bringing this 'basic' hardware to its full potential.
<tuxbrain>
urandom_: me too, even if it has also some kind of slow-fi :)
<wolfspraul>
urandom_: ah, hi there. I wanted to say thanks for the wiki translations into German you did. Very appreciated!
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: both wi-fi and slowfi is also an option
<wolfspraul>
but we have to be really careful
<mth>
Ornotermes: there is no way in the JZ SoC to select different pins for the hardware I2C, if that's what you wanted to know
<wolfspraul>
I will not do another freerunner prematurely
<tuxbrain>
uff not too much power draining?
<wolfspraul>
I need several years for that, and people have to go along and help (with sales and hacking). Then we can make it.
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: well you can turn on/off everything separately if it's done well
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, most likely that won't happen
<zxcvb>
wolfspraul: thumbs up for endeavour of u ppl to make it realize its full potential
<wolfspraul>
the Ben is a beautiful piece of hardware, I think everybody agrees
<zxcvb>
wolfspraul: ya
<Ornotermes>
mth: i was tinking och some kind och multiplexing, but it would probalby not be a very good idea either
<wolfspraul>
of course it's limited, we try to communicate the hardware specs as clearly as possible (linux.com was the worst offender).
<wolfspraul>
but the hardware it is, it's rock stable.
<mth>
Ornotermes: you'd have to share one resource between two unrelated drivers then; it would make a bit of a mess of the kernel I think
<wolfspraul>
that was one of the key things I learnt from my prior job at Openmoko. If we want to have a basis for free software, which develops slowly (like good cheese or wine :-)), then we must have stable hardware to work on.
<wolfspraul>
if the hardware is also a big construction site, everybody will loose
<wolfspraul>
and that's what we are executing now
<wolfspraul>
rock solid hardware, slowly better and better free software emerges
<zxcvb>
wolfspraul: i agree
<zxcvb>
but still i agree with nejaboth too (his statement usb host + wifi + backlit keys = my wishlist  )
<wolfspraul>
good, we are all roughly on the same page
<zxcvb>
:)
<wolfspraul>
just please understand this is essentially a self-funded community project
<wolfspraul>
and that's what keeps it free
<wolfspraul>
so I will not trade that in
<wolfspraul>
usb-host is easy
<wolfspraul>
backlit keys is easy on the software side, but a lot of leg-work with vendors
<wolfspraul>
wifi is a best
<wolfspraul>
beast
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<Ornotermes>
mth: i was thining controling i2c-pullups could be controled by a fet connected to a gpio, and when i2c is reqested it turns off the keyboard raises pullups and do some stuff then turns i2c and pullups off and starts the keyboard again
<zxcvb>
thanx from heart for the statement (that usb-host is easy)
<wolfspraul>
we are working on it
<tuxbrain>
again to not dissapoint anyone is 1.1 USB not 2.0 USB
<wolfspraul>
oh yeah, nobody ask for USB 3.0 and so please
<tuxbrain>
wireless usb :P
<Ornotermes>
mth: but then i could probably use bitbanged drivers as well
<wolfspraul>
btw, wi-fi in ben nanonote works today
<wolfspraul>
sometimes forgotten
<wolfspraul>
but the microSD card it is using (Spectec SDW-823) is 'expensive', so people are not crazy about that either
<zxcvb>
ya once usb host comes in then addon wireless usb controllers will be easy to plugin by us only, no need to even support on core mother board (say)
<wolfspraul>
plus not much more money will be invested into it so it may disappear from the market soon
<Ornotermes>
wolfspraul: i was thinking of connecting a serial radio modem to a ben when i buy one (and use slip) :)
<max_posedon>
usb device 2.0, better that usb-host+device 1.1, thats what I dislike in Freerunner
<urandom_>
is still dreaming of some kind of trackpoint for the Yi :P
<wolfspraul>
I'm dreaming about better software for the Ben.
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
that's the only thing that gives me a remote chance of moving a few more units, and that's the only thing that will make Ya happen.
<wolfspraul>
it's good pressure
<tuxbrain>
is just dreaming
<wolfspraul>
build a business, find customers, listen
<nebajoth>
haha yes
<nebajoth>
sdw-823 is 'expensive'
<nebajoth>
because its the same price as the whole NN
<tuxbrain>
good night guys don't be to vervose , there are people willing to sleep here :PÂ Â see ya
<nebajoth>
I'd accept bluetooth + a second unit with bluetooth and wifi
<nebajoth>
night tuxbrain
<wolfspraul>
the company that did the SDW-823 went bankrupt over the many millions they invested in making this beautiful technology happen
<nebajoth>
wolfspraul: what do you mean by "better software"?
<wolfspraul>
not Spectec, but KeyStream
<wolfspraul>
it's easy to lean back and complain about 'expensive', in the end we will all buy 99 USD iPads and iPhones
<wolfspraul>
hardware economics are really interesting
<wolfspraul>
nebajoth: 'better software', lots of things. For me the most important is that when I sell a unit, the out-of-the-box experience is great.
<nebajoth>
I don't buy apple crap
<wolfspraul>
2 GB NAND packed full with great sw and content. fast gui. music player (ogg), video player, whatever you imagine
<nebajoth>
and work pays for my blackberry
<urandom_>
someone bought a pandora for 1800$ or so: thats expensive
<wolfspraul>
that's what I need to sell more Ben = finance Ya, etc.
<wolfspraul>
then better software can also be Debian, JLiMe, Fedora
<nebajoth>
what on earth is KLiMe
<nebajoth>
er
<nebajoth>
JLiMe
<wolfspraul>
better console apps (for me personally)
<nebajoth>
although I'm finding even curses apps are usually too wide for the NN screen
<urandom_>
we already have a great music player, just need a video player and offline wiki
<wolfspraul>
sure, but you asked me what I mean with 'better software', so first for me it's software that helps me sell units
<wolfspraul>
then second it's what I want myself on the BNN
<nebajoth>
hell, catting logfiles is a pain
<wolfspraul>
urandom_: yes! :-)
<nebajoth>
I don't see the offline wiki thing
<nebajoth>
the usefulness I mean
<wolfspraul>
how about dictionary?
<nebajoth>
who cares about dictionaries, though?
<nebajoth>
nobody in their right mind cares about dictionaries
<nebajoth>
they just go to the nearest pc
<nebajoth>
and use google
<Ornotermes>
hmm, a serial bluetooth module might be a good alternative to get internet in the ben
<urandom_>
i just hope love (or ulove) really gets ported to nanonote, that is all that is needed to make me happy
<max_posedon>
nebajoth, people sometimes offline, I like my wikireaders, in bus in long travels
<nebajoth>
wikireaders I understand
<nebajoth>
ish
<nebajoth>
dictionaries I don't
<nebajoth>
is there enough space to capture wikipedia?
<nebajoth>
in 2G?
<nebajoth>
wouldn't that make a better add-on sd card?
<max_posedon>
its sometimes nice, when you aboard
<nebajoth>
sell wikipedia on a microsd
<max_posedon>
and gprs in rouming very expensive to use
<tuxbrain_away>
urandom_: all you need is love....?.... :D:D sorry I can stand good night
<nebajoth>
LURKER
<nebajoth>
SPY
<nebajoth>
SPANISH FLY ON TEH WALL
<urandom_>
lol yeah all i need is love
<nebajoth>
JLiMe looks interesting enough, but I doubt it has a terrible large audience
<urandom_>
nebajoth people buy electronic dictionarys and they cost sometimes more than a nononote
<Ornotermes>
how does navigation in for example GTK work on Ben?
<urandom_>
having a GOOD dictionary for the ben would really be a killer app
<max_posedon>
dictionary with pronounces - defenetly
<max_posedon>
s/pronounces/sounds for most common words/
<urandom_>
stardict is already good for my needs but i think needs some cleanup and nicer look and pronounces if possible
<nebajoth>
I don't see it
<nebajoth>
maybe I'm just too surrounded by computers
<nebajoth>
or have too impeccable spelling :P
<nebajoth>
its the best damned OGG player I've ever had
<nebajoth>
and FLAC player
<nebajoth>
in fact
<nebajoth>
FLAC sounds amazing in my car
<nebajoth>
from the mini out
<nebajoth>
I am using it as a little `remind` box too
<nebajoth>
I used vim to write a python script to check battery levels
<nebajoth>
ON the NN, in the back seat of a truck on the way home from the cottage
<nebajoth>
which was fun
<nebajoth>
and also where I discovered that dusk means you can't see the red shift characters anymore
<nebajoth>
although you can continue to see the others for a while
<nebajoth>
if we CAN'T get backlighting on the Ya, we should at least change the colour from red to something more visible in low light
<Ornotermes>
if it is not possible to get back light, why not put one or two white led in the screen part, just like som thinkpads
<urandom_>
or sell it with a bigger and brighter screen :P
<max_posedon>
what about use NN, and learn red keys in 5-10 days?)
<nebajoth>
wolfspraul: ping
<wolfspraul>
pong
<wolfspraul>
just looking into an Indefero bug (projects.qi-hardware.com)
<wolfspraul>
seems when the first name is blank, it becomes '---' or so, and then the confirmation mails are not sent out
<wolfspraul>
something like that, still looking
<wolfspraul>
I would like to get some more action into the projects server, but first it needs to work really well
<wolfspraul>
I'm very happy with Indefero actually
<mth>
nebajoth: maybe some kind of fluorescent paint?
<mth>
not sure if biological fluorescent dyes last long enough though
<mth>
radioactive ones do, but then you have to be very careful about the conditions in the factory
<mth>
maybe just highly reflective paint is enough, since the LCD backlight is a strong light source
<nebajoth>
mth: i had the same idea
<nebajoth>
the unit is already a clamshell
<nebajoth>
put an LED or two in the side with the screen
<nebajoth>
fold the thing in half when the keys need to glow more
<nebajoth>
resume work
<nebajoth>
wolfspraul: projects server?
<nebajoth>
also
<nebajoth>
I registered nanohacks.org
<nebajoth>
I just installed buddypress
<nebajoth>
going to find a decent theme
<mth>
on my laptop, I actually use the bumps on F and J to type in the dark, instead of activating the key backlight
<nebajoth>
then customize it
<mth>
but not everyone can type blindly, especially on a non-standard keyboard
<nebajoth>
should put braille on all the letters :P
<wolfspraul>
nanohacks - nice
<wolfspraul>
is that where you plan to host the Debian stuff (replying to your mail still on my list...)
<mth>
braille keys + speech synthesis might be useful for blind people though
<nebajoth>
wolfspraul: yes.
<nebajoth>
tuxbrain and urandom_ helped me decide on the name
<nebajoth>
we were going to go with nanodeb at first
<nebajoth>
but I want it to be broader than debian
<wolfspraul>
nanohacks is cool
<nebajoth>
I want to include fedora and gentoo later
<wolfspraul>
great
<nebajoth>
did you meet up with the fedora mips project guys?
<wolfspraul>
lunch today I think
<nebajoth>
aha
<wolfspraul>
but I will do this slowly
<nebajoth>
I sent them an email
<wolfspraul>
first need to get to know gbraad
<nebajoth>
yeah, he's the one that replied
<wolfspraul>
he's on the channel actually
<nebajoth>
:O
<nebajoth>
oh eah
<nebajoth>
yeah
<nebajoth>
gbraad hello :P
<wolfspraul>
don't expect quick results there
<nebajoth>
that's what he said
<nebajoth>
that's fine
<nebajoth>
I'm not impatient
<wolfspraul>
32 MB is low, not sure fedora can target this today. they should, but we see.
<max_posedon>
nebajoth, (gentoo) I think it won't be hard, I just successfully cross compiled uclibc and glibc for mips on gentoo (for uclibc few hacks requeired)
<wolfspraul>
we have some devel boards with 64 MB
<nebajoth>
max_posedon: can you document what you're doing?
<nebajoth>
I'd like to put it on nanohacks
<wolfspraul>
need to talk to gbraad first to understand the bigger picture
<max_posedon>
gentoo's out-of-box support is good enough (for glibc configuration mainly)
<nebajoth>
max_posedon: that's what I suspected
<nebajoth>
I was a gentoo user for 5 years
<nebajoth>
before ubuntu coaxed me away
<Ornotermes>
wolfspraul: could a ben board work with a 64 or even 128MB RAM chip?
<gbraad>
hello
<max_posedon>
nebajoth, there is some cross compilation issues, but many of them was fixed during openmoko-stuff, and some even before. cross compilation is defently "another story" and uclibc is "another story" in square)
<wolfspraul>
Ornotermes: 64 mb yes, we built such boards for small runs
<wolfspraul>
gbraad: are we on track for lunch today?
<FrankBlues>
Flargh... debian is being molasses like on the nn...
<gbraad>
it seems so. I will be in caochangdi around 12
<wolfspraul>
ok
<max_posedon>
nebajoth, I'll prepare docs as soon as I'll successfully run vim there.
<gbraad>
unfamiliar to the place, so bear with me
<nebajoth>
thanks max_posedon
<nebajoth>
FrankBlues: have you got swap space?
<FrankBlues>
Yeah... same amount as in the sd howto.
<gbraad>
see the messages about the fedora porting
<gbraad>
have recevied about 5 emails about us having to target the nanonote
<nebajoth>
haha
<gbraad>
32mb is really small
<nebajoth>
nobody said "have to"
<nebajoth>
well
<nebajoth>
I didn't
<gbraad>
LOL
<gbraad>
but it is a potential target
<gbraad>
as the alpha 400 is also ingenic based
<nebajoth>
and that IS a target?
<gbraad>
not yet
<gbraad>
target now is Loongson
<gbraad>
and we gradually move to other MIPS based processors
<gbraad>
and yes, Ingenic is one of them in the longrun
<FrankBlues>
nebajoth: 65528 total swap
<gbraad>
although 32mb poses a big hurdle
<gbraad>
we will first create a mini fedora (base system with rpm)
<gbraad>
and see what will come from that
<nebajoth>
perhaps it is more realistic to target the Ya
<nebajoth>
FrankBlues: what are you running?
<FrankBlues>
Debian Sid from a 1gb sdcard.
<gbraad>
Ya?
<wolfspraul>
gbraad: Ya NanoNote is the successor of Ben NanoNote
<nebajoth>
was it moving like molasses during the apt-get? :P
<FrankBlues>
Yeah, I did an apt-get update then upgrade, and the config parts were molasses-like
<FrankBlues>
Then again, I should probably expect that.
<FrankBlues>
I need to go through the rc files and see what I can pare down (unused gettys, etc...)
<nebajoth>
definitely expect that
<nebajoth>
apt-get is pretty demanding on it
<nebajoth>
aptitude won't even run for me
<nebajoth>
it chokes
<urandom_>
there is a reason why openwrt is using opkg instead of apt-get :P
<nebajoth>
for sure
<nebajoth>
but opkg doesn't have 60 000 packages :P
<nebajoth>
and it runs fine
<nebajoth>
apt-get works great, as long as you have swapspace for it
<nebajoth>
you just have to leave the ben alone for a few minutes
<nebajoth>
which seems reasonable
<FrankBlues>
Yeah...
<FrankBlues>
I'm wondering if I should give jlime a shot on the nn
<nebajoth>
if you do
<nebajoth>
document it
<nebajoth>
I'll put it on nanohacks.org
<nebajoth>
its still a skeleton
<nebajoth>
I don't feel like theming it tonight
<Ornotermes>
wolfspraul: it would be neat if you freed more GPIO in future versions, you could probably free a bunch of io by using shift registers and/or mux/demux-chips
<nebajoth>
but I should have something solid up by the weekend
<FrankBlues>
Arrgh! "mount: unknown filesystem type 'ubifs'"
<nebajoth>
:O
<mth>
can you modprobe it?
<FrankBlues>
Hang on, I'm in the middle of another apt wait.
<nebajoth>
haha
<nebajoth>
apt-wait install doom2
<FrankBlues>
FATAL: Could not load /lib/modules/2.6.32.10/modules.dep: No such file or directory
<FrankBlues>
o_O
<nebajoth>
ls -lh /lib/modules
<FrankBlues>
"total 0"
<nebajoth>
apt-get install linux-headers
<FrankBlues>
monolithic kernel perhaps.
<nebajoth>
hm I was thinking wrong path
<nebajoth>
soz
<FrankBlues>
apt-get install sandwich
<FrankBlues>
while waiting.
<nebajoth>
You require root permissions.
<FrankBlues>
I am root.
<nebajoth>
Installing sandwich to /dev/mouth.
<mth>
apt-get install linux-modules, I think
<FrankBlues>
It wants me to be explicit for header install.
<xdpirate>
rofl
<xdpirate>
sandwich --deliciousness 100
<FrankBlues>
This feels like the commodore 64 in terms of load time...
<FrankBlues>
flargh - no linux-modules pacakge.
<mth>
maybe it's called linux-modules-2.6.32 or something