00:34 <sorear> excite

00:44 <emily> I should finish off and upstream my blinkenlights applet :p

00:44 <emily> (no youtube, though, and I already have one)

01:35 <sorear> are the mass production units going to be ready when the blogs and youtubes come out or are there going to be a lot of frustrated viewers

01:36 <whitequark> i just realized that the phrase "mass production units" has interesting connotations

01:48 <emily> sorear: crowdsupply has a sign-up-for-updates link

01:49 <emily> i don't know whether that's a Metric, but it's at least a thing.

01:49 <emily> whether glasgow ought to be hyped up pre-release, /shrug I feel like it already has been among a certain set of people at least

01:50 <whitequark> almost 1k people signed up

01:51 <emily> you say "almost 1k" like that won't shift an order of magnitude or two if a few youtubers do videos.

01:51 <whitequark> i think that's a *lot*

01:52 <whitequark> even at 10% conversion it would be challenging to keep up with support, I think

01:52 <emily> 10% sounds optimistic.

01:52 <emily> ...also if you're thinking of glasgow as an n=100 scale project then you should probably reassess and start delegating a lot more.

01:53 <emily> you should set up an nmigen discourse and then completely ignore it. it will be an attractor for support questions you don't want to deal with and encourage other people to step in and form a communnity to offer support.

01:53 <whitequark> given that people do private runs of 20 boards at once, maybe not that optimistic

01:53 <emily> totally serious.

01:53 <whitequark> there's a forum

01:54 <whitequark> it's in the topic.

01:54 <emily> there is? oh right.

01:54 <emily> ok but the people whose support requests you want to avoid will not use that since it's not discourse. only half joking.

01:54 <whitequark> i never got it to send me notifications so it's kind of like that.

01:54 <whitequark> i don't want to avoid them exactly

01:54 <whitequark> it's more that i have a lot of responsibilities

02:11 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] samlittlewood opened pull request #185: Add applet for programming/reading chipcon CC111x & CC251x parts - https://git.io/JvB6W

02:14 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark commented on pull request #185: Add applet for programming/reading chipcon CC111x & CC251x parts - https://git.io/JvB64

02:40 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvB6h

02:40 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvB6j

02:40 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvBie

02:40 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvBiv

02:40 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvBif

02:40 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvBiJ

02:50 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] Failure. The Travis CI build failed - https://travis-ci.org/GlasgowEmbedded/glasgow/builds/652793041?utm_source=github_status&utm_medium=notification

04:07 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] samlittlewood synchronize pull request #185: Add applet for programming/reading chipcon CC111x & CC251x parts - https://git.io/JvB6W

04:23 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] Failure. The Travis CI build failed - https://travis-ci.org/GlasgowEmbedded/glasgow/builds/652817403?utm_source=github_status&utm_medium=notification

05:22 <whitequark> i wonder if i can make a USB device that handles ECM, EEM and NCM on the same bulk ep pair

05:23 <whitequark> i think that could be done in a compliant way

06:03 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvBMQ

08:54 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] v-novaltd reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvB9V

08:58 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] v-novaltd reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvB9V

09:02 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] samlittlewood reviewed pull request #185 commit - https://git.io/JvB9S

09:29 <noopwafel> oh nice, I was just fighting CCLoader last night again, and now I don't even have to write my own applet :o

09:31 <noopwafel> whitequark: if you anything for one-wire (you mentioned you did in #174), any chance you could push that somewhere?

09:34 <noopwafel> I also wanted LPC, I see there's an arch/lpc.py -> would I just be pointlessly reproducing existing non-pushed code?

09:34 <noopwafel> (not that it really matters I guess)

10:01 <gruetzkopf> oh nice coincidence

15:08 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] DurandA opened issue #186: Invalid revision value after flashing EEPROM - https://git.io/JvBpS

16:00 <_whitenotifier-3> [glasgow] whitequark commented on issue #186: Invalid revision value after flashing EEPROM - https://git.io/JvBjQ

16:03 <noopwafel> in case it helps anyone: my one-wonky-pin problems seem mostly resolved by replacing the level shifter

18:12 <ktemkin> re: support and mass production: I can provide some insight based on my own experiences, if you want

18:14 <ktemkin> (as well as my historic impressions of how much things like youtube/media plugs translate to e.g. people getting units)

18:22 <ktemkin> I can tell you that even if people wind up buying >10k units in a CrowdSupply, a lot of those units are going to sit unused for a while; since people's desire to _have_ things is almost always way more than their desire to _use_ them

19:14 <pjustice> Or their sense that they might only get one chance to _obtain_ one precedes their available time to _apply_ on to a project.

19:14 <pjustice> *one

19:19 <esden> Speaking from personal perspective, I get things for many different reasons. 1) get it to use it, but I come around or not to using it 2) getting it to maybe use in the future 3) getting it to support the project, with the intention to use or not

19:21 <esden> And yes from my experiance, even with a big amount of hardware out there it does not mean it will result in big amount of support requests. If one gets questions it is mostly due to lack of documentation, or unclear documentation. There is a very small percentage that are genuine issues with the hardware or software.

19:22 <esden> the smoother the experiance (plug in, follow instructions, works) the smaller the requests amount, also the more the tool is targetted to technical people and less to hobbyists and children the more people try to figure things out on their own.

19:23 <esden> so if the focus is to minimize the glasgow support burden, the more "packaged" and binary released it needs to become.

19:24 <esden> Or at least the installation process needs to be very well documented and tested with any possible OS and python release a user might have.

19:25 <esden> which seems most painful on windows as far as I can tell... although I ran into fair amount of trouble on linux too

19:26 <esden> mainly because of some dangling installation here and there and not using venv because I did not know better (I am honestly a python noob, and a lot of users will likely be the same)

19:28 <esden> I am not sure what the correct remedies and guard rails should or could be possible.

20:20 <electronic_eel> I bought several boards on crowd supply or similar platforms that I did not use as planned yet

20:21 <electronic_eel> The reason for buying them was mostly delivery time and future stock uncertainty

20:22 <electronic_eel> I had to buy them now to get them several month in the future. So if I may need them for future project x I had to buy now

20:23 <electronic_eel> also I didn't know for sure that the seller will keep them in stock in the future of if he will lose interest

20:24 <electronic_eel> If I knew I could get them within 3 days or maybe a week in the future, I wouldn't have bought them

20:28 <esden> electronic_eel: yeah that does match a lot of what I am seeing

21:02 <ktemkin> esden: you’d be surprised how many support inquiries I see on a day to day basis that are just “hey, yeah, your USB cable lacks D+/D-“

21:02 <esden> Ohh yeah that is a classic

21:03 <esden> "so how many usb cables have you tried?"

21:03 <ktemkin> this is one of the reasons we’re still shipping micro-B cables in 2020; even though everyone has one

21:06 <ktemkin> that all said; a couple thousand units of something marketed as a _tool_ is enough to generate what feels like an overwhelming amount of support traffic for a developer

21:07 <electronic_eel> I suspect a lot of support for glasgow will be people who have borked their python install somehow and so can't get the software installed properly

21:09 <ktemkin> (I don’t even -do- user support; and just getting the notifications for support things is sometimes enough to leave me overwhelmed with the sheer amount of it)

21:10 <ktemkin> managing support for a tool is hard

21:11 <electronic_eel> ktemkin: maybe disable the support notifications, let the support emails be automatically moved into a subfolder or similar?

21:12 <ktemkin> eh; I’ll just stew in my guilt complex~

21:12 <electronic_eel> I get a lot of emails at work and wouldn't be able to concentrate if I hadn't my 50+ serverside sort rules...

21:13 <ktemkin> I just ignore mine >.>

21:14 <ktemkin> my point is more: effort+attention definitely has to be paid to creating an environment that’s not going to make a project into a chore / guilt-source

21:15 <electronic_eel> yeah, the not-chore part is important.

21:16 <ktemkin> if anything, that’s probably going to be the hardest thing to get right in going to crowdsupply

23:04 <awygle> ktemkin: have you used crowdsupply before? (sorry, i'm not hugely familiar with your body of work)

23:13 <tnt> Ok, so the fact that jtag-probe does nothing by default and doesn't print a warning if you don't give it a command (like 'scan') is pretty confusing.

23:13 <tnt> I just reworked a BGA _twice_ because I thought it wasn't getting detected ...

23:14 <tnt> (and yes obviously I'm a idiot ...)

23:16 <hell__> ... that sounds painful