#lisp on 2021-05-22 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2021-05-19 15:00 ChanServ changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>

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03:03 <beach> Good morning everyone!

03:13 <jcowan> "Officially moved" is not a coherent concept

03:14 <jcowan> beach: I've read your paper on updating the ANS with interest

03:16 <beach> The WSCL stuff?

03:16 <beach> Oh, no, I think I know what you mean.

03:16 <beach> OK.

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03:19 <jcowan> http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/updating-the-standard.html

03:19 <beach> Yes.

03:19 <beach> I take it you have some remarks, yes?

03:21 <jcowan> It's based, as far as I can tell, on a "consensus between implmenters" model of standardization.

03:22 <beach> Oh? That's an interesting way of viewing it.

03:24 <jcowan> However, it does not consider the "contract between users and implmenters model."

03:25 <jcowan> As the C++ committee wrote: "A standard is a contract between implementers and users, to make it possible for users to write portable code. It's supposed to say what implementers are permitted to do, what they're required to do, and what users can and can't count on."

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03:26 <beach> I am not sure I had that level of ambition when I wrote that page.

03:27 <beach> I merely wanted to explain to newbies what the situation for Common Lisp is.

03:27 * jcowan nods

03:27 <jcowan> Fair enough.

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03:30 <johnjay> the c/c++ thing as i understand it does a little of both

03:31 <johnjay> having a "standard" and then adding in features to it when they get popular enough

03:32 <johnjay> i suppose if one wanted to take this seriously you could implement a new version standard every decade indefinitely

03:33 <jcowan> indeed

03:35 <jcowan> Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course it takes time for implementations to catch up, although new implementation will tend to adopt the most recent version: at least that's been the experience with R7RS Scheme, which used the contract model, as opposed to R6 which used the consensus model

03:35 <jcowan> Another line from the C committee: "Existing code matters, existing implementations do not."

03:38 <johnjay> what is that part it keeps hinting at about adding a feature making the compiler impossible to optimize?

03:38 <johnjay> it mentioned eval and lexical environments but are there others

03:38 <jcowan> I've found that sort of thing when diggimng through old Lisps

03:39 <jcowan> or newer lisps based on the old ones

03:39 <johnjay> existing code matters. but i wouldn't say over everything else

03:39 <beach> johnjay: The Common Lisp standard was carefully crafted so that they knew that the features would allow for a compiler to generate good code.

03:39 <johnjay> i see

03:40 <beach> johnjay: When random newbies without any training in language design or compiler design suggest additions to the standard, they do not take stuff like that into account.

03:40 <jcowan> At the time, with AOT compilers and slow computers

03:40 <|3b|> specifying things that might not match a particular CPU architecture can be hard to optimize

03:40 <johnjay> well that's the other thing, hardware capabilities change and that does matter

03:41 <beach> johnjay: Another simple issue may be that the standard does not allow the user to redefine standard functions.

03:41 <|3b|> (which is a common reason for undefined behavior in C for example)

03:41 <johnjay> it's not really a convincing argument to say "this feature could be added now with modern hardware but we don't want to."

03:41 <beach> johnjay: If it did, then the compiler could not inline any standard functions.

03:41 <beach> johnjay: No, it's not a simple thing about faster hardware.

03:42 <beach> johnjay: It has to do with whether an entire host of compiler optimization techniques are even possible at all.

03:42 <johnjay> beach: if the user is specifying that ability then shouldn't they be willing to take the consequences of it?

03:42 <beach> johnjay: And that's what your typical newbie doesn't understand, because your typical newbie has no training in those domains whatsoever.

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03:42 <jcowan> There are a lot of stupid UBs in C

03:43 <beach> johnjay: I am not expressing myself very well. Let me give you an example from the EVAL thing, OK?

03:43 <|3b|> yeah, "we hate users" is another common reason for UB in C :/

03:43 <beach> johnjay: Let's say the standard allows for EVAL to have access to lexical environment...

03:44 <jcowan> Tis is my favorite bit: "A nonempty source file does not end in a new-line character which is not immediately preceded by a backslash character or ends in a partial preprocessing token or comment [is undefined behavior]"

03:44 <beach> johnjay: Then the programmer writes (let ((x 234)) ... (eval (read)))

03:45 <beach> johnjay: Since the compiler can't know what will be evaluated, it may contain a reference to X, so even though X could be optimized away, the compiler can't do that.

03:45 <jcowan> Because at the time of standardization, two compilers treated that obvious error differently, so it was stamped "UB" instead of fixing it.

03:46 <beach> johnjay: So it has nothing to do with what the user does. It has to do with what the standard allows. The compiler writer must take into account the possibility of the user writing any conforming code.

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03:47 <beach> *sigh* another wasted attempt to get important information across.

03:48 <jcowan> Isn't that what teachers signed up for?

03:48 <jcowan> (My parents were university professors.)

03:48 <nij> lol.. true

03:50 <beach> jcowan: It appears to be the reality, but I am not sure that fact is known when people "sign up".

03:50 <jcowan> I suppose. I got to see the underside of the profession from an early age.

03:52 <nij> Sometimes the message got passed through, and that could be exciting.

03:52 <jcowan> Anyway, a "ping timeout" doesn't mean johnjay left in disgust; it's a network connectivity issue.

03:53 <beach> Indeed.

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03:58 <beach> johnjay: Does that make sense to you?

03:58 <johnjay> no i was disconnected the whole time

03:58 <johnjay> sorry

03:59 <nij> You can read the log here if interested: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp

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04:15 <jcowan> Imagine trying to implement Picolisp shallowly on top of CL or Scheme. All looks well until you find that NIL is not only false and (), it is also "", least fixnum, an EOF object, stdin, stdout, NaN, the top of the type hierarchy, and "no value".

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04:16 <jcowan> Numbers are also functions, strings are symbols, the list goes on

04:17 <beach> It sounds like an exercise I would rather not attempt.

04:18 <jcowan> So I concluded

04:18 <jcowan> Of course you could write a picolisp interpreter in CL, but that would provide little advantage over writing it in C.

04:20 <beach> Some advantage, maybe. But the "shallow" part is gone.

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04:33 <johnjay> i was wondering the other day why not make all those things nil

04:33 <johnjay> or at least for purposes of looping

04:37 <johnjay> by the way my internet is unstable so i randomly disconnect sometimes

04:38 <johnjay> unfortunately as in this case it can happen at awkward times!

04:38 <johnjay> beach: that example makes me think of the -O0,-O1, etc flags in C, where you can explicitly ask for what optimizations to turn on or disallow

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04:38 <johnjay> meaning if the user *wants* slow or inefficient code... why not let them

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04:47 <beach> johnjay: That's not the choice that was made. I suspect that, since most application programmers have no clue about language design or compiler design, they would not understand the trade-offs.

04:48 <beach> ... and then they would complain that "Lisp is slow".

04:49 <remexre> maybe missing some context, but

04:49 <remexre> found it really interesting that (safety 0) isn't "anything goes"

04:50 <remexre> but rather that the spec enumerates (rather subtly, unfortunately) what behavior can do unfortunate things in the name of performance

04:51 <remexre> and I guess, that it isn't "any type error"

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20:08 <harovali> hi there, let's say I want to install sly, and I have slime installed. Do you think it is good idea to delete slime beforhand? If so, how it is safe to delete slime?

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20:11 <brass> harovali: What are you worried is going to happen when you delete slime?

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20:13 <harovali> brass: no, that should not worry. Just that I'm lost as of deleting something I installed maybe via asdf , maybe via quicklisp, maybe another way.

20:13 <harovali> brass, addingly, I wonder if people delete slime when puttin sly, I don't know, I just supose they do that

20:14 <brass> I use sly, it works well

20:14 <harovali> brass: thanks

20:14 <brass> The lisp code used by slime is kept inside the emacs package

20:14 <brass> So when you uninstall it, it's removed

20:15 <harovali> brass that's interesting, thanks too.

20:15 <brass> np

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