<rickhull>
if we could go back in time and redo it, is there any good argument against having keyword-only args?
<erikh>
yeah he's done a lot
<erikh>
my first real patch was to setup.rb
<whitequark>
most funny thing: in about 2001 while writing a book about MRI he has discovered that one peculiarity of lexer is actually dead code
<whitequark>
fast forward to 2013
<whitequark>
it's STILL THERE
<rickhull>
just in case
<whitequark>
a state that does nothing but confuses programmers
<erikh>
hah
<erikh>
I can't say I appreciate kwargs much.
<erikh>
I'd just rather pass in a hash
<rickhull>
that's kind of hacky
<whitequark>
erikh: it's passing a hash
<rickhull>
but it works
<erikh>
disagree
<erikh>
whitequark: I know
<rickhull>
but what if all args needed keywords. why not?
<erikh>
I don't actually ever spell out keyword arguments
<erikh>
I pass them in as I construct them
<rickhull>
rand(num: 5)
<whitequark>
positional boolean arguments suck
<erikh>
err, rather, after I do
<rickhull>
kind of lame
<erikh>
whitequark: not disagreeing
<erikh>
just... don't like all the extra blah
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<rickhull>
i like that you can see at the call site what is being indicated
<erikh>
sure, but I like typing less
<rickhull>
weak
<rickhull>
you spend more time reading than writing
<erikh>
haha
<erikh>
I read quickly
<rickhull>
not without context
<whitequark>
if i was doing ruby syntax from scratch... I'd completely kill paren-less calls without an explicit receiver. maybe all paren-less calls with arguments. and non-percent literals.
<rickhull>
keywords = more context
<whitequark>
*regexp literals
<rickhull>
whitequark: but you are optimizing for internals, not the programmer experience
<whitequark>
rickhull: disagree
<rickhull>
i don't disagree btw
<whitequark>
the syntax *is* confusing
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<erikh>
p a b c
<rickhull>
there is that GoF pattern thingie
<erikh>
WHAT HAPPENS
<rickhull>
about method calls looking like attributes
<whitequark>
that too
<whitequark>
rickhull: eh
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<whitequark>
I'd just make you write out self.a/self.a=
<erikh>
this is one of those wins lisp's pesky parens actually provides
<whitequark>
the problem is that the whole variable/attribute thing is *actually* problematic
<erikh>
(p (a (b c))) is a lot more obvious
<whitequark>
plus, the whole command stuff starts to explode very fast
<rickhull>
using space for a function applicator may be the real wtf
<whitequark>
foo bar do end
<whitequark>
what happens?
<erikh>
aye
<whitequark>
it's hardcoded as "foo gets the block"
<erikh>
right
<whitequark>
with a pretty evil hack
<erikh>
really?
<erikh>
fun.
<whitequark>
yeah
<rickhull>
GREAT BAND
<erikh>
rickhull: how many have you had?
<whitequark>
it abuses LALR(1) lookahead
<erikh>
:P
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<rickhull>
a few :p
<whitequark>
erikh: also this: while foo do end
<whitequark>
what happens? :D
<whitequark>
I think it's hardcoded to bind to while, also.
* erikh
thinks
<whitequark>
in a similar way.
<erikh>
really.
<whitequark>
it's not over!
<erikh>
I mean, you'd think the same rule would work for both, just applied at a higher level
<whitequark>
while foo -> do end end
<whitequark>
what happens? :D
<erikh>
oh
<erikh>
fuck ->
<erikh>
fuck it right in the ear
<erikh>
with a ->
<whitequark>
it's the THIRD overload for do
<whitequark>
and surprisingly
<whitequark>
in this case do binds to the innermost.
<whitequark>
what the fuck ruby
<whitequark>
ever heard of consistency
<erikh>
haha
<erikh>
you need a beer.
<whitequark>
I need a lobotomy
<erikh>
perhaps you need to get into Go
<rickhull>
i'd rather have a bottle in front of me
<rickhull>
than a frontal lobotomy
<erikh>
haha
<erikh>
nice timing.
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<rickhull>
hi 5, nice setup
<erikh>
^5
<whitequark>
oh also
<whitequark>
foo<<BAR
<whitequark>
what is this, a left shift or a heredoc?
<whitequark>
for bonus points
<erikh>
let me guess, depends on BAR
<whitequark>
foo.class<<BAR
<whitequark>
erikh: no. depends on foo.
<erikh>
really?!
<whitequark>
same lvar trick
<erikh>
a;lksj
<erikh>
stop
<erikh>
stahp
<erikh>
STOP.
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<whitequark>
no, i didn't completely ruin ruby for you, yet
<erikh>
no you haven't
<erikh>
but I start my new job tomorrow
<erikh>
and I want this evening to be relaxing
<rickhull>
RELAX, whitequark gotcha back
<whitequark>
oh also
<whitequark>
foo:bar
<whitequark>
what is this?
<whitequark>
a) depends on foo
<whitequark>
b) depends on preceding context
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<rickhull>
B
<whitequark>
eg if it was baz \
<whitequark>
then it's a foo: bar
<whitequark>
otherwise it is foo :bar
<whitequark>
there's also this
<whitequark>
a = foo if b is (a = foo) if b
<whitequark>
but a = foo rescue b is a = (foo rescue b)
<rickhull>
can't we just make people disambiguate with spaces like any normal human?
<whitequark>
and 1.8 for some twisted reason allows an octal literal with no digits
<whitequark>
0o
<whitequark>
so, instead of saying "unexpected d" as for "0d"
<whitequark>
1.9 and laters say "octal literal without digits"
<whitequark>
>> 0o
<eval-in>
whitequark => /tmp/execpad-557e41b748d5/source-557e41b748d5:2: numeric literal without digits ... (http://eval.in/31221)
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* whitequark
scratches his head
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<whitequark>
also one of the changes in 2.0 were to fix class << foo:bar, which used to be a parse error
<whitequark>
and make it class << foo(:bar)
<whitequark>
there's also =begin
<whitequark>
it's... interesting
<whitequark>
you can span a method call over =begin/=end if the dot is trailing... foo.\n=begin\n=end\nbar
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<rickhull>
frankly i would just trigger the system bell every time you encounter these situations
<whitequark>
but not if foo\n=begin\n=end\n.bar
<rickhull>
problem solved
<whitequark>
however foo #bar\n.baz is totally fine
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<whitequark>
also there's __END__, which looks like keyword, but surprise, it isn't
<whitequark>
__END__ = 1 is just fine
<whitequark>
and p __END__
<whitequark>
but if it occurs without any preceding or following whitespace, then it's special
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<ironcamel>
/lc/lc
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<erikh>
whitequark: neat
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<erikh>
I just learned my zpool was out of space
<erikh>
after copying for 10 hours
<erikh>
not very happy right now
<erikh>
probably need to set this down until the weekend
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<injekt>
zzak: hit me up when you're online, here or skype
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<yorickpeterse>
HAI INTERNET FRIENDS
<yorickpeterse>
I DID NOT SLEEP VERY WELL LAST NIGHT
<bnagy>
I prescribe gin
<yorickpeterse>
I don't have any
<yorickpeterse>
I only have tea
<bnagy>
well there's your problem
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<erikh>
ha
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<gnufied>
drink hot water.
<yorickpeterse>
Tea is hot water
<gnufied>
and get someone to slap you, when you are leaning on the desk
<yorickpeterse>
wat
<yorickpeterse>
is this some weird fetish?
<gnufied>
if it helps keeping awake why not? there was a thread on HN sometime back about someone got a girl to slap him, when he was procrastinating during work.
<gnufied>
:-)
<gnufied>
I mean the person he happened to hire was a girl. nothing particular about it.
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<ajack>
Hi guys, in Ruby 1.8.7 doing SomeModule::SomeClass.subclasses returns me an array of subclasses, whereas in 1.9.3 doing the same just gives me a string of the first defined subclass - how can I get an array of all subclasses of a class in 1.9.3?
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<judofyr>
ajack: I think it's ActiveSupport that adds that functionality
<judofyr>
ajack: I'd recommend implementing inherited: class MyBase; def self.inherited(klass); store_somewhere(klass) end end
<ajack>
Ahh, sorry I thought it was a ruby thing!
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<ajack>
Nice idea, thanks :)
<judofyr>
ajack: if you need to get subclasses for any class, you can use ObjectSpace
<judofyr>
>> ObjectSpace.each_object(Class).select { |x| x < Integer }
<yorickpeterse>
passing `false` means it doesn't include inherited/included methods
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<injekt>
yay for not being able to install rbx or jruby through ruby-build
<yorickpeterse>
eh?
<injekt>
errors man, I dont even like ruby-build.. doing it myself always works better
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<gnufied>
rvm and rbx have been arch enemies
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<injekt>
what does rvm have to do with this?
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<gnufied>
after compiling rbx and presuming using rbenv, how do you invoke it? you still use rbx command? rvm traditionally just works after rvm install rbx, but the problem is there were too many bugs in Rubinius tracker related to rvm
<injekt>
dude why are you talking about rvm?
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<gnufied>
because I felt like pointing out? if you chose to use that path, that is not safe either?
<injekt>
use what path? I dont use rvm
<injekt>
I'm so confused
<gnufied>
cool.
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<judofyr>
gnufied: you select rbx as you would select any Ruby in rbenv?
<judofyr>
rbenv shell
<judofyr>
or .ruby-version
<judofyr>
or whatever it is
<yorickpeterse>
injekt: works fine here
<judofyr>
oh, backlog
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<injekt>
derp
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<injekt>
yorickpeterse: I get an error about the lib/ directory not existing \o/
<yorickpeterse>
get a better potatoe
<yorickpeterse>
one that runs a real OS
* yorickpeterse
runs
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<injekt>
har
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<andrewvos>
how in the hell did you just spell potato son?
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<whitequark>
tl;dr: use tzdata. use tzdata. use tzdata. update your tzdata. use tzdata.
<ddfreyne>
Hmm, a style question:
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<imperator>
Gangam
<ddfreyne>
https://gist.github.com/ddfreyne/5630100 <- I want it to be possible to instantiate a Foo with a string instead of the expected TextualContent. For that to work, I need a class check... but that feels ugly to me.
<ddfreyne>
Any better ways to do this? I was thinking of #coerce, but that only works between instances.
<imperator>
does nanoc have any methods for automatically converting strings?
<ddfreyne>
Monkey-patching a #to_textual_content method on TextualContent (returning self) and String is possible, but it is a bit icky
<ddfreyne>
imperator: Automatically? What do you mean byt hat?
<whitequark>
ddfreyne: that's a weird method
<whitequark>
it does X if a String is passed, and Y if something else
<whitequark>
for example, fixnum.
<whitequark>
if you want a class check, do it on Nanoc::TextualContent, and otherwise create it from content.to_s
<imperator>
ddfreyne, i mean a String#xxx method
<whitequark>
(I consider it fine to do class checks on classes you own)
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: Well, the content variable can either be a String o ra TextualContent... I suppose I should check whether it's neither of those
<imperator>
nm
<ddfreyne>
whitequark: Ahh, checking TextualContent would be a good idea
<whitequark>
and using to_s otherwise, yeah
<whitequark>
so you have all cases covered
<ddfreyne>
Yep, thanks
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<yorickpeterse>
exciting task of the day: zero-wiping a disk
<yorickpeterse>
always fun hoping you didn't accidently wipe your main disk
<whitequark>
$ shred /dev/root
<yorickpeterse>
real lunix hackers use dd
<whitequark>
you know difference between dd and shred, right?
<whitequark>
though
<yorickpeterse>
also of course I fuck up LUKS the first time I try it again
<whitequark>
it doesn't matter for block devices
<whitequark>
and you cannot reliably destroy, AND reliably recover data from SSDs :p
<yorickpeterse>
set up one pen drive ages ago for SSH details and such, of course this time I forget to first create a partition and then LUKS it
<eam>
modern disks have enough going on that software level erasing cannot be guaranteed -- and certainly writing the same area twice isn't very meaningful
<ddfreyne>
Not entirely happy with the implementation yet either. Maybe I should add more nil checks.
<eam>
outside of the ATA SECURE ERASE instruction, but good luck getting that to work on hardware made in this decade
<whitequark>
eam: yes you're right
<whitequark>
though the NIST 800-88 says a different thing
<whitequark>
" That is, for ATA disk drives manufactured after 2001 (over 15 GB) clearing by overwriting the media once is adequate to protect the media from both keyboard and laboratory attack."
<whitequark>
which also makes sense
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<whitequark>
eam: I believe that modern HDDs don't reallocate sectors unless they really have to, because that could make seek time even worse than it is
<whitequark>
SSDs on the other hand do whatever they please
<eam>
whitequark: yeah I was more talking about shred's multiple writes. Just one will do
<whitequark>
ddfreyne: fine
<eam>
whitequark: yeah that's true, but there's still an enormous portion set aside for it
<eam>
and it's gonna have some of your data
<whitequark>
eam: how so?
<whitequark>
that is, I'm not trying to contradict you, they're complex beasts
<whitequark>
but I don't quite see how this will happen
<eam>
whitequark: well, let's say 25% of the storage capacity is reserved for remapping bad blocks
<whitequark>
right
<eam>
and that it's designed to last for 4 years
<whitequark>
I always thought that with modern hard drives, when it begins to reallocate it's basically dead
<eam>
1T drive -> 250G reserved -> you can estimate that around 62G will get remapped (as in, an inaccessible copy probably remains)
<whitequark>
and SMART (if it doesn't lie) thinks so, too
<eam>
each year
<eam>
whitequark: pretty sure they do an enormous amount of remapping
<whitequark>
because all my drives have had reallocated sector count as zero until they died
<whitequark>
eam: source?
<ddfreyne>
And while I am at it, another style question: Nanoc::Identifier.from_string(s) oder Nanoc::Identifier.new_from_string(s)? (`new` vs no `new`)
<whitequark>
from_string(s)
<whitequark>
or just #new?
<eam>
whitequark: well, for a given device just look at the reserved size, and how long the device is designed to last for
<whitequark>
let's check for the hard drive in my notebook. 500G one
<eam>
and that'll give an idea, very roughly, of how much data is expected to be remapped over time
<ddfreyne>
Just #new won't work (it accepts an array of components). .from_string is a convenience method that does the string splitting
<ddfreyne>
I suppose ClassName.from_xxx is a good convention
<whitequark>
wow, it eats 16W while doing i/o
<whitequark>
what a pig
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<whitequark>
that's more than everything else combined
<eam>
non-solid state :(
<whitequark>
oh, sneaky decimal point
<whitequark>
1.6 :D
<whitequark>
that's actually quite decent, even compared to S/S
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<whitequark>
eam: can't seem to find the data... it's HTS545050A7E380
<eam>
I don't have any numbers in front of me
<eam>
I dug into it a while back and I remember there was a surprising amount of reserved space
<whitequark>
for some reason they don't mention it in the datasheet
<whitequark>
ok
<whitequark>
well, maybe.
<eam>
and with the gigantic capacity of drives, even if it's like 10%, for a 1T drive that's 100G
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<eam>
one way to get at it is to figure out the density of the platters
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<whitequark>
that will leave a margin of orders of magnitude
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<eam>
like if you know they use 250G/surface and have two platters, the raw capacity is 1T, so if it sells as a 750G drive you can guess one surface is for remapping
<whitequark>
you won't know how much is for metadata, ECC, ...
<eam>
whitequark: totally
<whitequark>
and maybe they just make 1TB drives and slice half of it off for marketing purposes
<eam>
it's all very rough, I don't know if anyone publishes that data for consumer grade devices
<whitequark>
I've seen it for earlier drives, 5+ years ago
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<whitequark>
eam: btw, what's the problem with ATA SECURE ERASE?
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<eam>
oh it's fine, but there's no equiv for scsi/sas
<whitequark>
really? that's strange
<eam>
whitequark: I should say, there's an instruction for it -- which many vendors don't implement
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<whitequark>
do they provide multi-thousand-dollar tools for secure erasing of data? :D
<eam>
that's discussed somewhat in NIST 800-88 iirc
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<eam>
whitequark: generally people opt for physical destruction
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<whitequark>
well, I guess there's no way around it :p
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<eam>
(or, they operate at a security level where clear is adequate)
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<eam>
whitequark: basically clear/purge/destroy has become clear / destroy with not much middle ground
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<whitequark>
I see
<whitequark>
bbl
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<yorickpeterse>
bah, why do all the cool filesystems have file permissions
<yorickpeterse>
Don't force me to use FAT32 :<
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<yorickpeterse>
fuckit, FAT32, don't have files over 4GB anyway
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<NemesisD>
was wanting to check my understanding of ruby GC. is it true that if your process grows to a certian size, the vm will not surrender that memory back to the os?
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<akahn>
is there anything like Process.wait that waits until *all* subprocesses have exited? it seems like if i fork 5 times, I need to call Process.wait 5 times to know that they've all exited
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<cored>
oh yes I know, the code is updated in here
<cored>
that was just a silly test
<cored>
but I get a faiulre on the specs
<cored>
seems like the rescue is not catching the exception
<injekt>
so what exception is being raised?
<cored>
none
<injekt>
...
<injekt>
"the rescue is not catching the exception that is not being raised"
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<cored>
let me re explain myself
<cored>
when I use stub I get a failure
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<cored>
saying uncaught exception Timeout::Error
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<cored>
but if I use should_receive I don't get anything
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<cored>
don't know if the problem is because I can't not use should_Receive with an stub
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<zzak>
injekt: hai
<injekt>
zzak: hey dude sorry been super busy today
<zzak>
same
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<injekt>
crazy week, how's things?
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<zzak>
tryin to get ready for the trip on sat
<injekt>
damn that's come around quick
<zzak>
too quick :(
<injekt>
you prepped?
<zzak>
no
<zzak>
lol
<zzak>
have to re-record my screencasts
<zzak>
and figure out bluetooth for my remote
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<zzak>
it was working on wifi, but i cant trust the wifi there to be working
<injekt>
why re-record?
<injekt>
ah
<zzak>
need to bump the fonts up
<injekt>
is the schedule still the same?
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<injekt>
zzak: I'm gonna head out, lets catch up tomorrow if you have any free time, I have a couple of meetings in the morning but should be good for early afternoon GMT if you're available
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<zzak>
same schedule
<zzak>
injekt: sounds good, ping me after your meetings
<injekt>
zzak: will do, ttyl
<zzak>
night!
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<matti>
zzak: Can I borrow fluffy one? I need some cuteness.
<zzak>
matti: hes sleeping :(
<matti>
Oh.
<matti>
I see.
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<matti>
zzak: How is point release coming?
<matti>
zzak: I still have hope for my change ;]
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<zzak>
you should ping the ticket if you want some feedback, its been long enough
<zzak>
i forget which ticket it was now
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