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<dandruff>
I've heard people say that macros wouldn't be possible with a static type system, but it looks like it might be possible with linear/unique types: https://github.com/fare/moll
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<sigjuice>
what are the unusual looking filenames in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/eazy-project-20180131-git/skeleton about?
<loke>
sigjuice: seems like template names.
<loke>
Clever
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<sigjuice>
I also stumbled across this thing on my computer a few months ago. ~/Library/Caches/$(CFBundleIdentifier)
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<loke>
sigjuice: That looks like a bug.
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Xach>
As little as I like timezone discussion, I feel a little isolated from my lisp friends due to being in a bad timezone for the next 10 days.
<Xach>
I am quite looking forward to ELS!
<Xach>
That will eliminate time zone trouble for quite a group for a few days!
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<smokeink>
how difficult would it be to make a system/algorithm in SBCL that can store in a hashtable all the symbols which are called during a 'testing session' (a session in which the app is run and all the implemented functions are called with the purpose of tesing all the app's functionalities), and then destroy all the symbols which were never called - thus reducing the image for deployment ? there must be a way to do that, and it should
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<smokeink>
portably work with most implementations
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<pjb>
smokeink: Do something like cl-stepper and compile all the code with it.
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<smokeink>
pjb: thanks !
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<White_Flame>
smokeink: there are tools called tree shakers that are supposed to cull unused portions of code. I've not used them, but you can search for the term
<White_Flame>
"destroys the package system and does a gc before saving the lisp image" I guess that's one way to do it :)
* White_Flame
does way too much dynamic runtime loading & building to ever use one
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<beach>
I would think it is not worth it.
<beach>
smokeink: Have you done a back-of-envelope calculation that justifies decreasing the image size?
<smokeink>
"Wouldn't it be a better approach to start with a tiny kernel and only load what is needed, instead of loading everything and then trying to get rid of everything?"
<beach>
smokeink: Common Lisp doesn't work that way. Once EVAL or COMPILE is needed, you must have the entire compiler in the image.
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<jackdaniel>
you can load it on demand. default compile may be lazy, like (defun compile (&rest args) (declare (notinline compile)) (without-package-locks (load-cmp-module)) (apply compile args))
<jackdaniel>
hey
<beach>
Hello jackdaniel.
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<jackdaniel>
s/apply compile/apply 'compile/
<beach>
jackdaniel: That sounds like a good idea. On systems that don't have demand paging. Otherwise, the compiler would naturally migrate to disk anyway.
<beach>
But I wonder whether smokeink had such a system in mind.
<jackdaniel>
sure, my point is that there is nothing preventing implementer from separating small runtime core from the rest
<jackdaniel>
or event making such module unavailable
<jackdaniel>
so load-cmp-module leads to an error
<jackdaniel>
(that's what ecl does, I'm simply describing not inventing the solution)
<beach>
Sure, but what's the point? Having a small executable, and then a larger file with the compiler in it.
<jackdaniel>
I can imagine deployment scenario when I'm anxious about providing compiler / evaluator in runtime
<White_Flame>
surely the point is to have a fixed-function application executable
<jackdaniel>
or don't want to
<jackdaniel>
and what White_Flame said
<jackdaniel>
there are such scenarios (which are not very common though)
<jackdaniel>
like it's not very common to have lisp library as a shared object, but it is useful in some projects
<jackdaniel>
(or might be :)
* beach
again fails to get his point across, so he will be quiet. And he should learn not to try in the future either, so as to prevent additional frustration.
<White_Flame>
but even to smokeink's last statement, if you lazily load in stuff during development, then you still need to remove the lazy loader mechanism when you bake your image for deployment
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<White_Flame>
(hypothetically speaking)
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<White_Flame>
and still remove any remnants of dev tools
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<p_l>
beach: My favourite case for decreasing image sizes are downloading things over internet. And my back-of-the-envelope calculation was based on realities of mobile internet
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<beach>
p_l: I believe you, but I don't understand the scenario.
<p_l>
beach: simple - very, very lousy network connection, and wanting to get a program over it.
<beach>
I see.
<p_l>
that said, these days I also often deal with systems that have much lower memory not because of hw, but because of bin-packing services
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<pjb>
p_l: then it's easy: send the sources!
<pjb>
or fasl.
<p_l>
where the size of image matters due to setup time (download, unpack, etc.)
<pjb>
also, use ecl.
<p_l>
beach: btw, fun idea that just came to me regarding a modularly-designed implementation - network demand-pagein of code
<p_l>
over, well, "anything" (including HTTP)
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<p_l>
the scenario is one where the end users do not know nor care if the application is on disk already
<p_l>
but you want low latency for possibly big application
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<p_l>
this is what MS Office does these days, among other things
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<p_l>
And, IIRC, android for the "instant app" feature
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<beach>
p_l: Yes, good idea, unless the code is then controlled by some commercial company.
<p_l>
I meant as a general feature
<beach>
Sure.
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<pjb>
smokeink: notice that if you call MAPCAR, and never call CAR, and then you delete CAR, it could fail, because nothing prevents an implementation to use (funcall 'car x) instead of (car x) inside MAPCAR. (or something similar).
<smokeink>
right
<beach>
smokeink: And if you haven't called all your generic functions with all possible combinations of classes, then the compiler might be invoked in the middle of your application execution.
<beach>
smokeink: But if you took out the compiler, your application will then fail.
<beach>
smokeink: I am still waiting for that back-of-envelope calculation that lead you to think that you must decrease the image size.
<pjb>
iOS applications are in the megabytes (more like the tens or hundreds of megabytes).
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<pjb>
For gigabyte games, they've got a system to download the game level-by-level…
<pjb>
Yeah, right. African market is foremost cheap Android…
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<smokeink>
beach: here's a calculation that illustrates your point https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/49f1RMAjBm8 right after "In practice it'll be a lot of work to implement a solid tree shaker. " ... But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't discuss about such hacks :) I am interested to learn more about the technicalities of tree shaking
<pjb>
smokeink: I think the best way to learn about it, is to start implementing it.
<pjb>
smokeink: for example, the delete all packages algo. You may notice problems on some implementations, or that it work well in some others…
<beach>
smokeink: It is even more complicated that that, because a lot of people assume that the amount of RAM consumed will be the size of the image, but that is true only if your system does not use demand paging. So in many cases, the cost is only for the disk.
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<beach>
smokeink: For example, if the compiler is needed while your application warms up the generic-function caches, eventually, it will probably migrate to disk, leaving you with a much smaller RAM footprint than the image.
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<smokeink>
Actually it'd be just great if (asdf:operate 'asdf:monolithic-compile-bundle-op :my-system) would create a loadable .fasl - then I could just distribute my app as a .fasl and all 'd be cool. The problem is that the generated .fasl is never loadable, I think asdf 'assembles' together the individual .fasls in the wrong order, or I don't know...
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<Shinmera>
ASDF can't assemble fasls, all it can do is assemble a single lisp file for everything and turn that into a fasl.
<smokeink>
good to know, thanks
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<Shinmera>
also: distributing fasls is a bad idea because fasls are typically constrained to an exact version and platform combination of your implementation.
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<smokeink>
hmmm
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<Shinmera>
if you want to distribute your app you should either distribute binaries, or sources.
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<hajovonta>
good morning
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<beach>
Hello hajovonta.
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<fourier>
anyone bought tickets to ELS/Spain already? Which airport is the closest?
<loke>
fourier: Gibraltar or Malaga
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<Shinmera>
My ticket is to Malaga
<Shinmera>
getting to Marbella from there is just a bus ride away.
<fourier>
aha thanks, will try to book now
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<_death>
I bought a ticket.. think it's about time to go to a Lisp conference
<loke>
_death: Where do you live?
<Shinmera>
So many #lisp people coming this year
<_death>
loke: Israel
* loke
really wanted to go, but it didn't happen this year
<loke>
_death: Not too far away for you then
<fourier>
we decided to combine with vacation, and traveling with 2 families ;)
<_death>
loke: yeah
<tazjin>
Shinmera: is there a demo instance of purplish available somewhere?
<Shinmera>
My radiance applications are unfortunately all severely lacking in documentation, sorry about that :(
<tazjin>
what you lack in documentation you make up for in responsiveness, so don't worry :)
<tazjin>
(just that that doesn't scale as well as docs)
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<Shinmera>
Maybe one day I'll get to writing docs
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<mfiano>
Is anyone familiar with Common Lisp development on NixOS? It's slightly weird, because CFFI cannot find foreign libraries, given that they are not located in the standard locations.
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<shka>
mfiano: IIRC CFFI allows to specify so search path
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<mfiano>
Yes, well NixOS doesn't have 1 path where all libraries live
<mfiano>
Every version of every library is in it's own directory.
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<Bike>
how do system tools find libraries?
<ecraven>
everything is linked against the specific paths
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<ecraven>
so if you uninstall that exact version, your binary won't work, even if there is a slightly different library version installed (which is on purpose)
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<Shinmera>
mfiano: Could ask ldconfig, I guess
<Shinmera>
Arguably CFFI should do that anyhow.
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<mfiano>
LD_LIBRARY_PATH doesn't even have anything
<Shinmera>
It typically doesn't.
<mfiano>
I'm probably going back to Arch for my dev box. I spent the last 2 weeks migrating 10 machines over to NixOS and was hoping to get back to coding this weekend
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<Shinmera>
try ldconfig -p | grep libraryname
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<mfiano>
ldconfig: Can't open cache file /nix/store/2kcrj1ksd2a14bm5sky182fv2xwfhfap-glibc-2.26-131/etc/ld.so.cache
<mfiano>
No such file or directory
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<hairydeathtrap>
Hi. Is European Lisp Symposium registration down? Can't register, it says "Missing fields: Credit card transaction, Type of attendance, Name, Email". Feels like Java enterprise.
<Shinmera>
hairydeathtrap: Sounds more like you got JS disabled.
<hairydeathtrap>
Shinmera: I don't think I have JS disabled. I've tried in 4 browsers, mobile Safari included
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<Shinmera>
Hm. I tested it on all platforms and browsers available to me and it worked fine on all.
<Shinmera>
That error sounds like it's not submitting the fields to the server script properly.
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<Shinmera>
Do you have access to the JS console? Does it report anything more informative?
<beach>
Speaking of which, both me and my (admittedly small) family are coming. Must we register twice?
<Shinmera>
If both of you attend the conference, yes.
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<Shinmera>
hairydeathtrap_: flip214: It's fixed.
<Shinmera>
Thank you for your patience.
<hajovonta>
It turned out I can't attend the conference. We've just bought a house and there is a lot to arrange.
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<whoman>
blessed
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<patrixl>
join #emacs
* patrixl
forgot his /.. sorry
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<jmercouris>
So, I am at the point in my program where I have to start defining the transport language and API that will be supported between my lisp core and foreign program
<jmercouris>
For this reason I was thinking about some way to convert sexpr to XML or something like that
<jmercouris>
Can anyone tell me if it is a smart or stupid idea to try to convert sexpr to XML for execution in my other environment?
<dlowe>
most web APIs these days use JSON
<jmercouris>
I'm imagining something like this (remote-execute '(set-minibuffer-height 80)) which will produce some html like <set-minibuffer-height>80</set-minibuffer-height> and send that out to my foreign code client
<jmercouris>
dlowe: It is for a program running locally, I control both sides of the program
<jmercouris>
as in, I control two programs, that are communicating over sockets
<dlowe>
but if you're not planning on other people using your protocol, why convert at all?
<jmercouris>
one side is in foreign code, so I wanted a transport language
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<dlowe>
just send sexprs
<jmercouris>
but there doesn't exist a sexpr parser in Objective-C
<dlowe>
there could :D
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<jmercouris>
s/html/xml
<Shinmera>
Writing an sexpr parser isn't hard.
<dlowe>
well, if you must have some other wire format, I'd go with json over xml
<jmercouris>
yes, but I will have to write one for every client
<dlowe>
but that's me
<Pierpa>
Probably you have json libraries available in both languages?
<jmercouris>
both languages are objective-c and c++
<jmercouris>
so, yes
<Shinmera>
If you write it in C you can use it in both
<jmercouris>
That's true, I do in fact have sexpr parser I've already written in C...
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<jmercouris>
hopefully it is still on my disk somewhere
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<jmercouris>
so let's say I make a function call that doesn't provide a literal value, but instead a symbol
<jmercouris>
something like (set-minibuffer-height some-value)
<jmercouris>
I'll have to serialize some-value
<jmercouris>
but what if I want somethings to remain as symbols for the purposes of callbacks
<jmercouris>
as an example, (execute-some-operation-and-callback call-back-to-invoke)
<jmercouris>
the foreing code needs to be able to send a message to the lisp side and know to invoke call-back-to-invoke
<jmercouris>
s/foreing/foreign
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<jmercouris>
I guess I will need to write handlers for every operation
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<jmercouris>
then again, xml-rpc already is a protocol written in C and in Lisp...
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<hajovonta>
too bad you have to interface another languages
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<Pierpa>
Do you really need to exchange structured, nested, data?
<jmercouris>
Pierpa: to be honest no, I am probably overengineering
<beach>
What Emacs does to indent DEFCLASS is really not very good. I am suggesting this way instead: https://pastebin.com/ThBGvF3v Opinions?
<Pierpa>
If not, you cansimplify a lot
<jmercouris>
beach: the deeper indenting definitely makes it easier to read
<jmercouris>
especially for the symbol immediately following a :keyword
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<jmercouris>
or in this case form
<jmercouris>
beyond this basic feeling, I can't offer much better feedback, sorry
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<Shinmera>
beach: How do you feel about inline indenting? As in, providing spacing between items in a line.
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<jcowan>
beach: I am not very visual, how is this different from the Emacs default?
<jcowan>
so it is just a matter of giving the value of a keyword (pseudo-)argument an extra indent when it is fat
<Pierpa>
Thanks for the comparison. Yes, the default is ugly
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<Pierpa>
Otoh, I never separate the keyword and the argument on two lines...
<beach>
Shinmera: I would have to think about that. I assume you mean aligning things in columns, right?
<beach>
jcowan: Indenting the slot options with respect to the slot name, and the value of the slot option with respect to the name of the slot option.
<jcowan>
well, except that the value remains on the same line if it is thin
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<beach>
Pierpa: In that case, nothing will change. But when the slot name has many characters in it, and when the initform is complicated, then something better could be done than what Emacs does.
<Pierpa>
Sure
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<Shinmera>
beach: yes
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<Shinmera>
beach: I generally avoid doing it, but only because the cost of fixing the indentation on a change is too high. If the editor could automate it, then that would fall away.
<jmercouris>
Shinmera: yeah, but anyone who doesn't have that editor has that same pain point
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<jmercouris>
that's why it is generally bad practice
<beach>
Shinmera: It gets complicated then, because you may have one line that says `x very-long-value-for-that-very-short-name' and one line that says `very-long-name-for-a-really-short-value y'
<Shinmera>
jmercouris: same for everything else beach is doing right now
<jmercouris>
Shinmera: fair enough
<Shinmera>
beach: Yeah, plus it might be desired in some contexts, and undesired in others.
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<beach>
Shinmera: Yeah, but it might be possible to give a choice. I'll think about it.
<beach>
Shinmera: It is definitely nice, but it has to be automatic as you pointed out.
<Shinmera>
beach: The column aligning would also be helpful for things like a series of let bindings or defvars, etc.
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<beach>
Shinmera: Oh, I agree. But again, because of the risk of significantly longer lines when columns are aligned, it has to be a choice.
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<beach>
jmercouris: If we do nothing better than the lowest common denominator, we won't make any progress.
<mrm>
That's why we should always target the lcm instead.
<beach>
mrm: "target"?
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<beach>
Shinmera: I think an indentation command like that would have to be applied to a region containing lines with the same number of "things" in each one, except possibly for terminating comments.
<jmercouris>
beach: yes, maybe have it as an option with a compatibility mode
<jmercouris>
beach: I assume you are planning on climacs being configurable
<beach>
jmercouris: Duh, it's written in Common Lisp. And it is written by me.
<jmercouris>
Just a thought for easier adoption/less friction in teams
<jmercouris>
I get that it is still kind of catering to the lowest common denominator, but it will help ease the transition, assuming climacs may one day be the dominant ediitor
<jmercouris>
for lisp at least
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<beach>
jmercouris: Writing two or more editors in one would be too hard for me. So I don't think I will try any compatibility mode, neither for Emacs, for VIM, or for gedit.
<jmercouris>
well, maybe someone else can write it then on top of it :D
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<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
jmercouris: Again, I don't care if I am the only person using it. Therefore, making it easier for others to adopt is not a priority.
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<jdz>
beach: For what it's worth I put slot options on their own lines.
<beach>
jdz: Ah, so you could use something like this, then?
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<jdz>
beach: Sorry, I have not read all of the backlog here, just looked at your paste link. Not sure what you mean by "use something like this"?
<jdz>
Change the way Emacs displays DEFCLASS forms?
<jdz>
I would not want my editor to insert newlines by itself.
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<jmercouris>
beach: It just feels like it would be a shame since you've put so much effort
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<jmercouris>
that's all I'm saying
<jdz>
Unless breaking into lines is fully automatic and is applied everywhere.
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<jdz>
That's with current Emacs indenting.
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<beach>
jdz: Right. No automatic newlines. Just better indentation for options.
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<beach>
jmercouris: Thanks. But my effort is compensated by papers that explain the innovative parts of what I write.
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<jdz>
I don't remember having multiline or long initforms, but I'd still initform code on the same line as the :initform keyword.
<beach>
jdz: Then you wouldn't notice any difference.
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<jcowan>
I also am writing an editor primarily for personal use, though perhaps some other people will like it
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<beach>
jcowan: What technique does it use in order to indent Common Lisp code, and what information does it present the Common Lisp programmer with? :)
<jcowan>
It will have many non-features, such as syntax coloring, full-screen editing, single-keystroke commands, and so on.
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<jcowan>
I am currently working out the command set, and haven't decided on an implementation language yet
<jcowan>
Oh, programmability is another major non-feature
<beach>
jcowan: I was talking about the user being a Common Lisp programmer who would want to see the editor help with information about the program.
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<beach>
... not about the implementaiton.
<beach>
implementation.
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<jcowan>
(I always make that mistake too)
<beach>
Heh.
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<jcowan>
The most interesting thing will be how to do parenthesis-bouncing in the context of CLI editing
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<jcowan>
I currently use the ex mode of vim, and will stay fairly close to that, but I also intend to add the structural regular expressions of sam, and I do drop into vi mode when I want to do paren-bouncing, so I want a replacement for that
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<jmercouris>
I'm having an interesting issue with s-xml-rpc
<jmercouris>
but when I run it in slime, the response hangs forever
<jmercouris>
this is obviously unacceptable, as I need to be able to test in slime, any idea why this might be?
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<jmercouris>
I tried changing the ports the server was listening on, but no luck
<_death>
doesn't hang for me.. what is your swank:*communication-style*
<jmercouris>
:spawn
<_death>
try debugging it then
<jmercouris>
to clarify, the server is started
<jmercouris>
when I make a request to the server, it doesn't give a response
<jmercouris>
that is when it hangs, no errors signaled or anything
<jmercouris>
*inferior-lisp* also doesn't have any useful output
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<_death>
look at the source, trace functions, log stuff..
<flip214>
jmercouris: can you get a thread list at that point, and look where they're hanging?
<jmercouris>
the thing is, the source does work
<jmercouris>
I can try, I assume something like (bt:all-threads)?
<_death>
C-c C-x t also works
<jmercouris>
_death: that is new and very useful for me
<jmercouris>
thank you
<jmercouris>
ok let me try sending the request now
<jmercouris>
does *slime-threads* update or must I invoke "g"? or something?
<_death>
"g"
<jmercouris>
all are shown as still "Running"
<_death>
you can also attach a debugger.. `C-h m' to see functionality
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<jmercouris>
ah, very interesting, so it signals a restart
<jmercouris>
I mean interrupt
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<jmercouris>
maybe I'll extend the library to use a persistent usocket connection anyway
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<jmercouris>
kind of goes against the xml-rpc protocol, but it's quite a loose definition
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<_death>
I liked the s-libraries when I started writing lisp.. apparently he writes smalltalk now
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<whoman>
_death: what is/were s-libraries ?
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<jmercouris>
I think they are libs that start with the prefix s- by some common author
<jmercouris>
s-xml-rpc being an example of one of them
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<jmercouris>
I think: Sven Van Caekenberghe
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<whoman>
jmercouris: ah cool, thanks
<whoman>
jmercouris: btw, i wanted to ask you for a week or two, what project you were working on? i cant remember what you said about it exactly but it sounded very cool
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<jmercouris>
right now I am making a very deep changing removing the FFI by implementing a server/client interface between a lisp core and a "dumb" gui frontend
<jmercouris>
s/changing/change
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<fouric>
Is there a way to get a bit more detail about *what* is taking up all that space in a SBCL (or any other implementation, really) core?
<fouric>
If there isn't, then any advice for writing a tool that does so?
<pjb>
(room t) ?
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<fouric>
...oh.
<fouric>
Thank you.
<rme>
ccl has (ccl:heap-utilization) which can sometimes be interesting
<fouric>
Ooh, I'll check that out. I was installing Roswell anyway. Thanks!
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<attila_lendvai>
fouric: if you get to that point then there are even path-to-root functions on some implementation that can tell you about a specific object what is holding it from garbage collection
<Colleen>
attila_lendvai: frgo said at 2018.03.07 22:35:24: I just pulled from dev and now I see some strange messages regarding "git submodules" - please see https://gist.github.com/dg1sbg/ccebad1c7702fe6a359c344bce50368c - How d I deal with those? Any idea what I am doing wrong? Thanks for looking into this.