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<Xach>
CLISP does one thing, everything else sensible does what you'd expect on unix.
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<drmeister>
Does anyone use Python and Pandas? Does Pandas do anything with data frames that you wouldn't do in Common Lisp with a LOOP macro over an array?
<drmeister>
I'm going to be talking to some people later in the week about writing some complex computational chemistry code and they had started doing it in Python with Pandas. I watched a couple of talks on Pandas and it looks like it's a bunch of C code to carry out standard operations (sum, average, stdev, whatnot) on tables of values. Stuff that one would normally do with a LOOP.
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<koenig>
drmeister: Pandas can manipulate dataframes in ways that you'd think about relational database tables.
<koenig>
So for example, if you have two dataframes that have a common column, you can "join" the dataframes together based on rows where the keys match.
<pierpa_>
When I googled "python panda" I was expecting to have to wade through pages and pages of zoological links. Incredibly, instead the first link is the right one!
<koenig>
You can also subselect dataframes into new dataframes that match only part of the data.
<koenig>
For example, select all rows out of the dataframe where the value in a specified column is > 0.01 and <=0.50.
<koenig>
Stuff like that. It's a reasonably useful abstraction for working with data because you can express what you want to happen with the data in a single statement rather than writing a few lines of code to step-by-step loop through code. All the looping to do the selection process happens in the (faster) C code.
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<elderK>
Hey guys, I have a quick question for you:
<elderK>
How often do you check types to ensure that the functions you write, are receiving the correct kinda thing?
<elderK>
Or do you largely not care and just have unit tests in place to make sure your stuff works?
<elderK>
I've been tinkering with Lisp on and off for several years. It was a personal thing, a long time ago, to become proficient in CL. Unfortunately, it's always been pushed back due to life :P
<elderK>
So, there are tons of little questions like this lingering in my mind.
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<onion>
elderK: "psilord | ANd, remember, in CL, a specification of a type is NOT telling the compiler to enforce that type. It is a promise from you to the compiler that you won't put anythign in there except that type :)"
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<bjorkintosh>
a promise?
<bjorkintosh>
what sort of voter is CL??
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<elderK>
onion: I was meaning through the use of functions such as check-type.
<onion>
it might be easier to make sure to send the right kind of thing than to make sure upon reception
<pillton>
elderK: I would guess that most people only specify types in order to improve performance.
<onion>
active and passive strategies; or, offensive and defensive programming. balance
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<elderK>
onion: That doesn't really answer my question :P
<elderK>
Like, do you just assume that your functions will be called correctly? Or, do you have some kind of mechanism to check? That mechanism could just be unit tests you run after build instead of littering your code with check-type, etc.
<elderK>
I mean, eventaully, a condition will be thrown or something if you do something that isn't supported by some type.
<elderK>
(Unless, of course, as you said: You've specified types and are on your honor not to break that :P)
<onion>
it will answer a lot more than just that one question js
<elderK>
?
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<onion>
nah listen. thats called 'defensive programming'. but kid-proofing something too much reduces its practicality
<onion>
so i am saying to strike a balance between defense and offense
<onion>
if you cant understand this then you dont have to worry about the question in the first place ^_^
<elderK>
Offensive would fail fast if something came in that was unexpected.
<onion>
taking care of the offensive means there are no unexpecting things being sent out.............
<elderK>
So you're relying that whoever calls your code, doesn't send in bogus stuff.
<onion>
so thats what im saying.. make sure to not send bad data . malicious programmers are super-rare btw
<onion>
sometimes we do though, but not for those reasons
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<drmeister>
It's being passed an integer code-point
<elderK>
onion: So, to alter the question: When is it appropriate to use functions such as check-type?
<onion>
afaik type-safe CL code is generally for optimization rather than safety. generally
* elderK
nods
<elderK>
It's surprisingly difficult to snap out of the "typed" mindset.
<onion>
yeah.. ive got that issue right now
<onion>
im literally busy showing off some haskell DSL that is only type declarations
<pillton>
elderK: Note that check-type is a macro.
<elderK>
I've been doing a lot of C++ template stuff recently - the typeness of everything starts to get under your skin.
<elderK>
Ah, I wasn't aware of that, pillton.
<elderK>
There's so much to learn and so little time :( I need to spend a good chunk of time studying other CL - and working on a project as a vehicle to exercize what I learn.
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<elderK>
Other questions, too, like when it should you write a CFFI binding all by hand instead of using the Groveller? I've heard that some people prefer not to use the groveller as it adds a C compiler as a dependency.
<elderK>
And things like, how do you merge the GC'd world of Lisp with the manual-manage world of C libraries? Do you make use of finalizers? Do you expect people to manually release the resources? Do you wrap it with a convenient macro like, with-....?
<pillton>
CL isn't required to have a garbage collector.
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<elderK>
I guess that's true. Although, to pull that off, wouldn't you need some hellasmart dataflow analysis and stuff?
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<onion>
CL without GC...
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<elderK>
There's a lot in CL that would work just fine without a GC. I mean, I've seen CL -> C compilers :P
<onion>
with a GC in the runtime no doubt ?
<elderK>
And like Scheme, many functions will be able to be compiled such that they require no allocations and stuff.
<onion>
objective-c 2.0 is a C runtime with GC
<elderK>
I'm not saying you could entirely get rid of the GC. But, there's a *lot* of stuff you could do in CL without a GC.
<elderK>
onion: I'm well aware.
<onion>
indubitably
<elderK>
hehe
<elderK>
Indubitably, Captain! :P
<onion>
our local mr. aeth knows a lot of GC-averting CL tricks =)
<elderK>
:D
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<elderK>
Morning beach!
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<Shinmera>
elderK: I write C bindings by hand. I provide both a low-level package with the direct functions and structs, and a wrapper that puts everything into class instances with automatically managed memory and all.
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<gilberth>
Hi there, is any body using CCL + SLIME + Cocoa and has experienced problems with SLIME suddendly quit working?
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<beach>
Hello gilberth. Long time no see.
<gilberth>
Hello beach.
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<beach>
gilberth: I showed your video of your CLIM implementation to the people in #clim. I hope that was OK.
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<gilberth>
That is OK. It's my decade old idea of asynchronous update, I never was able to communicate on the original mcclim mailing list.
<beach>
I wish you would hang out in #clim and help out jackdaniel with McCLIM maintenance and improvement. But I guess that's just wishful thinking. :)
<pierpa>
/join clim
<pierpa>
Uff
<gilberth>
beach: I have my own CLIM. What I wish for is that we chould agree on the API for things, that are not in CLIM2.
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<beach>
Sounds good to me.
<gilberth>
Also I wish for, that we separate Silica from CLIM. I have a pretty solid implementation of the Silica for Cocoa (and PDF and SVG), when we could draw a line there, jackdaniel could potentially share my Mac implementation with his CLIM implementation.
<gilberth>
Actually my dream is, that the Silica becomes the de facto standard to address a window system in Common Lisp, given CLIM or no CLIM.
<bjorkintosh>
what a coincidence. I was just looking at clim-demo:demodemo
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<beach>
gilberth: That sounds like a good plan. The CLIM II specification does not separate Silica from the rest as I recall.
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<beach>
So, we would then have to dig up some Silica spec, or just write one.
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<gilberth>
beach: But we could do that. I have three domains in mind: Silica, which is just the window system and graphics (think X11), clim-asylum, which is native gadgets like a push button, and CLIM for real, which is presentation types and stuff.
<beach>
gilberth: Is your Silica code available?
<gilberth>
beach: I am very sorry: Not yet.
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<loke>
Hello gilberth
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<jackdaniel>
gilberth: happy to share some effort. right now I'm groking and cleaning backend/mirror/sheet parts of the code - it is basically the silica part
<jackdaniel>
let me clarify: you think about separating silica as being abstraction layer between CLIM and the host Windowing system, do I understand correctly
<jackdaniel>
?
<beach>
I should dig up some Silica documentation.
<beach>
jackdaniel: I think that is correct.
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<elderK>
Shinmera: Thanks for the info!
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<elderK>
Shinmera: That's how I usually try to do it, too. But, so far, I lack decent understanding to do the automagical release of stuff.
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<elderK>
I will do some study of other bindings.
<elderK>
Writing a simple binding for a library sounds like a decent way to cement knowledge of ASDF, CFFI, and basic Lisp.
<Shinmera>
I don't think writing a bindings library to learn lisp is a good idea
<elderK>
What would you recommend?
<bjorkintosh>
elderK, how well do you know lisp?
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<Shinmera>
Write pure lisp applications and libraries.
<bjorkintosh>
there's always pcl and little schemer :-)
<Shinmera>
Learning from existing lisp code.
<elderK>
I know how to define classes and structures, how to define macros. I know about packages and ASDF.
<bjorkintosh>
whoa! you're all set then!
<elderK>
I've been using CL and Scheme on and off for years.
<elderK>
I've just never done anything serious :P
<elderK>
This isn't to say that I can do all of it idiomatically :P
<elderK>
That's what I hope to learn :)
<elderK>
There are things I'm unsure of how to implement in CL. Like, I do a lot of parsing stuff and state machines.
<elderK>
I know how to do that reasonably well in C.
<elderK>
But I get the feeling a giant 2D matrix representing state transitions isn't the way it's done here :P
<elderK>
So, I'd like to learn how to do parsing the Lisp way.
<Shinmera>
I just write 'em by hand myself.
<elderK>
I'd also like to learn more about functional data structures. Like, implementing a nice referentially transparent AVL tree or something.
<bjorkintosh>
elderK, you mean idomatic lisp?
<Shinmera>
But there are several parser generators too.
<elderK>
Yeah.
<elderK>
I'd like to do it by hand rather than use a generator.
<elderK>
If only to ensure I understand the theory as well as practice. Try to cement it in my brain :) Once I'm golden there, I'll use generators maybe.
<elderK>
:)
<elderK>
I've been studying "Practical Parsing Techniques" for awhile now and I'm itching to play with its ideas.
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<elderK>
I'd also like to do it several ways. Like, say, recursive descent vs. LL(1) LUT driven.
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<elderK>
:( Aw.
<elderK>
I didn't mean to scare you all away :P
<elderK>
I'd appreciate any references you feel would be useful.
<jmercouris>
when I say *freezes* I mean, the client recieves no response from the server and just waits perpetually
<jmercouris>
my prompt is still functional
<jmercouris>
let me turn on the debug as you suggested
<jmercouris>
alright, so nothing happens at all when debug is turned on
<jmercouris>
let me see if something happens when debug is turned on in a standalone sbcl
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<jmercouris>
interesting, freezing in the standalone sbcl now
<jmercouris>
maybe it is because of the therading
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<jackdaniel>
dlowe: Xach: regarding possibilities to write portable reader extension – yet another approach going around this problem is putting an artificial reader on top of the actual REPL
<jackdaniel>
if we can put linedit there then there is nothing hard to put an ordinary lisp function
<jackdaniel>
just a thought
<dlowe>
as opposed to the natural organic repl, grown from seed in only the finest metacircles?
<jackdaniel>
exactly :-)
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<jmercouris>
unbelievable, the threadin causes freezing in the standalone repl
<jmercouris>
I can't even imagine how that is possible
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<jackdaniel>
threading causing problems? I can see where it comes from
<jackdaniel>
hint: threading :-)
<dlowe>
I suspect the server's event loop is causing issues
<jmercouris>
I want to turn of debugging variables as well
<dlowe>
jackdaniel: you're missing a lot of context.
<jmercouris>
to eliminate any suspects
<jackdaniel>
I know, it was a joke from my side (hoped it will be obvious)
<jmercouris>
Alright, yes, the threading is definitely causing it to freeze somehow
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<jmercouris>
maybe it doesn't like running on something that isn't the main thread
<jmercouris>
because when I run it in a standalone sbcl, there is only *one* thread
<dlowe>
what is swank:*communication-style*
<jmercouris>
:spwan
<jmercouris>
s/:spwan/:spawn
<jmercouris>
I'm going to try (setf swank:*communication-style* :fd-handler)
<dlowe>
hm. I see, so it uses sb-sys:add-fd-handler
<jmercouris>
what does that mean? add file descriptor handler?
<jmercouris>
is that what fd means in this context?
<dlowe>
yeah
<dlowe>
so s-xml-rpc seems to use add-fd-handler itself
* dlowe
should go back to finishing his spec cleanup.
<bjorkintosh>
perhaps the hyperspec should be a quickloadable slime extension!
<Xach>
bjorkintosh: (ql:quickload "clhs")
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<bjorkintosh>
aha! so no need to panic then?!
<Xach>
I prefer the website and l1sp.org (usually)
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<Misha_B>
Is there anything in common lisp similar to python's type hints? where a parameter or return value is typed
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<_death>
you can declare types in common lisp
<pierpa>
Are these meant for performance, type checjing, both?
<dlowe>
Misha_B: You can declare types of functions and you might get a warning when violating them. You might also get compiler optimizations.
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<dlowe>
If you want to check types, you call check-type on values.
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<beach>
Misha_B: Why are you asking?
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<Misha_B>
I'm just curious, I think it would be good to have a option to give a requirements for using some functions, for example if a function only works with a string parameter, it would be nice to be able to say that it will only accept strings.
<beach>
Misha_B: You can do that. Are you learning Common Lisp?
<Misha_B>
thanks, although that link seems to be dead. I found a spec on clhs.lisp.se
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<beach>
Oh, right, we were just told that the LispWorks site was down. Sorry!
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<rme>
I say this a lot, but remember that in standard CL, declare is a promise that you, the programmer, make to the compiler.
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<phoe>
so if you use this function (foo x) which has (declare (string x)) inside it, with anything other than a string, the behaviour is no longer defined - unless your code is safe, AFAIR.
<phoe>
Meaning that optimize safety 3 is proclaimed.
<Misha_B>
ah, so declare is for optimization rather than type checks
<dlowe>
sbcl will emit a warning. Sometimes. You can't rely on it, really.
<dlowe>
however, the optimizer will do the right thing after a call to check-type too, which is nice.
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<dlowe>
I'm working on a whole-image type checker, but it's slow going.
<phoe>
Misha_B: declare is a promise you make to the compiler.
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<phoe>
if you would rather want the program to make a promise to the programmer, use CHECK-TYPE or ASSERT TYPEP instead.
<dlowe>
Misha_B: you probably have never heard this before, but declare is a promise you make to the compiler.
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<phoe>
geez
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<phoe>
this was repeated three times now, right
<phoe>
sorry
<dlowe>
:D
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<dlowe>
the perils of multiple people answering a question.
<phoe>
dlowe: you mean multithreading?
<dlowe>
ask not questions of the lispers, for they will tell you T, NIL, #f, 42, STANDARD-ERROR, and declare is a promise you make to the compiler.
<phoe>
uh wai
<phoe>
t
<phoe>
what is standard-error
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<dlowe>
wrong lisp, let's say I meant SERIOUS-CONDITION
<onion>
phoe: i want to use C for all the C things, like SDL2 and for having control over the memory and performance of certain aspects of an idea i have, then CL for the rest
<phoe>
but ECL can be compiled as a module into C applications - C can call Lisp and Lisp can call C in it.
<phoe>
onion: ooooh, SDL2
<jackdaniel>
ECL can interface with C software at various levels
<phoe>
#lispgames might be of help here, too
<Shinmera>
There's already cl-sdl2
<jackdaniel>
one is via DFFI (slower, using libffi), second is via dlopen and the third is by inlining calls to C functions
<jackdaniel>
cl-bench won't tell you about C interop performance at all though
<stacksmith>
Damnations! Does anyone have an easy fix to stop Emacs from opening restarts in random places - like a 2cm-wide pane I have set up for a file selector - and it does not resize? Sometimes emacs is just determined to show everything there no matter how many times I try!
<onion>
Symbol "*INTEXP-MAXIMUM-EXPONENT*" not found in the SB-EXT package.
<dlowe>
stacksmith: I seem to remember that there is, actually
<jackdaniel>
stacksmith: there is no easy way to do that. I usually install clim debugger
<dlowe>
haha
<jackdaniel>
which opens a new window for errors
<jackdaniel>
without messing my frames
<jackdaniel>
in emacs
<onion>
Shinmera: ive got mega problems with threading and repl with SDL[2], so i want to build my own lisp binary that starts up with SDL window already, and connect to that with slime
<onion>
jackdaniel: cool thanks for the links, digesting
<jackdaniel>
stacksmith: (ql:quickload 'clim-debugger) (clim-debugger:install-debugger) ; will do
<stacksmith>
I I'll give it a shot in a bit, I don't like to fuck everything at once.
<jackdaniel>
for clim debugger (not as good as slime's right now, but it is OK)
<Bike>
onion: intexp maximum exponent was removed, like, a while ago
<dlowe>
stacksmith: do my thing and it will actually do what you asked for
<dlowe>
and not some weird other thing like jackdaniel is proposing
<onion>
jackdaniel: what are the colors ?
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<stacksmith>
dlowe: oh, thanks, I was furiously clicking and missed it!
<onion>
Bike: heh i see. cl-bench is too old for me then
<Bike>
oh, i see, this code still refers to intexp maximum exponent
<Bike>
it should not
<jackdaniel>
purple means terrible, red means bad, yellow means acceptable, green means good
<onion>
hmm
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<jackdaniel>
dlowe: installing alternative debugger is hardly weird
<stacksmith>
dlowe: my emacs does not recognize set-window-dedicated-p
<jackdaniel>
for instance slime installs its own debugger to replace the one proposed by the implementation
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<stacksmith>
jackdaniel: it's not a good time when I can't see an error message and don't want to lose hours of work....
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<dlowe>
stacksmith: are you trying to use it via M-x?
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<stacksmith>
yeah
<dlowe>
that's not what I typed.
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<onion>
jackdaniel: ok i see. got cl-bench going here
<stacksmith>
Oh, you are right. My x finger is twitchy.
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<stacksmith>
dlowe: it says 'Wrong number of arguments: set-window-dedicated-p, 1
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<onion>
hmm ECL much faster than SBCL on bignums
<onion>
terrible on GC... much faster on CLOS/methodcalls.. hmm
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<onion>
sbcl is not so good with defmethod and methodcalls compared with ECL, both latest. hmm =)
<dlowe>
stacksmith: add a t on the end inside the last paren
<jackdaniel>
as a rule of a thumb: if you are after speed use sbcl
<jackdaniel>
if you are interested in interop both ways (C <-> CL) go with ECL
<jackdaniel>
that includes so builds and embedding in C app runtime
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<dlowe>
I belive uses the GNU bignum library, which has hand-optimized assembly and is hard to compete with.
<onion>
jackdaniel: hmm. if i stick to CL, both options are available
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<onion>
ECL being terrible with GC is probably the worst news
<jackdaniel>
sure, writing portable applications is best
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<jackdaniel>
in my experience ECL is not terrible with GC
<onion>
BOEHM-GC 6.075 0.945 -- yeah i just meant in the benchmark
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<onion>
as i would have my "core" data in C without GC
<jackdaniel>
cl-bench tests how some singular operations perform many times
<jackdaniel>
that's hardly a typical use case
<jackdaniel>
that's why I said that the best benchmark is your actual application
<rme>
You are already being misled by the pretty colors on the report. You have to know understand what the benchmarks are measuring.
<stacksmith>
dlowe, it's not helping. I really hate Emacs. What a giant pile of doody.
<stacksmith>
It's possible I made that shitty window permanent...)
<jackdaniel>
for instance program like this: (defun main () (loop (sleep 1) (print "hi"))) will perform quite similar on any Lisp :)
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<drdo>
stacksmith: call tech support
<onion>
jackdaniel: yeah, for sure =)
<semz>
Is there a CL that's known to work (without much trouble) on musl libc? The only I found so far is ECL, which appears to have issues with SLIME.
<semz>
Usually I'd go with SBCL, but cross compiling that seems... involved
<onion>
rme: also true, i try to leave room for that lack of knowledge as well
<jackdaniel>
what do you mean by issues with slime?
<semz>
The connection often breaks for no discernible reason
<jackdaniel>
ECL works fine with musl and uclibc according to what people say
<jackdaniel>
as of connection: do you use up to date ECL and up to date Slime?
<jackdaniel>
either way musl libc or glibc shouldn't make any difference with ECL-Slime interop
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<jackdaniel>
I'm off to bed, good night \o
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<onion>
gn
<onion>
what is the best way to 'browse' all of CL? clhs, slime, or ?
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<Xach>
onion: I found reading cltl2 from start to finish was interesting and easier to read than the hyperspec
<Xach>
onion: but it is important to note it is not CL, but a pre-CL
<onion>
despite its name ?
<rme>
Well, pre-ANSI CL at any rate.
<Xach>
it is easier to read because the prose is a little more lively. i appreciate the dry prose of the spec as spec.
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<onion>
ahh, and me as well having trouble getting the 'human feel' from clhs
<onion>
i've always thought it would be better if it were just code, the spec
* onion
opens cltl2
<Xach>
an opinion shared by a notable onion hater
<Xach>
paul graham brought up the idea of arc's code being its spec, and mccarthy said "isn't it easier to understand 'inverts a matrix' than the code to invert a matrix"
<onion>
hmmm =)
<comborico1611>
Indeed.
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<semz>
jackdaniel: Updating Slime from 2.15 to 2.20 seems to have done the job somehow. I have no idea what's going on but oh well, thanks.
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<stacksmith>
I've had many ideas like that to avoid documenting code...
<onion>
for a spec it would make sense to have some reference implementation stuff, like opengl, and like SICL
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<semz>
Implementations from scratch are really valuable imo, and having a reference implementation discourages them
<semz>
iirc a few oversights in CL were found that way
<onion>
ah=)
<Xach>
MIT loop is an example of that situation
<Xach>
that is german for "WITH loop"
<onion>
i wonder about a hyper-minimal CL impl
<onion>
hah
<Xach>
onion: there has been some discussion along those lines in the distant past
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<Bike>
cl is pretty maximal.
<onion>
CL has a lot of special forms and cases beyond the simplicity of 'just lisp' ofc
<rumbler31>
dlow: what does M-: (set-window-dedicated-p (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))) do? emacs apropos doesn't help me here
<Shinmera>
rumbler31: It makes it so that the window of your currently selected buffer won't be replaced or split.
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<rumbler31>
ah, that had been bugging me
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<jeosol>
Hi guys, is there a way to free resources held in CL slime session. I'm running SBCL. I have some lparallel threads with status running -- these were from some terminated jobs.
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<Bike>
well, you can use sb-thread: list-all-threads and destroy-thread for dangerzone.
<Bike>
yes. it's kind of a rough way of doing things.
<Bike>
of course if the threads aren't actually doing anything it's probably fine.
<jeosol>
I see the threads with first command ...
<jeosol>
I run new commands and it just hangs, normally, I will quit, reload and start over again
<stacksmith>
rumbler31: In my case it locked the very window I did not want because it's not resizable and about 20 characters wide, - to the task of outputting restarts and messages from slime.
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