<ebrasca>
onion: I have found it in wikipedia and after not understanding it in wikipedia I asked here.
<Bike>
i like how both the loop examples are completely pointless
<onion>
okay. i just found it there, was sharing with Bike mostly
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<ebrasca>
For me alambda lock good.
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<pillton>
Shouldn't AIF be `(let ((,(intern "IT") ,test-form)) ..) ?
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* pillton
didn't know LOOP bound IT.
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<pierpa>
why do you want to intern a new IT?
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<Bike>
so that the 'it' symbol is in the same package as the rest of the code.
<pierpa>
and why one would want this?
<Bike>
it's convenient
<pierpa>
hmmm
<pillton>
For the same reason you wouldn't want to do (cl:loop cl:for cl:= ...).
<pierpa>
cl:loop is exceptional in this regard
<Bike>
is it
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<pierpa>
FWIW, LOOP does not intern any symbol anywhere. LOOP matches its keywords using their SYMBOL-NAMEs. So it's not similar.
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<pillton>
Right. If you had a code walker you could implement AIF the same way then.
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<Bike>
i think defstruct is the only standard macro that interns like that
<pierpa>
I can't think of any other, indeed
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<vtomole>
Where do i tell quicklisp to run what's in "/var/www" instead of "quicklisp/local-projects"? I've been seeing if i can modify a line or two in setup.lisp
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<loke>
Beach!
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<epony>
morning
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<SaganMan>
Morning！
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<aeth>
Is the hyperspec down for anyone else?
<aeth>
(Good thing I have a local copy!)
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<SaganMan>
yes, it's down for me
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<SaganMan>
aeth: haven't you installed the emacs extension of hyperspec? I think it maintains hyperspec offline.
<aeth>
What works the best for my workflow is to use !l1sp to search the (online) hyperspec via l1sp via duckduckgo
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<SaganMan>
nice
<stacksmith>
Good morning!
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<stacksmith>
aeth: may I inquire why such fabulous privacy measures? Are you afraid Google may realize you are a Lisp coder?
<onion>
M-x slime-hyperspec-lookup
<SaganMan>
btw I also use duckduckgo
<stacksmith>
I use startpage myself
<SaganMan>
When there's reliable alternate available, why google?
<stacksmith>
I've been using https://zealdocs.org/ for a couple of months. It's pretty straightforward and fast.
<aeth>
(which, in turn, is a better search of the hyperspec than the hyperspec's own search imo)
<jackdaniel>
right, l1sp.org is my favourite lookup service (thanks Xach !), it looks over a few sources: clhs, pcl, clim spec
<aeth>
DuckDuckGo is excellent when you use it to interface with another, specialized search
<jackdaniel>
(and a few other, like cffi doc etc)
<jackdaniel>
oh, didn't know that ddg has integration for it, thanks for the hint
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<onion>
why dont slime sbcl errors show source file location ?
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<beach>
One possibility is that your DEBUG setting is not high enough.
<beach>
onion: Are you using the default settings?
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<onion>
yeah
<beach>
That is often not good enough.
<beach>
onion: If I were you, I would set it to 3 in your .sbclrc.
<onion>
kk
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<jackdaniel>
onion: try pressing "v" over the function
<jackdaniel>
it should open a buffer with the source of the call
<beach>
Oh, I assumed onion had already done that.
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<asarch>
Two questions about SBCL: Is there any way to save into a file what you have entered in the listener so far and, how do you enable history? :history #p"~/.sbcl.history" doesn't work in ~/.sbclrc?
<beach>
asarch: You would typically do all that through SLIME.
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<beach>
Then you have everything in an Emacs buffer, and you can save it as you please.
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<beach>
Plus, that SLIME keeps the history, so that you can use the standard Emacs commands like M-p, M-r, etc.
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<jackdaniel>
asarch: if you are interested in recording your session, there is "dribble" function being part of cl standard
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<asarch>
Thank you
<asarch>
Thank you very much guys :-)
* asarch
takes notes...
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<kristof>
Hello everyone
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<ebzzry>
Is lispworks.com down for everyone, too?
<kristof>
I had a minor religious experience and decided to "come home". I'd like to contribute to sbcl if possible and do my part to preserve the ancient wisdom...
<shrdlu68>
ebzzry: Yep.
<ebzzry>
shrdlu68: ok
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<shrdlu68>
kristof: Too late. All is lost.
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<kristof>
shrdlu68: Haven't you read A Canticle for Leibowitz? Faith is more powerful than anything else in this world.
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<epony>
sad to hear you neglect gravity
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<shrdlu68>
kristof: Welcome back. I'm not all that despondent, just jesting. Interesting book, reminds me of Neal Stephenson's Anathem.
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<kristof>
shrdlu68: I think the last time I was in this IRC channel was.. '13, maybe '14. It's been a bit.
<kristof>
Not familiar with Anathem, I'll have to check it out. The title sounds a bit like an homage.
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<loke>
Hello kri
<loke>
hmm, le left
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<araly>
hi everyone
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<araly>
I'm trying to learn lisp and I'm having a few questions on variables, I can't seem to be able to create a variable that's local to a function, but defined in a loop in the function
<stacksmith>
Heh.
<shrdlu68>
araly: What do you mean? Write some sample code to demonstrate.
<stacksmith>
Loop does it's own thing, but always local.
<loke>
araly: I think you need to share some code to explain what you're doing.
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<antoszka>
araly: Yeah, but since you're using LOOP anyway, try using it's built-in features such as maximize.
<antoszka>
See the link suggested by stacksmith.
<shrdlu68>
araly: Which book are you learning CL with?
<stacksmith>
Just remember - lexical scope means that your let bindings are only visible inside the braces...
<araly>
I actually started with the same book, tried searching for stuff around, I asked here yesterday as I coundl't set up emacs so someone advised portacle which is what I'm using now
<johnnymacs>
My embedded common lisp core is 6288 bytes on my machine. But that must not contain the entire common lisp standard.
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<johnnymacs>
Simply a core which can run the standard
<beach>
There is probably a shared library as well.
<johnnymacs>
what is the function of the shared library
<beach>
Storing all the stuff that is not in the executable I would think.
<beach>
Like all the code that is shared.
<johnnymacs>
Like the data/code as opposed to the runtime?
<beach>
johnnymacs: What is the runtime to you if it is not data and code?
<johnnymacs>
The runtime is a small kernel file likely written in c or assembler that can process common lisp
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<beach>
johnnymacs: I think you are confused about Common Lisp. In order to process Common Lisp code, you need a compiler or an interpreter. Those are not small. You also need a garbage collector, and a huge library of functions.
<johnnymacs>
So a common lisp core can not fit into 6288 bytes
<beach>
That would be very unusual, yes.
<jackdaniel>
given it has around 1000 symbols, where each has probably mor than 6 letter, then no
<jackdaniel>
more*
<jackdaniel>
letters*
<beach>
jackdaniel: Very good point.
<beach>
Plus, each symbol has a few slots too.
<jackdaniel>
sure, my point is that even without any logic, bare symbol list wouldn't fit there
<johnnymacs>
So common lisp would not fit on the average microcontroller
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<jackdaniel>
johnnymacs: you want scheme
<jackdaniel>
or ulisp
<johnnymacs>
What logical reason would I want scheme for?
<jackdaniel>
well, you want small language which is possible to fit on microcontroller
<johnnymacs>
So common lisp can not fit on a microcontroller?
<jackdaniel>
common lisp is considerably big
<jackdaniel>
it can't
<johnnymacs>
but scheme can?
<shrdlu68>
I suspect it would be possible to write an implementatio that is size-conscious, through tree-shaking and such techniques.
<jackdaniel>
rather microscheme
<jackdaniel>
shrdlu68: but you would not have common lisp on microcontroler, just a result of running cl program
<jackdaniel>
i.e you wouldn't be able to call compile on conforming cl function on such microcontroler
<shrdlu68>
jackdaniel: Which is what most programs really are.
<jackdaniel>
shrdlu68: which is not Common Lisp though
<shrdlu68>
Most programs don't need to ship with a CL interpreter.
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<jackdaniel>
that's not the subject of this debate
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<jackdaniel>
or rather, subject of his question
<smokeink>
so it wouldn't be possible to make a CL implementation that targets a single architecture let's say, and it's all coded in ASM and it's specifically designed to be small and fast ?
<dim>
is that Mezzano?
<shrdlu68>
smokeink: That's entirely possible.
<jackdaniel>
I don't understand where did this question come from. there were such implementations which were small, coded in ASM and designed to be small and fast
<jackdaniel>
still they wouldn't fit on microcontroller
<easye>
Anybody have suggestions on the current state of the ecosystem on building native libraries from some kind of integration ASDF definitions?
<jackdaniel>
corman cl was written with hand assembly in many parts from what I've been told
<jackdaniel>
like shared objects? ECL can do that with asdf:make-build
<jackdaniel>
there is also program-op mechanism I'm not very much familiar with
<Shinmera>
I think he means building external shared libraries as part of your CL library.
<jackdaniel>
ah, makes sense
<easye>
Shinmera: Yes.
<jackdaniel>
you may look at unix-dso extension (i.e it is used in clsql)
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<Shinmera>
Well, I wrote ABCD once but it was abandoned. Other than that I guess you can write a couple of additional ASDF ops to run make or gcc or something.
<jackdaniel>
osicat also builds its own wrapper as so I think
<easye>
I am invoking a single bash script at the moment, using a CLOS before on asdf:compile-op, but I get the feeling that someone must have already gone down this route. But five minutes of duckduckgo'n didn't show anything useful.
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<jackdaniel>
groveller *uses* C compiler, not sure if it could be integrated to other systems
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<Shinmera>
easye: That's not the ideal way of doing that indeed.
<jackdaniel>
easye: I'd examine ASD definitions of clsql, osicat and cffi-groveller for ideas
<easye>
Is ABCD still public? Maybe I can profit from studying its bones?
<Shinmera>
It is, but no.
<easye>
jackdaniel: Thanks.
<Shinmera>
I don't recommend looking at it.
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<easye>
Ok, looking at clsql seems very fruitful. Thanks!
<jackdaniel>
easye: also, practical tip: don't depends on SBCL's auto-reload library functionality, write init and terminate functions. otherwise your software will most likely work on your own host, but will crash on production
<jackdaniel>
use cffi:load-libraries and cffi:close-libraries
<Shinmera>
What you want to do is something like (defclass c-file (asdf:file-component) ((flags :initarg :flags :accessor flags))) (defmethod asdf:perform ((file c-file) (op asdf:compile-op)) ..invoke gcc..) and the same for a final linking step.
<jackdaniel>
(SBCL assumes, that so is present at the exact same location it was before you called save-lisp-and-die)
<easye>
jackdaniel: "production" at the moment will be LispWorks. Is the auto-reload an SBCL specific problem?
<jackdaniel>
s/production/practically any other machine/
<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: Indeed. One should use something like the Deploy library to handle the closing/reopening and relocating part automatically.
<jackdaniel>
or simply write init/terminate functions :-)
<jackdaniel>
easye: I have never used LW, but I'd still unload and load libraries manually
<easye>
jackdaniel: Thanks for the advice, then.
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<jackdaniel>
sure :)
<easye>
You coming to ELS?
<jackdaniel>
yes
<easye>
Shinmera: Thanks for the outline of a structure for ASDF. It is roughly what I expect to have to do. One subtlety is ensuring that the OS has the correct "development environment" setup to do the compile.
<Shinmera>
Well, yes, as always when dealing with foreign tools.
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<easye>
jackdaniel: Excellent. Hopefully we get a chance to chat on implementer issues.
<jackdaniel>
looking forward to it
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<beach>
I wouldn't be surprised if there were a record number of participants this year.
<beach>
I have heard several people say that they intend to go for the first time.
<easye>
Shall we start a pool?
* Shinmera
is conflicted because he wants ELS to succeed, but also preferred the more relaxed / small attendance of his first time
<easye>
Hopefully we break (expt 10 2)
<beach>
That's what I am guessing, yes.
<easye>
Shinmera: if we have those kinda problems, we can resurrect ECLM
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<Shinmera>
I don't think my loner attitude should become the problem of other people :)
<jackdaniel>
I personally better like idea of a more diverse audience
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<jackdaniel>
(I'm afraid that ECLM may happen to be too narrowed)
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<easye>
Shinmera: I totally appreciate the intimacy of a small conference.
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<pfdietz>
I wonder if it could be held in Kyiv. Lots of lisp people there.
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<jackdaniel>
not so far from Przemyśl :-)
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<vtomole>
Is there a better way of giving the location of a project besides (push #p"/projects/my-project/" asdf:*central-registry*) for quicklisp? I'm looking at how to change what directory quicklisp looks at.
<Xach>
vtomole: i like to put them in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ - that's a "magic" place to quicklisp.
<Xach>
vtomole: quicklisp will find things if asdf can, and asdf has a rich and complex way to specify where it works.
<Xach>
where it looks, rather.
* jackdaniel
symlinks the thing in local-projects
<Xach>
it's so rich and complex that i can't always understand how to get what i want, so i use ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ almost exclusively. it can be extended or changed by frobbing ql:*local-project-directories*
<shrdlu68>
symlink to ~/common-lisp/ works too
<jackdaniel>
there is some difference
<shrdlu68>
s/symlink to/symlink in/
<jackdaniel>
asdf doesn't look recursively in common-lisp directory
<jackdaniel>
but it does in local-projects
<shrdlu68>
jackdaniel: Recursively?
<jackdaniel>
~/common-lisp/foo/src/file.asd won't be found
<vtomole>
Thanks. I'm trying to deploy a web app using apache, so my project has to be in /var/www. I don't want to have another copy in quicklisp/local-projects
<jackdaniel>
because asdf looks in ~/common-lisp/foo/*.asd
<Xach>
oh, i didn't realize that.
<Xach>
no wonder i was failing with ~/common-lisp/
<shrdlu68>
jackdaniel: That doesn't seem to be true.
<jackdaniel>
while local-projects is searched like ~/quicklisp/local-projects/**/*asd (using common glob nomenclature)
<jackdaniel>
it certainly is true on my machine
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<shrdlu68>
I have a project whose asd is ~/common-lisp/next/next/next.asd
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<jackdaniel>
hm, maybe it's about symlinks? I just verified and my system could be found too
<vtomole>
How do i permanently change ql:*local-project-directories*?
<jackdaniel>
maybe I'll get back to it later
<Xach>
vtomole: put it in an init file
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<Xach>
vtomole: my web apps usually load a file to set configuration parameters, and that is an example of where it could go
<Xach>
or you could change it and save an image, where it will persist
<Xach>
there are many options
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<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: ASDF does not search local-projects recursively. You need to explicitly (ql:register-local-projects) to update the index of all ASDs.
<jackdaniel>
I remember there is some annoying difference between the directories
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<jackdaniel>
not sure what difference now though
<jackdaniel>
(with search function that is)
<shrdlu68>
perhaps the order in which they are searched?
<Xach>
If you put somethine new in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, like a new directory with *.asd files at any number of levels, those new asd files will be found without an explicit registration, because of the timestamp of the cache vs the timestamp of the ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ directory.
<jackdaniel>
I had problem with inconsistency with mcclim asd files
<jackdaniel>
top-level was taken from toplevel directory
<jackdaniel>
and deeper definitions were taken from dists/quicklisp
<jackdaniel>
and when I have moved symlink to the other one it worked just fine
<Xach>
But if you have an existing directory ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/ and add something under that without modifying local-projects, it needs registration.
<Xach>
"something" meaning an .asd file
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<phoe>
and if you tend to modify stuff real often, write yourself a macro like (:load :asdf) that calls ql:r-a-p and then quickloads.
<phoe>
will be slower, but should work in your case.
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<Xach>
There is a new Quicklisp dist update this hour! Hooray!
<Shinmera>
:O
<Shinmera>
Finally my no-releases curse will be broken
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<shka>
wow, I will have library in quicklisp
<Xach>
which?
<phoe>
shka: cl-ds?
<shka>
documentation-utils-extensions
<shka>
phoe: co, i need to put documentation-utils-extensions, because it is missing dependency
<shka>
very humble library
<phoe>
yep, I see
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<shka>
as for cl-ds, i will want to add specilized rrb vectors (easy), finish egnat sets (element removal is missing, adding is still broken), separate unit tests to separate package at the very least
<shka>
plenty of work :/
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<rumbler31>
stacksmith: did you figure out how to unlock it?
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<onion>
question. when talking in real life, is there another way i can say 'lisp' or 'common lisp'? i am trying to avoid responses like "huh?" and "um..is that a java thing?". maybe i should say "alien technology" ?
<Xach>
In my experience people have heard of Common Lisp but they often think it is not something currently used
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<beach>
onion: How about "my favorite programming language" or "the programming language that I currently use".
<onion>
beach: those would be the questions i am answering, though =)
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<beach>
Hmm, OK. Then how about "One of the most powerful multi-paradigm programming languages around".
<onion>
for regular college folk that can recognize java/javascript (as the same.), python, c/c++ (as the same..); my intention is not to abstract or mystify what i am using, but to avoid saying uncomfortable word in casual social setting
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<onion>
oh i like where that is going. rather than give it a "name", that would surely inspire curiosity in the listener as well
<Xach>
"my secret weapon against blub and perhaps the greatest discovery, for it is a discovery and not e develpoment, of modern computing science"
<onion>
secret military weapon made with powerful alien technology
<Xach>
"why are you walking away"
<onion>
heheh. i like "discovery and not development" =)
<beach>
onion: These days, I just avoid talking about it unless the person I am talking to is seriously interested. Otherwise, one would just get a blank stare and that would be the end of the conversation, and perhaps future ones too.
<bjorkintosh>
they think it's obsolete because it's not a popular web 2(3?).0 language.
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<bjorkintosh>
or one used for writing apps.
<bjorkintosh>
because those are strictly the only two domains in existence for writing applications.
<onion>
yeah, thats a good point. i was at "HackerNest" last year a few times which is a local nerd meetup with free beer, some of them know emacs but most of them talk about python arduino raspi
<onion>
hmm. i could also point them to my own website entirely made in CL (since last night im reviving)
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<defunkydrummer>
(declare (arrived late))
<defunkydrummer>
hi onion, which is your website?
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<defunkydrummer>
(and which library is based it upon, i.e. ucw over hunchentoot etc etc)
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<defunkydrummer>
beach: hi RS (flavio81 here), i'd say blank stares are often much better than having to deal with people with stubborn ideas of how programming should be done.
<beach>
defunkydrummer: I just meant that, these days, it makes me tired to try to explain to people what I am doing, unless they are genuinely interested.
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<beach>
defunkydrummer: People don't want to be told that there are better things than what they have invested so much time and energy in.
<defunkydrummer>
beach: are you referring to programming/CS, or to "things to do in life" in general ?
<beach>
Well, this being #lisp, I was talking about Common Lisp. But it very likely generalizes.
<beach>
It seems that people have a big problem with software tools though.
<onion>
defunkydrummer: hi =) its not up yet, im fixing it up after reworking the code a little. have to shop for host, probably github pages
<onion>
yea beach , and they tend to look for things they want to hear, rather than unexpected mind bending
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<defunkydrummer>
beach: lol, of course! in fact, what I do is first detect if the guy is a javascripter. (cond (javascripter (i simply don't bother explaining anything, unless he/she is interested in learning another language.))
<defunkydrummer>
((and java sick-of-java) (In that case this guy/girl has an understanding of OOP, thus I got the time to explain CLOS and see if he/she "gets" it. In that case this can be a gateway drug to CL.)))
<onion>
some pros are javascripters, its not a bad language at all. a lot of my good friend are doing awesome things with JS and showing me cool stuff with it. i would be using it if there wasnt lisp
<onion>
(also, parenscript=)
<defunkydrummer>
onion: i have not explained myself correctly. I meant people who can only code in JS.
<defunkydrummer>
onion: here, there are bootcamps where girls and guys receive about 6 months of education in JS and they come out as "developers"; first doing frontend stuff. Then, they discover Node.js and thus are ready to create really horrible backends, then they label themselves "full stack" and get employment. The problem is that they have a very, very narro
<defunkydrummer>
w view of how things can be done. And can get fanatical.
<onion>
defunkydrummer: ah okay. i tried to type that "unless they only know JS" but i am sipping on something to wake up this morning
<defunkydrummer>
onion: yerba mate works wonders
<onion>
ahh yeah =) that is an epidemic, i think. we get good libraries and innovations though, if from one-hit-wonders
<defunkydrummer>
beach: i guess it's not easy to explain what is SICL, even to greyhairs
<beach>
defunkydrummer: Nor to most people in #lisp.
<defunkydrummer>
beach: I thought SICL was Strandh's Implementing Common Lisp
<beach>
Only yesterday, I was told that every Common Lisp system must have a core written in something else, like C or assembler.
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<beach>
defunkydrummer: That's what my wife thinks too, but it aint so.
<onion>
must have ? because we have no lisp machines ?
<bjorkintosh>
onion, i'm setting one up now. it's a bit of a PAIN to be honest!
<defunkydrummer>
bjorkintosh: ** WOW **
<onion>
bjorkintosh: github pages or lisp machines? =)
<bjorkintosh>
VLM on ubuntu.
<beach>
onion: It does not have to, because we have excellent Common Lisp implementations around. Like SBCL, CCL, ECL, etc.
<bjorkintosh>
virtual lisp machines. the way she was meant to run.
<onion>
aha. hmm morbid
<defunkydrummer>
beach: onion: i'm seriously considering creating a Lisp implementation in webassembly, just because I believe webassembly will bring (in a few years) the total death of javascript and its ecosystem.
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<defunkydrummer>
bjorkintosh: ah, i thought it was a hardware lispm
<onion>
webassembly is a very nice and smart thing. there are CL impls in JS; but targetting webassembly would be Good. the web is the most portable/common place after all
<beach>
defunkydrummer: What would be the point of implementing it IN webassembly, as opposed to have it GENERATE webassembly?
* onion
sees webassembly processors and browser chips in future ..
<defunkydrummer>
beach: i'm not a good techincal writer :)
<onion>
same thing i think, beach
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<onion>
like how emscripten targets javascript , clang for eg could target webasm
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<defunkydrummer>
beach: as I'm thinking, it would be written in a CL subset that will translate simple s-expressions to opcodes, then with macros we build upon that, writing the reader/parser/etc, until it gets self-hosted
<onion>
right now a big frigton of langs target JS, instead they will target webasm
<beach>
defunkydrummer: But it's going to be a full Common Lisp?
<defunkydrummer>
onion emscripten uses LLVM IR; i am thinking not to use LLVM because i want my implementation to be able to compile code at runtime, thus it would have to output direct wasm binary
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<defunkydrummer>
beach: no; i'm thinking that to be aligned with web use, it would have to be geared to have as small a runtime as possible... it's really a philosophical thing i'm thinking of... But i think it is very important that the syntax resembles CL as most as possible.
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<onion>
defunkydrummer: wait wait, 'your' implementation? sorry i did not know i was suggesting something heh =)
<beach>
defunkydrummer: Sounds good. Keep us posted with your progress.
<defunkydrummer>
onion: I already googled this, there is "schism", a scheme compiler self-hosted written in WASM; it is extremely simple. Made by google !!
<onion>
nice. cool name.
<defunkydrummer>
onion: it was the first time I had to read through a significant size of scheme code. Scheme made me chuckle.
<onion>
JSCL is interesting also, not sure if it is current but i've seen it the other day
<defunkydrummer>
onion: there are other languages that compile to wasm, but 95% of them are crippled, only good for toy things or numeric calculations.
<onion>
how come? wasm too complicated, or not complete ?
<defunkydrummer>
onion: yes, i'm thinking about JSCL a lot and how it can be rewritten for higher performance
<defunkydrummer>
onion: no, simply that most of those "languages that compile to wasm" are watered-down, dumbified versions of the original languages. There are exceptions, like C, or Lua.
<onion>
hmm. because JS is super fast... i see an answer in one of those links saying "there is not much advantage to targeting webasm than straight javascript"
<defunkydrummer>
beach: currently i have so little time, but this weekend i am in holidays so perhaps i can do something
<defunkydrummer>
onion: for me JS is super slow
<defunkydrummer>
onion: (setf bullshit "there is not much advantage to targeting webasm than straight javascript" )
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<onion>
okay i wish you luck brother. keep us posted on progress
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<defunkydrummer>
onion: you can write faster JS than normal, if you keep a long checklist of things to take care of, like for example use only arrays of uniform type, etc etc etc ETC
<beach>
defunkydrummer: Sounds good.
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<defunkydrummer>
onion: what WASM is, is a stack machine with very simple instructions. You create binaries for this machine, and the browser will compile them ahead-of-time to native machine language
<onion>
i mean JS is severely optimized.
<defunkydrummer>
onion: yes, JS is severely optimized, compired to prior JS compilers
<onion>
"slip" has TinyCLOS implementation
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<defunkydrummer>
onion: that doesn't mean it can be as fast as WASM
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<defunkydrummer>
onion: unless they introduce a restrictive subset of JS that uses type declarations for primitive types. But, surprise, this was done before and was called "asm.js". And "asm.js" evolved, because then people said "why write in a restrictive subset of js, when we could deliver the same code as a binary, with a smaller footpring"? and then WASM was b
<defunkydrummer>
orn.
<defunkydrummer>
onion: "slip" ? i'll take a look, thanks!!
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<defunkydrummer>
onion: I see, slip is written in JS. But i will still take a look at the source, hopefully it's implemented in a different way than JSCL
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<defunkydrummer>
... got busy looking at SLip ...
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<borei>
hi all
<beach>
Hello borei.
<borei>
the lisp games channel - can somebody remind the channel name
<borei>
stuck with opengl shaders
<dlowe>
borei: #lispgames
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<borei>
oh right, tried with '-'.
<borei>
tks
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<borei>
hmm, not sure if there is activity this time, will try here as well
<borei>
i have 2 models - 2 spheres. for each sphere i have individual shader program. initial rendering - works fine. but when im trying to rotate camera (for example) getting segfault
<borei>
if i have only one model - everything works
<borei>
did some blind shots trying to find out where is the problem
<borei>
draw-array works okish
<borei>
at least im not getting segfault
<borei>
picture has artifacts
<borei>
but seems like it's problem with inputdata
<borei>
im ready to provide any additional information
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<zyaku>
Anyone mind answering a quick question about best practices for macros and symbol exports?
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<Bike>
ask
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<zyaku>
I have a reader macro that does special processing on code containing symbols prefixed with the character %. Only about 10 such symbols would really be used in practice
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<zyaku>
My question is, for putting this packaging the reader macro, should I export these 10 symbols, or should I instead use SYMBOL-NAME to identify matching symbols regardless of their package
<dim>
now how to control that from an application that uses a database driver that in turn uses cl+ssl only when required...
<zyaku>
Yeah, %0, %1, and so on. In theory it could go up to any integer, but in practice I'm sure it'd be sufficient to export the first 10, since functions with that many arguments are so rare
<zyaku>
I just worry about name collision problems, whereas dispatching purely on the symbol name would mean that yes, you capture symbols from any package, but only in the context of the #% reader macro which should have relatively limited scope
<zyaku>
but exporting them is the much easier solution
<phoe>
zyaku: then export them.
<zyaku>
okay, thanks for the input
<Bike>
so your reader macro calls READ recursively?
<Bike>
cos i think i'd just have it look at the next character
<zyaku>
Bike: yes, just for the next form
<Bike>
but i mean, it's not a form, only digits are allowed, if i understand rightly
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<Bike>
or wait, so you have #% as a macro but % isn't a macro?
<zyaku>
yes, the second thing. The whole form after #% is processed
<Bike>
i see, i see
<Bike>
so if someone uses heresy they have to actually USE the heresy package or it won't work
<Bike>
(if you use exported symbols i mean)
<zyaku>
yep
<Bike>
well, maybe i'm not understanding your problem because i don't see where you'd even have the opportunity to dispatch on symbol names
<Bike>
oh, you flatten and check that way. i see.
<zyaku>
Well, I have a function called "%-ARG-P" that takes a symbol and tells whether it's one of those symbols. It'd be easy enough to change that so that it only looks at the symbol name, i.e. cl-user::%1 and heresy::%
<zyaku>
the problem is that when I generate the bindings for the symbol-macrolet, I'd have to go back over my list and make sure they were all in the appropriate package, which is no problem, just a bit of a pain to actually code up
<flip214>
zyaku: the #% macro could use an alternate read-table that has % as a macro character to switch to the right package.
<flip214>
other macros (LOOP, ITERATE) just use SYMBOL-NAME to check what is requested.
<flip214>
why not just use :0, :1, :2? these would be the same everywhere, BTW.
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<Bike>
interrupting % normally might be bad, since normal symbols starting with % aren't uncommon
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<zyaku>
flip214: numbered keywords could conceivably come up in normal lisp code, or at least would be more likely to than %, as I reckon
<flip214>
zyaku: %0 might as well be used "normally".
<zyaku>
I kind of like the local % reader macro as an option, although that might prove to be even more work than just using symbol-name
<flip214>
I thought this was used in very short forms anyway, so there shouldn't be that much risk of interference.
<zyaku>
flip214: another question: can you bind keywords as macro symbols?
<flip214>
why not?
<Bike>
as symbol macros? i don't think so.
<Bike>
they're constant.
<flip214>
Bike: only the symbol-value.
<flip214>
not the symbol-function.
<flip214>
you can (defun :foo ()) and (defmacro :bar ())
<Bike>
yes, but they mentioned symbol-macrolet earlier
<Bike>
perhaps the code uses symbol-macrolet to bind %0 to the actual parameter
<zyaku>
symbol-macrolet doesn't seem to like keywords
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<zyaku>
Bike: yes, spot-on
<Bike>
so, yeah, you can't bind keywords.
<Bike>
oh, here's a thought. you could have your reader macro return a lambda expression where the parameters are %0, etc, as interned in the current package.
<flip214>
ah, sorry. not a symbol-macro, right.
<Bike>
mmm i can think of problems with this actually
<zyaku>
Bike: I thought about that, but using symbol-macrolet with gensyms prevents theoretical collisions with macros that may expand to include %-prefixed symbols
<flip214>
wasn't there a similar macro in PCL or so?
<zyaku>
flip214: wouldn't know. I haven't worked through that book yet, although I plan to (i'm currently doing LOL and On Lisp)
<zyaku>
I like the symbol macro approach because it has very clearly defined semantics
<Bike>
the "flatten" code is from LoL with the modification to break less on sbcl
<zyaku>
yep
<zyaku>
I guess in light of this conversation, I'm currently leaning toward the symbol-name based approach
<zyaku>
it'd mess up my current macro definition a bit, but seems like it has the least intrusive and simplest behavior
<flip214>
%n designates the nth argument (1-based). % is a synonym for %1.
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<dlowe>
I prefer the system used in the positional-lambda library
<zyaku>
oh wow, and here I thought I was only ripping off Rick Hickey and clojure
<dlowe>
which uses :0 :1 :2
<Bike>
yeah, no, i've seen one or two libraries doing this stuff before
<flip214>
this one is restricted to at most 5 such arguments
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<zyaku>
Thanks, everyone, for your input. I'm moving it over to a symbol-name based approach. (Looks like other people have already done what I'm trying, but my NIH syndrome demands that I march onwards. Plus mine has varargs support, although I doubt how useful that will be)
<flip214>
zyaku: straight on!
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<flip214>
oh no, why does quux-hunchentoot no longer build in QL?
<Xach>
flip214: because it depends on lisp-interface-library, which no longer builds.
<francogrex>
hi when I try (DELETE-FILE "c:/ztemp/copy-zscripts/tcltk/lib/tcl8.6/msgs/af.msg") I get couldn't delete c:\ztemp\copy-zscripts\tcltk\lib\tcl8.6\msgs\af.msg: Access is denied.
<francogrex>
I believe because the pathname contains .
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<francogrex>
is there a way to "force" the deletion?
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<francogrex>
this is probably only windows problem (not on my linux now to try)
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<Shinmera>
can you delete it as a standard, non-privileged user?
<pierpa>
Do other operations on the file fail in the same way? Say, PROBE-FILE
<francogrex>
Shinmera: yes, actully rm "c:/ztemp/copy-zscripts/tcltk/lib/tcl8.6/msgs/af.msg" gets rid of it, no problem
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<francogrex>
no, probe file works fine.
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<francogrex>
it's because there is tcl8.6 in the pathname, somehow prevents deletion
<francogrex>
the dot
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<francogrex>
or not I don't know.
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<francogrex>
maybe this is less of a lisp question. sorry please ignore.
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<rumbler31>
if this is asdf:delete-file, I think there is a flag you have to pass
<rumbler31>
er uiop:delete-file
<rumbler31>
francogrex: check the sig
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<rumbler31>
francogrex: nm i'm thinking of uiop:delete-directory-tree
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<asarch>
Lisp for Arduino?
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<asarch>
From the book "Land of Lisp", what does #\a mean?: (equal #\a #\a)
<pierpa_>
really Land of Lisp does not say what it means?
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<dim>
having to write some C code and I'm in segfaults and bus error all over again and I can't see why and... frustration.
<dim>
I needed to write it with people who'd understand the level of grumpyness that can bring on the table when you're not used to that kind of thing anymore, so here it is, sorry :/
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<Xach>
time to blog about how lisp has ruined your life!!
<dim>
ahah
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<Shinmera>
Reminds me of some low-level bugs in Harmony that I've been putting off for months
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<dim>
well in that case I think either I'm going to find another C lib to use, or just say no to using C for this project and do something more sane instead
<dim>
(https://libcork.io/0.15.0/subprocess.html is what I'm now using, and I kind of liked it a lot until hitting this strange Bus error that I can't seem to get past of)
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<Xach>
slashdotted
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<Shinmera>
Still loads fine for me?
<rme>
Oh good, I'm the first speaker on the first day.
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<TMA>
"bisuits" shall probably be "biscuits"
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<bjorkintosh>
with a 'th'
<k-hos>
bithcuits
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<kristof>
ha, did a linecount on sbcl's src directory (just .lisp files)
<kristof>
413kloc
<kristof>
although if you restrict that to src/compiler, it's "just" 179kloc
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<bjorkintosh>
"just"
<bjorkintosh>
is it safe to say that software emerges after 99%?
<bjorkintosh>
*99,999?
<bjorkintosh>
before then, they're just loose scripts.
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<obi-cons-cdrobi>
does anyone know the proper way to close an SSL stream with cl+ssl? when I call `(close the-stream)` the server logs an error indicating that the SSL connection was not properly terminated