azonenberg changed the topic of #scopehal to: libscopehal, libscopeprotocols, and glscopeclient development and testing |,, | Logs:
<azonenberg> well i mean i have plenty of 1g sfp's etc
<azonenberg> what i might do at some point is make a sfp-to-sma breakout
<monochroma> azonenberg: hmmm if you want one i might be in the need of similar soon
<azonenberg> if i want to make one you mean?
<azonenberg> 3.3V barrel jack from bench supply, sma tx, sma rx?
<azonenberg> then maybe test points for i2c etc
<monochroma> azonenberg: i was meaning the other way around, i might be making one for myself so i could send you one
<azonenberg> oh
<monochroma> if you want to make one that works too :P
<azonenberg> i'd rather build it myself because i already have board proven sma footprints for the oshpark stackup etc
<azonenberg> i'll see if i can bang it out this weekend
<monochroma> i was planning on using your library hehe
<azonenberg> And i also needed to build a sfp+ cage footprint for various pending projects
<azonenberg> so this is an excuse
<monochroma> :3
<azonenberg> i need it for maxwell so this will be a chance to board-prove it first
<azonenberg> one less way that board can fail
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg pushed 2 commits to master [+5/-0/±4]
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg ad04ed5 - Initial version of sfp-to-sma
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg 93f030c - handheld-resistive-probe: v0.9
<azonenberg> First MEAD enclosure prototype is in
<azonenberg> Looks good but feels a bit flimsy in spots. Definitely will want to thicken up the walls
<azonenberg> I think i can improve the LCD mounting, it looks like there's a spot to put a screw on
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2]
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg bf81392 - Final schematic for sfp-to-sma test fixture
Degi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Degi has joined #scopehal
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg pushed 2 commits to master [+2/-0/±3]
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg 337123b - Routed most of sfp-to-sma
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg 75473ad - Added oshpark probe tip simulation
_whitelogger has joined #scopehal
<azonenberg> Still debating whether i'm going to want to make the full metal enclosure or not. I'm probably going to hold off on a decision there until the MEAD boards come in next weekend, and i can see how hot they run
<azonenberg> and play with my new EMC probes and see how leaky they are :p
<azonenberg> Also just got an email from kickstarter, things have cleared on their end and they're sending me payment from the backers shortly. Once that comes in I'll be doing the PMK order to get all of the tips, grounds, etc
<monochroma> :D
<azonenberg> Next probe pcb rev is still a few days out as well, so we'll see how it works
<azonenberg> Then the SFP+ test fixture is coming along nicely and will hopefully be done in another hour or two
<azonenberg> then i can get back to MAXWELL schematic symbol creation
<azonenberg> and start thinking about approximate bank assignments etc
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2]
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg 9466ecc - Continued layout on sfp-to-sma board. Fully routed, need some plane tweaks and stitching vias.
<azonenberg> lain, monochroma:
<azonenberg> ready for final signoff review, i think
<azonenberg> maybe some tweaks to the power planes
<monochroma> sniff all the high speed busses! :D
<monochroma> azonenberg: what do you think needs to be done to the planes?
<azonenberg> monochroma: just rearranging a bit of layer 3 so i had solid ground under the back side diffpairs
<azonenberg> done now
<azonenberg> Ready for sneef sneef
<monochroma> yay
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1]
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg 1543647 - Final version of sfp-to-sma, ready for layout review
<azonenberg> If you wanna have a look at the board before i send it out
<Degi> Oh neat
<Degi> Is that for 10G?
<azonenberg> Degi: in theory it should be able to do 10G, yes. Although i dont have a scope fast enough to see that
<azonenberg> monochroma's scope is 5 GHz bandwidth so just barely too slow
<azonenberg> however it's not a brick wall frequency resopnse
<Degi> 5 GHz is suffiicient
<Degi> Heh yeah
<azonenberg> 10G is 10.3125 Gbps
<Degi> If it was brick wall then maybe not
<azonenberg> if it can still read 5.15625 GHz without too much attenuation
<azonenberg> then we might be able to pull it off
<azonenberg> i intend to try
<Degi> (I mean like my rigol can show 250 MHz just fine, with a few dB damping despite having 70 MHz BW)
<azonenberg> she wants to use it for debugging some fpga stuff, i personally plan to use it to develop a 1000base-X protocol decoder
<Degi> Like thats 3% more
<azonenberg> and possibly 10Gbase-R and 64b66b eventually
<azonenberg> Yeah. I fully expect it to work
<azonenberg> it's out of spec but lecroy gear is usually pretty good about being slightly faster than advertised
<azonenberg> they dont cut corners
<Degi> Inb4 it turns out that there's some 100th order filter or so in there
<azonenberg> no i've seen actual cal data off my scopes
<azonenberg> they're a few percent above the advertised bw cap on both channels
<azonenberg> its a decently steep rolloff after that but 150 MHz past 5 GHz i think will work
<Degi> For the -3dB?
<azonenberg> Yes
<azonenberg> the cal report includes actual -3 dB bw for each channel
<azonenberg> my VNA also can be used as a sinewave signal generator, no modulation support so won't replace a proper vector siggen
<azonenberg> but can be used to test freq response of a scope after a fashion
<Degi> My rigol has rather slow rolloff, dont really remember how much, maybe 18 dB per decade or so
<azonenberg> i intend to characterize her scope to find the actual response curve
<azonenberg> Degi: anyway if you have a bit of time to do a layout review before i send it out, i wouldnt mind a second set of eyes
<Degi> Hm yeah ill git clone it
<Degi> Ahh its a thingie which connects SMA 1 to 2 and splits out the signals on the SMA
<Degi> Those splitters look neat for paralleling HMCADs
<Degi> Maybe a tad high BW
<azonenberg> for $2 each is it worth going lower end?
<Degi> Oh
<azonenberg> Lol
<Degi> Ok thats p cheap
<azonenberg> Exactly
<Degi> And its a passive. With active elements that makes more sense due to noise.
<azonenberg> But yes for ADC paralleling this is a good choice
<azonenberg> i actually picked it out originally for FREESAMPLE
<azonenberg> the very first thing the signal path hits on FREESAMPLE is one of these, wtih one port going to the trigger circuit and one to the "ADC"
<Degi> Huh those splitters are quite tight underneath
* monochroma looks it over rl quick
<azonenberg> it passes the oshpark drc
<azonenberg> let me know when you two have finished looking at it and i'll run through my layout review checklist
<Degi> I mean I hope it passes the solder paste "drc" heh
<azonenberg> They come in a range of sizes, this is one of the smaller ones
<azonenberg> lower power handling capacity but a non-issue for low voltage like this
<Degi> Like that time we had a diode shorted from solder...
<azonenberg> i think when i get a proper stencil printer that holds tension on the stencil i will get much better prints
<azonenberg> i've been eyeing one but need to figure out how to free up some bench space to set it up before i order
<Degi> Tension on the stencil? As in stretchingi t lightly?
<azonenberg> yes
<Degi> Because otherwise it kinda bends and moves?
<azonenberg> so it cant flex and move around
<azonenberg> i dont get good gasketing
<Degi> I mean theres stencils with big metal frames too, at least at JLC
<azonenberg> it's a lot better with steel than kapton but there's still room to improve
<azonenberg> there is one stencil printer i've found that works with frameless stencils
<Degi> Huh, Kapton stencils sound weird
<azonenberg> much cheaper and more storable
<azonenberg> laser cut kapton is the poor man's stencil
<Degi> Hm yeah
<azonenberg> they're ultra cheap and better than using a syringe to put down dots of paste
<azonenberg> but vastly inferior to steel
<Degi> I mean theyre only 7 bucks non-framed at jlc anyway
<azonenberg> only recently did steel become affordable to the average hobbyist for one-off boards
<Degi> And with frame theyre 9.43 $ and its like 1 kg or so oof
<azonenberg> oshstencils is a bit more than jlc but its also a us-based shop so quick turn
<azonenberg> and yes, that is the big issue. frames are big and heavy
<Degi> Tbh not sure if jlc or oshpark ships to me faster heh
<azonenberg> imagine dozens of them on a shelf somewhere
<azonenberg> my lab is tight enough on space already
<Degi> Yeh like foils are easier to stack
<azonenberg> i store my small stencils in a baseball card organizer binder
<azonenberg> lol
<Degi> Is the rx pins on the SFP where the power comes out?
<Degi> The diff pairs are routed kinda near to cutouts on In2.Cu
<Degi> And how much current and precision do they need on the 3V3 rail? I guess not so much?
<azonenberg> rx pins are outbound from the optic, yes
<azonenberg> max current is i think ~300 mA total between tx and rx?
<azonenberg> i have a 2A fuse on the input and will be feeding it from a regulated bench supply
<Degi> So in1 is GND, in2 is 3v3...
<Degi> Hm yeah
<azonenberg> in2 is a mix of 3v3 and ground
<azonenberg> its ground anywhere i have RF signals referenced to it
<azonenberg> 3.3 around the perimeter
<Degi> Like if you have 1 Ohm cable drop, you'd get like 3.0 V
<azonenberg> and idgaf about ref planes for the i2c etc :p
<azonenberg> My PSU supports remote sense if it comes to that, but i expect nowhere near 1 ohm of drop
<azonenberg> i can also just monitor the actual load and bump up the voltage a bit
<azonenberg> this is meant for benchtop use in a controlled lab environment
<azonenberg> and it was a quick test fixture, i didnt want to bother throwing regulators on it
<Degi> The RF splitters with the 100 µm solder mask look kinda tight tbh. But if that works out that'd be great, I guess that means that smaller pitch BGAs would work fine too
<monochroma> azonenberg: not seeing anything jumping out at me, but i'm not quick enough to properly review to get it out tonight
<azonenberg> Degi: my min design rule for oshpark soldermask is 50 um
<azonenberg> monochroma: yeah i'll probably wait till the morning to make sure
<azonenberg> not like they'll run the board overnight anyway
<monochroma> hehe
<Degi> n!^(n!) is a funny function
bvernoux has joined #scopehal
juli967 has joined #scopehal
<bvernoux> new footprint for new test board
<bvernoux> It is compatible with different SMA connectors ;)
<bvernoux> including my latest Southwest Microwave 1092-02A-5, 2.92mm Female End Launch Connector
<bvernoux> I have not found 3D step file for Southwest Microwave 1092-02A-5 ...
<bvernoux> TRL Board with this new connector
<bvernoux> need to check if I can have a discount from OSHPark to produce it ;)
juli967 has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 -]
<bvernoux> just launched 3 RF PCB test at JLCPCB
<bvernoux> To test their Impedance FAB with JLC7628 + Lead Free Solder + FR4 TG155 and also same board with ENIG ;)
<Degi> Did you add a cutout over the RF trace?
<Degi> Rigol sure loves trigger jitter
<Degi> What about pattern triggering, where after triggering you correlate that waveform with the pattern for maximum fir
<Degi> That should have super low jitteer
<bvernoux> No I have not addeded cutout over RF trace
<Degi> So theres silkscreen over it?
<bvernoux> as I'm using top of the art connectors which does not need it ;)
<bvernoux> silkscreen is removed of course
<Degi> Hmh
<Degi> Because I'd like to know the difference with and without silkscreen
<bvernoux> the connector is not the good one on picture
<Degi> Whether the ENIG is below the silkscreen too
<bvernoux> anyway my footprint accept both ;)
<bvernoux> I have not used ENIG
<Degi> Ah HASL?
<bvernoux> yes both to compare
<Degi> Ah yes leadfree hasl
<Degi> That should be fine
<bvernoux> LeadFree HASL ;)
<bvernoux> vs ENIG
<bvernoux> with same PCB FR4 TG155
<bvernoux> to compare them
<Degi> I'd expect that to be a lot better yeah
<bvernoux> and I will use my SouthWest Microwave connector 2.92mm ;)
<bvernoux> which are specified up to 40GHz ultra flat
<miek> the enig/hasl happens after solder mask application
<bvernoux> It is a good test to check JLCPB for that
<bvernoux> next step will be to use RO4350B
<bvernoux> with same design
<bvernoux> Adding also some filters
<bvernoux> some RF filters ...
<bvernoux> I reuploaded 2nd board
<bvernoux> and
<Degi> Hmh tbh the shunt and series fixtures should be redesigned such that the trace doesnt get wider...
<bvernoux> in theory they shall be also resigned to use 0402 components
<bvernoux> Degi, they are now wider ?
<bvernoux> not
<Degi> The shunt fixture can be replaced by something similar to line and the series fixture, the same thing but with a slot
<bvernoux> ha yes
<Degi> Well at the shunt and series fixture the pads are wider than the trace
<bvernoux> it's to check the effect in fact
<bvernoux> especially Shunt Fixture
<Degi> Ahh
<Degi> Of the pads
<bvernoux> to compare shunt on Thu and this one ;)
<bvernoux> to see effect of that
<bvernoux> so it is intentional ;)
<bvernoux> for test purpose
<bvernoux> there is an interesting things on CrowdSupply
<bvernoux> but it is a bit too expensive
<bvernoux> for 199USD I will have bought it ;)
<bvernoux> I'm waiting my BB3
<bvernoux> as I have lot of things to do with it
<bvernoux> to test my HF Amplifier ...
<Degi> BB3?
<bvernoux> BB3 - Two Channel (Full)
<Degi> Huh that power meter can sample 24 bits at 100 kHz or does it use something else
<Degi> Oh it says 300 kHz 3dB
<bvernoux> yes
<Degi> Wonder if it uses delta sigma
<bvernoux> 1MSPS
<bvernoux> I think it use a delta sigma ;)
<bvernoux> I do not know any SAR with 24bits ;)
<bvernoux> or even > 16 bits ;)
<Degi> I have a sar with 18 and 800 ks/s
<bvernoux> ha ok ;)
<bvernoux> delta sigma are really better anyway
<Degi> Costs like 50 bucks new
<bvernoux> but slowww
<Degi> Why would they be better?
<Degi> Like yeah
<bvernoux> less sensitive and higher bits ;)
<bvernoux> I would like something like that with 10MSPS ;)
<bvernoux> or even 20MSPS
<bvernoux> which does not cost 5KUSD ;)
<Degi> You could probably parallel the 18 bit SARs
<Degi> AD7674
<bvernoux> but it is only 800kSPS ;)
<Degi> I have some 14 bit 65 MS/s too (but the HMCAD can do 14 bit at like 105 MS/s)
<bvernoux> my needs 10 or 20MSPS ;)
<Degi> It has 26 MHz BW
<Degi> Just parallel like 60
<Degi> For the mere price of 300 €
<Degi> Nah wait 3000 €
<bvernoux> how many ENOB ?
<bvernoux> haha ;)
<Degi> 2.5 LSB INL
<bvernoux> so far it is hard to beat integrated ADC of LPC4370 ;)
<bvernoux> price/performance/speed ;)
<Degi> Huh 80 MS/s 12 bit
<bvernoux> It is a shame to see such expensive ADC @TI/AD....
<bvernoux> The price has not changed since > 10years
<Degi> Huh only 9 $
<bvernoux> always crazy expensive
<miek> i still wonder which customer they made that for :p
<miek> it seems so out of place
<bvernoux> it was for RGB SCanner ;)
<bvernoux> for HealthCare
<Degi> Does it have 3 adcs
<bvernoux> no one
<bvernoux> but you can reach 80MSPS ;)
<bvernoux> so it is ok to capture video ;)
<bvernoux> on RGB @>26MHz
<miek> ah, neat
<bvernoux> yes
<bvernoux> When I have discovered this "OVNI" I have started to design AirSpy directly ;)
<bvernoux> even today to have similar ADC integrated all other choice are more expensive
<bvernoux> LPC4370 is less than 5USD ;)
<Degi> ovni? And where is it less than 5?
<bvernoux> with Triple CPU ;)
<bvernoux> it is when you buy it more than 100 ;)
<bvernoux> directly to distributor
<bvernoux> to the factory in fact
<Degi> Can you buy 1 from the factory?
<bvernoux> It is just a shame that they never upgraded it to CortexM7 @ 400MHz ...
<bvernoux> as it is a killer MCU
<bvernoux> especially with the amazing ADC which have more than 9bits ENOB @80MSPS
<bvernoux> the internal noise is ultra low they have made amazing work
<bvernoux> when you think there is tons of PLLs, USB HS ... 3 Cores running in // ...
<Degi> The CDK2307 is cheaper per channel still
<Degi> Wow 500 MHz bandwidth
<Degi> 53 € for 2000 MS/s huh
<Degi> Nah wait 1600 MS/s
<bvernoux> CDK2307D seems obsolete
<Degi> Might be worth paralleling 32 lol
<Degi> Only available at farnell and not in stock
<miek> soo not available :p
<Degi> 90% price drop
<bvernoux> haha JLCPCB just started the production my design are approved ;)
<Degi> neat
<bvernoux> they are really fast compared to others
<bvernoux> and cheap ;)
<bvernoux> I have paid 46USD for the PCB and 46USD for SHipping+Tax ;)
<bvernoux> but they shall arrive in 2 or 3 days ;)
<Degi> 4 layer?
<Degi> Why was it so pricy
<bvernoux> yes 4 layers ;)
<Degi> Did you have some color or thick copper?
<bvernoux> I do not need 4 layers but there is no choice in order to use their RF PCB
<bvernoux> JLC7628
<Degi> I mean 4 layer HASL PbF costs 11.3 $
<bvernoux> in order to obtain 50Ohms ;)
<miek> you need 4 layers to get reasonable gcpw geometry anyway :p
<bvernoux> yes about 14USD per boards
<bvernoux> with a discount ;)
<bvernoux> the one which is expensive is ENIG
<Degi> It costs 11.3 $ for 5 boards
<bvernoux> 24.31USD
<bvernoux> instead of 14.31USD
<bvernoux> for HASL LeadFree...
<Degi> I mean I got 5 boards of ENIG for like 45 $ and it was bigger than 100x100
<bvernoux> here $24.31 for 5 boards with size 76mm*89mm
<Degi> With shipping? DId you have fast build time?
<bvernoux> anyway OSHPark 4 Layers was >100USD for 3 boards ;)
<bvernoux> and 1 design
<Degi> Kinda wanna try ads1263
<bvernoux> and it take 1 month ...
<Degi> Ah you had 2 designs
<bvernoux> 3 designs ;)
<bvernoux> in fact 2 unique
<Degi> Yeah that explains the price heh, kinda wondered
<bvernoux> and 1 other to use ENIG
<bvernoux> to compare ENIG vs HASL LeadFree
<Degi> That adc has 1-128 adjustable gain and 32 bits and like 800 SPS
<Degi> Nah thats the second adc
<bvernoux> Unfortunately they do not provide Immersion Silver ...
<bvernoux> I will have added an other with that else ;)
<Degi> You can probably do that with HASL PbF lol
<bvernoux> yes
<bvernoux> and TG155
<Degi> 1-32 VGA and up to 38400 samples per second at 32 bits heh
<bvernoux> it seems better ;)
<Degi> I mean convert HASL PbF to silver
<Degi> First stick into HCl, then stick into immersion silver bath... Why dont they provide pure copper PCBs tho
<bvernoux> yes they have limited choice :(
<Degi> 1 GOhm input impedance heh
<bvernoux> will be nice to test pure copper
<Degi> Theres some kinda website where you can select what you want and it shows a list of all fabs which can make that with pricse
<bvernoux> even if it is awful for real product as it oxidize ...
<Degi> 100 nV offset voltage
<Degi> Theres copper with organic solder preservatives heh
<Degi> Hmh oxides... Nice harmonic distortion!
<bvernoux> Degi, Yes but JLCPB are ultra fast ;)
<bvernoux> Other are always slower and/or a lot more expensive
<bvernoux> especially for some fast RF Test PCB
<bvernoux> which are just intended for my own use
<Degi> Kinda wanna build a voltmeter with the ads1263 but that would cost a lot for references etc probably lol
<bvernoux> It is to design my next RF products
<Degi> A 32 bit oscilloscope would be neat
<bvernoux> 32bits with 50SPS ;
<bvernoux> ;)
<Degi> Well that one has 38400 SPS
<Degi> Just parallel like 100 and its decent
<bvernoux> yes will be fun ;)
<Degi> And then stick that to an interferometer and tadaa noise generator / very sensitive microphone
<Degi> Can probably hear somebody walking a kilometer away haha
<bvernoux> I think the issue will be to have good power supply ;)
<electronic_eel> the zs1100a-power-meter looks nice, but unfortunately not open hardware
<bvernoux> electronic_eel, yes and a bit too expensive too
<bvernoux> electronic_eel, It will be a killer product for 199USD ;)
<electronic_eel> hmm, if you put a lot of time into development and just have a small number of buyers I think the price is ok
<electronic_eel> it looks better than the julescope, which needs range switching
<Degi> Can we build a scope with this haha
<electronic_eel> but since it is closed, it all depends on the quality of their firmware - and you can't easily improve/fix it without reversing it all first
<Degi> 1300 MHz input bandwidth
<Degi> Sadly 200 € per piece
<bvernoux> electronic_eel, Yes I just say for 199USD he can sell probably 100x more products
<Degi> Awwh only 11 ENOB, why even make it 16 bit at taht point
<bvernoux> Degi, yes Fake 16bits ADC ;)
<bvernoux> Degi, when marketing is too strong ;)
<electronic_eel> bvernoux: I'm not so sure about that. The julescope grabbed some of the market a year or so ago, so I don't know how many people needing such a product are left
<bvernoux> electronic_eel, Yes maybe but I say for a CrowdSupply which is pretty limited audience the best is to sell for price lower
<Degi> Lets do something like that but with the 32 bit ADC
<Degi> Dynamic range from 1 nA to 2 A
<bvernoux> electronic_eel, but it seems clearly better than Joulscope
<electronic_eel> also it is just 6V input, which limits the use severly
<bvernoux> yes 6V max is pretty limited ...
<electronic_eel> you can't use it with 12v or 2S lipo
<bvernoux> If it will be 40V/2A it will be a different story ;)
<bvernoux> to test any HW
<electronic_eel> even if it was 15V it would have been much more usable
<bvernoux> yes especially for 499USD
<bvernoux> it is why I say for such niche market it shall not exceed 199USD
<bvernoux> to have way more guys buying it anyway we will see
<bvernoux> it is made in India ;)
<bvernoux> it is first time I see that
<bvernoux> ha ok the guy name is Prajay Madhavan
<bvernoux> ;)
<Degi> Sadly no fast ADCs with more than 12 ENOB
<bvernoux> Degi, yes it is very hard to find that
<Degi> I kinda wonder what the heck this PCIe slot is doing
<bvernoux> as there is fake 16bits ADC with 10bits ENOB ;)
<Degi> Like just hang some LFSR on the last 6 bits and tadaa 16 bit haha
<bvernoux> also some 12bits ADC with 8bits ENOB ;)
<bvernoux> electronic_eel, anyway what is great with CrowdSupply is price inlcude VAT
<bvernoux> electronic_eel, so there is no surprise when you receive the HW ;)
<electronic_eel> are you sure about that? do they now send DDP?
<bvernoux> yes
<bvernoux> in EU at least
<bvernoux> and USA
<bvernoux> of course ;)
<Degi> Huh whyd they put a spartan on that
<bvernoux> last Time I bought some stuff in China
<bvernoux> and received 10Euros of VAT
<electronic_eel> a few years ago I bought a limesdr mini and it wasn't shipped DDP
<bvernoux> but the most amazing DHL asked me 18.5Euros for advanced of Tax !!
<bvernoux> what a shame
<bvernoux> at the end VAT+DHL = 28.5Euros and there was just something like 40Euros of stuff
<electronic_eel> yeah, the vat handling fees of the big express companies are a known problem
<bvernoux> their handling fees is clearly not advertised
<electronic_eel> but when you look at what they have to do and how complicated the forms and calculations there are I can understand it
<bvernoux> it is why more and more online shop now include VAT
<electronic_eel> it is a lot of manual work
<bvernoux> like mouser, farnell now
<bvernoux> which is nice
<Degi> mouser includes vat?
<bvernoux> electronic_eel, but when you have already paid 40euros shipping it is not normal to have such expenses
<bvernoux> it is included
<bvernoux> Degi, yes
<electronic_eel> but it means that they need a subsidary in every country, which only the biggest companies can do
<bvernoux> haha SmartPhone SCope ;)
<bvernoux> what a stupid things
<Degi> Imagine attaching a telephoto lens with that to a huawei P30 pro
<Degi> Heh get like 1000x zoom or so
<bvernoux> KS is more and more crazy ;)
<Degi> Is there a telephoto lens mount for lasers yet?
<Degi> CRT clock with GPSDO
<Degi> Ah yes, theres the AKL-PT1
<bvernoux> it is like displaying my VNA graph on my Phone ;)
* apo writes more code for hardware he doesn't have
<bvernoux> GPIB interface for Phone ;)
<electronic_eel> oh yeah, we should have GPIB interfaces for smartphones ;)
<azonenberg> lolol
<bvernoux> SFP+ interface for Phone too ;)
<azonenberg> in which direction
<azonenberg> gpib peripheral or host?
<Degi> Caaaan we compile glscopeclient for android
<bvernoux> azonenberg, both ;)
<bvernoux> yes we need glscopeclient for Android ;)
<Degi> Can we have glscopeclient for smart refrigerator?
<Degi> Actually for android TV would be nice
<azonenberg> *IDN?
<azonenberg> Apple,iPhone X,
<Degi> Then I could view waveforms on my 4k TV 😎
<bvernoux> yes could be fun ;)
<bvernoux> it is why it shall be using Qt ;)à
<Degi> I found a 100 MS/s scope on kickstarter with 1 MS of sample depth
<Degi> Like (at least on the ECP5) you wouldn't even need the DRAM, BRAM is sufficient...
<bvernoux> Degi, yes I like their spec ;)
<azonenberg> Degi: We should be cpable of running on OpenGL ES 3.1
<azonenberg> or full GL 4.3
<azonenberg> however the glscopeclient UI is not touch optimized
<Degi> I wanna hang a big TV to my ceiling showing random waveforms for the science lab feel
<electronic_eel> it it one of these things using headphone jacks to plug in the probes?
<Degi> It has BNC
<azonenberg> honestly i think if we ever wanted to do that, i think we would be better off building a from-scratch mobile client using libscopehal and a completely new UI around it
<azonenberg> glscopeclient was intended for a large screen with mouse and keyboard
<Degi> I can attach my smart TV with VNC or so probably
<bvernoux> Degi, Yes SmartSCope ;) for the Price of a full Rigol 1GSPS ;)
<Degi> Or a long HDMI cable
<azonenberg> we could keep all of the protocol decodes etc but i don't think the current UI is practical to port just for ergonomic/UI constraints
<Degi> You can get a rigol for 139 USD?
<Degi> Well 179 $
<bvernoux> Degi, A friend have bought a portable scope like that for 99USD too I said Him for 200USD you have a full Rigol 1GSPS 2Chan with Screen ...
<Degi> Idk the UI seems fine even for touch. Maybe redesign the menus
<Degi> 200 USD for a rigol with 1 GSPS?
<azonenberg> Degi: i rely on right clicks and things like that, and i have fairly small ui elements
<bvernoux> Degi, yes there is special offer on the old ;)
<Degi> Oh
<azonenberg> and scroll wheel, etc
<azonenberg> i do actually want to have PC touchscreen capability
<Degi> Scroll weel can be replaced with pinching
<azonenberg> been eyeing a 24" 1080p touch monitor on amazon to experiment with that
<Degi> Thatd work just fine for time base and voltage
<azonenberg> BUT i want to avoid making it less useful for mouse/keyboard with big chunky UI elements
<Degi> Hmh
<azonenberg> Since that is the primary use case
<Degi> Can we change the UI bigly with the css files?
<azonenberg> adding touch friendly alternatives under the hood like gestures is possible
<azonenberg> The CSS only themes the GTK chrome
<bvernoux> Degi, the DS1052E was 199USD few months ago
<azonenberg> menus, toolbars, dialogs, etc
<bvernoux> Degi, on a special offer
<azonenberg> what it will not change is the custom rendered elements like the channel info boxes, the trigger arrow
<bvernoux> Degi, DS1102Z is 299USD ;)
<Degi> I kinda wanna build a good AWG sometime...
<azonenberg> Degi: that's on my list
<Degi> But theres some kinda inverse correlation between bandwidth and amplitude
<azonenberg> i
<Degi> Like I cant just have 100 Vpp at 1 GHz
<azonenberg> i'd love to collaborate at some point but i wanted to get at least one scopehal instrment out first
<Degi> Hm yes
<bvernoux> Degi, hehe 100V @1GHZ ;)
<Degi> Currently I have to do with other things too
<bvernoux> Degi, it is not common such high voltage at such freq
<azonenberg> and i was looking at 50 ohm output for the AWG, not high impedance / high voltage
<Degi> Yes 50 ohm
<Degi> Still 100 V 1 GHz :P
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> how many kW is that?
<bvernoux> yes 50Ohms AWG is perfect
<Degi> 0.2
<bvernoux> especially reaching >6GHz ;)
<bvernoux> as they are crazy epensive
<Degi> My scope can only output like 2.5 V into 50
<bvernoux> especially with nice filters
<bvernoux> not a bad freq generator like we see on Ebay for 50USD ;)
<bvernoux> with tons of harmonics everywhere
<Degi> Huh, smartscope can only export to .csv and .mat and is pretty pricy for what it does
<Degi> I mean AWG not freq gen
<bvernoux> Degi, ha you want just AWG
<azonenberg> see i would be fine with 10-20 dBm output power
<azonenberg> maybe even a bit less, 18 dBm = 5V p-p
<azonenberg> which is the max for most 50 ohm test equipment
<Degi> 5Vpp is kiinda low tbh
<Degi> Id want to be able to drive TTL at least
<azonenberg> 5Vpp is ttl if you have a dc offset on it, no?
<Degi> Yes if it can do that
<Degi> The rigol cant somehow
<azonenberg> i was targeting dc coupled output with a reasonable offset range
<azonenberg> say max of 5V p-p and +/- 5V offset or something
<Degi> Hmm ok...
<azonenberg> we could then make an external PA/offset stage if we needed more
<Degi> yeah
<azonenberg> If/when i build an AWG, i was planning on using the AD9154
<azonenberg> 8 lane JESD204B interface, 16 bit, 2.4 Gsps
<bvernoux> Yes clearly a nice AWG not too expensive will be great
<azonenberg> Current mode output so we'd need a separate current to voltage output stage
<bvernoux> I do not have any
<bvernoux> only RF Gen ;)
<azonenberg> I dont either
<Degi> My scope has one
<bvernoux> Which are clearly not usable for AWG stuff
<azonenberg> i have 300 kHz - 6 GHz sine generator as part of the VNA
<azonenberg> but i cant do anything but unmodulated tones
<bvernoux> azonenberg, yes it is RF related only
<bvernoux> azonenberg, My Agilent E4432B have an AWG option but it is defective anyway I doubt it will be useful as the software to load waveform is horrible & obsolete
<azonenberg> scopehal actually has APIs for function generators (not arbitrary yet) and in theory supports the wavesurfer 3000's integrated function gen
<azonenberg> (although that may have bitrotted as i no longer own a ws3k and can't test)
<bvernoux> Degi, 10GHz 30USD USB SCope ;)
<Degi> Its 600 usd
<bvernoux> Degi, Even 10GSPS is hard at that price ;)
<Degi> Its a sampling scope
<bvernoux> yes so it is not an Oscilloscope ;)
<bvernoux> it was advertized as Oscilloscope ;)
<azonenberg> bvernoux: thoughts on the ad9154 for an awg?
<Degi> Its a sampling oscilloscope...
<bvernoux> ha yes I see on 2nd line => USB Sampling Oscilloscope
<azonenberg> we'd get four channels of 16 bit dac out of it at 2.4 Gsps so nyquist bandwidth over 1 GHz
<bvernoux> azonenberg, yes it is a nice DAC
<Degi> The ADRF6720 are external and not part of it right?
<azonenberg> It's only $120 on digikey too
<azonenberg> Degi: yes
<azonenberg> it doesnt do any QAM internally
<azonenberg> however it could easily be turned into a dual qam signal source with external components
<azonenberg> This siggen would need to be kintex7 based and probably have a 1G ethernet interface
<azonenberg> streaming of raw waveform data wouldnt be possible without a much beefier FPGA and if i use 8x GTX for the JESD204 I won't have any left for 10G ethernet
<bvernoux> Supports input data rates up to 1 GSPS
<azonenberg> unless i move to something bigger than the 7k160t which is the largest kintex supported by free vivado
<Degi> Yeah what does that mean
<azonenberg> i wonder if that means it does interpolation internally and you can't give it data faster than that
<azonenberg> but the dac runs faster? let me look
<azonenberg> even so a 1 Gsps AWG would be pretty nice
<Degi> Uhm yeah look at page 4
<bvernoux> I suspect it is what is used in Rigol AWG
<bvernoux> the spec seems to match well
<azonenberg> you think rigol's awg is using jesd204?
<bvernoux> their new
<bvernoux> their design is awfull ;)
<bvernoux> I really hate it is like toys
<Degi> Heh yeah
<Degi> Just give me a square casing heh
<bvernoux> yes
<bvernoux> they have tried to do something and it is really ugly
<miek> it'd go well with a "gaming" wireless router
<azonenberg> anyway so it looks like the jesd204 maxes out at around 10 Gbps on the ad9154, which means 80 Gbps across all 8 lanes
<bvernoux> their old versions => 14 Bit Waveform Generators
<Degi> That 10 GHz scope person planned to build 500 units, that's quite a big niche
<bvernoux> was very nice in comparison
<bvernoux> I speak about the look & feel
<azonenberg> with 16 bits and 8b10b that comes out to 4 Gsps total if my math is right
<azonenberg> across four channels is 1 Gsps
<azonenberg> So yeah that all lines up nicely
<bvernoux> something like DG4000
<azonenberg> we could get much better than the dg4000
<azonenberg> this dac can do double that sample rate
<azonenberg> and four channels
<Degi> Dont really like that modern scopes are so short
<Degi> Bad fot stacking
<azonenberg> Degi: i love it, because it makes them 2-post rackmount capable
<Degi> Woow gaming routers are actually a thing
<Degi> Hm yes
<azonenberg> try racking an older scope and it will tip over unless you have full rails on a 4 post
<Degi> If the rackmount hardware wouldnt cost a few hundred, I'd probaby get it heh
<bvernoux> will be nice ;)
<azonenberg> my modern lecroy stuff can be racked comfortably on a fairly shallow rack
<azonenberg> which leaves more bnech space
<azonenberg> bvernoux: yes the dg5000 looks more competitive with what i wanted to build
<Degi> I mean if we dont have a display, we can probably make it pretty small if its only 4 channels
<azonenberg> Except quad channel
<azonenberg> Degi: i was planning 1U with a not-full-width PCB
<azonenberg> to permit a benchtop case as well
<Degi> Hmh okay
<azonenberg> i.e. it could be made less than 19" wide
<Degi> Hmh yeah an alternative as big as the pcb would be neat
<Degi> For protableizing it
<azonenberg> i actually am thinking of standardizing on a half width 1U or 2U form factor for some stuff
<azonenberg> so you can rack two side by side in a chassis or benchtop them individually
<Degi> Something you can take to a congress without giant luggage
<azonenberg> like R&S does with the HMC804x and HMC801x stuff
<azonenberg> As far as memory depth goes, 4 chans * 16 bits * 1 Gsps is 64 Gbps
<azonenberg> which means we should easily be able to fit the bandwidth needed for that into a single ddr3 sodimm
<Degi> Yes
<azonenberg> we could have 1GB/channel of AWG memory :D
<bvernoux> azonenberg, yes will be amazing
<Degi> We could make a x32 PCIe card hahaha
<azonenberg> So let me add this project to the roadmap
<azonenberg> since i think we all agree it's going to happen, we can figure out details later
<bvernoux> fun things is the output can go to a Mixer for higher freq ;)
<bvernoux> to do also RF stuff haha
<Degi> And then into a TWT
<azonenberg> bvernoux: that would be a separate standalone system IMO
<azonenberg> I'd make the AWG differential output too
<bvernoux> ha yes great
<azonenberg> so you have four differential outputs and can terminate _N if you dont need them
<azonenberg> then you can just run SMA-SMA cables into a separate I/Q mixer and upconverter if you want an RF signal source
<azonenberg> i personally would be more interested in using it for baseband stuff
<bvernoux> yes will be very nice
<bvernoux> me too ;)
<azonenberg> simulating lower speed signals like 100mbit ethernet with various signal distortions etc
<bvernoux> but a good AWG is very nice to test electronic stuff too
<azonenberg> Yeah
<Degi> And TWT amplifiers
<azonenberg> I figure if i have a sine source to 6 GHz and a full arbitrary to 500 MHz i'll be in pretty good shape
<bvernoux> I still plan to build a compact YIG FIlter )
<Degi> Didnt bvernoux find that one good 11 GHz mixeer or so
<bvernoux> But I need more details on how to do the driver
<Degi> For the magnet?
<bvernoux> as I'm pretty sure a good one from 2GHz to 18GHz can be put in a 20cmx20cm*10cm box ;)
<Degi> I think its mostly a constant current source
<bvernoux> yes to drive the YIG with heater ...
<Degi> Heater?
<bvernoux> yes there is heater
<Degi> Well two constant current sources
<azonenberg> What do you think of FLEMING as the signal generator?
<Degi> Heater is probably fine with a class D modulatedo ne
<bvernoux> as the YIG shall be stable ;)
<azonenberg> after the inventor of the vacuum tube
<Degi> Heh nice
<bvernoux> main issue is power consumption
<Degi> Maybe use a peltier
<bvernoux> I have not found something better than YIG for ultra sharp filter
<bvernoux> with such tunable band
<bvernoux> from 2GHz to 18Ghz or more
<Degi> Maybe cooling helps
<azonenberg> Degi: btw i think MAXWELL and FLEMING will have a *lot* in common architecturally
<Degi> Is maxwell fleming^-1
<azonenberg> no maxwell is the LA
<Degi> Ah yes
<Degi> If you want a better filter, get a superconducting cylinder where one end is height adjustable
<azonenberg> But both will be an xc7k160t with all gtx used for high speed io, all HP banks used for a ddr3 sodimm, in the same 1U rack case, with the same stm32 based control system
<azonenberg> speaking of which, we will have a lot of OSERDES unused on FLEMING
<azonenberg> so i am considering throwing a "free" digital signal generator into the mix
<Degi> Hmh yeah
<azonenberg> a bunch of MMCX or SMA outputs with 1.25 Gbps LVDS and maybe some lower speed LVCMOS
<Degi> Maybe something cheaper
<Degi> ribbon cable socket or so idk
<azonenberg> we could add some lower speed connectors too
<azonenberg> actually we could do 1.5 Gbps
<Degi> Or a pcie slot hahaha
<azonenberg> because FLEMING will need a -3 speed fpga
<bvernoux> Anyway for those which are interested I will open my KC908 when I receive it ;)
<azonenberg> i think
<bvernoux> there is lot of interesting things inside for RF stuff ;)
<Degi> Wear gloves
<azonenberg> need to fine tune that later on during the design
<azonenberg> but it's on the roadmap now, will push later on
<azonenberg> also assuming we use a 4GB SODIMM
<azonenberg> that's 1GB per channel or 512M points per channel of AWG :D
<Degi> Why not more heh
<azonenberg> because i think when you go bigger you need to be dual rank
<azonenberg> which hurts Fmax for the 7 series controller
<azonenberg> it's faster in point to point mode
<azonenberg> anyway so given the dram read latency and refreshes
<azonenberg> i am probably going to want to do a prefetch of some sort
<azonenberg> with a block ram fifo to cover latency bursts. We'll figure that out later
<azonenberg> I also plan to build a DDS based sine, ramp, etc generator in there as well
<bvernoux> yes DDS is a must have too
<bvernoux> for fast signal generator
<azonenberg> and of course have trigger input for syncing the sweep to other systems, trigger output for syncing DDS/repeating AWG pattern to an external scope
<azonenberg> 10 MHz refclk in
<azonenberg> all the usual high end accessory ports
<bvernoux> yes definitely 10MHz refclk ;)
<bvernoux> for all instruments
<azonenberg> Yes. no matter how low end
<azonenberg> it's stupid not to
<bvernoux> yes
<azonenberg> anyway i'm not fully out of bed and dressed for the day (yes it's 14:00 here, but it's the weekend during quarantine :P)
<azonenberg> So i think i'm gonna hop in the shower and find some breakfast :p
<bvernoux> hehe
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg pushed 2 commits to master [+11/-0/±1]
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg 288238d - Updated README/design notes with signal generator concept ideas
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg 76f216f - Initial skeleton of MAXWELL main board
<bvernoux> bye see you
bvernoux has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<Degi> Woow I found a datasheet so old it advertises 500 kbps and 2.456 Mbps as high speed
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2]
<_whitenotifier-f> [starshipraider] azonenberg d6be583 - Final version of sfp-to-sma after signoff review