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<matzy_>
so i was reading through a thread on r/lisp about a guy choosing between learning racket and cl
<matzy_>
i've been learning racket (and elisp) for a few months now, and really love them both, but i keep hearing people say youre missing out on the interactive programming of cl
<matzy_>
what exactly does that mean? i know it has to do with slime and the tooling around cl, but what's so different/great about it?
<matzy_>
fwiw, i do hate that i cant really debug racket in emacs and have to use dr racket to step through
<pierpa_>
when you use elisp you are not missing any interactive programming.
<pierpa_>
you are missing a better language, though
<matzy_>
i havent written anything that big in elisp yet to need anything more than a simple eval of sexeps
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<matzy_>
all my bigger programs i've written in racket
<pierpa_>
in racket you don't have a permanent state at the repl
<pierpa_>
you edit your source files, and restart from zero every time
<matzy_>
so like, you just evaluating the individual blocks, it doesnt have access to everything else in the program?
<matzy_>
my one question was how people use a repl that effectively. it's isolated and while you can test small i/o functions, you cant really test a big program with different interacting parts
<pierpa_>
in CL (and elisp) you evaluate an piece of code you want
<Bike>
you can write a file, compile and load it, test it with some calls, find it doesn't work, rewrite a function in the file, recompile and reload that particular function, and try it again.
<pierpa_>
*any
<Bike>
you don't (usually) write large functions in the repl, you just use the repl for interface stuff.
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<matzy_>
ok i see what you mean now about permanent state
<matzy_>
thats cool
<matzy_>
can you debug cl in emacs? or do you not need to with the repl?
<Bike>
well, that's what i'm describing, though you can do it without emacs if you really want
<matzy_>
so is the permanent state in the repl what everyone is talking about with how interactive programming in cl is?
<pierpa_>
probably
<matzy_>
ok
<matzy_>
so do you just use a repl with cl in emacs or does it have an actual step-through cl debugger?
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<pierpa_>
the first one
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<Bike>
SLIME is an emacs library that connects to a running lisp
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<rme>
You can't compile and run functions in Racket? That seems incredible. I must be misunderstanding.
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<matzy_>
ohhh, i see
<matzy_>
i can send racket functions to the repl in emacs
<rme>
e.g, like with C-c C-c in slime
<Bike>
similar, then.
<pierpa_>
rme: I don't think you can
<pierpa_>
not in a sensible way
<pierpa_>
racket functions live in modules, which modules must be compiled at once
<matzy_>
for example, i wrote a simple-ish chatbot, and i couldnt really test it in the repl cause it needed to take user input
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<Bike>
well yeah, for that kind of thing you can only test parts
<Bike>
for instance, if you have something to parse wire messages, you could pass that a string to see if it parses correctly
<matzy_>
right, but i had a bunch of different functions analyzing the string to determine a response
<Bike>
what, like it tries one function at a time?
<matzy_>
some were nested, if it was this type of question, then it had sub-queries it ran through
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<matzy_>
if it was a statement, then these functions which broke it down further to give a specific response
<Bike>
i don't think this makes what i'm describing impossible or anything
<Bike>
just a matter of breaking things into parts
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<matzy_>
so what about user input? just test with the variable set directly?
<Bike>
fake it
<Bike>
these are basically the same concerns as with, like, unit testing
<matzy_>
ironically, something that i have also been trying to learn recently
<matzy_>
well thanks for the help
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<matzy_>
think i might give cl a try, do you guys have an opinion on it vs racket? is it a better experience for an emacs guy?
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<pierpa_>
you in the CL channel. What do you expect to be told? :)
<pierpa_>
*you are
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<matzy_>
clearly i'm seeking the most objective opinions! ;)
<pierpa_>
if you like interactive , exploratory development, then CL is better
<matzy_>
it does sound very nice, yes!
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<pierpa_>
otoh, racket is a research language, and incorporates some newer ideas
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<pierpa_>
some of which turns out to be good and some other not so good
<matzy_>
hmm intereseting
<matzy_>
i havent learned the whole language, i didnt get to macros and only lightly touched objects, so i didnt get super deep
<matzy_>
i've heard most people think rackets macros are far superior. is cl bad for learning macros then?
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<pierpa_>
you heard some great exagerations :)
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<Bike>
i think racket has hygenic macros, which are pretty different from lisp's.
<Bike>
huh, nope, looks it has general macros too
<Bike>
but with some... thing happening here
<matzy_>
ok i'm glad to hear that
<matzy_>
so cl macros are fine for learning the concept for the first time?
<matzy_>
i'll get it setup in emacs and give it a shot. curious to see how working in it is
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<pierpa_>
;)
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<matzy_>
i'm expecting to be like, sucked into the matrix through this repl fyi
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<pierpa_>
you will be assimilated
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<jeosol>
morning beach
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<drmeister>
Hi beach - do you know Robert Smith who is speaking at ELS? Is he from Rigetti?
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<rme>
I'm not beach, but I know him and is works for Rigetti. He's sometimes here as stylewarning.
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<stylewarning>
drmeister: that's me
<vtomole>
stylewarning: What are you going to speak about at ELS?
<drmeister>
stylewarning: Awesome! That's very exciting. I was trying to connect the dots.
<stylewarning>
vtomole: computations on the Clifford group & benchmarking of quantum computers, and simulating markovian noise extensibly in a compiler/simulation framework
<stylewarning>
the talk i give will probably be a bit higher level than that; but that's what the papers are about
<vtomole>
Are they on the arxiv?
<stylewarning>
not yet, writing final drafts this week(end)
<elderK>
For example, if you 'quote' something, it's considered data. For instance, '(a b c d). That's a list of symbols.
<asarch>
2) Open the book "Land of Lisp"
<elderK>
But let's say you want to inject some value into that, from a variable.
<elderK>
Well, with stock quote, you can't afaik.
<elderK>
THat's where backquote comes in.
<elderK>
`(a b c d) is the same as '(a b c d)
<elderK>
But `(a b ,c d) is not.
<elderK>
The comma before the ,c means "Put the value bound to c here."
<elderK>
This is a pretty fast and loose explanation.
<elderK>
beach: How far wrong am I?
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<beach>
Looks reasonable so far.
<elderK>
There are other useful reader macros, too, such as ,@. ,@ differs from , in that if ,@ precedes the name of a variable which is bound to a list, it will directly splice that list in.
<elderK>
for instance if x is bound to '(1 2 3) and you have the following : `(a b c ,@x), the result is the list (a b c 1 2 3)
<jackdaniel>
is comma and ,@ a reader macro though?
<elderK>
That I don't know for sure :)
<elderK>
I only know how handy they are:)
<elderK>
I'd imagine they are?
<jackdaniel>
they are handy, but I think they are not reader macros
<elderK>
asarch: You might find this interesting :)
<elderK>
asarch: The CLHS can be a bit tough to read at times but it's a skill you develop :D
<jackdaniel>
backquote and comma are referred as standard macro characters, hm
<asarch>
3) Go to the page 73 of the book
* asarch
is taking notes...
<beach>
jackdaniel: That's what I said.
<elderK>
beach: You are right :)
<beach>
jackdaniel: It would return something like (unquote ...)
<beach>
jackdaniel: or (unquote-splicing ...) when followed by @.
<jackdaniel>
you are right
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<asarch>
Wow!
<asarch>
Thank you beach, elderK and jackdaniel
<asarch>
Thank you very much
<asarch>
I was stuck at this part at the chapter 8 from PCL
<beach>
Anytime.
<asarch>
I couldn't understand the correspondence the first time I read the book
<jackdaniel>
nothing to thank me for, I've just introduced some unjustified confusion :-)
<asarch>
However, the explanation from all of you... God bless you guys :-)
* beach
is an atheist.
<shrdlu68>
Cod bless you
<jackdaniel>
assuming God exists it is independent of personal beliefs, so even atheist will profit from a blessing :-)
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<asarch>
,@ reminds me @ from Perl: my @friends = ("beach", "elderK", "jackdaniel");
<jackdaniel>
never knew I'm part of Perl standard
<elderK>
Glad to help, asarch
<jackdaniel>
I have to tell everybody, see you later \o
<asarch>
Get some rest o/
<jackdaniel>
actually it is morning, I have to get something done
<asarch>
D'oh!
<elderK>
:P I am pretty beat. But the kind of beat where you want to do stuff anyway :P
<beach>
"rest", what is that?
<asarch>
I mean, have a nice day
<elderK>
:P Just hit midsemester break :P So, yknow, I want to do ALL THE THINGS :P
<asarch>
Reposez-vous?
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<elderK>
?
<beach>
elderK: asarch thinks that French is my native language, so he kindly translates for me.
<asarch>
Mother language of beach is French
<beach>
It is not, but it's one of the ones I speak fluently.
<asarch>
What is your mother language?
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<elderK>
For me, C
<elderK>
:P
<beach>
Swedish. But that's off topic.
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<asarch>
Wow! That's great!
<jackdaniel>
-->#lispcafe for offtopic discussions
<elderK>
:P So joining :D
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<elderK>
Guys, what is the idiomatic way to represent say, a DFA or Finite Automata in Lisp?
<elderK>
In C likes, I usually use a table.
<beach>
Typically with TAGBODY.
<elderK>
Analogous to a switch with goto?
<beach>
No switch. Just goto.
<beach>
Each tag corresponds to a state.
<elderK>
Interesting.
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<beach>
You can generate the TAGBODY from some description if you want (like regular expressions) but for small ones, it is perfectly fine to write it by hand.
<stylewarning>
I myself prefer tail recursive functions. I use LABELS and transition with tail calls, enforced with a nice macro wrapping RETURN-FROM.
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<beach>
stylewarning: So you rely on your implementation doing tail-call optimization?
<elderK>
I use GOTO in C for various reasons but never for state machines. Just goes to show hard engrained the "GOTO IS EVIL" thing is in the world these days.
<stylewarning>
beach: you bet, and it makes life feel good (:
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<beach>
elderK: There are two functions in there each with a TAGBODY in it.
<elderK>
Thanks beach :)
<beach>
elderK: Unfortunately, software development is full of myths and magic beliefs, probably because most of the practitioners do not have enough training.
<elderK>
Aye.
<elderK>
:P Goto is a tool like any other.
* elderK
takes a peek at CLHS TAGBODY and linked source
<beach>
elderK: And experience doesn't help either. It is said that in software development, people don't have 10 years experience. They have 1 year experience 10 times.
<beach>
My observations totally confirms this.
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<lieven>
another neat trick is that closures work over tags. you can hand another function a (lambda () (go tag)) and it can funcall that to transfer control
<shrdlu68>
Nice!
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<rme>
Note, though, that tags have dynamic extent. Once you exit the tagbody, you can't go to any of its tags.
<lieven>
yeah, they're not continuations
<loke>
rme: I guess supporting that would be one way to provide a continuations API
<elderK>
beach: Mine too, actually.
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<elderK>
beach: I remember being very disappointed in what I found when I entered the workforce.
<elderK>
I'm back studying now - not having some kind of degree begun to limit opportunity.
<elderK>
Still. I hope one day to work with people somewhere that don't constantly make me think of the daily wtf.
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<elderK>
I'm not sure why it is that way. I figured the only explanation was that the other people just didn't care enough.
<elderK>
They had degrees and stuff that I never had.
<elderK>
But they just... didn't care, didn't design. Everything was bandaided together and worked on prayer.
<elderK>
Which was horrifying considering I worked for a large financial provider.
<elderK>
(eCommerce and payment terminals and bankswitching and stuff)
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<beach>
elderK: One explanation was well put by Alan Kay. Many universities have taken upon themselves to train their students in topics demanded by industry. So instead of training students in topics the industry NEEDS, it trains students in topics that industry WANTS. Coupled with the fact that most of the software industry is run by people who don't have a clue, we get total stagnation.
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<elderK>
Aye. Reminds me of a conversation I had with an old friend today.
<elderK>
Where he basically said the same thing.
<elderK>
That CS at our University has effectively become a "Code Bootcamp.
<elderK>
And really, it has. And it makes me very sad.
<elderK>
Especially when I see so few students genuinely passionate about any of it.
<elderK>
Makes me sad.
<elderK>
:(
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<Zhivago>
Universities face an existential threat as it is.
<beach>
They do. And they have to adapt fast, or they will disappear.
<shrdlu68>
We live in an age where the tools for autodidactism are ever more accessible and powerful for the studious.
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<Zhivago>
What you're complaining about is part of that adaptation process.
<Zhivago>
But it doesn't look like it can work in the long run, so they'll have to do something else.
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<elderK>
Well, where I study, at least amongst the students, you're considered a freak if you're actually interested in the low-level.
<beach>
elderK: Maybe you should help me with the planned website to teach Common Lisp. It would be a collection of "topic"s, where each topic contains text, video snippets, exercises, etc. The topics would be linked in a graph that allows different kinds of navigation according to the knowledge by the student.
<elderK>
That sounds interesting, beach.
<elderK>
Really cool, actually.
<elderK>
:)
<elderK>
What could I do?
<beach>
We can start with the collection of topics and figure out the graph later.
<beach>
elderK: I know very little about the web, so I need to figure out how to host this, how to turn it into a wiki, but with filtering so that not anybody can put in anything they want.
<beach>
Then, we need to figure out the topics. I can do that.
<elderK>
beach: Well, I have webspace.
<beach>
Then we need to record video snippets for each topic, etc.
<elderK>
beach: Nothing's really established on it other than books.
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<elderK>
But, it suppots like, unlimited DBs and all that junk.
<beach>
See, my web knowledge is so bad I don't even know what you are talking about.
<elderK>
beach: Then we're almost even :P
<elderK>
Web has never been my passion but I've done a fair amount of HTML, CSS and Javascript. Basic exposure to various frameworks for the ecommerce job in the past.
<beach>
OK, so then we need for someone else to get it started first.
<elderK>
Maybe. It depends on how fancy it needs to be :)
<beach>
Ideally, fancy could be added later.
<elderK>
As for the videos - we could host them on a YouTube channel.
<beach>
Hmm, didn't think about that.
<beach>
I am thinking that each video should be at most 5 minutes or so.
<elderK>
Seems fair.
<beach>
... given that the target generation has the attention span of a gnat.
<Zhivago>
When I see videos I look elsewhere.
<beach>
Zhivago: You are not part of the target group.
<Zhivago>
They're just too slow to wade through.
<beach>
Zhivago: You are not part of the target group.
<elderK>
That raises the question of presentation wrt videos. Are we there live streaming something? Are we going to have some nice slides and animations taht show things, like, say, the structure of things?
<elderK>
etc.
<elderK>
Zhivago: Fair.
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<Zhivago>
I suggest including transcripts, so that you're not limiting yourself to the subliterati.
<elderK>
But beach is right: Most people don't seem to read things anymore.
<beach>
elderK: No live streaming in my opinion.
<elderK>
It's like this Computer Graphics paper I'm taking: We're doing GL. Even the teacher got stuff wrong. SO, the popular guy in the class tried to correct him, was wrong. Later, I suggested he take a peek at the 3.3 Core Spec. And his answer was "I don't read things. It just slows me down."
<beach>
elderK: Yes, animation is good. For things like algorithms, stack evolution, etc.
<elderK>
Zhivago: That's a good idea.
<elderK>
beach: We should probably note some of this stuff down :)
<beach>
Yes, definitely duplication of information between text, drawings, videos.
<beach>
#lisp is logged.
<elderK>
Sweet.
<elderK>
If possible, we might want to generate stuff as much as possible, like images and stuff.
<elderK>
Say, if we start off with poor looking stuff. When we get better, we can tweak whatever and regenerate.
<elderK>
Not necessary but I'm sure things like ImageMagick could make that pretty easy.
<elderK>
As for the webpage, that could be done pretty easily provided we build the pages correctly.
<elderK>
Just change the CSS or whatever.
<elderK>
Or switch themes in whatever CMS we use, if any.
<beach>
I am not worried about that. Once the structure exist, people will have opinions about presentation and they will help improve it.
* elderK
shrugs
<elderK>
Yeah, that's true.
<elderK>
:)
<beach>
The most important part, I think, is getting some topics up, where each topic is represented by some top-level page.
<elderK>
What kind of topics are you thinking?
<beach>
Then we can start filling in topics with text, videos, graphics, whatever.
<elderK>
Like, kinda... a soft entry into the world of Lisp? Incrementally more difficult and interesting things?
<beach>
elderK: I have tons of ideas. Let me enumerate some...
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<beach>
1. Uniform reference semantics. The fact that that objects are referred to through references and how that influences semantics in various situations.
<beach>
2. Argument passing. Call by value where values are references.
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<beach>
3. Representations of lists.
<elderK>
(You just reminded me of a question :))
<beach>
4. Packages and how to use them.
<beach>
5. Quicklisp.
<beach>
6. Introduction to Emacs.
<beach>
7. SLIME.
<beach>
8. ASDF basics.
<beach>
9. How to write recursive algorithms in Common Lisp.
<beach>
10. When to use recursion and when to use iteration.
<beach>
11. Iteration in Common Lisp. LOOP etc.
<beach>
12. Special variables and what they are good for.
<beach>
13. Standard classes and how to use them for representing information.
<beach>
14. Generic functions and methods.
<beach>
I am just writing down things as I think of them. No particular order.
<beach>
15. Lexical scoping. Functions and variables.
<elderK>
Right. Well, I think we may want to have multiple ways to interact with Lisp.
<elderK>
As awesome as Emacs is, I've met very few people offline that use it.
<elderK>
These days, it's Atom and shit like that. Vim is equally rare as Emacs.
<elderK>
I saw a few days ago that there now exist SLIME plugins for Atom.
<beach>
The important aspect of a graph of topics is that it should be possible to skip topics that are not needed.
<elderK>
Yeah
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<beach>
Speaking of SLIME: 16 Conventional indentation and spacing.
<elderK>
It could be really styley, too :D
<k-hos>
16. goto 11
<elderK>
Might be worth having a topic about the kind of data structures that are included in Lisp.
<elderK>
A lot of people think Lisp is just lists and such
<beach>
Definitely.
<elderK>
Maybe introduce them to basic use of defstruct, defclass, hash tables, etc.
<beach>
Absolutely.
<elderK>
I know I certainly made that mistake when I first started out.
<elderK>
Hell. I still can't say I know how to best use CLOS :P
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<beach>
17. The concept of a protocol. How to hide implementation details. Modularity.
<elderK>
Generic Functions instead of Classes owning methods still is a weird concept for me :P
<beach>
18. Automatic memory management.
<elderK>
Yeah, that's an important one :)
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<beach>
19. Streams and operations on them.
<beach>
20. The Common Lisp evaluation model.
<beach>
21. How the reader works.
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<beach>
22. Reader macros. Standard ones and how and when to write your own.
<beach>
can I stop now?
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<beach>
Those are just for starters.
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<beach>
Oh, very important: 23 naming conventions and other coding conventions.
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<beach>
24. Comments.
<elderK>
Keep it coming. I still think we should have this organized somewhere.
<elderK>
Logs are great and all.
<elderK>
:P I will inevitably forget to check them
<elderK>
:P
<beach>
25. Documentation strings. What is the purpose. How they are different from comments.
<elderK>
I'm just thinking about... like... what I'd like to see in topics, if I were BRAND new.
<shrdlu68>
Was scope listed?
<elderK>
Or hell, even now. I'm not new - but I'm not proficient.
<elderK>
Yeah, scope is important
<elderK>
Lexical vs. Dynamic.
<elderK>
Hell. People ahve trouble with scope in Java
<elderK>
:|
<beach>
Yes, very important.
<beach>
26. How multiple dispatch works.
<elderK>
I've written a note to myself to dump the logs tomorrow and order these or group them.
<elderK>
Keeping my fellow students in mind :P
<beach>
27. Method combinations and when to use them.
<elderK>
Ooo. I wish I could learn that now :D
<elderK>
:)
<beach>
28. Macros.
<beach>
29. The backquote facility.
<beach>
30. Format
<elderK>
You've probably covered this in streams... but idiomatic IO
<shrdlu68>
CL learners are always confused about producing binaries.
<elderK>
How to handle binary files and formats, etc.
<beach>
31. Writing finite-state machines using TAGBODY. :)
<elderK>
:D
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<elderK>
shrdlu68: Good point.
<beach>
32. How to produce os-specific executables and when to do it. :)
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<elderK>
We could make use of Roswell, too.
<beach>
33. The concept of compiled (FASL) files.
<shrdlu68>
Some newcomers are also confused by the whole implementations things.
<elderK>
Y'know, people will probably need to have the idea of an image explained to them.
<beach>
34. The importance of an independent standard and how the standard differs from implementations of it.
<elderK>
Since, people are so used to write->compile->run
<elderK>
Sure, people use Python. But it's kinda different in Lisp.
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<beach>
35. The Common Lisp runtime environment and what it contains.
<beach>
36. Environments.
<elderK>
Eventually, something about how to interface with foreign code.
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<elderK>
And when it's wise to do so rather than write it in CL
<beach>
I am not at all interested in that topic, so someone else would have to do it.
<elderK>
Well, I'm keen :(
<elderK>
*:)
<elderK>
I'd be very interested in learning how to efficienlty marshal stuff between languages.
<shrdlu68>
Embracing your implementations and using non-standard facilities.
<elderK>
Particularly with regards to asynchronous networking
<beach>
shrdlu68: Yes, good point.
<elderK>
When its wise to do so.
<beach>
37. Gray streams.
<beach>
38 - 50 Building GUI applications using various tools.
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<beach>
51 - 60 Writing web applications in Common Lisp (again, not me).
<shrdlu68>
Slime and the power of the repl. It has become one of most endearing features of CL for me.
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<beach>
61. Writing tests. Using coverage information.
<beach>
62. Profiling and improving performance.
<elderK>
beach: Would a topic about say, intro to a few useful libraries be worthwhile? For web types - which there are a zillion - they'll probably be interested in a quick way to say, talk JSON and access DBs.
<elderK>
How to debug CL programs
<elderK>
:P I still don't know how to do that effectively. Like, breakpoints and stuff.
<shrdlu68>
elderK: Probably because you rarely have to.
<beach>
Yes, everything is good. It just has to be inserted into the graph of topics so that it can be skipped or (on the contrary) elaborated upon.
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<krwq>
elderK: (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 2) (speed 1))) and then put (break) in the code
<elderK>
Usually stuff my functions are as small as I can make them. So, you aren't staring at giant scrolls of stuff.
<beach>
Right. 63. Type declarations and what purpose they serve.
<elderK>
krwq: Can you set breakpoints without manually adding break?
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<elderK>
krwq: I guess that isn't that important, when you can easily recompile a single function or expression.
<beach>
elderK: Depends on your implementation.
<elderK>
beach: How about something about how thing are interned?
<krwq>
elderK: I almost never had to use breakpoints since I usually recompile on error
<beach>
elderK: "interned"?
<rme>
Have I mentioned recently that type declarations are a promise that the programmer makes to the compiler?
<krwq>
elderK: not sure if there is a nicer way - let me know if you find it
<elderK>
Well. Being aware of how what you enter into the REPL, can effect the environment. And also, how a symbol can name many things.
<beach>
krwq: You are missing out on a very important debugging tool then. Sorry to hear that.
<shrdlu68>
I've never had to do that sort of debugging in CL. No segfaults to deal with.
<beach>
rme: Yes, a few times. :)
<krwq>
beach: how do you do it then?
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<elderK>
beach: I'm not sure how real a problem it is, but I remember on #scheme, someone was badmouthing CL because of "Not being able to define something because of previously interned stuff"
<beach>
krwq: How do you set breakpoints?
<elderK>
I never hit that myself.
<elderK>
But I've always remembered it.
<beach>
krwq: Unfortunately, you probably have to insert (break) into your code.
<elderK>
beach: Can you step from that point onwards?
<beach>
I think in SBCL you can now.
<elderK>
Cool :)
<beach>
Free Common Lisp implementation really don't have that great debugging support.
<beach>
Many the commercial ones don't either. I don't know.
<Shinmera>
I'm not aware of any of them having out-of-process debugging, or breakpoints.
<elderK>
Well, that just highlights the importance of writing small functions that are concerned with one thing :P
<elderK>
Rather than 10k LOC monstrosities.
<elderK>
God. I've seen that too many times in the workforce: |
* elderK
shudders
<beach>
elderK: It also highlights the absolute necessity of improving the current situation.
<elderK>
Yes, it does.
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<krwq>
beach: how do you step? I've just created simple function with (break) and 2x (format ...), debugger pops up, I click `s` which apparently steps but it steps into some weird place
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<krwq>
if this is how it is supposed to work then in most of the cases I'm better with just printing stuff out or using repl directly to print results
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<beach>
krwq: It might have to do with your DEBUG settings.
<beach>
krwq: Are you using the default ones?
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<krwq>
I've put (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 2) (speed 1))) as first instruction in my sbclrc
<beach>
That should work.
<beach>
I don't remember the details of stepping in SBCL. I know I am often surprised by what it does, like you.
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<makomo>
hello
<beach>
Hello makomo.
<makomo>
hi beach
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<makomo>
scymtym: can you take a look at this "problem" i'm having with esrap. it's pretty trivial but i can't get it to work. i want to parse text like "{$ hello $}" where "{$" and "$}" are tag delimiters, i.e. they mark the beginning and the end of the tag. " hello " is the text within the tag which can contain any character except for the tag end sequence
<makomo>
so i have (esrap:defrule tag-begin "{$") and (esrap:defrule tag-end "$}")
<makomo>
and for the text i have (esrap:defrule tag-text (esrap:* (and character (esrap:! tag-end)))) but i'm not sure this is correct
<makomo>
the tag itself is (esrap:defrule tag (and tag-begin tag-text tag-end))
<makomo>
trying (esrap:parse 'tag "{$ hello $}") gives me an error at (Line 1, Column 8, Position 8) saying "While parsing TAG-TEXT. Expected: anything but the string "$}""
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<makomo>
it seems like tag-text wants to continue and match more character instead of stopping and letting tag-end match "$}"?
<scymtym>
and maybe, depending on what you need, (esrap:defrule tag-text (* (not tag-end)) (:text t))
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<makomo>
scymtym: works! any idea why my attempt failed?
<Shinmera>
Your tag-text rule says: an arbitrary number of repetitions of: a character followed by something that isn't the end tag.
<scymtym>
(* (and character (! tag-end))) fails at the final space before the tag-end: character consumes the space but then (! tag-end) fails because there is something matching tag-end at that position. so (and ...) fails and the repetition stops, position is still at the final space. then tag-end fails at the space
<makomo>
scymtym: ah right, the whole and fails, not just the !, makes sense
<makomo>
thanks :-)
<makomo>
scymtym: also, how come symbols used in defrule like "*" and "!" are part of the esrap package but "and" and "or" are not?
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<scymtym>
makomo: esrap reuses cl symbols where possible. from your list, only ! is not in the cl package (otherwise my suggestion wouldn't have worked)
<scymtym>
makomo: also, when debugging grammars, try using (esrap:trace-rule 'tag :recursive t)
<makomo>
scymtym: ah i see. yup, i've used trace-rule, neat feature
<makomo>
scymtym: one thing that i don't understand (because i'm not that familiar with PEGs perhaps) is why, when and fails, why does the * fail too? shouldn't it stop at the first fail and just return what it managed to parse?
<Shinmera>
makomo: the * does not fail, but the $} can't parse, so the outer and fails.
<makomo>
ohh, because it stopped at the space?
<Shinmera>
yes
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<makomo>
Shinmera: makes sense, thanks
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<onion>
are non-exported symbols saved in the image? and are images part of the spec at all?
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<Shinmera>
An image is a copy of the memory, so yes.
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<Shinmera>
And no, images are not part of the spec.
<Shinmera>
memory isn't even part of the spec.
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<shka>
sometimes i wonder if it could be
<Shinmera>
If what could be
<shka>
memory
<Shinmera>
What advantage would be gained by having it be part of the spec
<beach>
Nah, you would turn Common Lisp into just another C.
<Shinmera>
I'm quite sure memory was a deliberate exclusion on part of the designers.
<shka>
Shinmera: I think you are right here
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<onion>
ah interesting=) and usually images are not even close to being cross-impl right?
<shka>
you don't even need to have images to begin with
<shka>
they are so common just because they are useful
<onion>
ok, makes sense
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<Shinmera>
onion: an image /is/ your implementation. how could it be cross anything
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<onion>
right, ok
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<MetaYan>
Does SLDB in SLIME provide some way of storing or exporting the complete error state? (With expanded backtrace)
<MetaYan>
Sort of an "error report"?
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<Shinmera>
You can use M-x sldb-end-of-backtrace to expand it, and then save it like any other emacs buffer.
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<MetaYan>
Oh man, yes, thank you. It's an editor, after all... :)
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<shka>
what people use here for tensor algebra?
<shka>
what system, that is
<pierpa>
not many tensor algebrists present, I suppose
<flip214>
hmmm... I open a file, then some threads print debug data into strings (FORMAT NIL ...) and do (BT:WITH-LOCK-HELD (*debug-output-lock*) (PRINC dbg-string *debug-stream*) (FINISH-OUTPUT *debug-stream*))
<shka>
dunno, people here do literally everything
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<flip214>
but still the output lines are mixed up and corrupted. What else do I need to do, apart from using a lock?
<shrdlu68>
flip214: Maybe flush?
<flip214>
shrdlu68: doesn't FINISH-OUTPUT do that?
<flip214>
apart from that, I wouldn't even care for that to reach stable storage; if it's in right order, I'm satisfied
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<pierpa>
Maybe you are not using the lock in some places?
<shrdlu68>
flip214: It should. Strange, maybe something's wrong with the debug strings themselves are corrupted.
<flip214>
pierpa: already grepped my sources. only 3 places use that special var - the initial assignment, and the (IF *debug-output* (print ... *debug-output*))
<jackdaniel>
flip214: use force-output
<flip214>
jackdaniel: no difference
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<shrdlu68>
finish-output is actually better because it doesn't release the lock until all the ouput is flushed.
<jackdaniel>
well, true
<shrdlu68>
flip214: Can you try to actually cause a race condition?
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<flip214>
thanks people, my fault again. thanks for being here!
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<jackdaniel>
what was the problem?
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<flip214>
completely unrelated... because /dev/null can't be removed or renamed, I had :if-does-exist :append and looked at the early log lines again and again
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<flip214>
:supersede tries to delete, :rename-and-delete doesn't work, too, :overwrite doesn't truncate... ain't there a simple "overwrite and truncate" included?
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<pierpa>
:)
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<pierpa>
BTW why do you need /dev/null? Do you know about make-broadcast-stream?
<flip214>
pierpa: hmm, yes, thanks... don't remember now whether there was a good reason for /dev/null
<flip214>
thanks for the reminder
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<pierpa>
;)
<flip214>
but the problem stays the same - either a pipe etc. can't be used, or the contents are kept. well, perhaps I'll just have to truncate manually
<pierpa>
but why can't you use :supersedes?
<pierpa>
I missed this point
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<pierpa>
Ok, pipes...
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<Xach>
pfdietz_: Is your random form tester online somewhere?
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<pfdietz>
There's an older version in ansi-tests which is in got hub somewhere. I've been extending it since then.
<pfdietz>
"github"
<Xach>
Do you know offhand if emarsden is using the same thing?
<pfdietz>
His was forked off at some point.
<Xach>
ok
<pfdietz>
Since then I tweaked it to do "swarm testing"
<pfdietz>
That alters the didtributio
<Xach>
Are you inclined to share the tweaks and extensions?
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<pfdietz>
Distribution of generated forms
<pfdietz>
I do intend to make it available.
<pfdietz>
It also has a tester for random type decks for various built in to test type - based optimizations.
<pfdietz>
"Decls"
<pfdietz>
Recently I have been doing mutation of code trawler from ql and elsewhere, looking for compiler internal errors.
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<beach>
Does anyone know what the RESOURCE parameter of xmpp:auth is?
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<dlowe>
yes
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<dlowe>
it's a nonce used to disambiguate different clients
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<beach>
dlowe: Thanks.
<dlowe>
typically it is user configurable so you can put something in like "desktop"
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<beach>
dlowe: I see, thanks.
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<beach>
It wasn't obvious from the "documentation".
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<Shinmera>
beach: Out of curiosity, what are you looking at XMPP for?
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<bjorkintosh>
to make a clim client of course!
<bjorkintosh>
*McClim client.
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<flip214>
and there's no sb-ext:truncate anymore, is there?
<pjb>
Well, when you discuss about comparing :supersede and :overwrite, I don't see the point of talking about :truncate.
<flip214>
and there's no (SETF FILE-LENGTH) ...
<flip214>
pjb: there's no value for :if-exists that will give you an empty file _and_ works with /dev/null, a pipe, a writable file in a read-only directory, and other special cases.
<pjb>
You have to use different values for if-exists, depending on the kind of thing.
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<pjb>
you may also have surprises in /proc !
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<Shinmera>
beach: I see. I'm planning on getting back to my chat UI using Maiden soon, and since Maiden has a protocol for arbitrary chat systems, I might even add XMPP support some day. I haven't done so so far, since XMPP is a gigantic protocol that scares the hell out of me.
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<phoe>
Which ELS hotel is recommended by #lisp?
<Xach>
phoe: I didn't hear a recommendation, so I picked Fuerte Marbella.
<Xach>
it is not too far from the venue
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<jmercouris>
A strong choice that
<jmercouris>
*badumm tshhh*
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<phoe>
Xach: okay, will try to book it tomorrow.
<Xach>
ich sprechen nein deutsch
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<hjudt>
if i have one slime repl running, can i take it over from another slime-connection in another emacs, similar to gnu screen? if i disconnect, what will happen if a function is executed that moment?