lekernel changed the topic of #milkymist to: Milkymist One, Migen, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs :: EHSM Berlin Dec 28-30 http://ehsm.eu :: latest video http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL181AAD8063FCC9DC
<azonenberg> which has had exploits out in the past
<wpwrak> your silk screen courtyard also has inconsistencies. e.g., 0402 has a large one, 0603 has one that's clearly too tight
<kristianpaul> i was to qoute cisco :)
<kristianpaul> about*
<azonenberg> kristianpaul: yeah, my goal is to be the antithesis of that
<azonenberg> wpwrak: i clip silk off pads
<wpwrak> you may want to try out stdpass footprints for 0402 etc. they all follow the same design concepts
<azonenberg> wpwrak: i made my own 0402 footprint since the lib didnt have any
<azonenberg> i used the stock 0603
<kristianpaul> cisco ips needs its antithesis too :)
<wpwrak> it's not only a question of clipping off the silk. you also get in trouble with registration. and you may violate solder mask to solder mask clearance.
<wpwrak> the stock footprints are crap. don't use them ;-)
<azonenberg> Lol
<azonenberg> Ok, fixed
<wpwrak> DIY is very forgiving. if you do the PCB at home you don't even need to get solder mask or silk right. if you do SMT at home, you can still have the solder paste all wrong. but if you make something that really goes all the way to a fab, then you see all the little things the stock components do wrong.
<wpwrak> and some of them use design specs from different worlds. e.g., wave soldering :)
<azonenberg> wave soldering for SMT??
<wpwrak> oh, sure
<azonenberg> not for BGA i hope
<wpwrak> when people still lived in caves, that's how they soldered their SOICs and such.
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> i've been doing reflow from day 1
<azonenberg> my first SMT board was an 0.65mm TSSOP and the next was a 64-TQFP
<wpwrak> yeah. *SSOP is very friendly. you can even do "manual wave" there.
<azonenberg> lol
<wpwrak> (e.g., if you don't have good flux)
<azonenberg> So, any further suggestions?
<azonenberg> bottom left is a little mepty but there isnt really any space to route any pins out there
<azonenberg> empty*
* kristianpaul dont have owen at home
<wpwrak> i would still move C15, C33, and C10 a little
<azonenberg> C33 is fine
<wpwrak> can you get a soldering iron between C33 and U1 ?
<azonenberg> C10 should move
<azonenberg> those pads are the outside of the pad, mind you
<azonenberg> the lead doesnt stick out that far
<wpwrak> ah, and you probably want to add a zone exclusion under the FPGA pins too. that ground ring could give you unwanted contacts where it's very hard to undo them
<azonenberg> i dod have one since there's a power plane there
<azonenberg> did*
<azonenberg> i have 1V2, 3V3, and 2V5 planes under the fpga
<azonenberg> and ground outside
<wpwrak> yes, U1 is a QFN. but unless you have one of those footprints with unreasonably long pads, it would still be pretty tight
<wpwrak> of course, with the stock footprints, all bets are off ;-)
<azonenberg> Thats a custom footprint
<azonenberg> no qfn32 in the library
<wpwrak> (planes) ah, i mean the zones near the pins, whatever they are. they seem a bit close to the pads
<wpwrak> add a bit too much solder paste and you have a pin permanently grounded. and good luck sucking that solder out again.
<azonenberg> Yeah, i'll try adding a keepout
<wpwrak> some of the inner vias may be a bit risky in that regard, too.
<azonenberg> also, this board is assuming soldermask
<azonenberg> i would never do a big QFP without one
<azonenberg> and all vias are tented in the gerbers
<azonenberg> the intention was to use a cheap batch fab service
<azonenberg> So 8 mils clearance from plane to pin is completely fine especially if you use fine pitch soldermask like i normally do
<wpwrak> oh, we have a new gerber command. G36 ;-)
<wpwrak> let's see what it does ..
<wpwrak> oh, area fill
<azonenberg> typical mask clearance i work with
<azonenberg> those are 0201s
<azonenberg> Note how good the registration is
<azonenberg> its off by like 25 microns
<azonenberg> am i getting spoiled by working with good fabs?
<wpwrak> hmm. you have zone fill also under 0603 components
<azonenberg> like i said this board is designed for 6/6 rules with soldermask
<azonenberg> there are so many cheap batch fabs out there
<azonenberg> i'm going to pay about $8 each for three blank boards
<azonenberg> With 6/6 rules, silk, and high-res LPI soldermask
<azonenberg> back when i used to make boards at home more often than i do now
<wpwrak> nice cheap oven. i wonder how you keep it from burning things.
<azonenberg> i used to use 0805 and 0603 passives to jump over traces all the time
<azonenberg> It cooks a lot hotter than the thermostat says
<azonenberg> when set for 200-210C my SAC305 melts
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<azonenberg> the melting point is 220ish so the oven is prob 230-240 at that point
<wpwrak> yes yes, it's okay to have traces under 0603 and such. it's just a little odd to see ground fill creep under them.
<azonenberg> I have 8 mil clearance on this fill
<azonenberg> to allow it to sneak in under the QFP etc
<azonenberg> as long as you have soldermask you're fine
<azonenberg> and if you're remaking it without mask, nothing stops you from using bigger clearance or eliminating the fill
<azonenberg> it is open hardware after all :P
<azonenberg> but i'm designing the version in the repo for cheap professional fab
<wpwrak> here's one that's a bit closer to what the real pcb looks like (includes solder mask and solder paste): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/minimal-spartan6-tq144-overview.png
<wpwrak> the QFN32 is of course all wrong, as expected :)
<azonenberg> all wrong? how
<azonenberg> i didnt put a paste print on the footprint
<azonenberg> since its meant for manual application
<azonenberg> but i have used that footprint before with hand soldering and it worked correctly with the ft232
<wpwrak> your TQFP has silk screen issues. so you'll rely on the fab to fix that for you
<azonenberg> I clipped silk during gerber export
<wpwrak> (all wrong) yes, it's just the paste.
<azonenberg> the fab clips too
<azonenberg> thats also the default tqfp144 footprint btw
<wpwrak> as i said, don't trust the stock footprints :)
<azonenberg> Lol
<azonenberg> Just ordered 3 boards from my usual fab
<azonenberg> we'll see how it turns out
<wpwrak> did you leave out "U1" from the silk screen on purpose ?
<azonenberg> yes, it didnt fit easily
<wpwrak> really ? there are acres of free space around it
<azonenberg> there wasnt when i first routed it :P
<wpwrak> heh ;-)
<azonenberg> So now i'm going to order some LX9s and then we'll see how it turns out in a few weeks
<wpwrak> board looks manageable now. pity it's not suitable for DIY PCB-making but it you get at least proper vias, it shouldn't cause too much trouble
<wpwrak> s/but it/but if/
<azonenberg> Yeah, i'm not used to designing for newbies anymore
<azonenberg> been spending too much time working with 01005s :P
<azonenberg> and BGAs
<wpwrak> ah, your 2V5 test point is awfully small :)
<azonenberg> All of them are the same size
<azonenberg> its plenty big enough
<wpwrak> yeah. all of them look awfully small :)
<azonenberg> well i've never had trouble probing one lol
<wpwrak> i'm thinking of situations where you need a permanent probe. so you solder a wire to it. and that wire may get mechanical stress. small pads come off easily ...
<azonenberg> Oh
<wpwrak> ah, and you have solder paste on your test points. tsk tsk ;-)
<azonenberg> Those were intended for temporary
<azonenberg> look at my ground pad
<azonenberg> thats a permanent clip-on test point
<azonenberg> the small ones are meant to just jab a scope probe into
<azonenberg> see if there's noise or not
<wpwrak> yeah, that one's solid
<wpwrak> sure. but sometimes you still want to make a more permanent connection. expect the unexpected :)
<azonenberg> Pogo pins
<azonenberg> thats what the pads are really intended for
<wpwrak> they seem small for that
<wpwrak> pogo pins tend to need some 100 mil pitch anyway. well, at least the ones i can find at digi-key. there must be smaller ones.
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<wpwrak> azonenberg: btw, here are two makefiles you can use to generate the sort of overview i made: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/ad-mst-mk.tar.bz2
<wpwrak> you need to check out a few utilities from the qi-hw eda-tools project. and you need kicad with our command-line patches.
<wpwrak> Makefile.kicad is a bit overengineered for what is used here. i just ripped it from ben-wpan and commented out the bits that don't work (which you don't need anyway)
<wpwrak> wolfspra1l: and you'll need this patch if you want to open azonenberg's design with kicad: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/ad-mst-path.patch
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<GitHub175> [milkymist-ng] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/wnhV8A
<GitHub175> [milkymist-ng/master] framebuffer: FIFO - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
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<GitHub33> [milkymist-ng] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/lUCuKQ
<GitHub33> [milkymist-ng/master] framebuffer: video timing generator - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
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<Fallenou> it seems openrisc enables immu and dmmu very early in Linux booting process
<Fallenou> in the _start assembly
<Fallenou> http://lxr.linux.no/#linux+v3.4.4/arch/openrisc/kernel/head.S
<Fallenou> line 541
<Fallenou> their init process is like : clear registers, setup kernel stack, clear bss, flush {i,d}TLB, enable {I,D}MMU
<Fallenou> What I don't understand is how the code can run right after activating IMMU
<Fallenou> as they don't map any page
<Fallenou> oh they seem to have a special "boot-time" tlb miss handler
<Fallenou> which kind of maps anything like Virtual==Physical
<GitHub164> [milkymist-ng] sbourdeauducq pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/b5Jz4A
<GitHub164> [milkymist-ng/master] framebuffer: register output of FIFO - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<GitHub164> [milkymist-ng/master] Work around imbecilic timing constraints system - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<larsc> I would expect that their kernel runs in a memory area where no translation is done
<Fallenou> I think there is translation
<Fallenou> at least adding "KERNELBASE"
<Fallenou> which is 0xc0000000
<larsc> maybe 0xc0000000-0xc??????? maps to 0x00000000-...?
<larsc> MIPS does something similar
<Fallenou> yes I think so
<Fallenou> because their macro "tophy()" takes the virt addr and adds 0xc0000000
<Fallenou> So I guess in their kernel binary, first instruction is at addr 0, but it's loaded in RAM at addr 0xc0000000
<Fallenou> and I guess too that it's booting from 0xC****
<larsc> i would expect the opposite. it's loaded at the physical address 0, but runs at the virtual address 0xc000000
<Fallenou> larsc: how do you understand this macro : http://lxr.linux.no/#linux+v3.4.4/arch/openrisc/kernel/head.S#L31 ?
<Fallenou> I don't get what the "-" is exactly doing
<larsc> the macro subtracts KERNELBASE from rs and puts it into rd
<Fallenou> according to http://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/as/Prefix-Ops.html#Prefix-Ops it's the two's complement negation
<Fallenou> ok so you're right
<Fallenou> 0xc... -> 0x0.... (virt -> phy)
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<GitHub156> [milkymist-ng] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/nKiJBA
<GitHub156> [milkymist-ng/master] framebuffer: fix sync generation - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<Fallenou> maybe a bit of work is done by their uboot bootloader
<Fallenou> https://github.com/milkymist/linux-milkymist < is this the latest Milkymist port of Linux ?
<Fallenou> the one which booted on the ML401 ?
<Fallenou> (or maybe M1 I don't remember)
<larsc> it booted on the M1
<Fallenou> ok :)
<Fallenou> larsc: if I remember correctly Takeshi and you worked on the Milkymist port ?
<larsc> yes, and lekernel did some work as well
<Fallenou> ok nice so I have you around to ask you some questions if I don't understand some low level linux stuff ? :)
<larsc> sure
<Fallenou> thanks !
<Fallenou> is Takeshi around in here (#milkymist) as well ?
<larsc> not that I remember
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<Fallenou> hi !
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<GitHub167> [milkymist-ng] sbourdeauducq pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/4yOgtg
<GitHub167> [milkymist-ng/master] framebuffer: fix pixel split - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<GitHub167> [milkymist-ng/master] framebuffer/vtg: fix dataflow control (inc. WA for Migen bug - FIXME) - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<GitHub167> [milkymist-ng/master] framebuffer: fake DMA for testing (WIP) - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
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<Fallenou> http://pastebin.com/m6Z7XKtY < why do I have local modifications on a newly cloned repository ?
<lekernel> are you sure you didn't have an existing linux-milkymist folder?
<lekernel> MacBook-Pro-de-Yann-Sionneau. la classe!
<Fallenou> aouch, j'aurai du cacher ça :)
<Fallenou> automatic zero-conf hostname
<Fallenou> 23:03 < lekernel> are you sure you didn't have an existing linux-milkymist folder? < that's what I thought, to be sure I rm -rf linux-milkymist and cloned it again as "linux-milkymist2"
<Fallenou> and I still have the same thing
<Fallenou> if I git stash, it does a stash but local modifications are still there
<Fallenou> if I git reset --hard it does nothing
<Fallenou> the same for git checkout -f
<Fallenou> really weird
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<wpwrak> you should have an eye on what sort of people your git hangs out with and what kind of stuff they take :)
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<Fallenou> hehe sure
<Fallenou> let's try under debian
<Fallenou> maybe the problem comes from the fact that when I clone github only sends me the "ng" branch and not the master branch
<Fallenou> I think git does not like when there is no master branch
<Fallenou> I should try to pull the master branch as well
<Fallenou> the clone is just fine under debian, poor old mac book has just taken too much "stuff" as wpwrak said
<Fallenou> gn8!
<kristianpaul> n8
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