jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<stacksmith> Good morning.
<beach> Hello stacksmith.
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<borei> hi all !
<borei> my first rendered scene !!
<borei> using lisp and opengl only
<borei> no 3rd party libraries
<borei> im damn happy !
<borei> well i'm using glfw for XWindow interaction
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<beach> borei: Congratulations!
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<borei> tks beach: !
<borei> thanks to lisp comunity helping me learning language.
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<beach> It's an investment. We fully expect you to contribute to the community once you gain enough experience. :)
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<borei> i don't mind, and will do once i have more or less logically completed code, right now it's handbombed in too many spots
<beach> No rush. :)
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<borei> i really want to see result :-)
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<jackdaniel> uh oh, reddit 1.0 written in Lisp: https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit1.0 :)
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<puchacz> hi, in bt:condition-wait and bt:condition-notify - if a lock is a recursive lock, should wait release the lock all recursive levels, to make it free? or just release last level?
<puchacz> I think it should release it completely, but I have an impression that at least in lispworks it releases only one level
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<shka> puchacz: it behaves like in the pthreads
<puchacz> shka: you mean lisp delegates it to underlying operating system pthreads?
<shka> puchacz: actually, both
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<shka> first of, bt is for system threads
<shka> and system threads require to use system api
<shka> and system api happens to be posix threads
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<shka> secondly, BT semantics are very close to those of pthreads
<shka> so condition variable is condition variable, not a semaphore, mutex is mutex and not critical section
<shka> puchacz: makes sense?
<puchacz> shka: not really. my expectation that condition-wait should release recursive lock all the way up comes from java synchronized blocks. this is how it behaves in java
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<puchacz> is semaphore then something I want?
<shka> hmm
<shka> i misunderstood you
<puchacz> in java, if you have synchronized (lock) {.....} and your thread already owns the lock, you can enter this sort of block as many times as you want. and when you call lock.wait(), it releases it
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<puchacz> synchronized (lock) { ... synchronized (lock) { .... } }
<puchacz> recursively
<shka> i see
<shka> so it behaves like windows critical section
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<shka> well, BT is more like posix
<shka> look at this:
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<shka> Release the recursive LOCK. The lock will only become free after as many Release operations as there have been Acquire operations. See RELEASE-LOCK for other information.
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<puchacz> and in posix / BT it behaves like I think I discovered, right? i.e. recursive lock is freed only once when wait is called?
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<puchacz> shka: so what's the equivalent of what I want please? it makes sense if you have 2 public API functions, but function A internally calls function B as well, so both needs to be in critical section, but if B is not called directly by "user", but by A, the lock is already owned.
<shka> puchacz: honestly, i just don't know anymore, it seems to be so confusing
<shka> perhaps you can check with other common lisp implementation?
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<puchacz> shka: thanks. at least I know that java synchronization has different semantics than posix locks
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<shka> puchacz: honestly, i never really liked recursive mutexes to begin with
<puchacz> shka: this is the use case; A and B both critical, both callable externally and in addition to it, A internally calls B
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<shka> why not just mutex for A and mutex for B?
<puchacz> but I understood that I do not want recursive locks. they behave differently, they cannot be released all levels at once
<shka> as long as B does not call A you are not getting deadlock anyway
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<puchacz> shka: You are right, I can try. and you are reading my mind, I don't like many mutexes because if I do something that allows for calling both ways, I can get a deadlock.
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<puchacz> single recursive mutex is fine as long as there is no waiting / notification.
<shka> puchacz: multiple mutexes are fine, just keep your locking schema well documented and you are golden
<puchacz> shka: yes, we both understand the problem now
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<shka> recursive mutex has this hackish feel to it anyway
<puchacz> if you use sort of unwind-protect, you are good
<puchacz> or whatever higher level macro is provided, like with-recursive-lock
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<shka> puchacz: yes, but recursive locks promote poorly scalable applications with very narrow bottlenecks
<shka> which is not good
<puchacz> shka: because I mutually exclude more than is actually needed?
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<shka> yes
<shka> and you ending up with application that can't actually make good use of threads
<puchacz> true
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<oleo> morning
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<phoe> Reddit code is full of syntax that uses square brackets, but I cannot find the definition of that bracketed code anywhere.
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<Xach> maybe a cmucl thing?
<dlowe> no, that's a cl-sql thing
<Xach> ah yes
<phoe> It seems that the readtable is not triggered when I try to compile the source.
<dlowe> heh. that's unfortunate.
<phoe> (file-enable-sql-reader-syntax)
<phoe> should work I hope
<phoe> haha! worked
<phoe> the source code seems incomplete. I can't see the DB schema definition.
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<dlowe> the whole thing looks rather trashy. I'm afraid they hacked something together and then declared "lisp is great for prototyping but not for production" without actually trying to design something nice.
<presiden> oh... reddit is written in lisp
<presiden> or was
<phoe> presiden: was
<_death> it's just a mess of code.. too bad it was released
<phoe> dlowe: that is my feeling
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<phoe> someone should actually look at this code, make it work, rewrite it properly, and declare that this is how things should be written in Lisp
<phoe> and not like they God damn did
<phoe> it's a compile-time mess
<Shinmera> I doubt that would be of much use other than coming off as arrogant.
<phoe> more arrogant than writing shitty code like that and then claiming Lisp isn't good enough for production?
<phoe> kinda doubt that
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<Bike> did they actually say that
<dlowe> they definitely said that
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<Shinmera> phoe: Regardless of circumstance, it would amount to "wow you fucking suck look at me and how I do it better," which probably would just reinforce people's image of lispers being asshole snobs.
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<loginoob> i like learning cl
<loginoob> :)
<phoe> ...versus image of Lisp being crap and unsuitable for writing software
<beach> loginoob: Great!
<_death> think it's a dead horse.. just continue working on stuff that matters ;)
<Bike> okay but did they actually say that. is there an actual statement, or are you inferring
<Xach> Yeah, there were 50 contemporary reddit clones in lisp the day they announced they were switching.
<Shinmera> phoe: It's just wasted effort though since you're not improving the image.
<Xach> Nobody cared then and I don't think it matters now.
<dlowe> Bike: are you gonna make us do the google search ourselves or what
<Bike> No, I'm just saying, inferring that somebody said something mean about you and responding as if that inference is certainly true is needless escalation.
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<beach> phoe: Put yourself in their situation. You just produced a load of crap with a language that you know isn't popular anyway. Would you say "I made a mess because I am a bad programmer" or would you say "I failed because this language is crap"?
<beach> phoe: So no matter what you do now, it is too late.
<dlowe> I think it'd be fine to say "I made a mess because I was hacking stuff together and now we need to do a rewrite to solve our technical debt problem."
<Shinmera> I don't think reddit is a very significant piece of engineering anyway. Forums softwares are as old as the www.
<beach> dlowe: It would be fine to say that, but few people would have the courage.
<Shinmera> dlowe: Yes but beach's way of putting it makes it sound a lot more lofty and, I imagine, has better marketing value.
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<beach> Also, it is not the first time Lisp has been the scapegoat. Remember the AI winter?
<_death> I think Lisp was instrumental in helping them get a quick proof of concept.. then of course a rewrite would come, and Aaron Swartz, who wasn't a Lisper, designed a nice simple web framework in Python, so they switched.. he had to promote his way some way
<dlowe> that seems like a likely turn of events.
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<_death> and as Xach said, simplified reddit clones were created, sometimes to show off Lispy web frameworks (I remember the ucw one..)
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<dlowe> yeah, except it turns out the vast majority actually doesn't care at all about what language something is written in.
<dlowe> the hard part wasn't writing the forum software
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<Xach> and there were many years of fringe, about-to-fail, crashing-all-the-time semi-popularity. overnight success takes a while.
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<_death> it's grabbing a big enough userbase, mining their data and selling it off, tweaking their interests and preferences to suit paying customers' will
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<puchacz> hi, when using sb-ext:run-program on linux, can I set priority to nice and io priority to ionice?
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<puchacz> or maybe just run it via nice, ok
<puchacz> I answered my own question :-)
<puchacz> I think it will work
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<cgay> I've never understood the attraction of using both parens and brackets in Lisp dialects. i.e., what problem is it solving?
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<Shinmera> Some claim it helps with visual distinction of certain constructs.
<|3b|> "people don't like parens" is probably main problem :p
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<puchacz> cgay: it is worse for me. in javascript I have to be very careful how I am closing a statement: ); }} ;)
<cgay> heh. "I don't like parens so Imma add this other kind of parens into the mix."
<puchacz> I think they did the same in clojure :(
<cgay> Seems like it forces you to visually match up your parens more, rather than trusting your indenter.
<puchacz> I can't match it }}}}. neither can I match ))))
<puchacz> it is a job for editor
* cgay is in Java Hell
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<dlowe> well, in cl-sql the brackets actually mean a different thing
<dlowe> but I'm not a fan of it there either
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<dlowe> In Clojure IIRC, [] makes a vector, but you can freely intermix vectors and lists in your code
<dlowe> so the style is to alternate, I think
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<dlowe> one interesting observation from the reddit source code is that they used defconstant for an array, which makes me believe that they were not using incremental development at all
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<dlowe> like, it's probable they were in a edit/restart/reload web dev loop
<Bike> isn't sbcl the only implementation that's strict about that
<Bike> i don't know if it was in like 2005
<dlowe> it has been since I've been using it
<Bike> oh hey, it's actually in the changelog
<Bike> "DEFCONSTANT now tests reassignments using EQL, not EQUAL, in order to warn about behavior which is undefined under the ANSI spec. Note: This is specified by ANSI, but it's not very popular with programmers."
<Bike> in version 0.6.9, but i don't know when that was
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<dlowe> nov 28 2000
<Bike> welp.
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<dlowe> git log sbcl_0_6_9 :)
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<phoe> Hmm.
<phoe> When I do USOCKET:WAIT-FOR-INPUT on multiple sockets, I get an error, usocket:bad-file-descriptor-error
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<phoe> That's normal, because the socket was closed by the other side. But I want to recover from that and keep on waiting on input from other sockets.
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<phoe> wait-for-input accepts a list of sockets. So it would be normal for me to call this function again with a list of sockets that are alive. But the condition that is signaled by USOCKET does not tell me anything about the offending socket.
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<jeosol> Good morning guys.
<phoe> hey jeosol
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<jeosol> hey phoe
<jeosol> busting my ass, trying to get challenge requirements, close.
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<jeosol> i am trying to set memory requirements when I call sbcl but it seems my set up is not correct.
<jeosol> I have this in my emacs file: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000" ...
<dlowe> are you the redditor who is using lots of memory and crashing in the gc?
<jeosol> dlowe: hahaha, not at all
<jeosol> that's funny. I have not taken a look at the code. My problem is fairly large, dealing with several 3d grid array elements with ~ 400, 000 grids
<jeosol> I am just trying to start sbcl with higher memory as the program tends to hang while loading arrays and just freezes ...,
<dlowe> what happens when you break into the debugger? (or try)
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<jeosol> dlowe: usually, i can't, most times. I write statements to repl to see what program is doing, it loads a bunch of arrays, and somewhere chokes before the end.
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<phoe> In SLDB, can I run a REPL inside a frame?
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<phoe> Okay, I got around that.
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<phoe> Roswell users: what is the file that is evaluated on each Lisp startup? Kind of like ~/.sbclrc except for Roswell.
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<mfiano> phoe: roswell-path/init.lisp. use reader conditionals...it's for all impls
<phoe> mfiano: thanks.
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<rumbler31> jeosol: ccl does not require you to specify a max heap size at boot and will resize the heap for you. If you already know you will be using lots of heap you can set the heap size step, the default is 30mb incremebts
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<jeosol> rumbler31: thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, I have not run/compiled my code in anything but SBCL and there may be portability issues. After I meet the deadline, I will try to do this.
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<jeosol> How to call SBCL in SLIME but specify dynamic-space-size.
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<Xach> jeosol: you can set arguments in your inferior-lisp-program. there are many other options.
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<jeosol> Xach, I did something like that, but for some reason I get an error. This is what I have: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000" ...)
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<mfiano> phoe: You trying to get reddit working or something?
<Xach> jeosol: what error
<phoe> mfiano: I was.
<equwal> Did you install from source? My SBCL is installed from the repo (binary) and it has always been living in /usr/bin/sbcl. Have you tried $ whereis sbcl ? Sorry if this is out of place, I just joined.
<phoe> I think I got it to work, more or less, except I have no database schema.
<mfiano> ah, that's annoying.
<phoe> I could theoretically reverse-engineer it, but I don't care enough to do it.
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<jeosol> equwal; thanks for your comment. Yes, install from source. That where is my SBCL is. Everything works okay, it is just that when I am running a large problem and the whole thing freezes when loading large grid data
<jeosol> why mfiano?
<jeosol> Xach: I get the following error when starting sbcl but specifying some heap size: Can't exec program: /usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2560, and Process inferior-lisp exited abnormally with code 1
<mfiano> I migrated to Clojure a month or 2 ago...been sort of keeping quiet about it :/ I'll do my best to maintain the CL libraries I have though.
<jeosol> what is it like mfiano?
<mfiano> Wrong channel to discuss that really
<jeosol> comparison?
<jeosol> Ok doki
<equwal> Is there are clojure channel?
<Xach> jeosol: can you run this at a command line? /usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2560
<jeosol> When I started, I was encouraged to consider it, but my application was heavy on using CLOS, so I stayed with CL
<Xach> equwal: I don't know, but if there was, I bet it would be #clojure
<equwal> just joined lol
<jeosol> yeah, Xach, that works on the command line, but how does one know if that parameter was specified
<jeosol> I intentionall messed up the name of the dynamic-space-size and SBCL still started ok
<jeosol> i.e., on the shell
<Xach> there is a function call that returns the dynamic space size in octets
<Xach> I don't remember the name but apropos should help find it.
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<equwal> How many CLOS objects do you think you are making with that program?
<bjorkintosh> at least 1!
<bjorkintosh> sorry. couldn't resist.
<jeosol> I assume that was for me equwal:
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<jeosol> Xach: I did some experiment, if the --dynamic-space-size name is misspelled as I did, SBCL ignores the argument. If it is specified correctly it is used.
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<jeosol> I found the following hack on this site: (see penultimate message, towards bottom) https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/22503919/
<jeosol> I use that to retrieve the size. So far, this is on the shell, so I need to make it work on the with slime.
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<jeosol> equwal: I am not sure what you mean by how many CLOS objects, as in number, or how dependent is the same on CLOS?
<pankracy> hi
<pankracy> I've got this piece of code, I'm running external program with uiop:run-program which takes more than 10 seconds but it put things to the output
<pankracy> and I'm trying to consume that stream while program is running
<pankracy> and that piece of code return empty string after 5 seconds of working
<pankracy> does anyone has any thoughts how to fix this?
<jeosol> pankracy: I see some errors in the debugger output, have you fixed those?
<pankracy> what errors?
<jeosol> compilation errors?
<cgay> pankracy: Package BT does not exist.
<jeosol> sorry, not sure what you wanted us to look at.
<pankracy> yep, this is only sample, you need to load bt and uiop to run this code
<cgay> ah, so the compiler errors you posted should be ignored.
<phoe> t
<jeosol> I guess so
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<sjl> pankracy: I don't think UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM can do async, you'll need to use the implementation-specific things it calls or something like https://github.com/sellout/external-program
<sjl> the docstring for my version of uiop:run-program says:
<sjl> > Run program specified by COMMAND, ...; _synchronously_ process its output as specified and return the processing results when the program and its output processing are complete.
<pankracy> this word probably relates only to that that this is blocking function
<pankracy> there is also launch-program which is async
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<phoe> ^
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<sjl> If there's some other uiop program-runner that would be an option too
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<jackdaniel> uiop's run-program and launch-program have an additional abstraction baggage over implementation-specific run-program – external-program is more minimal with this regard (simply maps into underlying interface)
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<rpg> pankracy: you need to use LAUNCH-PROGRAM from UIOP for asynchronous interaction.
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<pankracy> rpg: and how I would do that besides not using bt:make-thread if this doesn't give me anything into the stream
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<rpg> pankracy: I really don't understand that question (including the question about bt:make-thread)?
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<rpg> I'd start by reading the launch-program docstring: (documentation 'uiop:launch-program 'function)
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<pankracy> rpg: when I run a program and this program loads stuff into the stream, I want to have listener on the stream which performs actions regarding output it gets
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<pankracy> rpg: in this example I've got python program that puts one number every second
<pankracy> and I want to write a listener which consumes every line of that stream when it's pushed by this program
<pankracy> not the whole output, but line by line
<rpg> according to the docstring: "If it[the OUTPUT keyword argument]'s :STREAM, a new stream will be made available that can be accessed via PROCESS-INFO-OUTPUT and read from."
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<rpg> hm. Looks like PROCESS-INFO-OUTPUT is not exported from UIOP, which it probably should be.
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<sjl> rpg: it seems to be in my current sbcl...
<rpg> OK, that's just a stream. So can you not have a thread that listens on that stream?
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<rpg> Actually, I think launch program is spawned off as a separate process, so the current process should be able to listen on that stream.
<rpg> I'm not very clear on what the problem is.
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<sjl> pankracy: you're going to want to use :output :stream like rpg said, then grab the stream with process-info-output, and call READ-LINE on it in a loop. whether that loop is in your current thread or a separate thread is up to you.
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<rpg> If you are worried about it hanging, you will need to manage a timeout.
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<pankracy> (uiop:process-info-output (uiop:launch-program "python -c \"for i in range(10): print(i); __import__('time').sleep(1)\"" :output :stream))
<pankracy> rpg: this works fine
<pankracy> thx
<pankracy> and doing read-line on that stream
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<rpg> Great! Glad to hear it.
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<pankracy> unfortunately, I said it too early xD
<pankracy> (let ((s (uiop:process-info-output (uiop:launch-program "python -c \"for i in range(10): print(i); __import__('time').sleep(1)\"" :output :stream)))) (print (read-line s)) (print (read-line s)) (print (read-line s)))
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<pankracy> if I do 3 times (print (read-line s)) in the body section, these all statements will be executed at the same time
<pankracy> which is then the process is ended
<pankracy> *which is when
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<pankracy> so this is exactly the same problem I had with uiop:run-program
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<Shinmera> Are you sure python is flushing the output?
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<pankracy> yes, if you run this in your shell you will have program that run 10 seconds, every second it shows you new line
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<rpg> Is there any chance that what happens here could "look like" a non-interactive output to Python so that it buffers? I.e., python might open the terminal as a line-buffered stream, but the stream it gets from run-program and launch-program might be block-buffered or something crazy.
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<Shinmera> It seems so. Even with simple-inferiors, which I know works right, it does not work as expected with python
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<Shinmera> (but does work fine if you do the same thing in bash)
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<rpg> pankracy: I think you can just pass python the argument that tells it not to buffer its output, and things should work.
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<pankracy> (let ((s (uiop:process-info-output (uiop:launch-program "python -c \"import sys;import time; [(sys.stdout.write(\\\"%d\\\\n\\\" % i), sys.stdout.flush(), time.sleep(1)) for i in xrange(10)]\"" :output :stream)))) (print (read-line s))(print (read-line s))(print (read-line s)))
<pankracy> I've got this code, it works better
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<rpg> pankracy: Does your original code also work if you add -u to the python command?
<pankracy> -u?
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<pankracy> when I do run-program and the new python line with flushing, the old code also is not working, maybe some problems with passing stream into the run-program with :stream keyword
<rpg> pankracy: Seems to be for "use unbuffered i/o" (although it's stupidly also the same as the standard old-school for "usage")
<rpg> pankracy: I think run-program is intended to run to completion and *then* present the program's output.
<Shinmera> run-program is synchronous.
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<pankracy> rpg: it works better with -u, the async one
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<matzy_> hey, this is a total noob question, but i just installed sbcl and quicklisp, including doing (ql:add-to-init-file). then i realized i dont want the quicklisp folder in my $HOME (I want it in a sub directory of home)
<matzy_> should I: 1. uninstall and reinstall, specifying the correct dir 2. move and change config files somewhere (i assume?)
<Bike> i think you can just move it yeah
<Bike> and then edit .sbclrc
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<Shinmera> Quicklisp is relocatable
<Shinmera> so just move and adapt the path in the init file.
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<matzy_> ok thanks
<matzy_> Shinmera: is the init file you're speaking of .sbclrc?
<Shinmera> yes
<matzy_> ok great
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<makomo_> are symlinks within local-projects supported?
<Shinmera> Yes
<makomo_> because sometimes quicklisp can't find the system even though it's there
<makomo_> i.e. symlinked correctly
<Shinmera> Might have to force a scan with (ql:register-local-projects)
<rpg> makomo_: what CL are you using?
<makomo_> sbcl
<makomo_> Shinmera: that's what i would usually do, but even then it wouldn't work sometimes
<Shinmera> Never observed that myself.
<makomo_> it's been a while since that happened, but it did happen i'm pretty sure
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<MetaYan> It's a bit strange that SBCL follows symlinks in local-projects, while CCL doesn't.
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<rpg> MetaYan: There's no standardization about how to handle symbolic links in CL at all, much less symlinks to directories.
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<rpg> oh, yes, there's not even a notion of "directory" in CL! (there's a directory *function*, but not a directory as a thing)
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<rme> I was pretty sure that CCL did the right thing with symlinks in local-projects; I seem to remember a bug fix related to that, but maybe I am wrong.
<rpg> OK, I have been fighting software all day. I'm going off to get a glass of wine!
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<rpg> rme: My linux box has symlinks in its ~/common-lisp/ folder, and CCL doesn't follow them, so the libraries are visible to ACL and SBCL but not CCL (through ASDF).
<MetaYan> I always end up with an empty system-index.txt if I happen to (ql:register-local-projects) in CCL.
<MetaYan> Both on Linux and Darwin.
<MetaYan> (because all my local-projects are symlinked)
<rme> Well, I guess I'm wrong.
<rme> https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/891 is what I was thinking of.
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<MetaYan> But not sure if there are any side effects.
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