<kristianpaul> from #fpga
<kristianpaul> 21:13 < Quack> milkymist rocks....that guy is just awesome
<kristianpaul> ;-)
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: that's on freenode #fpga? does he know about #milkymist?
<wolfspraul> invite him here if he likes to...
<kristianpaul> sure
<kristianpaul> yeah, #fpga at freenode
<sqgl> Just heard about MilkyMist.org but I can't find any good demos on the site or on youtube.
<sqgl> Can anyone recommend one please?
<xiangfu`> sqgl: there are some URL in that page.
<xiangfu`> sqgl: for Video Demo, we don't have good High quality video demo.
<xiangfu`> sqgl: but we have a lot of good screenshot ;-)
<sqgl> Is this maybe because most of you specialise in coding rather than performance?
<sqgl> I also know that screen capture takes a lot CPU
<sqgl> How would Screen Shot of MilkyMist look different from a Screen Shot of MilkDrop?
<xiangfu`> there are some picture are different. if there is Video-In in milkymist.
<xiangfu`> the milkymist not only take the Sound, also Video-In, OSC, MIDI ..
<sqgl> Yes, I forgot about the Video In.
<sqgl> I would like to see realtime reaction to OSC or MIDI though.
<sqgl> I do it on PX using Arkaos and some very complex Midi-Ox programming
<xiangfu`> sqgl: (screen capture) we do focus on performance, the performance is all on 'video synthesize' for now :D, step by step.
<sqgl> But my laptop overheats into Thermal shutdown so MilkyMist might be a god direction for me.
<xiangfu`> sqgl: (OSC) there is simple video :http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:TouchOSC-control-m1-performence.ogv
<sqgl> Yes that is the kind of video I was looking for
<xiangfu`> sqgl: what is 'PX'?
<sqgl> But only the first controller of the four is obviously doing something.
<sqgl> PX?
<sqgl> Oh sorry
<sqgl> XP :)
<sqgl> no
<sqgl> I meant PC
<sqgl> (but it is running XP)
<xiangfu`> sqgl: OSC, it's easy modify to support four. but we need find a good way that connect OSC and milkymist
<sqgl> watches video again to see if he can make more sense of it
<sqgl> MIDI is crap.
<sqgl> OSC is good selling point.
<xiangfu`> ?
<xiangfu`> oh
<sqgl> MIDI clock is very bad.
<xiangfu`> MIDI, I don't know much. I don't have another device have MIDI, only milkymist :)
<sqgl> And you would already know about poor 127 step resolution of course.
<sqgl> MIDI is very bad for live electronic music jams. I often struggle with it.
<xiangfu`> (complex Midi-Ox programming) what is that. can you give me more info, for learn MIDI programming thanks.
<sqgl> Mid-Ox is freeware for Windows
<sqgl> It has lots of mapping options
<xiangfu`> if the OSC can replace MIDI at all in your case?
<sqgl> and very stable
<sqgl> No
<sqgl> When I play solo I use Traktor
<sqgl> Which is a DJ program
<sqgl> They used to have OSC but now only MIDI
<sqgl> I don't know why. Maybe a licence/business decision.
<sqgl> But I could map MIDI to OSC via some software I suppose.
<sqgl> Do you know why the Hong Kong Shop does not have MilkyMist on its web site anymore?
<xiangfu`> we out of stock. working on the RC3 now.
<sqgl> Even watching that video a second time I cannot understand what soft-controls 2,3,4 do
<sqgl> Is that your shop?
<sqgl> (I am from Australia so I would buy from HK)
<sqgl> (if I buy)
<xiangfu`> not mine. our company :)
<sqgl> Cool.
<xiangfu`> Soft-control 2 is color I guess. 3 is the lines at bottom and top.
<sqgl> But after so many years there is still not a cool video :(
<xiangfu`> yes. we should do VGA-output capture for good video.
<sqgl> I just found a good way to capture.
<sqgl> If you use Windoze
<sqgl> ?
<xiangfu`> no. but I can find a Windows pc
<sqgl> Then you can use MaxiVista MirrorPro
<sqgl> on a second powerful PC (at your friends house if you do not have one) and use a screencapture program
<sqgl> I use CaptureWiz
<xiangfu`> no. it will not working. the screen is direct output by Milkymist one.
<sqgl> Of course the whole point of MikyMist is that it takes the load from your CPU/GPU
<sqgl> and so there should be plenty left over for screen capture
<xiangfu`> you have to have some hardware to capture the VGA-OUTPUT.
<sqgl> Ahhhh I understand now
<sqgl> In one way I like the fact that it cannot be captured (easily)
<sqgl> Very underground! :)
<sqgl> Audience must be at the gig.
<sqgl> Do you know anyone in Australia using it?
<wolfspraul> I don't think anybody in Australia yet
<wolfspraul> but... I have a question for you :-)
<wolfspraul> Australia has a relatively rare mains power connector, Type I on Wikipedia's list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_power_around_the_world
<wolfspraul> how are electronic products typically sold in Australia? all power supplies have this native plug right away? or they have a US plug and then some adapter?
<wolfspraul> or do some of your power sockets now support US or EU plugs as well?
<wolfspraul> I'm asking because I am currently working on the power supplies for our upcoming run
<sqgl> No adapter.
<sqgl> all power supplies have this native plug right away
<sqgl> But a US plug can be twisted with pliers and it fits.
<sqgl> I think all devices now need an earth pin like in that picture.
<sqgl> There used to be devices without the earth pin.
<sqgl> Sometimes I saw off the earth pin to prevent hoise.
<sqgl> Sometimes I saw off the earth pin to prevent noise.
<wolfspraul> your sockets only accept the native Australia plug?
<sqgl> Yes
<wolfspraul> here in China most sockets are built in such a way that you can plug almost anything in :-)
<sqgl> All of the sockets in every house
<sqgl> hehe
<wolfspraul> ok got it
<sqgl> yes, some good sockets in Thailand are like that also.
<sqgl> You can use what we call a kettle cord
<sqgl> which is a detachable cord for a kettle (like you use to boil water)
<sqgl> It is also usually the kind of cord/plug used for CRT monitors.
<sqgl> but it is maybe too large for the box.
<sqgl> If you have this socket on the box
<sqgl> then this cord is very easy to find.
<sqgl> All geeks have a spare one lying around.
<sqgl> Most consumers throw them out with there old broken goods.
<sqgl> They are ignorant.
<sqgl> They don't know that it is a passive device.
<sqgl> And people are wasteful here. It makes me sad.
<sqgl> having dinner now.
<sqgl> Back in 10 minutes
<sqgl> is away: the real world is intruding
<wolfspraul> it's called C15 here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettle_lead#C15
<wolfspraul> don't you think C5 or C7 are more common?
<xiangfu`> wolfspraul: I found we don't have a mailing list for ender users.
<sqgl> C15 definitely more common
<xiangfu`> the Description, is 'Milkymist One, Milkymist SoC and Flickernoise developers' list'
<sqgl> C7 is now obsolete because of the new law that everything must have an earth pin
<wolfspraul> I'm not sure end users would even want mailing lists nowadays
<sqgl> (I think it is law. I can check if you like)
<wolfspraul> C5 and C7 both have earthin pins, as per the table a bit higher on that page
<sqgl> C5 was only used by Compaq about 10 years ago.
<sqgl> Used to cost $50 !!!!!!
<sqgl> Now My Acer uses it.
<sqgl> But I have not seen it on non laptop power supplies here.
<wolfspraul> maybe that's a mistake in that table? don't quite understand
<wolfspraul> C7 seems to have only 2 pins
<sqgl> C5 has earth pin
<sqgl> C7 has not
<wolfspraul> then the table at the top is wrong
<wolfspraul> it's a wiki, should we correct it? :-)
<sqgl> I will change it.
<wolfspraul> ok, but then I still think C5 is more common than C15, but you don't think so
<sqgl> Then I can take the blame :)
<sqgl> Not in Australia.
<sqgl> C5 is very recent here.
<sqgl> But I don't buy many consumer goods.
<sqgl> I will ask my friends.
<wolfspraul> and C15 is the kitchen thing for stuff that gets hot, the computer one is C13
<xiangfu`> wolfspraul: in my kitchen is all C13.
<wolfspraul> yes please ask and just post here, whether I'm online or not. I check the backlog.
<xiangfu`> C5 is used in recently IBM thinkpad
<wolfspraul> sqgl: ahh, another very important thing for us... do you have any ideas of cool retail stores or small chains in Australia that could carry the m1?
<wolfspraul> we think we may only have a chance to generate some sales if a store can setup a demo unit and let it run, and let people play with a remote control to iterate over patches etc.
<wolfspraul> would need to be the right environment, maybe a music store or so
<sqgl> cool stores
<sqgl> Let me think
<sqgl> By the way C7 definitely has no earth pin.
<sqgl> Have change Wiki
<sqgl> Have changed Wiki
<sqgl> There are two big retail outlets here in Australia:
<sqgl> Dick Smith, Jaycar
<sqgl> Jaycar is more geeky
<sqgl> Dick Smith has become more consumer electronics.
<sqgl> I don't know any people who work for them (cannot help you).
<sqgl> So user would control it via an iPhone/iPod/iPad?
<sqgl> Apple products are a little bit too expensive to dedicate to demo use.
<sqgl> And customers may steal it.
<wolfspraul> can control with a 1 USD rc-5 remote control
<wolfspraul> I'm not looking for big stores, maybe smaller ones that get the product and are willing to setup a demo
<wolfspraul> needs to be someone who really likes it, because we have few data to promise great sales now
<wolfspraul> zero data actually :-)
<wolfspraul> it's more like "set this up and _maybe_ your customers will like it"
<wolfspraul> retail is so competitive nowadays that most larger chains will not be interested in this type of experiment
<sqgl> Yes big chains are like that
<sqgl> But the Jaycar chains are very geeky
<wolfspraul> where do musicians or djs go to buy stuff?
<sqgl> Is this the kind of remote you are talking about? http://www.amazon.com/Canon-RC-5-Wireless-Controller-Digital/dp/B00004WCCQ
<wolfspraul> when you say 'geeky' you mean computer geeks?
<sqgl> yes
<sqgl> computer/electronics
<sqgl> I buy my stuff online
<sqgl> Often from USA
<sqgl> Everything much cheaper there
<wolfspraul> he, only 1 button
<sqgl> I am not sure why
<wolfspraul> well it says 'rc-5' so it should work, yes
<wolfspraul> we'll find a nice small one, maybe include with each unit, or just for retail demo packages
<sqgl> How many buttons/controls would the $1 one have?
<wolfspraul> when I say 1 USD I mean China purchase price
<wolfspraul> that Canon thing there is a 1 USD control
<sqgl> Cost to you.
<wolfspraul> for Canon :-)
<wolfspraul> for anybody
<wolfspraul> just need to buy directly in China
<wolfspraul> dealextreme.com or so
<sqgl> Which is what I do with less specialised items
<wolfspraul> look at that
<wolfspraul> dealextreme has the same thing for 3.66 USD
<wolfspraul> well maybe it's nice mechanical work, and a bit lower volume, so it's 2 USD if you buy direct from the factory
<wolfspraul> but anyway, rc-5 remote control will work, and is our idea for people who want to setup a demo
<sqgl> Compared to music, women are much more into visuals
<sqgl> I ran VJ workshops
<sqgl> 9 women bu tonly 1 guy
<wolfspraul> yes we are thinking about marketing m1 as a dance visualizer
<sqgl> But women don't go to Jaycar
<wolfspraul> something like visikorg.com
<wolfspraul> sorry visikord.com
<wolfspraul> this is a nice remote, very small http://www.jaecs.com.tw/Web/pddetail.asp?PID=19
<wolfspraul> but has a few buttons, I think 1 button is extreme
<wolfspraul> need to ask Sebastien what he thinks the ideal number of buttons on a milkyst one remote control should be
<sqgl> Visikord demo video is kind of interesting.
<sqgl> It is just wo triggers, right?
<sqgl> It is just two triggers, right?
<sqgl> Most of the work there is done in pre sequencing the FX
<wolfspraul> I don't know much about visikord
<sqgl> Wow, JMJ is a childhood her of mine that inspired me to get into music
<sqgl> but the music in that video is cheeeeeeesy
<wolfspraul> sebastien spoke with the guy a few times. I think it's a system built out of several components, and I don't think it's actually on sale.
<wolfspraul> but he definitely has some good ideas and maybe m1 can be marketed in that direction
<wolfspraul> sebastien probably thought the most about it, he's not online right now I think
<sqgl> In direct competition?
<sqgl> You have potential for something more sophisticated as far as I can tell
<sqgl> But more sophisticated does not mean more sales
<sqgl> I think Visikord has the right idea.
<sqgl> but there must be similar apps for Wii now
<sqgl> Nobody doing interesting work here combining VJ with live video performance.
<sqgl> I am it I think.
<sqgl> And now I know why.
<sqgl> Because the technical side is so complicated.
<wolfspraul> don't know about competition
<sqgl> Nobody else is mad enough.
<wolfspraul> I never spoke to the visikord.com guy
<wolfspraul> I don't know what he sees as competition or not
<wolfspraul> that's just 1 guy, and I don't think anything is selling
<wolfspraul> maybe m1 can actually help him, and he can market a set around m1? I don't know
<wolfspraul> I am focusing on m1, because I manufacture that thing
<sqgl> They probably thought of it and thought... no, not yet, let's wait until there are purpose built gadgets... like yours!
<wolfspraul> I for sure don't see visikord as competition, no matter what he does :-)
<sqgl> I have not made a video lately.
<wolfspraul> that's because the potential market is huge, and what we really compete on is marketing smarts, strength of sales/distributor network, even financing (if it gets into retail)
<sqgl> But ther is an old one here...
<sqgl> Which seems to be quite popular
<sqgl> but I am not happy because I did not have the audio/video mappings calibrated well.
<sqgl> So you cannot really associate the dj'ing with the vj'ing
<sqgl> Even though that is supposed to be the point.
<sqgl> Eery DJ knob tweak or button press also controls a visual Effect.
<sqgl> Also, it only uses static jpgs. Now I use webcam and avi's.
<wolfspraul> m1 can only use the live video-in stream right now, no static images or static (preloaded) videos
<sqgl> Hmmm, that's disappointing.
<sqgl> But!.....
<sqgl> I could use my existing Arkaos setup
<sqgl> and output to m1 instead of to projector
<sqgl> mq then goes to projector
<sqgl> m1 then goes to projector
<sqgl> So it becomes another layer
<sqgl> I will go to Berlin in a few weeks (I hope) so I need to make my own demo video before I go.
<wolfspraul> well, first of all we work on a rock solid update feature :-) so you can plug in the Ethernet from m1 to your router, press a button, and m1 will update itself and reboot
<sqgl> Probably not a good time to mess abotu with a new gadget.
<wolfspraul> sounds like a small thing, but that needs to work rock solid and super easy, then we can lift people from one update to another to add features
<sqgl> Nice
<wolfspraul> if you go to Berlin, maybe there is a chance to meet Sebastien, if that's worth it for both you and him (don't know)
<sqgl> Sounds good.
<sqgl> I will be linking with SHARE
<sqgl> I run the sydney chapter
<sqgl> That might be a good way to build up credibility in the music scene.
<sqgl> As a long term plan.
<wolfspraul> share.dj is nice
<wolfspraul> yes definitely, please do
<sqgl> Maybe find one key person in each city to sell a unit at cost price to.
<wolfspraul> good thing that I sell units below cost, we wouldn't want to be that bad to anyone :-)
<wolfspraul> (just kidding)
<sqgl> I understand markup would be about 4x
<sqgl> That is normal
<wolfspraul> driving the price down is a joint task, including for me the manufacturer
<sqgl> for good reasons
<sqgl> When I say "cost price"
<sqgl> I mean the hardware price.
<sqgl> which is a small portion of the overall cost.
<sqgl> eg you talking here is a "cost"
<sqgl> shippping, storage, testing, marketing, etc etc
<sqgl> I think the current price is already reasonable for the market
<sqgl> Sorry, I mean for the musicain/VJ market
<sqgl> Not for the consumer dancey dance demo market though. I forgot about that angle.
<sqgl> Yeah, it is too expensive for casual users.
<wolfspraul> one by one
<sqgl> I should have said that before.
<sqgl> I wasn't thinking.
<wolfspraul> I do agree on the need to drive price down, that's a feature. we will work on that feature.
<wolfspraul> but right now we don't even have the product launched yet
<sqgl> For now the price is just fine for musicians.
<wolfspraul> we don't have the accessories complete
<wolfspraul> we are working on very important software features (like update)
<wolfspraul> those things get settled, then we start selling at 499 USD, then we drive the price down
<sqgl> I plan to be in Berlin for two months.
<sqgl> I am open to collaborations while there.
<sqgl> Even programming
<wolfspraul> even better
<wolfspraul> let's see when Sebastien is back in this channel, his nick is lekernel. then you can go from there...
<sqgl> Does Sebastian have a web site?
<wolfspraul> milkymist.org
<wolfspraul> :-)
<sqgl> You mean he owns the domain?
<wolfspraul> there's also lekernel.net
<sqgl> So many good things come from Berlin.
<wolfspraul> he's the founder of the Milkymist project, and main developer to bring it to where it is today
<sqgl> Steinberg, Ableton, Native Instruments
<sqgl> And what is tha app that will pull apart the notes from a wav file for you?
<sqgl> From Munich
<wolfspraul> no idea
<wolfspraul> for this youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqEnz0_lDo4
<wolfspraul> how much time did it take you to make it?
<wolfspraul> roughly...
<sqgl> Melodyne!
<sqgl> That is the other amazing DAW app from Germany
<sqgl> Nobody knows how they can seperate out individual notes in a (say) a guitar chord.
<sqgl> is away: the real world is intruding