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<nij>
Hello! I cannot figure out why flet fails to bind a function in a lexical environment: https://bpa.st/3VPQ .. While evaluated, it complains that #'adhoc-test is unbound.
<Bike>
satisfies works with global function names
<Bike>
typep is just a function, so it doesn't know anything about the lexical environment it's called in
<phoe>
I have no idea what DAO-CLASS is, but I assume that it's a typo problem between USER-ID versus USER-IP
<phoe>
or rather, IDA versus ID in line two
<ebrasca>
I did try to change id to ida.
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<ebrasca>
DAO-CLASS is a Postmodern
<ebrasca>
thing
<beach>
Why does it not have a package prefix?
<ebrasca>
(:import-from :postmodern :dao-class)
<beach>
ebrasca: My guess is that the metaclass requires you to have a slot named user-id, but your slot is named ida.
<beach>
I see.
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<beach>
ebrasca: So by importing that symbol, you med it impossible for both phoe and me to determine that this symbol came from Postmodern.
<beach>
*you made it
<phoe>
beach: eh, it's OK once he mentioned where it came from
<beach>
I don't agree.
<phoe>
I guess that postmodern docs should be able to solve this problem, or maybe someone with more postmodern dao experience
<beach>
I think it's a bad idea.
<phoe>
beach: honestly I think the same, but I know everything I need once he mentioned the import
<ebrasca>
beach: I don't understand you!
<beach>
phoe: Sure, but ebrasca is also contributing to SICL, and the style guide for SICL, explicitly calls for explicit package prefixes, possibly using package-local nicknames.
<ebrasca>
I will not ask if i did kvow how to fix it.
<phoe>
beach: I don't think this code is a part of SICL
<beach>
It is not.
<phoe>
then why expect SICL style on non-SICL code
<beach>
But if ebrasca doesn't understand the reason for the rule, then it is likely going to be a problem in the SICL contributions too.
<ebrasca>
beach: I am starting to fix reddit1.0 ...
<phoe>
that's a different problem I guess
<beach>
OK, I'll be quiet.
<ebrasca>
beach: Your style guide is a bit bad. See this one https://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/ , I think it is more easy to understand.
<beach>
Yes, I understand.
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<ebrasca>
Why Line length of 80? Is it not to sort for CL?
<beach>
It's not important.
<ebrasca>
Why not 100?
<beach>
I mean, it is not important why I want that.
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<beach>
I am not trying to be aggressive. I am just tired of arguing stuff like this, over and over. I made up my mind about the SICL style guide. Saying that it is "bad" is not helping.
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<ebrasca>
I did not say it is all bad , I did say it is a "bit" bad.
<Nilby>
I like line length 80 because my eyes aren't great and I want to be able look at multiple pages side by side on a laptop. ... or underwater. in the dark. through a straw. :)
<beach>
And I would have to explain why I prefer what I wrote, to the guide in the link that you posted. And, like I said, I am really, really tired of that.
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<ebrasca>
You don't need to read that guide , why 80?
<ebrasca>
Today the screens are biger. ( 1920x1080 is normal one I think )
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<flip214>
ebrasca: read what Nilby wrote.
<minion>
flip214, memo from rpg: I don't have any experience with CL-WHO, so I don't know what ITERATE would do with it, but there are relatively easy-to-use extension capabilities in ITERATE.
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<Nilby>
I even sometimes read code on *gasp* a website or a phone
<ebrasca>
flip214: I have read it!
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<ex_nihilo>
ebrasca: I usually have two panes open side-by-side in emacs when I am coding; 80 cols works great for that on my laptop, but much wider and I start to have line-wrapping problems
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<ebrasca>
I did not think about smaller screens , in screen I can fit 160 with two panes side by side so thinked 140 is ok.
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<Nilby>
at 1920 two 160 pange has only leaves 6 pixel chars
<flip214>
ebrasca: lisp code is much denser than other programming languages, so line breaks (and indentation) is a valuable tool to show relations between forms; I think having too much stuff in one line is harmful.
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<flip214>
Nilby: sometimes I change an xterm to a 1-pixel font - so that I can do graphics via writing spaces and X's ;)
<ebrasca>
What do you do if "(defun name (args)" is to long?
<Nilby>
flip214: me too! in color even
<flip214>
ebrasca: I break the args list into multiple lines
<flip214>
Nilby: because libaa is so... 1980ies, right?? ;)
<Nilby>
Also 1 or 2 pixel fonts are good for editor minimaps, which also add to the width on-screen.
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<splittist>
Ahh! That's how they do it.
<pjb>
flip214: or, you can use unicode: ▖▗▘▙▚▛▜▝▞▟
<Nilby>
thats what my text mode image viewer does :) it's not to bad with 24bit color
<ebrasca>
Nilby: How did you know I have 6 pixel chars?
<Nilby>
ebrasca: I'm bad at math, but my REPL isn't
<jdz>
ebrasca: (/ 1920 (* 2 160))
<ex_nihilo>
ebrasca: if a lambda list is too long, you could put arguments on multiple lines, but that could also be a sign that your function is trying to do too much; maybe two functions would be better
<flip214>
ex_nihilo: that quickly degenerates into a function that prepares some object with lots of args, and then a function that consumes such an object and only a few args... which is not better, IMO
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<ex_nihilo>
flip214: I don't mean that you should solve the problem of long lists of arguments by adding function definitions; I meant that when you have long lists of arguments you should _consider_ whether you have the best design
<ebrasca>
Function names can get long.
<flip214>
well, DRAKMA comes to my mind - and a HTTP request may need lots of refinement.
<phoe>
when they get too long and there is too many of them I tend to cut them in half and create a new package
<jdz>
phoe: Divide and conquer!
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<ebrasca>
There is people using "(when (not ..." , "(unless (not ..." and "(not (not ..."
<ebrasca>
Why?
<moon-child>
ebrasca: people people use all of those in english
<moon-child>
(that said I think not not is probably never justified in lisp)
<phoe>
moon-child: in Lisp, notnot means that we want something of type BOOLEAN, not a generalized boolean
<phoe>
which means, either T or NIL
<beach>
So without arguing a particular width, I think the purpose is to minimize the amount of white space (without changing the preferred names) so that the maximum amount of information can be presented to the programmer. Now, we can just go count the fraction of white space to non-white space for different widths.
<beach>
phoe: That would be weird. (not (null ...)) sure, but not (not (not ...)) because in the last case, ... should already be Boolean.
<phoe>
oh right, sorry
<phoe>
same effect, but different meaning
<beach>
But I see no reason for (when (not ...) ...) or (unless (not ...) ...).
<jdz>
I (as a non-native English speaker) can only comprehend UNLESS with simple test-forms.
<beach>
I can see (when (null ...) ...) and (unless (null ...) ...)
<beach>
Yes, UNLESS seems to be hard for some non-native speakers of English.
<jdz>
If there is an AND or OR involved, I'm in trouble.
<flip214>
beach: In german it's uncommon to say "außer ...."; I notice that I don't use UNLESS. I feel much more comfortable with (IF (NOT ...)) which corresponds to the German "Wenn nicht 'alles gut ist', 'sage Fehler'" example.
<jdz>
And have to resort to converting UNLESS into WHEN and do the boolean transformations of the test-form.
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<flip214>
I sometimes try both (NOT (AND ...)) and (OR (NOT ) (NOT )) to see which is more readable
<phoe>
I generally avoid UNLESS AND and UNLESS OR and convert it to WHEN OR and WHEN AND whenever possible
<engblom>
I saw https://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/ mentioned. There is actually one thing I wish it had: better instructions for how to achieve the 100 character limit per line. Like recommendations on how to split longer forms, how to handle longer docstrings, max number of forms/line etc.
<flip214>
beach: I guess that's Sapier-Whorf, then ;)
<beach>
flip214: I understand. I use (IF (NOT ...) as well, but not as a replacement for UNLESS. I use it when there is both a `then' and an `else' form, and I have reasons to care about the order of the two.
<flip214>
phoe: that's what beach said and I wrote just after him, too
<phoe>
flip214: yes - I can see the sentiment
<ex_nihilo>
beach: if you wanted a bool instead of a list from MEMBER, wouldn't you use (NOT (NOT (MEMBER ...)))?
<phoe>
ex_nihilo: preferably NOT NULL MEMBER
<jdz>
ex_nihilo: You'd use IF?
<flip214>
ex_nihilo: what would you do differently with that bool?
<beach>
ex_nihilo: Yes, I think what phoe said. But there are problematic cases, as usual.
<beach>
ex_nihilo: I tend to pretend that MEMBER returns a Boolean, and I would use FIND if I want some object.
<beach>
But again, there are problematic cases.
<jdz>
I think I'd use either (if (member ...) t nil), or (not (null (member ...))) instead of double NOT.
<jdz>
If I really had to have a boolean.
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<beach>
engblom: Like I said, the idea would be to minimize the fraction of white space to non-white space. You introduce newlines as required. If the newlines leave too much space to the right, you have too many. If have too much indentation, you have too few.
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<ebrasca>
beach: Do you plan to add some style cheker in climacs?
<ebrasca>
beach: Do you plan to add all your rules?
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<pjb>
beach: if you want to convert a generalized boolean to a boolean, (not (not gb)) is indicated. It is hard to justify (not (null gb)) in that case, because gb is a boolean, so a boolean operator such as NOT is indicated.
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<pjb>
writing (not (null gb)) would be punning.
<pjb>
(which is usual in lisp so nobody would complain, but (not (not gb)) is more correct).
<ebrasca>
What about (atom (member ...)) ?
<pjb>
atom returns a generalized boolean.
<ebrasca>
So (atom ...) in better than (not (not ...))
<beach>
ebrasca: I haven't thought about it much. It is certainly higher priority to work on the code itself.
<pjb>
ebrasca: no, it's worse.
<ebrasca>
pjb: Why?
<pjb>
ebrasca: we're discussing generalized boolean to boolean conversion.
<ebrasca>
atom gives T if it is not nil.
<pjb>
nope.
<beach>
I think "generalized Boolean" is a semantic term, and not a "moral" one.
<ebrasca>
we need the oposite of null
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<pjb>
ATOM may very well return (you dummy bastard) when x is not a cons cell. (atom 't) #| --> :failed |# (atom "hello") #| --> generalized |# (atom 'nil) #| --> boolean |# (atom '(a . d)) #| --> nil |#
<pjb>
We definitely will need to do something like that in bocl :-)
<beach>
That's a cute idea. Make an implementation that does everything that is allowed by the standard in the most non-obvious way.
<beach>
... so as to catch as much non-conforming code as possible.
<beach>
Er, I mean "That's a cute idea. Make an implementation that does everything that is allowed by the standard, but in the most non-obvious way"
<beach>
... possibly short of erasing the home directory when a construct is undefined.
<pjb>
To be a conforming implementation any undefined behavior must be defined and documented.
<beach>
Oh, sure. But that can be done.
<beach>
It can be documented, even if it is "outrageous".
<pjb>
At least, the implementation could print funny messages.
<beach>
"If AREF is passed an object that is not an array, then a short snippet of "Jingle bells" is played to the speaker".
<lukego>
I ownder why I'm getting The function CL-SMT-LIB/CL-SMT-LIB::OUTPUT is undefined.
<phoe>
wrong package
<phoe>
it's from package :cl-smt-lib/fundamental-two-way-stream
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<lukego>
ah indeed. looks like a bug in CL-SMT-LIB that they have multiple packages and aren't sharing symbols between them as they should. thanks for helping!
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<phoe>
maybe it's a feature that it doesn't have a god package that reexports everything from everything else
<phoe>
one could argue that it's proper modularity
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<lukego>
well, sure, but the WITH-SMT macro generates code that errors because it puts the OUTPUT symbol from the wrong package in function-position
<phoe>
!
<phoe>
now that is a bug indeed
<lukego>
but I'll fix that and send a PR (assuming it's broken in the latest code from github, checking now)
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<lukego>
yeah same deal there, fixing..
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<lukego>
oh hm I think this code was never debugged, also errors with EOF-ERROR-P on READ not being threaded through where it needs to go
<pfdietz>
I'll chastise Eric. :)
<splittist>
close enough for government (DARPA) work (:
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<lukego>
and this is a bit too tangled for me. there's a recursive call to READ-CHAR first to a gray stream and then to a native stream, and EOF-ERROR-P is not threaded between them, such that the inner call errors on EOF while the outer call is expecting it to return :eof. Maybe needs a condition handler there instead?
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<lukego>
splittist :D
<pfdietz>
A problem I've found with those smt interfaces is making sense of the model it sends back. The format is often idiosyncratic.
<lukego>
but the code I'm complaining about is in SBCL and not cl-smt-lib
<lukego>
what is that imgur site that the cool people here are using?
<lukego>
what with me being all millennial-wannabe and using PNG instead of TXT for error message reporting
<lukego>
anyway I'm lost as to where the bug is - SBCL, CL-SMT-LIB, or gray streams? - but if you'd run something like (cl-smt-lib:with-smt (smt ("z3"))) then you'd get an error like https://ibb.co/wz9TQ2S where EOF-ERROR-P is being lost on the stack
* lukego
does a little more digging
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<lukego>
okay, I think I'm onto it...
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<contrapunctus>
I've been cultivating a Lisp room on Jabber/XMPP for a while, if anyone wants to join. xmpp:lisp@conference.a3.pm?join (it's not CL-specific like this room, though...much too small a community for that at the moment.)
<Demosthenex>
contrapunctus: while i do like xmpp over other chat solutions, i prefer irc ;]
<Demosthenex>
given freenode was bridging with matrix already, i wouldn't mind seeing people bridge xmpp
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<beach>
I feared that we were going to be split between matrix and libera.chat, but now it looks like we might get split in 3 instead.
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<lukego>
quick someone start a discord channel
<phoe>
doh
* lukego
ducks
<phoe>
it's been there for years
<Demosthenex>
beach: well, if libera is where freenode migrates too... that's fine
<beach>
Demosthenex: Except that it doesn't seem to have a matrix bridge, so it is not fine with people that are currently using such a bridge for freenode.
<phoe>
I assume that a matrix bridge for libera will happen soon enough
<beach>
Oh, OK.
<beach>
Then that would seem like my preferred solution, given my experience with the staff here in the past.
<lukego>
okay, there is a lot to fix in WITH-SMT, and since it's not actually documented to exist I'll just pretend that it doesn't
<beach>
But, I know nothing about matrix or discord.
<phoe>
I mean, that's the only logical assumption I can make
<phoe>
eventually it'll even itself out
<Demosthenex>
beach: otoh, the matrix bridge has been compared to when AOL added the internet ;] a new eternal september
<lukego>
(it's also not detecting crashes in the solver, e.g. when you specify one that's not installed, nor reading results properly)
<Demosthenex>
beach: you only need to know that matrix was written by webdevs, and that discord is facebook for gamers.
<Bike>
discord is more like irc than facebook
<beach>
Demosthenex: I am afraid I can't parse any of those sentences. Probably due to ignorance of the subject on my part.
<Demosthenex>
beach: matrix made by developers who think comic sans and javascript are good ideas, and that every user needs a 500MB gui client where the theme is locked. discord is just please record everything i say for purposes of making money.
<xristos>
discord is proprietary spyware, also ruthlessly antithetical to any sort of custom client development
<Demosthenex>
xristos: like the process scanner which constantly reports what you are running to their server. nominally so it can update your icon for the game you're playing.
<beach>
I am starting to get the picture.
<xristos>
matrix is unusable for me, full of anti-patterns and none of IRC's simplicity and elegance (gasp!)
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<Demosthenex>
beach: matrix is made by devs who put crayons up their nose. ;]
<MichaelRaskin>
Matrix is perfectly usably with, say, weechat plugins, though
<beach>
I think no-defun-allowed will have some interesting remarks here. I'll ask in #sicl.
<Demosthenex>
beach: and discord sold the crayons
<xristos>
MichaelRaskin: IRC is perfectly usable with netcat alone
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<MichaelRaskin>
Server-side history storage has its cost, apparently
<beach>
A necessary (but not sufficient) condition for me to join is that I can have my flyspell mode and my abbrevs.
<MichaelRaskin>
(in fact, proper server redundancy has its cost)
<katco>
full disclosure, i'm a matrix fan, but matrix is working on a binary protocol, and there are many clients, some of which are not bloated at all.
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<contrapunctus>
If anyone wants a better XMPP in their Emacs, do see if you'd like to contribute to this fork of jabber.el
<phoe>
;; janitor announcement: I think that, given the current network-related disturbances, it would be sensible to relax the off-topic rule a little bit to involve IRC-and-alternatives and Freenode-and-alternatives-related discussion, at least until things calm down and clarify a little bit
<phoe>
s/involve/include/
<contrapunctus>
It merges some existing PRs and I migrated it to a literate Org program.
<Jachy>
There was even a clim client for matrix at one point, though it hadn't gotten very far last I tried it and I don't know what happened to it.
* lukego
hopes he will be able to just point his web browser at whatever the new venue does, which he does now via irccloud.com web client
<Demosthenex>
katco: my issue with matrix is reinventing the wheel, versus an evolving standard like xmpp with multiple non-web oriented clients and servers.
* splittist
is with lukego
<katco>
Demosthenex: i can't comment on the similarities between the xmpp and matrix protocol, though i used to use jabber a lot. but for me at least the argument doesn't sway me; both protocols are here now and should be evaluated on their merits. as an aside (and as a longtime freenode user before matrix), it's sad what's happening. but time goes on i suppose...
* splittist
also fears an escalating civil war of manifestos, codes of conduct, purity tests and purges, leading to a barren wasteland of chat...
<katco>
mozilla just switched to matrix, fosdem ran their last conference with matrix, gitter is now the matrix protocol, multiple governments are using matrix for interdepartmental communication. i think there's some momentum behind the protocol. that's my two cents, and i'll be quiet about it now :)
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<Josh_2>
I have quite an extensive bot written for Matrix, all in CL ofcourse
<Josh_2>
because until spaces launches properly its uh pretty rubbish
<katco>
Josh_2: the beta is out now. i've been using it a few days and it seems nice.
<Josh_2>
My community hasn't completely swapped to matrix, but its nice for me as my bot implemented invite only communities, along with a whole host of other features
<Josh_2>
means I dont have to maintain all that nonsense and can just focus on making cool features
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<Josh_2>
IRC is better though
<Demosthenex>
katco: there's momentum behind AOL IM, MSN, and Skype too... my point is federated open protocols with varied clients and servers are more durable, ie: email
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<Demosthenex>
katco: yet IM networks have an average 3-5 year life span before replacement
<Demosthenex>
Josh_2: i have a xmpp bridge written in CL for our Factorio server ;]
<katco>
Demosthenex: sorry, i think that's a false equivalency. matrix is an open, federated, protocol with varied clients?
<katco>
aol, msn, and skype were/are all closed protocols owned by a single company
<Demosthenex>
katco: i mean new kid on the block syndrome and reinvent the wheel. i haven't seen anything matrix added that xmpp doesn't already have
<MichaelRaskin>
(which is where all the complexity came from…)
<Demosthenex>
MichaelRaskin: multiserver synced chat? yeah, given it's federated each chatroom is server local. what's your use case
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<Demosthenex>
it's an interesting edge case ;]
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<Bike>
what are the lisp channels on these other services
<MichaelRaskin>
Demosthenex: use case is that in Matrix, matrix.org going down for a week does not take out #matrix:matrix.org
<MichaelRaskin>
(for users from other servers)
<Demosthenex>
MichaelRaskin: i'm afraid i don't find that compelling ;] if a federated server hosts a room, and it's down... then the room's down.
<MichaelRaskin>
No. It is not down
<phoe>
Bike: I know of #common-lisp:matrix.org on Matrix
<Gnuxie[m]>
Demosthenex: you don't understand how Matrix works, rooms aren't local to any server, room 'aliases' might be but they're irrelevant to the operation of the room
<Shinmera>
fwiw libera is currently being overrun with spammers, so
<Bike>
is the +n not working there or what
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<MichaelRaskin>
Pro-Freenode spammers, no less
<Shinmera>
Bike: just tons of accounts joining to spam one message.
<MichaelRaskin>
Demosthenex: you say they are reinventing the wheel because you do not understand the difference
* Shinmera
goes back to lichat
<beach>
So that's 5 rather than 2. Oh well.
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<Demosthenex>
MichaelRaskin: that may be perfectly true. i got off the IM network churn long ago, every new network i am skeptical of and see little reason to change. there were hundreds before them, and i think email, irc, and xmpp are solid for my use
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<Shinmera>
beach: Can't waste this opportunity to advertise my own protocol :^)
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
But it is looking more and more likely that I will be present in at most 1 out of 4 of 5 "chat rooms" dedicated to Lisp.
<Demosthenex>
beach: well, you're appreciated anywhere you are, you've given me good advice before =]
<beach>
Thanks.
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<jackdaniel>
Demosthenex: the issue is that fragmenting a (former) freenode community would be a waste
<beach>
I can't agree more.
<xristos>
the dust will settle in a day or three, as long as its IRC and contains the majority of existing lisp channels, i'll be happy
<jackdaniel>
I will look around how things develop until next week and then I will decide; I personally consider only the "new" irc server vs matrix
<Demosthenex>
jackdaniel: i'm not advocating either way, we were talking xmpp vs matrix ;]
* jackdaniel
will move only two channels (#clim and #ecl), so probably not that much of an impact here
<Cymew>
I noticed now that my auto join was broken. I have missed what ever conversation has taken place here, but am now on libra.chat as well if anyone wants to migrate there.
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<Demosthenex>
as to the freenode issues, i'm being patient and will wait and see
<Shinmera>
Is there an equivalent on libera already? It could be a nice opportunity to avoid the #lisp vs #commonlisp debacle.
<Bike>
it's #commonlisp, because #lisp is being spammed to hell
<Demosthenex>
many channel operators are reserving their channels now there
<Shinmera>
ok, cool.
<Demosthenex>
and set +r to stop unregistered spam
<Demosthenex>
i've been helping #org-mode and ##aix
<Bike>
somebody joined #lisp and got op, and then left, so there's no op. good stuff
<Shinmera>
of course.
<Demosthenex>
but both channels i've said the same, wait and see. patience.
<Shinmera>
classic IRC fun :)
<Demosthenex>
have a backup plan
<Bike>
takes me back. i should slap the spammers about with a large trout
<Shinmera>
IRC is such a horrible protocol I really wish it weren't so successful
<Cymew>
Looks like +r worked fine for #rhel
<aeth>
Unfortunately, every alternative to IRC has to be "monetized" which usually means controlling the client so that ads and tracking can be inserted at some unspecified future point.
<aeth>
And "modern" which means web-and-smartphone-first
<Shinmera>
not really, but whatever you want to believe is fine.
<Cymew>
"Modern" does seem to imply web and smartphones first, indeed
<Shinmera>
even if it did take more of a chunk out of my lisp coding than I would've liked
<aeth>
"Modern" also means "minimalist", i.e. way too much padding and not many configuration options at all. Maybe none other than localization. You better hope that your language's datetime preferences are the datetime preferences you prefer!
<Cymew>
Sweet.
<Demosthenex>
Cymew: modern seems to imply blinding white background, huge amounts of wasted space, and variable fonts in clients requiring hundreds of megs of ram :P
<Shinmera>
Wish ELS had happened later so I could've showed it off then ;)
<aeth>
Demosthenex: or a "dark" theme that's white on a moderate blue, rather than white on black.
<Cymew>
Demosthenex: Yeah, that happens as well.
<Demosthenex>
"modern" also tends to mean completely uncustomizable. you can't change your hotkeys, our theme is set thru a/b testing, and it's all locked beyond your control
<Demosthenex>
looking at YOU firefox :P
<Demosthenex>
who uses windoze style copy/paste/search anyway
<aeth>
yeah, "dark theme" is a thing because nowadays most software has two theming options: dark and light. Old software like Emacs lets you change the whole thing.
<Demosthenex>
aeth: or run a terminal and control it all
<Josh_2>
Shinmera: nice
<Shinmera>
Thanks! :)
<katco>
yeah i really hate the trend away from open protocols and user agents (i.e. clients). everyone celebrating dark themes because they were handed down from on high. if you have protocols/clients, you have whatever you want. no one has to give you anything.
<Demosthenex>
Shinmera: omg! were you part of that! i saw that recently come up on some lisp news feed. i was impressed!
<lukego>
Shinmera: nice !
<Shinmera>
I am the lead dev, yes.
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<Shinmera>
I sometimes here people elsewhere are talking about it, but I wouldn't know where :)
<Shinmera>
*hear
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<Josh_2>
I like Matrix, I like IRC simple az
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<Josh_2>
But most of all I like Common Lisp :P
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<ebrasca>
Are we moving to libera.chat or xmpp or what?
<Shinmera>
there's some stuff on libera now.
<Shinmera>
I won't be using xmpp or matrix or whatever, myself.
<Josh_2>
Well I have little say and little sway, so I'm basically going to defer to beach
<Bike>
What's the lichat lisp channel?
<Cymew>
I find irc with all its faults are better than its successors.
<Josh_2>
IRC is nice because of its simplicity and I can't post memes that get me in trouble
<aeth>
IRC focuses on text, which is good
<mfiano>
Josh_2: You seem to be doing much better sans the memes since I banned you
<Shinmera>
Bike: heh
<ebrasca>
I like to fix my errer when I mistipe.
<aeth>
There are two cultures: IRC channels and internet chat rooms. If you add in emoji reactions and images and videos and stuff, you get the latter, and you wind up getting an AOL chatroom replacement instead of an IRC replacement.
* Fade
just joined #lisp on libera.
<Josh_2>
yeh exactly mfiano
<Josh_2>
although my memes are fire, you lot are just uh weak
<ebrasca>
Maybe it is good idea for me to host my own server for the lisp comunity.
<contrapunctus>
Josh_2: r/lispmemes 😏
<ebrasca>
xmpp?
<jmercouris>
everyone is getting excited, just like GitHub, I doubt anything will change... give it a week, and then bring it up again
<Shinmera>
Bike: I don't think making a lisp separate channel on tynet/lichat would be worth it. I expect the shirakumo channel alone is gonna be dry enough :)
<Bike>
ah well
<phoe>
jmercouris: I'm mostly angry
<phoe>
not really excited
<Shinmera>
Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong about that
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<Josh_2>
contrapunctus: they dont like my lisp memes
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: github was a commercial entity from the start - freenode premise was different though
<mfiano>
It will likely appear to be the same, sans a lower user count, and the unknown of what a hostile business may do with your user data.
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<xristos>
mfiano: user data as in a password hash and an email
<xristos>
let's not pretend it's even remotely an issue ;p
<phoe>
and also chat logs
<phoe>
including DMs
<xristos>
which you know anyone can log so you (should) consider public
<xristos>
alternatively, can layer encryption on top of IRC
<Shinmera>
no you can't.
<xristos>
yes you can
<phoe>
as long as you invent your own layer atop irc, sure thing
<Shinmera>
not in any reasonable way
<xristos>
ever heard of ADMirc in the90s
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<ebrasca>
What is ADMirc?
<_death>
there was FiSH.. though it was susceptible to MITM
<xristos>
fish didn't do authenticated diffie-hellman key-exchange iirc
<ebrasca>
I think we need a desentralized irc like server.
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<Josh_2>
Fade: #lisp or #commonlisp ?
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<phoe>
Josh_2: we do not (yet) have op on the former
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<Josh_2>
aww rip
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<phoe>
but I'm in the process of getting it
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<jackdaniel>
then make the channel private with the message upon join: "join #commonlisp"
<jackdaniel>
we'll get rid of the channel name debates ,)
<Shinmera>
Would be better to have the latter anyway, just to finally stop the endless confusion "but #lisp is only for commonlisp???"
<jackdaniel>
^
<Josh_2>
Yes but we are asserting our dominance by having the #lisp name
<pjb>
:-)
<Josh_2>
"Yes we have #lisp because Common Lisp is the best lisp, what of it?"
<phoe>
actually
<_death>
we could take over #clojure as well
<phoe>
I already have #commonlisp
<jackdaniel>
do you feel so insecure about it that you need to assert anything?
<Josh_2>
_death: thats the spirit
<phoe>
_death: can't do that, already claimed :(
<phoe>
jackdaniel: like, if we'd like to utilize this chance to move to #commonlisp, then it's already ready and registered
<phoe>
(on Libera, that is)
<jackdaniel>
sure, I'm answering to what Josh_2 said
<phoe>
oooh
<phoe>
OK
<_death>
phoe: and that's why if I'm gonna move to another network, it'll be eris free.. although they have that annoying chanfix :x
<phoe>
eris free?
<_death>
efnet
<phoe>
yes, I see
<Josh_2>
jackdaniel: okay lets compromise, we will take #lisp and #commonlisp
<phoe>
I don't know if such a function already exists, one second...
<cage_>
galex-713: :)
<galex-713>
phoe: ok so no way using minimize?
<galex-713>
I tried before to reimplement “minimize” out of loop for the sake of abstraction but realized it’s more complex than that because the index is separated
<phoe>
I don't know how to do it using LOOP MINIMIZE
<galex-713>
maybe it’s impossible
<galex-713>
minimize stores only one value I guess, no way of remembering other value from the moment that value was smallest
<saturn2>
you can't do it because you need a place to store the minimum value and also a place to store the index
<galex-713>
also, what I’m trying to do is to take some sort of “median” of a list of numbers, so that the difference of the sum on either of its sides is the smallest… do that statistical function has a name?
<galex-713>
(what I’m trying to know is what’s the median size of a country, ponderated by its surface)
<_death>
(loop with min-i = -1 for i upfrom 0 for x in '(3 9 8 2 5) minimize x into min-x when (eql x min-x) do (setf min-i i) finally (return (values min-x min-i)))
<galex-713>
(I’m currently calling that a ponderated median but dunno if it’s the correct name)
<galex-713>
_death: OH MY GOD I LOVE YOU
<galex-713>
okay it’s slightly less beautiful than I thought but it’s exactly what I wanted
<_death>
I wouldn't use loop there in actual code.. map nil would work on any sequence type
<galex-713>
_death: but map couldn’t minimize :o how would you do that?
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<galex-713>
my alternative solution rewrote it inside a dotimes
<galex-713>
with imperative code inside it (but well minimize looks pretty imperative too)
<_death>
you'd do it yourself, (setf min-x (min min-x x))
<galex-713>
oh using min there is more beautiful
<galex-713>
or…
<galex-713>
wait no, because it’s not the only value I need to keep
<galex-713>
min contains a conditional that would be needed anyway to store the index of the minimum
<_death>
it doesn't matter that the code is imperative.. the function would be referentially transparent
<galex-713>
also, how to get an index using map?
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<_death>
you can maintain one yourself
<galex-713>
why do you talk about referential transparency?
<galex-713>
you mean like accessing an external variable from the mapped function?
<galex-713>
and modifying it?
<galex-713>
is that possible?
<galex-713>
is map necessarily in-order?
<_death>
because you want an operator (minimum seq) => value, index (or a more general one) and it doesn't matter much how it's implemented
<galex-713>
I mean, how would it be better than using dotimes or loop?
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<_death>
if you like inefficient code.. (reduce #'smaller (zip sequence (iota (length sequence)))) (defun smaller (a b) (if (< (car a) (car b)) a b)) (defun zip (a b) (map 'list #'list a b)) (defun iota (n) (loop for i below n collect i))
<galex-713>
nooooo
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<galex-713>
actually, I’d like code that would work out of order, so then I could apply it my dichotomy instead of linearily
<galex-713>
that is minimize starting from the center of a partition each time, and partitioning by the center at each level
<galex-713>
so it would be logarithmic
<_death>
it can't be logarithmic
<galex-713>
my list is sorted
<galex-713>
so it can
<_death>
?
<_death>
if it's sorted, the index is either 0 or (1- (length sequence))
<galex-713>
because the values decrease monotonically then increase monotonically
<galex-713>
[19:39:47] <galex-713> also, what I’m trying to do is to take some sort of “median” of a list of numbers, so that the difference of the sum on either of its sides is the smallest… do that statistical function has a name?
<galex-713>
the sums are not purely monotonical, but the numbers are, so the sums first decrease and then increase
<galex-713>
it’s like finding a local minimum
<_death>
the partition problem?
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<galex-713>
_death: ?
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<_death>
do you mean the difference between the element and its neighbors?
<galex-713>
no
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<galex-713>
I mean like take a list of number, find the number so that A is the sum of numbers before it, and B the sum of numbers after it, and the difference between A and B is minimal
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<galex-713>
I want to know what’s the size of your country on average if you end up on a random place on earth
<galex-713>
I’m not sure this match the average of countries size
<galex-713>
_death: oh yeah but there it’s a set, hence unordered
<galex-713>
my list is ordered
<_death>
it doesn't matter
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<galex-713>
_death: well if my list is 224-wide, there are only 224-possibilities
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<galex-713>
WAIT
<galex-713>
I called it “ponderated mean”
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<galex-713>
I could simply… ponderate it…
<galex-713>
mmmh
<galex-713>
_death: I want the country so that the total surface of earth of wider-than-you countries is as near as possible to the total surface of earth of smaller-than-you countries
<galex-713>
the time of finding it is linear at worse, but I’m pretty sure it could be logarithmic
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<jgkamat>
I assume when there's a concrete plan the topic will be updated right
<pfdietz>
Same password there? I am trying to remember what it was here...
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<_death>
channels exist as long as people inhabit them.. I think such migration would only work with "organized" communities and new channels..
<phoe>
pfdietz: password?
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<jackdaniel>
the password is, as we all know from the movie "hackers", the phrase "god"
<phoe>
jgkamat: what do you mean by a concrete plan?
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<jgkamat>
phoe: like, if/when the channel migrates
<jackdaniel>
as in: one mod declares jumping the ship to another server and changes topic; another mod reverts it back 2h later ,-)
<phoe>
I guess someone would need to make a decision then, and people would need to follow it
<phoe>
and we get exactly what jackdaniel said
<phoe>
right now I'm observing the situation, and preparing stuff on libera in case we move there
<jackdaniel>
well, I'm still going to change a topic for better or worse (the moment I know where #clim and #ecl move); but I'm sure that plenty of people will stay
<phoe>
but I don't think the time is right for proclaiming concrete plans right now
<jgkamat>
I was kind of assuming the mods would (at some point) all be on the same page at some point xD
<phoe>
the mods, sure
<_death>
of course a channel owner could set +i and kick everyone or something... personally I'm sticking freenode
<phoe>
but #lisp isn't all mods
<jackdaniel>
_death: that's what I'm doing with #clim and #ecl, yes ,)
<_death>
there are a zillion references to freenode #lisp.. I'm not sure it's useful to disband or have yet more channels just to satisfy irc drama du jour
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<Fare>
Is something happening on freenode?
<phoe>
Fare: a hostile takeover
<jgkamat>
at some point (unless things change) freenode will likely be overrun with spam and/or other bad things, because that's what the staffers jobs were
<Fare>
:-/
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<Fare>
Where is the Great Migration heading to? Matrix?
<thmprover>
Will the #lisp community move to a different IRC server? Or is this "not as bad as it sounds", so to speak?
<ChoHag>
tl;dr: Chill Winston. Wait for tomaw to wake up, check his inbox, and have his 6th or 7th coffee.
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<Bike>
we have alt channels set up on libera.chat and matrix
<ChoHag>
It would be insane to make any decisions at this stage just, as has apparently been done, prepare.
<Bike>
this channel is not really a coherent organization, so there aren't going to be official definitive statements about moving or not
<ChoHag>
The service isn't going anywhere any time soon you can be sure of that. ragnarok's not going to topple working servers he can't right when he's trying to prove his worth in a hostile environment.
<ChoHag>
Well he might he seems a bit of a moron but that wouldn't be wise.
<MrtnDk[m]>
_death Can't we use something like "Beatle juice" or what it's called, and simply implement an interface to the matrix for now? I realise it's going to be a major inconvenience, and everyone will have to get matrix accounts, but at least we have a place until the situation has been fixed permanently. I wish Lilo was alive, he might have been able to fix this.
<ChoHag>
OTOH it's getting late in Russia and the vodka's flowing and maybe with all the staff gone it's time for a ddos?
* Lycurgus
is just catching up but doesn't see how this is different from the general situation with the global name service
<thmprover>
Right, right; I'm just mildly surprised by the news. It will all pan out in the end, I'm certain.
<ChoHag>
Lycurgus: It was literally the DNS that done it.
<ChoHag>
Somehow the domains got into the wrong hands and *poof*.
<jackdaniel>
it is not about dns; freenode ltd was sold under unclear circumstances and the current owner claims ownership of services and servers too
<Lycurgus>
so here's the URL I posted in the wiki channel before I knew there was a freenode issue eg.meansofproduction.biz/index.php/Alt_root
<jackdaniel>
that is most likely unlawful, but nobody has time and health to fight the lawsuits coming from a commercial entity (that's usa law for you)
<Lycurgus>
still not clear what the freenode issue is, other than possibly ownership
<Bike>
based on all the resignation notices, it sounds like the staff was not clear on their own legal organization to begin with. they all come off as kind of confused or blindsided by this, and they'd know better than any of us schlubs, so everything comes off seeming vague
<ChoHag>
My client says lag 60 so I may be about to eat my words...
<Lycurgus>
i mentioned bitlbee in #wikipedia-en and the response was "Matrix is a Matrix is a standard for bridging nowadays tbh"
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<Lycurgus>
s/Matrix is a//
<ChoHag>
jackdaniel: Freenode Ltd. is a UK company.
<Lycurgus>
was freenode originally owned by the tor people?
<jackdaniel>
ChoHag: is that so? then scratch my last remark, my bad.
<MrtnDk[m]>
What is Freenode Ltd owner of?
<ChoHag>
I think so even though the future crown prince of Korea lives in America.
<ChoHag>
It's all shady as hell.
<ChoHag>
MrtnDk[m]: Apparently nothing except it happens to control the domain (ie. relationship with the registrar).
<lonjil>
MrtnDk[m]: it is the owner of being able to make legal threats against people. Legal threats that may or may not have weight, but may be quite difficult for individual staffers to deal with.
<MrtnDk[m]>
(or what it's called).
<MrtnDk[m]>
This is now getting more crazy than a TV-show like "the bold and the boastful"
<Inline>
erm
<Bike>
If you read the resignation notices, the staff seem to have been confused about what Freenode Ltd was in fact the owner of
<Bike>
and if they don't know, i definitely don't
<ChoHag>
Bike: Which is shocking as hell.
<Inline>
what has a company todo with a network ?
<ChoHag>
How the hell do you not know who your employer is?
<ChoHag>
And apparently the freenode staff thought their agreement (aka. contract) was one thing while the holding claims it was another.
<ChoHag>
So if they lawyer up right this one could be good.
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<saturn2>
the whole thing made no sense, but the guy has enough money to keep the frivolous lawsuits going forever
<Inline>
lol
<Inline>
oh man
<ChoHag>
Judges are in a bad fucking mood right now.
<ChoHag>
They absolutely do not want frivolous suits clogging up their overtaxed courts.
<epony>
very concerned about the future of lisp..
<Lycurgus>
why?
<Bike>
Why do they not want to bother with frivolous caseS?
<Inline>
lisp ltd.
<Inline>
lol
<ChoHag>
Because the virus overreaction has strained a system that was already at breaking point.
<Lycurgus>
and what do you mean by "the future of lisp?"
<ChoHag>
Hearings are being delayed by *years* in some cases.
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* Lycurgus
will be surprised if that's not parked
<lonjil>
ChoHag: They already have a lawyer. Who advised them that Freenode Ltd would probably lose in the end, but legal challanges could drag on for years and be very very expensive for the volunteers.
<Lycurgus>
yeah, .org goes to an image of mccarthy
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<MrtnDk[m]>
jackdaniel If this letter is correct, Christel basically screwed over Freenode, possibly for personal gain. I think we're only seeing the top of the iceberg. Does anyone know if Christel have (had) any personal or financial problems, that could affect her judgement?
<Lycurgus>
didn .net used to be a thing?
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<ChoHag>
I'm reserving my judgement on christel.
<ChoHag>
It would be unfair to speculate.
<epony>
a synthetic language the age of your grandparents graduation.. and some chat hosting facility on the end of its teens spawned from other such when that said language was 40 years old and standardised with dialects
<MrtnDk[m]>
ChoHag: Me too. She might have been screwed over herself.
<IIsi50MHz>
Holy crap, I'm caught up with all channels, including forks! :shades:
<IIsi50MHz>
Nope. #lisp exists, but ops are not configured, because someone else opened the channel first
<IIsi50MHz>
So, #commonlisp was made, with ops.
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<saturn2>
you can probably get #lisp back if you go to #libera and ask
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<IIsi50MHz>
They've been asked. Pending response. Please stand by. Film at 11.
<luis>
:)
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* jcowan
puts in a word for McCarthy's Request: nothing should be called simply "Lisp".
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<p_l>
IIsi50MHz: some #lisp@freenode people are handling the #lisp on libera, it's just taking time
<IIsi50MHz>
Basic'ly what I tried to convey. (-_-);
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<waleee-cl>
jcowan: he apparently goes by rasengan
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<jcowan>
Yes, I recognize it when I see it, but I can't be bothered to remember it. Ragnarok is easier to remember (as it means something appropriate) and still reminiscent of his usual nick
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<p_l>
IIsi50MHz: hah
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<rpg>
I don't mind leaving to Libera, but I lost my primo nick...
<White_Flame>
I just checked and at least I registered on a burner email address
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<nij>
Does anyone know how uiop:run-program's options `:output :interactive :input :interactive` work? I'm trying to figure out why they don't play well with the sly-slynk protocol.
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<dieggsy>
is there some standard (or almost standard?) thing like emacs lisp's alist-get?
<dieggsy>
i can always just assoc and work with that manually of course
<dieggsy>
but if i can save myself some typing by some method i don't know of... heh
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<_death>
there is alexandria:assoc-value
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