ChanServ changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<ebrasca> Good morning!
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* Xach builds quicklisp for the release!
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<Shinmera> \o/
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<Inline> morning
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<aun> sbcl.org is down, just saying
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<jackdaniel> I'm dropping from this network and deregistering the nick. I'll leave to other ops the decision whether a topic will indicate migration or not. see you \o
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<cage_> please change the topic :)
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<saturn2> the new freenode admins might take over your channel if you mention libera in the topic
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<saturn2> not saying you shouldn't do it, but just be aware of the possibility
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<johnjay> saturn2: well... isn't that rational to do though
<johnjay> you're basically saying you aren't using the channel anymore
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<saturn2> rational for the admins? maybe. but maybe that also makes it rational to hide things from them. it's not my decision to make
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<johnjay> true
<johnjay> i guess we will see what the glorious korean prince decides to do
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phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Moving to #commonlisp @ Libera | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
<phoe> let's see how this works
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<Lord_Nightmare> freenode just changed their policy document, removing the line about banning hate speech. I'm out. 30 days notice.
<phoe> Lord_Nightmare: link?
<phoe> is there a diff available somewhere?
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<Lord_Nightmare> ariadne's tweet, but someone pointed out that they actually DO still ban it, but in a more roundabout way
<Lord_Nightmare> the text starting with "In accordance with UK law freenode has no tolerance for any activity that could be construed as:" covers it still
<Lord_Nightmare> so my reading was premature
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<IIsi50MHz> Rational to take over a channel? Not when they have an established public policy that establishes limits on when channel registration drops.
<IIsi50MHz> I'd prefer that wait until their stated conditions occur, instead of acting like the "No, don't go!" stalkers in
<IIsi50MHz> one-sided relationships.
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<jcowan> Every site has a host country, and no host countries allow complete freedom of speech
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<epony> "some servers are more equal than others" --the hosting farm
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<johnjay> yeah idk. this whole libera thing could be for nothing
<johnjay> i think most channels are holding out to see what happens
<IIsi50MHz> I'm only only two that haven't moved yet. Others went OFTC or Libera.
<IIsi50MHz> Heard some went Matrix or Discord \_(-_-)_/
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<aeth> In the many channels I'm in, #steamdb shut down for discord, almost everything else I'm in either moved to Libera or is waiting to see
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<MrtnDk[m]> Na endlich!
<MrtnDk[m]> beach Don't worry about that, they say the same thing about Java™ ☺️😇
<MrtnDk[m]> Wrong smiley .. not sure how it happened .. "autocorrect" will have to take the blame. 😇
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<jdz> If posting this here hurts it means it's true: hxxps://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_abuse
<phoe> jdz: oh holy fuck
<Xach> the stars are brightly shiiiiining
<phoe> yes
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<MrtnDk[m]> jdz You misspelled. It's not hxxps, exchanging x's for t's will possibly fix it. Was this an intentional error?
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<Xach> Shinmera: thanks for the quick fix
<Shinmera> Sorry for the problem in the first place :)
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<phoe> MrtnDk[m]: yes, s/http/hxxp/ is intentional for when people want URLs not to get highlighted
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<IIsi50MHz> Semi-relatedly, (-: is intentional for avoiding graphical smilies.
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<IIsi50MHz> But I wants my links to Just WorkTM. (-:O
<MrtnDk[m]> What do you mean by highlighted, phoe ? Is it annoying a specific IRC client software in some way?
<MrtnDk[m]> IIsi50MHz Also, ( : is just a poor mans (-: I guess. (Extra space on purpose).
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<aun> Is there a way (library probably) to define local constant?
<IIsi50MHz> No, just had a close encounter with a battleaxe at a river before King's Landing. Still drinks and knows things!
<phoe> aun: like a local DEFCONSTANT? I think not
<aun> yeah, local defconstant
<aun> shame. Can it be implemented at all?
<phoe> the best you can do is define a lexical variable that is given a literal value and never mutate it; the compiler should be able to figure out the rest
<aun> I wanted it to error on attempts to mutate it
<Shinmera> symbol macro
<phoe> yes, I think you could implement it via a symbol macro
<phoe> where (foo) expands into some symbol and (setf foo) signals an error at macroexpansion time
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<aun> well that's _something_ but if its a (supposedly constant) array named x and something like (setf (aref x 1) 3.14) happens, I think it ll lead to ....undesirable results
<aun> am I right?
<phoe> yes, and DEFCONSTANT does not protect you against this either
<aun> ah, didn't know that
<phoe> mutating literal/constant data is undefined behavior in CL and I don't know of an implementation that implements actual protection against this
<aun> but is it possible to do so somehow  implementation agnostic, or it will require digging in the guts of compiler?
<phoe> AFAIK not unless you define your own AREF variant
<Xach> aun: is this to get better performance, to avoid mistakes, or something else?
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<phoe> if we name it CAREF then CAREF is going to work like AREF but SETF CAREF should signal an error at macroexpansion time possibly
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<aun> Xach I think its to avoid mistakes. I was asked by several people about const qualifier in CL and I decided to find out
<phoe> there's no real equivalent of a const qualifier in CL
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<aun> I can see the values in having it but I dont think its awful to not have it. I m mostly interested about it being possible to add, you know the mantra "extensible language" etc
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<jcowan> CL is an extensible language, but not necessarily a restrictible one.
<Xach> aun: that mantra is a little deceptive, i think. you quickly get a sense of what is easily extensible and what isn't, and there are plenty of reasonable things to extend that are not easily extensible.
<jcowan> You can provide access to restricted functions, but you can't suppress access to existing ones, nor can you force your compiler to take advantage of any additional information provided by your restriction.
<Xach> that's a key point - e.g. being meticulous about being immutable and even providing syntax and checks for immutable behavior does not mean the compiler will do anything better with the resulting code than if the compiler was built from the start to take advantage of it
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<i5um41ru> any recommendation to learn lisp fast?
<phoe> minion: tell i5um41ru about pcl
<minion> i5um41ru: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<phoe> minion: tell i5um41ru about portacle
<minion> i5um41ru: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/
<phoe> these two should be good enough
<i5um41ru> well, thanks a lot
<jcowan> The Scheme R6RS standard segregates the functions for mutating pairs and strings into two libraries separate from the base library, so in principle it is possible to determine if a given program uses them, and if so, to do something different at run time. But I don't think any implementation actually does so.
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