<judofyr>
whitequark: didn't get a chance to look at other 2.0 fixes
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<whitequark>
judofyr: 'k
<whitequark>
I'm looking into the %W[#{}#{}] bug
<judofyr>
whitequark: lexer.rl will always come back and haunt you
<whitequark>
judofyr: hahaha. haha... ... *sob*
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<ddfreyne>
whitequark: What made you use smalltalk?
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<whitequark>
ddfreyne: curiosity
<ddfreyne>
i have never tried VisualAge, but I do know about it
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: I use VisualWorks, but it’s meh
<whitequark>
ddfreyne: VisualAge is somewhat meh too
<whitequark>
crashes all the time
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: (at work, I mean. But only 15 days left until I quit :P)
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<whitequark>
it's a cool concept, Delphi is pretty much a direct ripoff
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<ddfreyne>
I’ve never used Delphi
<whitequark>
aka C++Builder
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: The GUI looks very icky though :)
<whitequark>
I started with it
<whitequark>
ddfreyne: meh it doesn't really matter :)
<whitequark>
it's like syntax. we all know that syntax doesn't matter ;)
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<ddfreyne>
Really? ;)
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: Is it also image-based? (I guess so)
<whitequark>
ddfreyne: VA Smalltalk? indeed
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: It’s sad that Smalltalk hasn’t evolved much in the past 20 years :(
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: At ESUG (smalltalk conference) the VA Smalltalk guys gave a presentation about how the text editor now had autocomplete
<whitequark>
oh.
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: Granted, the autocomplete feature was pretty impressive, but… that stuff existed 10 years ago too
<whitequark>
isn't implementing such a feature trivial in such an advanced environment?
<whitequark>
like you can implement a tcp stack in ten lines of scheme
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: It also completed OCol<tab> to OrderedCollection for instance, so not quite that trivial
<whitequark>
I'd expect this from ST :)
<whitequark>
hmmm... fuzzy matching. about 50 lines of JS :)
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: Context-aware fuzzy matching though
<ddfreyne>
self <tab>
<whitequark>
ddfreyne: yeah :) still not that complex imo
<ddfreyne>
Oh well, it was nice, but not revolutionary
<whitequark>
I think it's the whole "enterprise" mindset
<whitequark>
it's risk- and change-averse
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<ddfreyne>
whitequark: The community is too small
<whitequark>
ddfreyne: smaller than, say, PLT Scheme community? which is also fragmented
<whitequark>
yet they have DrRacket and it's awesome
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<ddfreyne>
whitequark: The Smalltalk community is extremely fragmented. Every smalltalk implementation has a different syntax!
<whitequark>
sigh
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<ddfreyne>
sigh indeed :)
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: The biggest Smalltalk conference has maybe 150 people
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<whitequark>
ddfreyne: heh
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: Most of the talks are pretty useless. The conference is 4 full days but they could *easily* reduce that to two and not lose any content
<ddfreyne>
I went two consecutive years. Some talks are very similar, almost identical.
<ddfreyne>
Lots and lots of filler talks
<ddfreyne>
Quite a few people presenting their innovative developments, but their stuff already exists for 5, 10 years outside of Smalltalk
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<whitequark>
yeah, pretty sad.
<ddfreyne>
So as you can see, I’ve grown to be rather disappointed in Smalltalk :)
<ddfreyne>
Which doesn’t mean that the language isn’t cool, and some IDE stuff is amazing (the debugger is fantastic)
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<whitequark>
yeah, the IDE reminds me Eclipse a lot. I guess because Eclipse evolved from VA :D
<ddfreyne>
it did?
<whitequark>
according to wiki, yes
<whitequark>
they even use the same icons
<ddfreyne>
Ohh, interesting!
<whitequark>
it is however really really overloaded with stuff
<whitequark>
you can just browse menus for hours
<whitequark>
I tried to figure out how to do anything there for four hours or so, then gave up and looked in the manual :D
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<ddfreyne>
whitequark: VisualWorks is like that too. Lots and lots of menus… and our company has lots of additional dev tools
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<whitequark>
also I once clicked on some button and it asked me to buy stuff by calling a phone number
<whitequark>
... I suddenly remember it has "Enterprise" in the name
<charliesome>
whitequark: does the phone number still work
<whitequark>
charliesome: i'm not in the us
<whitequark>
and I'm not that rich
<charliesome>
whitequark: skype
<ddfreyne>
haha
<whitequark>
eww
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<charliesome>
sorry for offending
<ddfreyne>
Skype is evil now that it’s Microsoft!
<whitequark>
:D
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<charliesome>
it was always evil
<whitequark>
ddfreyne: it's simply shit on linux
<whitequark>
and os x
<charliesome>
cpu sucking crap
<whitequark>
and windows
<whitequark>
charliesome: OH YES
<ddfreyne>
I once wondered why Google doesn’t do telephone interviews via Skype… and then I realised :D
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<ddfreyne>
Still image-based though. And written in Python, ew ;)
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<judofyr>
ddfreyne: is a Smalltalk that isn't image-based a real Smalltalk?
<judofyr>
ddfreyne: is a Forth that doesn't give you access to assembly a real Forth?
<ddfreyne>
judofyr: A good question :)
<judofyr>
ddfreyne: is a Lisp without macros a real Lisp?
<judofyr>
… and so on
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<Smol>
is a ruby that isn't ridiculously slow a real ruby?
<ddfreyne>
o snap
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<pskosinski>
In RoR that is secure a real RoR?
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<whitequark>
if I understand it correctly, in PyPy you don't write Python code
<whitequark>
it's about as Python as Foundry is Ruby
<judofyr>
whitequark: correct
<whitequark>
(i.e. syntax.)
<whitequark>
I think PyPy is an excellent idea, and a step in the right direction for MRE development
<judofyr>
whitequark: MRE?
<whitequark>
managed runtime environment
<whitequark>
JRE, CLR, etc
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<darix>
isnt there a pypy based ruby too?
<whitequark>
topaz
<whitequark>
it's somewhat useless
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<whitequark>
nice as a showcase of pypy's features, though.
<ddfreyne>
how come?
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<whitequark>
ddfreyne: the interpreter is one of the lesser important parts of an MRE
<judofyr>
whitequark: useless how? I think it's mostly core-lib that needs to be added. (oh, and threading is a big one)
<whitequark>
execution engine.
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<whitequark>
judofyr: you just basically said "we have 99% of stuff left, and it's nowhere as exciting as the 1% we just implemented"
<digi691>
Is there an issue with ruby-doc.org?
<judofyr>
whitequark: true, but they have done most of the hard stuff; now there's the boring stuff left :)
<judofyr>
whitequark: I love the idea of JITting the interpreter
<whitequark>
judofyr: you don't
<judofyr>
I don't what?
<whitequark>
you don't JIT the interpreter because it's static.
<whitequark>
the optimal optimization strategy for the interpreter and stdlib (the latter depends on the language) is AOT
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<whitequark>
it is a good idea to write the interpreter in such a way that it can be JITed; that greatly simplifies AOTing it, too
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<darix>
whitequark: AOT?
<whitequark>
but you don't really want to do it in practice
<whitequark>
darix: ahead of time compiling. the opposite of jit.
<whitequark>
gcc is AOT
<whitequark>
for example
<darix>
ic
<darix>
thanks
<whitequark>
judofyr: JITs are good at optimizing hot paths relatively cheaply
<whitequark>
whereas in an execution engine you want to optimize everything and you want it to be predictable
<whitequark>
JITs are inherently random
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<whitequark>
(because the paths which will be optimized in the execution engine are going to be "mostly same", but they'll depend on the environment and the running program. you don't want to debug these performance-related issues.)
<whitequark>
it is also a very good idea to AOT the stdlib in "static" languages (Java, etc). for much the same reasons.
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<judofyr>
whitequark: yes, the interpreter is compiled, but in PyPy/Topaz the JIT is running on the interpreter. you don't have to write a custom JITter for every language you implement.
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<whitequark>
travis is down :/
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<freedrull>
gah, in resque there is this inheritence hirerarchy with a base class, then this other module that delegates to the subclass...its just wacky
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<zzak>
mistym: :( 187 is security fix only until june
<mistym>
zzak: Yeah, I don't actually use 1.8.7 for stuff other than Homebrew (where we're stuck with what Apple gives us). Just found the documentation funny.
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<Ace20>
Is it possible to make a method with a required keyword argument with ruby 2.0.0?
<whitequark>
Ace20: no
<injekt>
Ace20: no, but you could raise an exception