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<Bike>
was the original that bad? knuth seemed pretty measured in his response
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<lieven>
dijkstra was a pretty opinioniated guy. there's a collection of his EWD memos somewhere on the web.
<shka>
Bike: arrogance is measured in minidijkstras
<Bike>
i mean, yes, i've read it, i'm wondering about the response.
<lieven>
there was a whole cargo cult movement at the time that was adamant about every construction having only one entry point and one exit point
<lieven>
so stuff like early returns out of functions etc was all forbidden
<Shinmera>
Well, CL does that too to a large part, but in a way that hides it away neatly. Explicit RETURN/-FROMs are pretty rare.
<epony>
that was the epoch of fighting "un"structured programming from fortran/basic legacy
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<pjb>
Shinmera: non-local exits are all over the place in CL. What saves us is unwind-protect.
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<jackdaniel>
basically anything excessively used may be harmful
<lieven>
the problem generally isn't with the guy who comes up with these insights but with the management who sees it as a silver bullet that will take care of all problems.
<lieven>
especially if compliance with it can be automated
<lieven>
there was a cyclomatic complexity fad derived from it too
<epony>
in several decades language tools vendors created incompatible products for feature in an attempt to gain market share
<lieven>
where tools would flag "too complex" parts of code for you
<epony>
journalist jargon is not very productive per se
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<epony>
the opinionated nature of computer scientists is for a reason quite different than pop culture modern times
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<beach>
Second Climacs now has a gutter and it is used to show incorrect indentation: http://metamodular.com/gutter.png Of course right now, it doesn't know how to compute indentation for DEFMETHOD and LOOP.
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<fe[nl]ix>
is there a consensus on which hotel to stay at in Marbella ?
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<beach>
Probably not.
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<beach>
We are at La Villa Marbella
<beach>
Waking distance to the conference site.
<pjb>
beach: I don't agree (and I suppose slime doesn't either) with the indications given in that gutter.png…
<beach>
I don't either. Like I said, it doesn't know how to compute indentation for LOOP and DEFMETHOD.
<shka>
beach: what are the improvement goals for second climacs?
<beach>
"improvement goals"?
<beach>
Compared to what?
<shka>
to first climacs
<beach>
Much better support for Common Lisp editing.
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<shka>
ok, that it is admirable
<beach>
Much better parser, plus I want to plug in Cleavir so that there is program analysis at typing speed.
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<shka>
ooh, that would be cool
<shka>
slime can get you just so far...
<beach>
Indeed.
<beach>
pjb: It is not an absolute goal to be backward compatible with SLIME indentation.
<pjb>
of course.
<pjb>
There are few indents I don't agree with slime either.
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
Especially since it doesn't really have a good idea of the structure of the code.
<beach>
It indents LET bindings as if they were forms, for example.
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<Xach>
Ok, booked for ELS travel & lodging. See you there!
<jackdaniel>
see you there \o
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<Xach>
jackdaniel: does ecl support AF_LOCAL/AF_UNIX socket stuff?
<jackdaniel>
Xach: yes, api is literally the same as sbcl (minus stuff added later) - even package nickname is sb-bsd-sockets
<jackdaniel>
s/nickname/name/
<Xach>
ok
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<Xach>
I wonder who *doesn't* support AF_UNIX/AF_LOCAL
<Xach>
I can't find support for it in USOCKET
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<Shinmera>
Windows, perhaps?
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<jackdaniel>
yup, there isn't one on usocket - I wanted to add it and make PR for a long time now, but never found time to get to it
<Xach>
I guess my question is then "why does usocket not support af_unix/af_local" in the nicest way possible.
<Xach>
Is it because of OS portability issues? Implementation portability issues? Lack of someone doing it?
<jackdaniel>
I'd bet for the last one
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<Xach>
I will search and discuss
<jackdaniel>
I think there was an issue for that on usocket tracker, but I don't remember for sure
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<jackdaniel>
it seems there isn't
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<Xach>
Allegro supports it on Unix. Don't see it in the LW manual.
<jackdaniel>
it can be done on lispworks
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<Xach>
Cool. Is it in the manual somewhere?
<Xach>
(I can't always find things)
* jackdaniel
directs Xach's attention at dep-* files in portable clx in sharplispers repository
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<Xach>
oho
<jackdaniel>
I don't know lw - simply remember seeing unix-domain-sockets there
<jackdaniel>
for lispworks too
<Xach>
yikes. lots of ::. I wonder if it's changed since that was made.
<jackdaniel>
I assume fli is basically ffi
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<Xach>
yes, though comm::*socket_af_unix* makes it seem like there's some support deep inside somehow
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<Xach>
FLI is the Foreign Language Interface. I think that is possibly a nicer name than FFI.
<jackdaniel>
I'm getting back to my precious layout protocol off-by-one errors in McCLIM, laters o/
<Xach>
ok
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<z3t0>
hey all
<Xach>
Howdy z3t0
<z3t0>
Can someone direct me to a well structured project that explains how to properly write a package using ASD and quicklisp and essentially just a guide for how to properly structure a project
<z3t0>
Currently I am using quickproject:makeproject and refactoring an older project
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<Xach>
I use make-project. I think roswell also has a project-skeleton-making thing.
<Xach>
I'm not sure that's exactly what you're talking about, but I hope it helps.
<Shinmera>
Portacle offers M-x create-project
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<Xach>
z3t0: is there any particular area that troubles you?
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<krwq>
are there any known problems with cffi callbacks when native part calls them inside of the thread?
<krwq>
my sbcl seems to be crashing when I call any lambda inside such callback
<krwq>
might be something on my part but please let me know if you know about anything
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<rme>
I know that ccl goes to some trouble to support calling back into lisp from foreign threads. I'm not sure what sbcl does in that case.
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<Shinmera>
Unless your SBCL is Really Old™, it should work fine.
<Shinmera>
It used to require thruption and wtimer features, but I think that's no longer necessary.
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<krwq>
Shinmera: define old - mine is 1.3.1 - so calling back works but it crashes when I try to funcall a lambda in that callback
<Shinmera>
That's from like 2015
<Shinmera>
Grepping the changelog shows changes made since then related to callbacks
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<krwq>
Shinmera: do you have any script for building from sources somewhere? last time I tried using the version from sources I was hitting various issues
<krwq>
which branch should I use?
<krwq>
my current script is doing: echo '"1.0.99.999"' > version.lisp-expr; ./make.sh --fancy; sudo ./install.sh
<Shinmera>
clone the latest tag, run make.sh --fance, run install.sh, done.
<Shinmera>
*fancy
<krwq>
ok, sounds good, will give it a shot, thank you!
<krwq>
will need to disconenct as Im on stumpwm atm
<Xach>
Yeah, if you don't use latest (which I personally find very safe), the latest release tag of the form sbcl-<version> is usually a good bet.
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<krwq>
sounds good, thanks guys! brb need to recompile and test couple of things
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<Xach>
good luck!
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