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<stellar-slack>
<raymens> Has there been any thought on creating a merged action of create-account and send-payment to make this more seamless if you don't care if it exists or not?
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<raymens> Or this could of course be simple addition to one of the SDKs :)
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<fim2> I was told that the old version of Stellar had transfer fee support, but the new version doesn't. way this change?
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<fim2> why
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<scott> @fim2: we removed transfer fees to simplify the protocol. Our hope is for the stellar protocol to become an internet standard, and transfer fees in particular added a ton of complication, especially when combined with trading.
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<scott> The don’t think the benefit is worth the complication
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<raymens> What's the difference between a transaction fee and transfer fee?
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<jed> transfer fee allowed gateway's to charge anytime thier credit was used.
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<jed> I'm not sure what the redline represents?
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<raymens> Sending the 100 USD from Issuer X and 100 USD from Issuer Y to Issuer X
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<raymens> 200*
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<scott> Provided that there is an order book that trades USD/X for USD/Y, you could make a transactions with two payment operations in it, one paying with your USD/X and another using a PathPaymentOp to convert the USD/Y to USD X
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<scott> So, if your scenario is comprehensive, then no, it cannot be done. But provided there is a market for trading USD/Y for USD/X, then yes
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<raymens> Thanks :)
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<jed> also if issuerX trusts issuerY you can do this
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<raymens> Yeah the notion of shared asset codes made me question it
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<fim2> Hi scott. It makes it more difficult to make easy money for the gateway. That mean more manually work for the Gateway and higher fee for clients
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<jed> fim2: They can still charge per transfer by either tracking it or doing some fancy multi-sig thing but yes charging per transfer is more complicated for clients. but there are plenty of other places gateways can charge.
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<scott> Perfect opportunity for some enterprising person to build an open source project for tracking transactions ;)
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<fim2> hi jed can you somehow automatic take a fee every time the digital gold change wallets?
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<jed> with multisig you can
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<dzham> But then you need support for that in a wallet
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<fim2> øh ok. What it multisig. I am accountant
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<fim2> hi dzham you can built it inside the wallet?
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<dzham> yes, that’s a possibility
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<fim2> ok well then this is the solution :)
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<jed> A simple solution is just to charge more on deposit or withdrawal
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<scott> yeah, for example, you could track a payments for an account and accumulate a fee in your gateway’s database. At withdrawal time, you pay the withdrawer an amount less the accrued fees. IMO it would be fairly simple to implement a model like that
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<donovan> What if an account only ever makes deposits and pays other accounts, i.e. remittance?
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<scott> I imagine if an account goes too deep into the fees, you freeze their trustline
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<scott> or you take the fees at deposit time as well
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<dzham> or you just do manual demurrage.. i.e., you buy and sell units instead, where each unit has a decaying value…
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<donovan> Demurrage was a nightmare on Ripple :)
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<dzham> @fim2 is going to do market making themselves, so they just account for the decaying value when they place the orders
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<donovan> Freicon (dreams of) :)
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<dzham> @donovan: I know, because of how they did the orders.. and because the wallet has to calculate the current value
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<dzham> I’m saying skip that, just buy/sell the units
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<donovan> A "demurraged” IOU needs an embedded date thought, to track the reduction in value over time?
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<dzham> but all units can have the same starting date
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<dzham> then when you buy/sell, you adjust accordingly
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<dzham> i.e., 1 UNIT = 1*e^(-k*t) troy oz AU
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<dzham> if you buy 1 oz AU, that might translate to 1.5 units depending on when you buy it
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<donovan> Yeah, sounds great in theory, but the practice of market-making and trading such a currency means you need to readjust your offers on every ledger to compensate for the reduction in value, when it is traded against non-demurraged currencies.
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<stellar-slack>
<dzham> yeah, but you’d have to do that anyway, since you want to track the realtime gold price
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<donovan> Well, that is another pricing input, but not sure gold prices fluctuate at per-ledger granularity.
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<dzham> and we’re talking approximately 1,6 cents decay for one ounce ($1175) per day at 0,5% per annum, so pretty insignificant
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<dzham> Well, you *can* make assets that behave like that, non-tradeable/non-transferable, but it’s not as elegant
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<donovan> Another way of looking at it, is that it just a lot easier to do the calculations for arbitrage/trading/market-making when you don’t have to take into account time-based depreciation. GBI dumped their demurraged Gold issuance on Ripple, and just went with straight forwards units. But Ripple has transfer fees :)
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<donovan> And also no trading volume on Gold/Silver/Platinum :)
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<donovan> I guess the real question is whether there is a lot of people in the world who actually want to buy precious metals on a cryptocurrency network.
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<donovan> Fascinating fact here in the UK. Most of the vaults moved from the City of London to be nearer to Heathrow due to the fact that people who held metal in vaults now want to transfer it from one jurisdiction to another by plane, frequently.
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<dzham> I think the problem in Ripple was that everyone was supposed to continuously update the IOU amount. Instead of just saying, you bought one unit, it’s going to continue being one unit. but the currency rate is changing
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<donovan> Well, that is how it was stored under the hood.
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<dzham> Yeah, but you were supposed to display the current underlying value of it. That’s what messed it up, IMO
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<dzham> Airports are convenient on more ways than just transportation. Goods in airports are usually tax free, if they never clear customs
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<donovan> I just want to be able to exchange between USD/EUR/GBP and the payments to be able to start and end with a bank account, without having to use a bank. That was the original dream. Seems to be long lost :)
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<fim2> hi jed you cannot let the people who make the withdrawing paying for all the other users. They will refuse.
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<fim2> the cost of the gateway need to be shared by all the users else it will not work
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<fim2> Let us say you will send 1000 dollars. You convert to digital gold first but must pay 5 pct. fee to the gateway. Then it is more cheap to use the normal payment system. But if you can charge 0,1 pct. and let all the wallets user pay 0,1 pct. Then the gateway will get the same amount and everybody save compared to the banking system
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<sacarlson> you have the option of trading the asset instead of withdrawing it
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<fim2> does it help the gateway
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<sacarlson> no it kills the gateway as at some point with good trust we will need them less
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<sacarlson> but they will still hold the original assets so can act on them and loan them out as banks normaly do
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<sacarlson> banks normaly only run with 10% liquid assets
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<sacarlson> a gateway could in this case be considered a bank
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<fim2> When do mean some fartional banking?
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<fim2> fractional
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<fim2> I will not in anyway be part of this system
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<sacarlson> look at the books of all banks in USA open books on the stock market they will show the liquid asset holdings
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<fim2> it is fraud if you ask me. You lend out something you do not have
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<sacarlson> it's legal practice in usa
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<fim2> i know
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<sacarlson> I'm not saying it's a good thing it's just the facts as I knew them. things have changed
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<fim2> It is not a good thing belive me.
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<garth> Almost all US dollars are made through loans. That is how the money supply is created. No loans. No money supply. It is a great system for the profitable sectors of the economy. Not so great for the non profit sectors. Banks create the money supply when they make loans. Every single dollar was created out of thin air. Like it or not.
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<sacarlson> correct garth
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<sacarlson> it's just on faith.
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<sacarlson> I loan my friend a beer today knowing he will buy me one tomaro
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<stellar-slack>
<garth> This is my favorite topic but may be more appropriate to have it in general?
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<scott> +1
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