jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<White_Flame> hmm, the slime highlight in emacs doesn't work for #+not-found #p"foo". It shows the #p in comment color, but highlights the string in regular colors
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<White_Flame> paredit also considers the #p and the string to be 2 separate entities when moving parens
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<galex-713> how do you do nonblocking io in lisp?
<galex-713> like with select/poll/epoll in C?
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<no-defun-allowed> I thought there was something in usocket which let you poll/select connections, but I can't find it. There are libraries for nonblocking IO, but they undoubtedly put you in callback hell.
<galex-713> I see
<galex-713> but do they work for files?
<galex-713> like local IO
<galex-713> and streams
<galex-713> like standard input
<galex-713> or keyboard
<no-defun-allowed> From memory the only way to do non-blocking IO on files involves the POSIX asynchronous IO stuff which isn't commonly used.
<galex-713> not select?
<galex-713> or is that select?
<no-defun-allowed> No, select always reports that the file descriptor is available for files.
<galex-713> oh :o :c
<galex-713> and libevent/libev don’t support it?
<galex-713> what is that posix io stuff? does it involves ioctl?
<no-defun-allowed> I'm not kidding when I say this - I think the nicest way to write non-blocking IO code is to use ABCL on a Java 17 preview with the Loom extension. That way you have green threads and asynchronous IO with straight-line programs.
<no-defun-allowed> I think libev uses another thread pool for file IO. Or maybe that was Erlang/OTP. Perhaps both.
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<beach> jcowan: What phoe and no-defun-allowed said. There would have to be some way of "serializing" part of the object graph in a way that makes sense when it is de-serialized on the other end. I haven't worked out the details yet, because that's not the (to me) interesting part of CLOSOS.
<no-defun-allowed> See https://bluishcoder.co.nz/self/transporter.pdf for an idea of how one can transport objects between images. Some of it would not be relevant to CLOS, as it assumes a prototype-based single-dispatch and message-passing language, whereas CLOS is class-based with generic functions with multiple dispatch. But it should give an idea of what would be done to make transporting work.
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<beach> In several places, including the saving/loading of ASTs in Cleavir, I have used an idea i basically got from the CLIM specification, which is that the class structure should not be used. Instead I rely on the relevant protocol items, namely initargs and accessors.
<beach> Doing it that way has the additional advantage that it is less sensitive to updates of the class hierarchy.
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<beach> This mechanism is used for saving an AST to file and from creating an AST from a file, but we use it also to clone an AST in memory.
<beach> The format of the serialization is particularly simple and it works quite well. We use Common Lisp PRINT and READ. The reader is programmed so that the charater #\[ has special meaning. The format is [<package>::class-name :<initarg1> :<value1> ... :<initargn> :<valuen>]
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<beach> The reader macro for #\[ simply does (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list #\[ <stream>))
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<no-defun-allowed> Yes, "abstract initialization" is also a topic of the paper. Though it also handles preserving object identity (unless marked as unnecessary by the programmer), and transporting code.
<beach> But I guess something like LOAD-TIME-VALUE is required for stuff like hash tables.
<beach> How does it "handle" object identity?
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<no-defun-allowed> Hm. Would (#1=[blah] #1#) give you a list with the same object (by EQ) in the list twice?
<beach> The technique I described preserves object identity automatically within a "file" through the use of #= and ##.
<beach> Yes.
<beach> READ is very capable.
<beach> That's also how we do circularity.
<beach> ... because our ASTs are not trees, and not even DAGs.
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<no-defun-allowed> The code generator maintains a table of temporary bindings for objects and reuses them. A written out Self module is a program which installs it into the system.
<beach> But the mechanism requires the user to explicitly say, for each class involved, what initargs are relevant, and what accessors to use to fetch values for those initargs.
<beach> That kind of mechanism would be excellent to use in order to install viruses and other stuff on your system.
<no-defun-allowed> Indeed. That is quite similar to the "annotations" used in Self, and generally the transporter design struck me as a slightly more abstracted-away MAKE-LOAD-FORM.
<no-defun-allowed> Yes, you probably would not want to do transporting exactly like that if you don't trust the author of the module.
<beach> Exactly. So some slightly safer mechanism would be preferable. The one we use for ASTs does not execute arbitrary code.
<beach> But it can also not handle every possible case.
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<no-defun-allowed> (The other approach, which I always mention when someone tells me that running random bytecode in a client program is going to lead to the client getting hacked, is to sandbox the program and put limits on execution time and space.)
<beach> Sure but that technique doesn't always work. For instance, if what you are loading into your system is just data that you want to use in some other code, like a text document or a music score.
<no-defun-allowed> Right. As I see it, a safe version of the transporter would return the objects produced, allowing them to be used outside the sandbox.
<beach> Ah, yes, I see what you mean.
<no-defun-allowed> If we allow for transporting code still, we could still produce objects which do undesirable things. For example, an attacker might write out code to subclass MUSIC-SCORE, then define a method specialized on that subclass, for a generic function which the score reader calls.
<no-defun-allowed> Then the transporter would return an instance of that new class. However, in my opinion, that is an argument for running the score reader (and really any program) with as few capabilities as possible.
<beach> It is a bit too early for me (I haven't finished my morning coffee yet) to think through all cases. But it is an interesting problem, and I will be happy to include a chapter in the CLOSOS specification if someone would like to work out the details.
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<pjb> beach: I think you mean: (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list #\] <stream>))
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<beach> Ah, yes, sorry.
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<Nilby> (write (make-hash-table) :readably t) sometimes feels like a slap in the face.
<no-defun-allowed> Most proposals for readable hash tables I've seen forget about the test function.
<no-defun-allowed> Not to say that adding somewhere to put a test function isn't easy, but most people forget it.
<Nilby> and implemntation specific things like :weakness, and that it won't work with *read-eval* nil
<Nilby> or rather, some implemntations it won't work.
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<splittist> FWIW, my current thinking on CLIME is to use it as an enhanced PRINT-OBJECT etc. for development. There are times when a cool visualisation of what is happening would assist. If I have a kewl-project/clime system for development (just as I have a kewl-project/test), and there is a library of visualisations to build on (CLIME:AS-CONS-TREE etc) then the slime repl would have even more superpowers.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> splittist: cool, I don't know if you were influenced by my slime-media demos, but I was hoping those demos would produce something like this :)
<fiddlerwoaroof> I guess lukego is involved here too
<splittist> lukego is the one. But, yes, seeing all the clim goodness folks are doing makes me want to have it NOW (:
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<fiddlerwoaroof> This is what I get for reading the logs backwards :)
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<lukego> this close --> <-- to getting ACCEPT to respect the requested type but time for brekky and getting 7yo to school
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I guess I can wait a bit
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<fiddlerwoaroof> :)
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<ebrasca> Morning!
<fiddlerwoaroof> lukego: I contributed this a while ago to slime as well: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/slime-buffer-streams.el
<fiddlerwoaroof> It only provides text streams, basically, but the use-casees overlap slightly
<fiddlerwoaroof> I usually use this from things like drakma:*header-stream* where I want to see some debugging info, but I don't want to clutter the repl
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Cool stuff, I'm getting weird rendering on my Mac at the moment, but I'll be watching with interest
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<lukego> fiddlerwoaroof: nice !
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<lukego> fiddlerwoaroof: yeah that sounds like the sort of feature you could use many times per day. I do basically the same thing in emacs lisp code quite a lot.
<lukego> I think this would play well with CLIME i.e. to be able to output presentations to such buffers instead of just the REPL.
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<lukego> I don't think there's actually anything at all currently tying CLIME to the REPL except that's where images happen to be printed by default. you can also e.g. copy/paste them into other buffers and they still work. The presentation enable/disable code is globally searching all buffers for the special slime-clime-foo text property that marks an image to update.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Interesting
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<lukego> we should also have a way to assign images IDs like (with-output-to-emacs (s :id :foo) ...) such that when you use the same ID again it updates the existing image(s) in Emacs rather than inserting a new one. that way you can do animation-like things.
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<splittist> woahh.
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<lukego> you little ripper! I have typed ACCEPT working now B)
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<lukego> I might take a breather before continuing onto the next major topic which is commands
<fiddlerwoaroof> The bounding boxes seem to be calculated incorrectly on my computer
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<lukego> thanks for trying it out !
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<lukego> Yeah seems like there's a mismatch somewhere. I think the visual bounding box is being calculated by McCLIM but then the differently-sized image is being rendered by SVG. So they are not in agreement somehow..
<lukego> splittist: I pushed jackdaniel's suggested fix for the output records ordering issue i.e. to reverse the records. So you will need to update your demos to draw the background first rather than last :)
<lukego> fiddlerwoaroof: if you want a nasty workaround you could just draw a black rectangle at the beginning to define a minimum canvas size
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<jackdaniel> congrats :)
<splittist> lukego: noted.
<fiddlerwoaroof> I think there's also a font metrics issue
* lukego is woefully ignorant of all things fonts
<fiddlerwoaroof> When I inspected a generated SVG, the text was being placed too closeto the top of the bock
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<lukego> one more idea rattling around my brain is to somehow make (with-output-to-emacs (s) ...) optional. So if you'd just call e.g. (draw-rectangle* ...) directly in the REPL it would still give you the graphics when the evaluation ends. Somehow implicitly have a CLIM canvas for the extent of a SLIME invocation.
<jackdaniel> draw-rectangle* takes the stream argument either way (and it is not default), you need to bind it somehow
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<jdz> lukego: How about merging that into WITH-ROOM-FOR-GRAPHICS (if I remember the name correctly)?
<jdz> That way the code would be the same as one would use in CLIM listener.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Here's my old attempt in this vein
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<lukego> jackdaniel: true but maybe T could work? *standard-output* still be bound to a SLIME-OUTPUT-STREAM and we could hang CLIM methods on that?
<lukego> fiddlerwoaroof: nice!
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<fiddlerwoaroof> There's also the controls emacs uses in customize
<lukego> jdz: hm not sure how that would work exactly. I guess the listener has a bunch of code all painting onto the same canvas and having to avoid clobbering each other here. in Emacs each drawing is a separate object and they are patched together like a collage
<jackdaniel> it won't in this case I think. also, slime output stream does not have output recording
<jackdaniel> otoh re what fiddlerwoaroof that could work
<lukego> maybe some e.g. BEFORE method could swap out the stream just-in-time?
<jackdaniel> you specialize the method invoke-with-room-for-graphics on slime-output-stream and wrap in with-output-to-emacs-stream instead
<jackdaniel> also with-room-for-graphics *will* work with T
<jackdaniel> it may be worth ensuring that :first-quadrant is nil
<jackdaniel> (default is T)
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<lukego> ah!
<jackdaniel> instead of before you could make a trampoline, but that will work only for functions you provide methods for
<moon-child> whence the 'prog' in prog*?
<no-defun-allowed> The PROGram feature, I think.
<jdz> moon-child: Same as LET in LET*?
<moon-child> no-defun-allowed: ahh, thanks
<moon-child> jdz: I was using * as a glob, not a suffix :)
<jdz> Yes, I definitely missed that reading of the question.
<jackdaniel> it was meant to abbreviate prodigy, but someone made a typo and it stands for a progidy ,)
<lukego> what kind of smiley is ,) btw :)
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<moon-child> an unquoted one!
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<splittist> I would be surprised if there weren't problems with the text stuff. It was working, then I tried to get smart (:
<jackdaniel> lukego: basically ;), I don't remember when and why I've started using i
<jackdaniel> s/i/it/
* lukego involuntarily sings Get Smart theme
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<splittist> fiddlerwoaroof: if you used draw-text* directly, does the same thing happen? Also, generally, we should apply the transformations and clipping
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<lotuseater> hi there, after updating emacs and sbcl, then invoking slime i got a mysterious error
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<lotuseater> anyone an idea what i could do now?
<lukego> lotuseater: I think that I had this recently too, and the solution was to upgrade to a newer SLIME (or I suppose alternatively downgrade SBCL)
<lukego> git clone https://github.com/slime/slime ~ && echo '(load "~/slime/slime.el")' >> ~/.emacs
<lukego> maybe I mean ~/slime instead of ~ but hopefully you get the idea
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<lotuseater> ok thx I'll try
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<lotuseater> with loading sbcl_2_0_8 it works :)
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<Josh_2> Afternoon
<luis> |3b|: you got me slightly obsessed with slime issue 617
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<beach> Hello Josh_2.
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<flip214> scymtym: thanks, will take a look
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<Josh_2> Hey beach, how is your work coming along?
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<beach> Josh_2: Slow today because of other chores, but otherwise fine. You?
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<Josh_2> beach: slow progress is better than no progress. I have been really dreading some work I had to do so I've been putting it off, right now I have sat down and I'm going to get it done :P
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<beach> Good. Then you can quit thinking about it after it's done.
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<Josh_2> Exactly
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<splittist> lukego: I can't seem to make with-output-as-presentation work. I get 'error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: assert'
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<splittist> On the plus side, I've tracked down the problem with stream margins.
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<phoe> assert? isn't that a CL symbol?
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<lukego> splittist: hm! I'll remove that, must be loaded separately in my env
<lukego> (pushed)
<lukego> splittist: wow !!
<splittist> Also, if you produce a giant image (by, for example, doing a format-graph-from-roots for all the subclasses of clim:design, emacs really doesn't like it ...
<splittist> insert close paren in the obvious place above
<lukego> I hope you don't mind me syndicating your screenshots on twitter :)
* lukego attends to dog and family but will check this out in the morning :)
<splittist> What is this 'twitter' thing? Best to family (and dog).
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<splittist> lukego: for the morning - now it complains about 'second' (:
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<lotuseater> hm how can i try that out myself with mcclim in emacs? :)
<dieggsy> have any of you seen an issue with sly and ACL where it says polling ... infinitely
<lotuseater> oh you use sly with ACL2? cool
<dieggsy> well, i use sly with SBCL, but i just started using ACL for work
<dieggsy> tryina set it all up
<lukego> splittist: oj my common lisp accent is really hurting my elisp :)
<splittist> lotuseater: you need (from github) the nuddyco/McClim cloned into your quicklisp/local-projects/ (or wherever you put those things), then the nuddyco/slime somewhere in your emacs load-path, remembering to use the slime-clime contrib.
<lukego> gonna need a test suite shortly..
<MichaelRaskin> Allegro CL, not ACL2 the proof system, right?
<Xach> dieggsy: i also use allegro cl for work, but no issues starting sly.
<lotuseater> ahh, names and the associations in my head clashed :D
<dieggsy> lotuseater MichaelRaskin yeah whoops sorry allegro cl heh
<lukego> push an s/second/cadr/
<dieggsy> Xach: what OS are you on? i wonder if it's some weird macOS thing. normally i run linux
<lotuseater> but thx dieggsy, reminds me to learn more how to use ACL2 for proving
<lotuseater> thx splittist
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<splittist> lukego: now do 'text-property-search-forward' ...
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<lukego> okay let me fire up an `emacs -q` :)
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<lukego> grr why doesn't (require 'text-property-search) work
<lukego> oh maybe it's just a bleeding edge emacs feature? I have it in 27 but not 26
<lukego> okay, sorry a bit late at night to backport that. maybe just load this file https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/lisp/emacs-lisp/text-property-search.el
<lukego> will fix tomorrow
<splittist> I have 27.2
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<lukego> weird. the function is in the manual anyway so I'm not sure whassap. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Property-Search.html
<splittist> lukego: requiring text-property-search, and fixing a 'first' (-> car) and it works!
<lukego> huzzah!
* splittist goes back to wondering how to handle transformations
<lukego> pushed hopefully a fix for that. now going to watch some Call My Agent ..
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<dieggsy> oh, i'm seeing an error in the inferior-lisp buffer: Error: Symbol "PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAMES" not found in EXCL package.
<phoe> EXCL?
<phoe> is this CLISP?
<phoe> wait, it's ACL
<phoe> do you have all patches downloaded?
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<dieggsy> oof, patches?
<phoe> I know that PLNs are only available on Allegro if it's updated
<phoe> t
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<phoe> AFAIK it's this one
<dieggsy> ah shucks.
<phoe> at least it was this one the last time I mailed Kevin Layer about it
<dieggsy> i might be out of luck in this case lol
<phoe> can't you tell your ACL to update itself?
<dieggsy> phoe: woah, can i ?
<phoe> of course you can
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<dieggsy> phoe: i just started using allegro like, today
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<dieggsy> what's the command for that?
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<phoe> looks like (sys:update-allegro) and then rebuild your image
<phoe> https://franz.com/support/patches/ has more information
<dieggsy> oh, there's a handy update.sh script
<dieggsy> i'll try that
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<dieggsy> phoe: hey, that seemed to work! thank you
<phoe> dieggsy: <3
<phoe> now let's wait for Lispworks to finally update
<lotuseater> how is your experience with those commercial implementations?
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<phoe> close to zero - I only run them to check some things for portability libraries
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<phoe> I run SBCL 99% of the time and CCL 1% of the time
<lotuseater> okay
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<lotuseater> just all those specialities of SBCL are of huge amount
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<pjb> ccl:95%, clisp:4%, sbcl:1%
<pjb> ecl, abcl, 0.ε%
<lotuseater> oh interesting, ccl the most :)
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<pjb> lotuseater: since macOS is my current workstation…
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<lotuseater> ah, so ccl works better on it?
<pjb> lotuseater: yes, and it has a GUI: Clozure CL.app in the AppStore.
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<lotuseater> and then there's Clozure Associates company
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<lotuseater> pjb: and i once got the impression of lispworks by reading on their website it has also good support on mac for building "apps"
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<CL-ASHOK> Common Lisp Recipes by Professor Weitz is such an underated gem
<CL-ASHOK> IMO one of the best books out there - its been the most useful for me
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<lotuseater> CL-ASHOK: yes I learned much from it :)
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<lotuseater> and furthermore, he's really friendly, I wrote some mails with him last year
<lotuseater> or the lectures on his youtube channel (mostly in german) are also very interesting
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<pjb> lotuseater: indeed, but it's a commercial implementation. freenode is for discussion of free(dom) software ;-)
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<lotuseater> yes, "free as in freedom" :)
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<splittist> lukego: text bounding rectangles hopefully fixed https://snipboard.io/u5SiE4.jpg
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<splittist> and one for the road https://snipboard.io/Z84UlJ.jpg
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<luis> splittist: are there any bits that could be used by slime without clim for visualizing things? E.g., it’d be nice to draw class hierarchies in the inspector (or a new class browser, bits of which I’ve got in the works)
<luis> I’m guessing the layouting is done by CLIM :-/
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<luis> Though augmenting bits and pieces when CLIM’s available could be an option
<phoe> or have a slime contrib that requires clim to be loaded on the CL side
<phoe> or attempts to load it on its own, I guess?
<luis> splittist, lukego: does this new toy do nested presentations?
<luis> phoe: yeah, something like that.
<phoe> luis: or even better - have a slime contrib that follows some sort of swank-ish protocol on the CL side
<phoe> and then clim or whatever other software can participate in that protocol
<phoe> therefore becoming a client who provides image data to be displayed by slime
<phoe> this way you become clim-agnostic with a thin layer of intermediate stuff in the middle
<phoe> this way you can load it independently of clim, you just won't be able to display anything by default until clim or some other client is loaded
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<luis> phoe: right, there are a couple of ways to customize the inspector and things like that but is
<luis> ... is definitely underused
<phoe> looks like lukego and splittist found a nice way of solving that underusage!
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<nij> Is there any tendency among the #lisp community to move toward a nix/guix-like package (or called systems in CL's term) management strategy, if tools are available?
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<tychoish> I think a lot of scheme folks use guix because the package manager is written in guile (maybe? I think?)
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<tychoish> and like there are guix/nix users everywhere, but CL is very multiplatform
<nij> Yeah.. but none of the CL's platform is close to guix/nix afaik, in the sense of reproducibility.
<tychoish> I mean, depends, but yeah
<nij> Guix/nix have their good. So I wonder the CL community has the need to move toward it.
<tychoish> yeah, guix/nix are also hella annoying?
<nij> tychoish: Umm I guess so, haven't really tried them seriously. But what they promise seems great.
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<nij> Developers don't have to worry too much on dependency breakage that often.
<tychoish> "that often"
<tychoish> and "as long as everything runs in guix/nix" and "as long as you don't dynamically link anything"
<tychoish> and there are ways that guix/nix assume a compilation model that doesn't really apply to CL? and there are ways to sort of get a lot of the same benefit?
<nij> All are very good points. Yeah, I don't know.
<nij> Are there discussions on this before?
<tychoish> I'm not particularly aware of any
<tychoish> maybe in the asdf list?
<nij> What's the asdf list?
<nij> mailing list?
<tychoish> like if there's a development list serv for asdf ( the build system for cl)
<tychoish> I think there are definitely buildsystem and compilation improvements to be made: like it'd be nice to be able to cross compile things, or be able to have per-project quicklisp dependencies/etc.
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<nij> I also fancy pinning down a dependency by its hash, not version.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> nij: my main issue with nix/guix for CL is that I would then have to restart my REPL to install new dependencies
<fiddlerwoaroof> That's like going back to Windows's "restart to install updates" for me
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