Bike changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.0, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5
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<shmup> which lisp has the best vim support? so slimv is a thing ok. i think with tpope's interest in clojure has developed a nicer thing for lisp/vim, though. are there other lisps which have had better attention/specific focus in vim?
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<stacksmith> Which CPU has better vim support?
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<shmup> heh. ok, i'll try again. which dialect of lisp has a nice vim community providing out of the box repl connection/spawning, mappings to eval an s-expression on current line, whole buffer, mappings defined for definition lookups, etc. tpope's clojure stuff is one example
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<stylewarning> Why could this happen? Symbol "NIL" not found in the COMMON-LISP package.
<smokeink> shmup: common lisp dialect, with slime + evil (vim) mode
<Bike> do you have any context, stylewarning?
<smokeink> shmup: inside emacs
<stylewarning> Bike: I'm just using prin1-to-string (with print readably, *package* :keyword, and print pretty nil) and read-from-string
<Bike> what are you printing?
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<stylewarning> simple-vectors containing lists of complex numbers, possibly empty
<stylewarning> (lists possibly empty, that is)
<Bike> hm. sounds buggy. have you tried it in multiple implementations?
<stylewarning> It's very hard to debug unfortunately. I can't replicate it locally, only in a SLAD binary.
<stylewarning> with MPI, of all the god awful things to ruin debugability
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<stylewarning> the string it is attempting to READ-FROM-STRING is "COMMON-LISP:NIL"
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<pillton> What is a SLAD binary?
<Bike> save lisp and die
<pillton> Really? Are we saying that now?
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<Bike> It's hip.
* pillton goes to find the cool kids.
<aeth> s-l-a-d is its proper name
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<aeth> I think that the cool kids are busy doing post-functional declarative programming.
<aeth> Feel free to steal the buzzword, by the way.
<k-hos> all my programming is unfunctional
<k-hos> It's the newest trend
<k-hos> you write a lot of code and then none of it works
<aeth> "post-functional declarative programming" I guess would be declarative programming that's informed by recent trends in functional programming, but that's not functional.
<aeth> (It also is post-functional because it used to run before it was rewritten to use that paradigm)
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<stylewarning> pillton: is there a better way to say it
<stylewarning> the baffling thing about this issue is that it works sometimes
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<pillton> stylewarning: SLAD is fine I guess. Bike says it is hip and I am in no position to question Bike's wisdom on current street talk. I thought we said "a dumped image".
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<pierpa> stylewarning: no idea about this problem, but, just to exclude some hypothesis, can you see if changing the string to "COMMON-LISP::NIL" changes the result?
<|3b|> might also see what (symbol-name (list)) and (symbol-package (list)) return
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<|3b|> but generally, the cause would be uninterning NIL from CL
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<|3b|> (which is not a particularly conformant thing to do, so could cause any other random problems too)
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<fouric> yes, that sounds like a *terrible* idea
<|3b|> possibly something tried to unintern something else, without realizing it didn't have any something else (and so it had a NIL instead)
<|3b|> either that or something trying to be a tree-shaker and going a bit too far
<pierpa> since the problem appears to be pretty weird, we must test pretty weird hypotheses!
* |3b| tried, and it does have that effect, surprisingly without any package lock problems
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<|3b|> trying to READ cl::nil does get a package lock error afterwards though :p
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<shka_> beach: hello
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<phoe> Morning!
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<flip214> uh.... why does https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ say "site not installed"!?!?!
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<jackdaniel> I've mentioned it yesterday and pinged @elsconf on twitter
<flip214> jackdaniel: okay, thanks!
<jackdaniel> (no answer so far)
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<jackdaniel> I wrote a small piece about rendering and CLIM: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/posts/Sheets-as-ideal-forms.html
<jackdaniel> (ignited by work on the terminal backend)
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<flip214> Shinmera: your animated gif on article 364 has "Color<br>"
<flip214> and "Depth<br>"
<flip214> JFI
<Shinmera> I know
<flip214> oh, okay.
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<Shinmera> imagemagick is dumb about SVG for some reason
<flip214> HR is bugging me because of ELS registration...
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<Shinmera> Didier and I had a few problems yesterday and only got them all worked out by evening.
<Shinmera> So hopefully he'll get things up today.
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<flip214> ah, cool! thanks for the notice
<flip214> although, right now it looks more bleak than ever ;)
<Shinmera> One problem was his email hoster, so maybe that's related to the temp page being up, but I don't know.
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<p_l> anyone knows of somewhat complete SMTP implementation in Lisp? Specifically server-side...
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<knobo1> Can I check how much memory a collection of objects take up?
<flip214> knobo1: implementation-dependent.
<flip214> knobo1: for SBCL eg. sb-ext:object-size IIRC
<schweers> flip214: sb-ext:object-size doesn’t exist :/
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<beach> knobo1: How accurate do you need for it to be?
<beach> knobo1: Or, more generally, what is the reason for your question?
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<knobo1> I'm going to aproximate required memory usage for my application.
<beach> knobo1: For each standard object, the number of slots plus a few words overhead. For an array, the size times the element size. For a CONS cell, 2 words. For a symbol maybe 6 words or so.
<Shinmera> knobo1: Run the application and just use ROOM to see how much memory it uses total?
<Shinmera> GC is going to falsify any kind of precise memory estimation you might want to make anyway. It could keep garbage around for a long time, or freak out during GC even if potentially there's enough garbage around to recover.
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<knobo1> (sb-introspect::object-size (make-hash-table)) => 144
<schweers> huh. doesn’t exist on my sbcl. Is your sbcl version very new or very old?
<knobo1> 1.4.4 has it, 1.4.2 does not.
<schweers> uh. I just realized I have a fairly old sbcl installation myself. so nevermind my question ;)
<knobo1> When I inspect the hash table it reports Size: 128, object-size say 144
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<beach> knobo1: That's a small difference. Probably some header or other data that is not counted in the first number.
<beach> knobo1: Because of how the heaps are managed, you will never be able to get that kind of accuracy anyway.
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<shka> but isn't that hash table size, not actually byte size?
<shka> i always thought so!
<beach> shka: What is the definition of "hash table size"? The number of buckets? The number of elements? The number of buckets plus the data structure to store the elements in a bucket? Something else?
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<shka> beach: i don't know because standard does not explains that, http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_hash_4.htm but i would assume number of buckets
<shka> because that seems to make th most sense
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<loginoob> Is it ok to ask if someone here could become my mentor
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<thodg> what seems to be the right way of using CFFI enums ?
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<thodg> can't get it right from the docs
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<Shinmera> thodg: What do you mean by "the right way"?
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<Shinmera> enum foo { A, B, C } <=> (cffi:defcenum foo :a :b :c), and for functions that take or return an enum, just specify the type foo
<thodg> i find having ctype and constants more useful
<thodg> i mean compatible
<thodg> i want same size as c library
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<Shinmera> ?
<thodg> not a new enum definition
<thodg> but compatibility with .h enum
<Shinmera> I have no idea what you're going on about.
<thodg> i want a cffi wrapper for a C lib with same enum type sizes
<Shinmera> enums are typically ints, which is what cffi:defcenum will declare the type as.
<thodg> i feel safer with ctype than with enum which does not seem to take into account the existing definition
<Shinmera> What "existing definition"?
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<thodg> I thought so, but they can be bytes to
<Shinmera> There is no existing definition. Enums are not emitted into the shared library.
<thodg> so it's abi-dependant ?
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<Shinmera> You can adjust the base type of the enum with (defcenum (foo :base-type :whatever) ..)
<thodg> the c enum size is compiler dependant, it need to be grovelled
<thodg> and i dont see cffi grovel the enum size
<thodg> with cenum
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<loginoob> please someone be my mentor
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<Xach> loginoob: what's up?
<beach> loginoob: Why not. What do you expect from one?
<loginoob> I am expecting guidance as in what languages to learn and correct path of learning. I sometime have stupid questions like is learning javascript hindering my programing abilities, so i can ask these questions or better not to have these kinds of questions. Do i make sense?
<beach> loginoob: I am afraid that's too general for #lisp. This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<loginoob> oh
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<loginoob> ok no problem
<jmercouris> loginoob: feel free to PM me with any questions you have, I am not an "expert" lisp developer, but I am a professional developer
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<loginoob> jmercouris: Ok, thank you sir
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<jdz> I'll use a this quiet moment to ask a question: I bet somebody has travelled to Japan, I guess one would get appropriate amount of Yen along? Another option would be to bring
<jdz> € along, but then one would have to know an exchange that's not charging two skins.
<beach> jdz: These days I just bring my card(s).
<jdz> Also, have not seen any Japanese folk here, would be nice to meet up...
<beach> jdz: Not been to Japan. Just meant in general.
<jdz> beach: somehow I have an impression that they're not very keen on cards over there.
<Bike> They seem to have their own community.
<jdz> Oh, right.
<Bike> Japanese lisp i mean.
<beach> We have a steady ELS visitor from Japan. Can't remember his name right now though.
<jdz> beach: I know him, met him in Paris.
<beach> OK.
<jdz> The author of roswell, right?
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<jdz> I guess I'll use twitter for this.
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<beach> I don't know about the author of roswell, sorry.
<jdz> beach: no worries, thanks for the input.
<beach> jdz: Maybe you are thinking of Fukamachi. That is not who I am referring to.
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<beach> Ah, sorry. Sano Masatoshi. That might be him.
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<flip214> on SBCL, a call to (SB-BSD-SOCKETS:GET-HOST-BY-NAME x) with x being (VECTOR CHARACTER 20) gives an error: #<SB-KERNEL:CASE-FAILURE expected-type: (OR NULL (ALIEN (* CHAR)) SIMPLE-BASE-STRING SIMPLE-STRING)
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<Shinmera> jdz: I'll be in Japan around September, though I expect that'll be too far off for you to have a little lisp meet?
<jdz> Shinmera: yeah, I'm going next Monday :)
<Shinmera> In other news, Trial is back up on its feet and I can play around with live GL coding again, woo woo. https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRVeE5nPT0=
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<flip214> can somebody tell me in short, easy words the effective difference between SIMPLE-STRING and (VECTOR CHARACTER)? Apart from being "different" types, that is.
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<Bike> a (vector character) could be non-simple, for example being displaced or having a fill pointer
<Bike> on sbcl simple arrays do not have such things
<Shinmera> also they're not adjustable
<Shinmera> which usually saves an indirection
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<flip214> hmmm, I guess that's the reason -- the VECTOR might be displaced to the original file data
<flip214> thanks
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<flip214> so, perhaps SBCLs check-type should be changed?
<flip214> _this_ invocation of check-type, that is
<Bike> Why?
<Bike> Simple arrays and displaced arrays are totally different sorts of objects on SBCL. The underlying code to access them is distinct. So code can be written that works on only simple arrays.
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<flip214> Bike: but does this distinction make _any_ sense for (SB-BSD-SOCKETS:GET-HOST-BY-NAME x)?
<flip214> I guess that's fairly seldom performance-critical.
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<Bike> Beats me. But it wouldn't be a change to check-type or how it's invoked, it would be a change to get-host-by-name.
<flip214> well, what I'm trying to say is that some CHECK-TYPEs should include other possible STRING-related types.
<Bike> Since it's an OS interface it might pass the string as bytes.
<flip214> Bike: yeah, that's what I wanted to say with "_this_ invocation" of check-type
<Shinmera> The suggestion should be more that the function should automatically coerce to simple-string.
<Bike> Yeah.
<Shinmera> I'm quite sure the implementors didn't specify simple-string just for fun.
<Bike> And I mean, maybe. I really don't know.
<Bike> let's see, specifically g-h-b-n calls sockint::gethostbyname, which is ffi.
<Shinmera> simple-strings have a nice property in that they can be shared directly with C in a lexical context by pinning.
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<scymtym> coercing automatically at the high-level interface instead of forcing the user to do it sounds good to me
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<comborico1611> Can't figure out what's wrong.
<comborico1611> (defun rock-paper (a b)
<comborico1611> (if (and (equal a 'rock)
<comborico1611> (equal b 'rock))
<comborico1611> 'tie)
<comborico1611> (if (and (equal a 'paper)
<comborico1611> (equal b 'paper))
<comborico1611> 'tie)
<comborico1611> (if (and (equal a 'scissors)
<comborico1611> (equal b 'scissors))
<comborico1611> 'tie)
<comborico1611> (if (and (equal a 'rock)
<comborico1611> (equal b 'paper))
<comborico1611> (eval '('paper 'beats 'rock)))
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<comborico1611> (if (and (equal a 'rock)
<comborico1611> (equal b 'scissors))
<comborico1611> '(rock beats scissors))
<comborico1611> (if (and (equal a 'paper)
<comborico1611> (equal b 'rock))
<comborico1611> '(paper beats rock))
<comborico1611> (if (and (equal a 'paper)
<comborico1611> (equal b 'scissors))
<comborico1611> '(scissors beats paper)))
<comborico1611> If I redo a small section of such as
<Bike> paste! pastebin!
<Bike> don't dump twenty lines in the channel
<comborico1611> Oh, okay.
<comborico1611> Sorry.
<Bike> and don't use eval. that's probably related to the problem.
<comborico1611> Yeah, that was just a test. Trying to learn how to print a string of symbols without being contained in braces.
<dlowe> comborico1611: in the body of the defun, the function returns the last expression
<dlowe> so only the last if will return anything.
<comborico1611> I see.
<comborico1611> Thanks!
<dlowe> clhs cond
<dlowe> comborico1611: follow that link
<comborico1611> Yeah, I just forgot the nature.
<dlowe> you should still follow it, because it will show you a better way than lots of ifs
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<comborico1611> Yeah, I just looked up the answer in teh book. I see. I must also be half asleep, because I thought I posted this in the #clnoobs
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<Shinmera> ELS registrations are open! https://twitter.com/elsconf/status/971041480092602372
<beach> YAY!
<Shinmera> If there's any problems, let me know.
<easye> Sorry if I missed it, but <http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/> is down and not coming back?
<Shinmera> It is coming back of course, but I suspect there's hoster trouble
<Shinmera> hence the temp site.
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<comborico1611> pjb: You wrote that rock paper scissors game?
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<pjb> comborico1611: yes, I did.
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<fafff> hi
<fafff> I want to write a macro
<fafff> I have (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) '(1 2 3) '(1 1 1))
<fafff> and I want (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1)) , where k1 is my macro
<fafff> how can I do that?
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<Bike> you mean k1 expands into two lists?
<fafff> yes
<Bike> you can't do that
<Bike> why do you want to do that, and why do you want to do it with a macro? Could you provide context?
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<fafff> I have to do some operations on sets of lists
<fafff> there are more lists
<fafff> and I want to write this faster
<fafff> in C for example I could do stuff like like this, replacing a keyword with blocks of code
<Bike> that's because C macros are textual. Lisp macros are more involved in the actual syntax.
<Bike> You can put a macro form where you'd put any other expression, but a macro form ccan't be multiple expressions.
<Bike> It's likely there's a way to avoid repetition like you want, but it's hard to say how with so little information.
<k-hos> you can have a macro result in multiple expressions
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<fafff> k-hos: how?
<Bike_> if you try to explain progn to me i'm going to be mad
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<__rumbler31> I wouldn't explain progn to you.. but thats what you'd use
<Bike_> no!
<Bike_> look! at the context! in which the question was asked!
<Bike_> does progn make any damned sense there?
<__rumbler31> to be fair, I don't fully understand what he's trying to do, but I should have qualified, if you need a macro to return multiple forms, you use progn
<Bike_> ahdfshn
<Bike_> they don't want multiple side effects
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<Bike_> they want a macro that expands into multiple arguments to map
<Bike_> this is nothing something that macros do
<Bike_> you could use a function that returns multiple values, or a macro replacing map, or any number of things
<Bike_> which is why i asked what they're doing more specifically so i could maybe pick which direction seemed best
<__rumbler31> ok, i'm speaking in general, and not at all about the op's problem
<Bike_> why
<stylewarning> "Man shouts at the clouds"
<__rumbler31> nevermind
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<__rumbler31> I was confused about the context of the discussion at hand, so "at the time I was speaking about what I thought was a more general discussion"
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<pjb> fafff: you can write (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1)) on the condition of wrapping it into a normal (operator argument) form.
<pjb> fafff: (with-k1 (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1)))
<pjb> then you write the with-k1 macro, to analyse the sexp (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1)) and replace it with (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) l1 l2)
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<pjb> but k1 won't be a macro. It will be something that the with-k1 macro will process.
<pjb> fafff: now, if you have a list of list, for example returned by a function f1, you can write (apply (function map) 'list (function +) (f1))
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<fafff> pjb: thx
<fafff> it makes sense
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<pjb> fafff: notice SUBST et al.
<pjb> clhs subst
<pjb> But it may be a little violent. You may want to use a code walker to interpret (k1) correctly: (with-k1 (list (k1) (labels ((k1 () 'foo)) (k1)) (k1))) only the first and last (k1) must be substituted, the (k1) in the middle refers to the function k1 defined by labels.
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<stylewarning> "you may want to use a code walker" ;; people always suggest this, but is there actually a usable code walker out therE?
<Shinmera> Not a portable one as far as I know because that's hard
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<attila_lendvai> hu.dwim.walker is ours, and it was used in non-trivial applications (uses contextl for fine grained customability)
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<emaczen> How do you define a pointer type with CFFI? With the C code being: type *name;
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<phoe> emaczen: you don't.
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<phoe> pointers in CFFI do not have a type.
<phoe> you specify the type only when you dereference a pointer.
<Shinmera> You can say (:pointer type), but it's equivalent to :pointer as it doesn't do anything with it.
<Shinmera> pointers are just pointers after all
<pjb> stylewarning: AFAIK, the only implementation that has an implementation specific special operator is sbcl. This is the only #+ you need in a code walker.
<phoe> pjb: what is that operator?
<pjb> Now, of course, a good portable code walker would have to provide its own CL macros…
<pjb> Ah, there's also: (ccl:nfunction) and in clisp, cl:function is used with an extension (a second parameter).
<pjb> But as I said, it's no problem if the code walker provides its own set of standard CL macros.
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<pjb> Implementation specific special operators (without a corresponding macro) would be particularly problematic if used in implementation specific macros (in extension packages).
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<emaczen> phoe: when a type is declared in C isn't it also allocated?
<Shinmera> A pointer is a pointer and has one size, no matter which type it points to.
<emaczen> Shinmera: I'm having trouble arefing a foreign pointer/array the type of the array is an opaque type just defined like: struct name;
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<axg`> maybe you can define it as an alias to *void? types aren't "allocated" when defined beyond as data within cffi/the c compiler
<emaczen> Or, maybe my issue is setting this pointer...
<emaczen> the C code initializes the pointer like: type **name; and then passes it in the function call via func(&name)
<Bicyclidine> you have no addressof in lisp. if you want to pass a pointer you have to allocate a pointer
<Bicyclidine> in other words, probs add a * to the type
<Bicyclidine> cffi doesn't really care about the type beyond knowing that it's a pointer, though
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