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<noobly>
there's no emacs channel right?
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<whoman>
noobly: there is
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<pjb>
However, ##lisp might be more indicated for emacs lisp questions, if you don't want it to be drowned in unrelated dribble.
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<stacksmith>
But not elisp, for god's sakes...
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<mrm>
I got halfway through typing ",salespitch #emacs" before remembering that fsbot isn't here.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<st_iron>
good morning beach
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<beach>
st_iron: What's up?
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<st_iron>
wrapping up my macros
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<fdund>
is there any money in writing commercial CL libraries?
<Fare>
hi!
<Fare>
fdund, probably not that much
<Fare>
fdund, although, someone is getting paid to develop CLIM, so that's one thing.
<Fare>
maybe I should go around begging money for ASDF, as was suggested by Dave C
<fdund>
i was thinking more in the direction of dual licensing, like Qt (and others) do
<fdund>
GPL open source, with a separate one for commercial closed source
<easye>
fare: I thought you quit ASDF?
<easye>
But the asdf-3.3 planning code was certainly a non-trivial task.
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<Fare>
easye, I'm glad at least one person here appreciates that
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<easye>
I *always* appreciate your work on ASDF, even if I disagree with parts.
<Fare>
It was months of work. As hard as ASDF 3.0, though less work because portable.
<Fare>
easye, I'm curious what parts you disagree with.
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<easye>
If you wanted to put out the proverbial cup, the CLF would definitely help with the support for a crowd source campaign.
<Fare>
I'm glad that someone has enough appreciation to actually understand and disagree!
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<Fare>
That's what Dave C suggested, except he said even if I stopped contributing, my work was worth an appreciation fund or something.
<easye>
Fare: No specifics at the moment off the top of my head. I guess the most intelligent comment I can make is that sometimes you seem to make things more complicated than needed for the majority user.
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<easye>
But that is really unfair for me to say with debating a specific api changes or something, so practically a worthless comment.
<Fare>
I'm trying to simplify things for the user, at least in the common case.
<easye>
I know you are, and I appreciate that.
<Fare>
it is true that there are some quite advanced usage patterns hidden in there.
<Fare>
and sometimes bad ideas that are better removed later
<easye>
Look, it is very unfair for me to wave my hands here without specifics.
<easye>
Let's leave it at warm praise, and when I write something up, we'll take that up like we always do?
<easye>
fare: you coming to ELS 2018?
<Fare>
of my own not-so-good ideas that I committed and later deprecated or removed, require-system, load-system-operation, previous iterations of uiop/configuration.
<Fare>
the syntax-control still isn't in.
<Fare>
easye: probably not, though I'm still trying to find an excuse to go.
<Fare>
Maybe if I can convince my CEO that it'll be a good place to recruit...
<easye>
Please do. I always enjoy chatting with you.
<Fare>
except that plan A will be to build in OCaml, not in Lisp.
<Fare>
Ah, I could come to recruit for my brother's project...
<easye>
I am gonna take the time on my own dime, instead of trying to convince my CEO.
<Fare>
going on my own dime might be possible... if I have a dime of my own.
* easye
snortws.
<Fare>
maybe I ought to do that ASDF fundraising
<easye>
Sure. You can contact either me or Dave Cooper with questions. We have the basic infrastructure ready from "Quicklisp out of beta", but it is a bit creaky and acl specific in my opinion.
<Fare>
but I'll have nothing new to present at ELS. Maybe a 5 minute state-of-ASDF, or a 5 minute "Come have fun with Gerbil!"
<easye>
*you* my friend are the presentation. It always great to socialize with you to see what's going on in your brainn.
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<fdund>
is a lisp OS still an ambition?
<beach>
For me it is.
<fdund>
good
<fdund>
:)
<beach>
And for the people working on Mezzano, but that's a bit different.
* easye
uses Emacs in lieu of a LispOS beta.
<fdund>
i've been reading the tunes archives -- anything else like that out there?
<Fare>
fdund, yes, TUNES is still an ambition!
<fdund>
seems completely dead
<fdund>
oh you're the fare in fare.tunes.org
<beach>
fdund: I am working on several projects on that list. The most important one being the underlying Common Lisp implementation to be used as a basis for the operating system: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lisp-system.html
<beach>
fdund: That project is also being worked on by Bike and heisig, and part of it is used in the Clasp compiler.
<AnononA>
now im i right to believe that this is what my keyboard supports for writing macros in the macro editor
<AnononA>
it says Go-lisp
<AnononA>
googles version of lisp
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<beach>
AnononA: Why would you need special keyboard support for writing macros?
<beach>
AnononA: Also, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. If you want to discuss other Lisp dialects, you may want to visit the specific channels for those dialects, or ##lisp for general discussions about Lisp-like languages.
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<random-nick>
AnononA: I don't think lisp macros have anything to do with keyboard macros
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<_death>
AnononA: doesn't look like "googles version of lisp", just another toy lisp implemented in go
<nydel>
good morning all
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<Satou>
Hello, I am really really new to Lisp, currently getting introduced to a CLisp course. Do you guys use it on a daily basis? if yes, what sort of projects do you do with it?
<nydel>
Satou: welcome. please consider a intro to commonlisp book. i would recommend Practical Common Lisp, here for you: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ -- we use LISP for everything. everything.
<jackdaniel>
Satou: Clisp is one of Common Lisp implementations
<jackdaniel>
generally language is referred as CL or Common Lisp
<nydel>
jackdaniel is right. also many prefer SBCL to CLISP. that is steel bank common lisp. i prefer it.
<Satou>
I understand that there are a lot of Lisp dialects, and Clojure and Scheme seem to be the ones most used
<nydel>
i doubt there is any evidence that clojure or scheme are more used than commonlisp.
<Satou>
maybe not, as I am new to this language and to functional programming, I might be wrong.
<nydel>
if you're picking out a lisp, try /join #lispcafe ... we are commolisp here.
<Satou>
thanks nydel
<random-nick>
common lisp implementations are not separate dialects
<jackdaniel>
Satou: Common Lisp is a not functional (it is multiparadigm)
<Satou>
I know that functional doesn't really depend on the language, you could write functional in anything.
<jackdaniel>
and CL is a standard which is implemented by: ccl, clisp, ecl, sbcl and more
<nydel>
jackdaniel: i always wished someone had told me "CL != FUNCTIONAL PROGRAMMING" in the very beginning.
<jackdaniel>
heh
<nydel>
Satou: you can write functional programming in CL for all intents and purposes.
<nydel>
i don't know a thing about scheme or clojure. those are dialects other than CL. as random-nick said, the different CL implementations listed by jackdaniel are not different dialects.
<Satou>
I'm also interested in what are sort of the limits of CL. I've understood to some extent how the usage of variables could lead to side effects.
<jackdaniel>
scheme has more focus on encouraging functional programming (scheme too), usual Common Lisp program mutates state a lot
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell Satou about gentle
<minion>
Satou: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
<random-nick>
but do note that there are big differences between CL implementations, just like with any other programming language
<Satou>
thanks guys!
<nydel>
however CL does adhere to a standard across implementations. a topic we will not discuss at the moment! because it's saturday, baby!
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<nydel>
best of luck to you Satou
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<beach>
Satou: Common Lisp is a somewhat unusual choice if what you want to do is functional programming. By restricting yourself to that particular paradigm, you are not using the full potential of the language. And people who want to use functional programming typically choose a purely (or nearly so) functional language like Haskell or ML.
<Satou>
beach, Oddly enough, I'm in uni, and my FP class is using common lisp
<beach>
OK, fair enough.
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<Satou>
One thing that motivates me to learn CL is what Eric S. Raymond said about Lisp
<beach>
Sure.
<nydel>
cliki.net is a good resource for packaged examples of things people do with commonlisp currently(ish). also quicklisp.org will teach you how to quickly load most systems listed at cliki. you might get a sense of the 'limits' (rather something like 'topography') of the language that way.
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<Shinmera>
_death: I can't reproduce that Staple error you got. Other package inferred systems compile for me.
<Shinmera>
I also can't make sense of it.
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<_death>
investigating
<Shinmera>
The screenshot tells me that asdf:system-source-directory somehow returns a system, rather than a path.
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<_death>
no, it returns NIL..
<Shinmera>
Ah.
<Shinmera>
That's easy enough to work around.
<_death>
asdf manual says "ASDF does not provide a turnkey solution for locating data (or other miscellaneous) files that are distributed together with the source code of a system. Programmers can use system-source-directory to find such files. Returns a pathname object. The system-designator may be a string, symbol, or ASDF system object."
<_death>
no mention of NIL there..
<Shinmera>
Yeah, it's a plain function too, so it's not like something could have customised its behaviour directly.
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<_death>
every file has its own system, but a file's system (type package-inferred-system) has its source-file slot set to NIL
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<Shinmera>
Huh. Weird, since I tested it with another thing that supposedly uses package-inferred-systems and that worked fine.
<Shinmera>
At least with the toplevel system.
<_death>
yes, with the toplevel system it works fine
<Shinmera>
Ah, alright.
<Shinmera>
I added a check for null-ness, so it shouldn't crash there anymore.
<_death>
system-source-file docstring is "Return the source file in which system is defined." .. and I guess it's nil because there is no source file as these systems are generated at runtime
<Shinmera>
In order to make Staple well-usable for p-i-s there needs to be some more work done, but it should at least not crash anymore.
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<_death>
works ok now.. also, better wrap "~&~%The following systems could not be processed cleanly:~%~a" with ~@[...~]
<Shinmera>
Thanks for confirming
<Shinmera>
working on a new portacle release now
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<Shinmera>
not much in it though, just a fresher sbcl, and some minor fixes/resets.
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* Shinmera
fires up some VMs
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<learning101>
I am in a dilemma. I recently got a job in javascript profile and I have to become good in it, but what i really want is to learn lisp or haskell. Is it possible to learn both simultaneously?
<flip214>
learning101: do lisp in your free time
<_death>
you seem to be asking about your own psychology
<cheers>
learning101: learn haskell, then transition into purescript! :D
<cheers>
it compiles to js
<cheers>
transpiles*
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<beach>
flip214: Thanks for the feedback on the papers. I think we will work on it this coming Wednesday.
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<flip214>
beach: you're welcome! no hurry, ELS is still 5 weeks away.
<beach>
Right. I need to get cracking on the papers I agreed to review, though.
<flip214>
I've done 12 up to now... let's hope I'll get a few more done tonight.
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<flip214>
But I have to admit I cheated - I read 9 or so before the submission deadline and was lucky, only 2 of them got updated.
<flip214>
(hooray for diffpdf! ;)
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* Shinmera
is getting antsy
<flip214>
why, or what for?
<Shinmera>
People looking over my stuff always makes me antsy
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<flip214>
I'm sorry. Or is that about your household?
<Shinmera>
No, about the papers?
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<flip214>
ah, okay. I already apologized, didn't I?
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<Shinmera>
Well, there's nothing to apologise for, heh.
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<flip214>
perhaps, if it makes you uncomfortable? but yeah, I meant to be kind.
<flip214>
feedback is SO valuable.
<Shinmera>
It is.
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<flip214>
you're welcome, too! ;)
<flip214>
I might BBL, gotta feed the kids (and myself, preferably).
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<shka_>
good evening
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<st_iron>
good evening shka_
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<Olaf`>
How do I tell asdf that one file has a dependency on a non lisp file?
<Shinmera>
I think there's :static-file instead of :file
<Xach>
Olaf`: i know that it is possible, but not how, sorry.
<Xach>
Olaf`: what kind of non-lisp file is it, out of curiosity?
<Olaf`>
a javascript file
<Olaf`>
i searched for :static-file and found it. Will check if it works.
<Olaf`>
Shinmera: It works, thank you
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<rme>
On CCL, (format t "~@<Retry ASDF operation.~@:>") signals an error.
<rme>
Presumably this is because the spec says "If the at-sign modifier is used with ~<...~:>, the entire remaining argument list is passed to the directive as its argument."
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<pjb>
rme: no, it's because almost all the format specifiers require an argument.
<pjb>
~< needs one.
<pjb>
it can be an empty list, when it's not used…
<rme>
I'm starting to think ccl is probably wrong here. If the @ modifier is present, it seems like it ought to be OK if the "remaining argument list" is nil.
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* rme
steadies himself before looking at format.lisp
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<Xach>
gail weighed in
<rme>
Oh, so she did. I should read mail instead of yap on IRC.
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<pjb>
rme: in any case, it would be nice if all implementations behaved the same.
<pjb>
For example, they all return 2 for (prog2 1 2 3)…
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<stacksmith>
pjb: what's the deal with prog2? CLHS says "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form." How does that differ from prog1?
<Bike>
it's a typo.
<stacksmith>
That's what I thought.
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<pjb>
The thing is that since the specification is not formal, and is known to contain bugs, some level of consensual interpretation is left to the implementations. But it is better if all implementors agree on thos litigious points. Unfortunately, on some important parts, they don't. Eg. they could agree on how to do pathnames (both physical and logical) on POSIX systems, but they don't. :-(
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<stacksmith>
pjb: in the case of prog2 - what are the differences?
<loli>
prog1 returns the first expression
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<loli>
prog2 returns the 2nd expression
<stacksmith>
pjb: oh are you saying that they indeed do return 2? I read it as 'I wish they would all return 2' ...
<loli>
(prog2 1 2 3) => 2
<loli>
(prog1 1 2 3) => 1
<stacksmith>
loli: I know. I was asking pjb to clarify a statement earlier that I misunderstood.
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<stacksmith>
loli: And pointing out the CLHS typo.
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<puchacz>
hi; slime on slow device please. I am getting [Interrupted: time limit exhausted] on fuzzy completion
<puchacz>
I already changed something in contrib to 0, so it should mean no time limit
<puchacz>
and following comments, setting it to 0 should remove time limit
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<flip214>
puchacz: still, your emacs slime part might have a timeout configured
<flip214>
how long before this message comes up?
<puchacz>
flip214: good few seconds, so defo not 1500 ms
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<flip214>
puchacz: did you restart slime after changing that?
<puchacz>
flip214: ah - I need to restart emacs too
<puchacz>
not only lisp part
<puchacz>
right
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<puchacz>
one sec - recompiling
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<jackdaniel>
I've wrote some rendering approximation illustrations with McCLIM: http://hellsgate.pl/files/c885c815 (I'll make it one of clim-examples after adding some interactivity to it)
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<jackdaniel>
s/wrote/written/
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<puchacz>
flip214: no, it still times out after few seconds
<puchacz>
no idea where it is configured
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<flip214>
puchacz: well, why not do the auto-completion against a faster system, and just run the code on the slow target system anyway?
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<flip214>
now reading OOSCUCLOS...
<flip214>
ah, I read that already ... that's why it looks so familiar.
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<whoman>
o_o
<flip214>
so, 6 reviews still open... but not today.
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<Shinmera>
flip214: I get that acronym
<puchacz>
flip214: that's what I ended up doing
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