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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<MrtnDk[m]> Goodmorning beach
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<ldbeth> hello
<MrtnDk[m]> ldbeth Goodmorning
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<phoe> hey hi
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<beach> Hey phoe. Still on freenode?
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<phoe> yep, I am currently on both
<phoe> but #commonlisp on libera is growing so I might want to jump soonish
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<beach> OK.
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<luis> the new channel name is not great
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<beach> How so?
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<Xach> My client can't connect to the network.
<phoe> what is the error?
<Xach> Connection reset by peer.
<jdz> Xach: I had that problem today, and then I checked the "SSL" checkbox.
<ldbeth> 0525 18:11 -t-42- [Global Notice] Sorry for the noise! We are moving
<ldbeth> some servers around.
<ldbeth> could be related
<phoe> I can connect just fine via kiwiirc and via irssi
<phoe> hmmm
<ldbeth> or with ERC
<phoe> which hostname do you use?
<Xach> I have tried for a few days without success. I don't know if my irssi supports TLS.
<Xach> (it's linked with libssl so i bet it does)
<Xach> hmm
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<jdz> I might have checked the checkbox on libera network :/
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<luis> beach: #lisp is nicer than #commonlisp, I guess. (Shouldn't it be #common-lisp in any case?)
<phoe> luis: libera chat has naming rules where #\- denotes children channels
<luis> ACK.
<luis> phoe: no chance of grabbing #lisp for common lisp?
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<phoe> luis: I have mailed libera.chat staff for ops on that channel but I got no response
<phoe> and that's been, like, a few days ago
<selwyn> i imagine they are very busy
<phoe> they are
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<MrtnDk[m]> phoe What are "children channels" ?
<phoe> MrtnDk[m]: see libera naming policy, they have it on their website
<aeth> usually you see it as -dev
<aeth> or maybe -offtopic
<aeth> It's the same on Freenode
<aeth> It's just that Lisp's off-topic is #lispcafe (a separate thing) and there is no #lisp-dev because Lisp fragmented into a million pieces decades ago
<aeth> an example of an off-topic channel is #fedora-social (for #fedora the Linux distro)
<jdz> That naming scheme works better for projects, not for programming languages.
<aeth> yeah, more for distros or apps/games
<aeth> perhaps single-implementation languages, too, but who uses those
<jdz> Or any other FOSS projects.
<jdz> Works really bad for meta-languages, like "lisp."
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<aeth> Also doesn't work out well for two (or more) word names, since you want there to be a hyphen (at least if you're a Lisper) but you can't. Although it's not too unlike web domains, where hyphens are unexpected and unusual.
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<jdz> Some software has solved this problem by converting single dashes to double as an escape mechanism. I personally would not like if #common--lisp either.
<jdz> s/if/l.
<jdz> Buh, whatever.
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<aeth> The solution imo would be to return to usenet's conventions, at least partially, since comp.lang. is unnecessary
<aeth> i.e. . in channel names
<aeth> idk if IRC can be extended to support that, though. I doubt it's supported in the original
<aeth> Then you could have common-lisp, common-lisp.sbcl, etc.
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<phoe> I personally like #commonlisp because we'll get to avoid all the clojure/scheme/racket/elisp questions
<aeth> have we got Clojure questions in the past 5 years, since peak Clojure happened?
<aeth> It used to happen all of the time when I first joined, circa 2012
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<phoe> I remember a lot of elisp and scheme ones, I saw maybe two or three clojure ones during the last years
<aeth> elisp, that's still a common point of confusion
<aeth> Especially since even with the strictest "Lisp" definition, you still include both CL and Emacs Lisp
<aeth> (i.e. is it roughly compatible with maclisp/interlisp)
<jdz> I think leaving #lisp for general lisp meta discussions is a good thing, not having a pretty name for #commonlisp being the sacrifice.
<phoe> what do you mean, not pretty
<jdz> In my opinion using dot instead of dash as a namespace separator would make more sense, but I have not even seen that train leaving.
<jdz> As aeth suggested.
<jdz> phoe: There is no pause between words when reading "commonlisp", so it rubs me the wrong way all the time. Still not used to it.
<aeth> The issue is (1) if the server support it, which they can patch; but, more importantly, (2) if all IRC clients support it, which they can't patch.
<aeth> (My most recent use of punctuation is the most programmer usage of punctuation ever)
<jdz> aeth: Is a period not a valid character in channel names in IRC protocol? I have no idea.
<aeth> it does exist
<aeth> I just joined #asdf.jkl
<aeth> So, no, it's just a bad policy, then
<aeth> Usenet-style dots would make way more sense
<phoe> go suggest this to liberans then
<phoe> don't think they'll listen, but the idea is nice
<aeth> Probably too late, since it's just a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V (or hopefully just M-w C-y) of Freenode rules/policies
<aeth> would work on a new chat network (IRC or not), though
<aeth> lispchat anyone?
<jdz> The other is that previously existing communities are used to something already.
<phoe> aeth: lichat already exists
<aeth> jdz: right, and the hyphen does seem natural when it's just single words, e.g. #fedora-social again
<aeth> It only seems unnatural when something that could be hyphenated can't be
<aeth> I guess you could call it #lisp-common though :-p
<aeth> if only English had French word order (although to be fair, French is fairly random about which side of the word the adjective goes on)
<tfb> aeth: yes, I was going to say: lisp.common, lisp.maclisp, lisp.elisp. Uck
<jdz> I bet computer people are already very used to hierarchical naming schemes with dots as separators (SNMP, domain names, Java packages, usenet groups, etc.).
<aeth> I mean, I often search things in reverse order than what's natural, e.g. "weather $location"
<aeth> It's a very programmer thing to do
<aeth> Because I'm narrowing down a search, rather than writing natural language.
<jdz> So #fedora-social people should not be too opposed to #fedora.social. But that's a change, and habits die hard.
<aeth> right
<aeth> plus, any change over Freenode makes it slightly less likely to switch
<aeth> one thing about dots in names is that it might affect logging, especially on Windows
<aeth> Random extra .s in files is a very Unix thing.
<jdz> Yes, and recently I've run into a problem with working with files with multiple dots in CCL, so it's not just Windows.
<aeth> ouch
<jdz> Like, I'd expect PROBE-FILE on every result of DIRECTORY to work, but no, CCL disagrees.
<aeth> I guess it makes sense because Lisp does this weird transformation into an internal data structure
<jdz> I apologize, CCL had trouble with colons in file names, not dots.
<copec> Someone just needs to claim common as a project
<jdz> And PROBE-FILE on such files works as expected, but NAMESTRING adds escape backslashes.
<copec> There was a guy named Colin that I worked with, and he mucked up some code
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<MrtnDk[m]> What about #common ?
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<MrtnDk[m]> If that could be made a child of lisp, that would be kinda cool.
<MrtnDk[m]> !s/lisp/#lisp/
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<luis> So /that's/ what the package nickname "CL" means!
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<aeth> someone should make an Open Common Lisp (OpenCL) just to be extra confusing
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<Steeve> :D
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<dieggsy> does a nested defun make sense in the context of wanting to define a global function only upon calling some setup function
<dieggsy> or is there a better way to do that
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<Bike> honestly, i'm not sure doing that is actually a good idea, but if you really want to defun would do it, i guess.
<dieggsy> Bike: yeah it's probably not, the setup function switches packages anyway so that's kind of a mess
<Bike> Switches packages?
<dieggsy> yeah. it does a build and drops me into a package at the REPL
<tfb> dieggsy: I think I'd use (setf (fdefinition ...) ...) with a suitable proclaim because nested defun smells like a mistake
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<tfb> (even though it's kind of the same)
<Bike> i'm not sure what that means, but keep in mind that the setup function and any defun forms are going to be read at the same time, so binding *package* in the setup function won't change how any of it is read.
<dieggsy> Bike: yeah, tl:dr the nested defun absolutely doesn't do what I'd expect heh
<dieggsy> Bike: it just does the equivalent of an interactive in-package at the end of compiling and loading a bunch of code
<Bike> you don't want to use an actual build system like asdf?
<dieggsy> Bike: that's exactly what we're using
<dieggsy> but they have some abstraction over ASDF as well. regardless, i have some convenience function that isn't part of the official code that I'd like to load when a particular package is built, in the context of that package
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<Bike> packages aren't really "built". you could just load the defpackage form and then you should be able to read your code fine.
<dieggsy> Bike: the system is compiled, then puts me in a different package. what I'd like to do is not have to manually define my convenience function every time.
<dieggsy> er, manually load/compile it
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<dieggsy> like "when you compile this code and load it and put me in this package, also define this function in that context"
<Bike> can you just write a script that just has (load-system whatever) (in-package whatever) (defun ...)
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<dieggsy> Bike: that might be the best way to go, thanks. i was just hoping i could define this all in my init file without invoking extra loads or files
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<toop> im new to lisp from C
<pranavats> #commonlisp on Libera requires a registered nick. Is that a new policy? I wonder why, since it doesn't require a registered nick to join this channel.
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<ChoHag> Knobs! Let's twiddle them!
<toop> so, how do I declare an int using lisp but leave it unitialized
<ChoHag> Basically.
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<toop> and please dont just give me a big document tutorial because I cat learn that way very well
<toop> or a book
<aeth> pranavats: such flags tend to be added off and on based on spam waves
<pranavats> aeth: I see. Thanks.
<ChoHag> I don't know if lisp supports the concept of an unitialised variable.
<ChoHag> It generally defines its behaviour.
<toop> if not just set it to 0 then
<aeth> ChoHag: Yes, it does. But only globals with DEFVAR
<aeth> I guess slots can be uninitialized, too
<epony> garbage collector undefined state is a misnomer
<toop> if its uninitialized how can you later resize the buffer
<toop> :s
<ChoHag> Why is it being uninitialised useful?
<toop> it isnt most of the time
<epony> of course for stepping over other people's data and program segments
<Bike> if you bind a variable to a value but don't actually use the value, the implementation could optimize things to never actually use the value in favor of leaving whatever storage uninitialized until it's set to something that's actually used
<Bike> but there is no way to bind a variable without initializing it
<toop> that makes sense yes
<Bike> you can create some data structures, like arrays, without initializing their contents, though
<toop> compiler optimization
<epony> memory safety has costs ;-)
<toop> so can lisp do the equivelant of this: int x;
<Bike> "there is no way to bind a variable without initializing it", i said.
<toop> ok so you have to do this: int x = 5;
<Bike> analogously, yes.
<toop> how
<Bike> you would actually write (let ((x 5)) ...)
<toop> thx
<Bike> where ... is the code that can read/write the x varable.
<Bike> variable*
<toop> ok I see
<pranavats> toop: You can have an unbound global variable *x* with (defvar *x*), as aeth suggested.
<toop> ok cool
<Bike> that's unbound, not uninitialized, though
<toop> hmm (let x 5)
<toop> (write-line x)
<Bike> hey
<Bike> when i write something like "(let ((x 5)) ...)"
<Bike> and you write something completely different and are confused when it doesn't work
<Bike> what do i do with that?
<toop> well ive both heard that lisp is bracket heavy but doesnt have to be
<pranavats> Bike: Can you elaborate on the difference between unbound and uninitialized variable? I'm a little lost.
<Bike> pranavats: an unbound variable is in a definite state - unbound. reading its value is an error. an uninitialized variable is in an indefinite state. attempting to read its value is undefined behavior.
<toop> (let ((x 5)) write-line x) //fail
<Bike> why did you remove the parentheses
<pranavats> Bike: Thanks.
<Bike> you had a perfectly good function call, (write-line x), and you just decided to give up on that?
<toop> I didnt there
<toop> I give up on lisp
<toop> one error is too much
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<phoe> that's not the attitude
<phoe> one error is merely the beginning
<White_Flame> can't trust code that hasn't been debugged, and if it works the first time I always hold it in high suspicion
<edgar-rft> it's always an error to quit #lisp
<phadthai> or to request not to be recommended good reading :)
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<dieggsy> listen, i love to be accommodating to newbies, sometimes overly so, but if you're coming in with absolutely no knowledge and asking the most basic of questions while also saying "don't tell me to go read something" .......lol
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<dieggsy> "teach me a new programming language, and don't tell me to put any effort into it"
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<IIsi50MHz> toop didn't request to not see any document, just a "big document tutorial". But yeah, "one error is too much" implies "not a programmer".
<IIsi50MHz> Or not...a lot of things, really.
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<copec> I've worked at a medium sized ISP for a decade now, and all of the old perl or python or ruby or php that was some piece of the infrastructure has gone to the wayside, replaced by new python from a couple of new programmers. If it was all originally done in CL, it seems it could be maintained indefinitely
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<Xach> copec: i worked at ISPs for many years. i often prototyped in CL and then deployed in Perl.
<Xach> copec: i believe my company is still using a Lisp binary from 2013 to process some telco billing record files.
<Xach> my old company, that is
<copec> That's cool
<copec> I find Perl to be gross but really interesting at the same time
<Xach> I found perl's dynamic and lexical scoping mix helped me understand CL faster when I started using it.
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<Xach> And some of Perl's behavior influenced how Quicklisp was designed - I hated the indefinite dependencies of CPAN installs, so I planned to make everything known upfront.
<Xach> That's got some upsides and downsides.
<copec> wow, til
<copec> Perl is almost like a DSL someone would build on Lisp for a whole class of text processing
<copec> At least, that's how it has struck me
<copec> I'm not near the degree of programmer you are though
<Xach> Pfft! ISPs are the stepping stone to Lisp glory!
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<epony> that's where they grind their teeth, at the stepping stone for that special lisp
<Xach> the paper about the k2 system for ISP product modeling was very inspiring to me
<Xach> and i believe rme is an isp veteran as well
<rme> That's true.
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