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<rejon>
hi guys
<wolfspraul>
hey
<wpwrak>
oh, the ghost of rejon speaks to us ! :)
<rejon>
oh man, that sounds horrible
<wpwrak>
for the last few months, you've been seen a lot but never heard :)
<rejon>
Yeah, its unlike me I know ;)
<wpwrak>
btw, will you go to FISL this year ? i missed the deadline again but i'll try to sneak in ...
<wolfspraul>
the other day when talking about -ng, -7/ddr3, mirteo etc. the topic of how to simplify the m1 came up
<wolfspraul>
I had some thoughts on this as well, but it mostly involves USB :-)
<wolfspraul>
but quickly, for the record. the big value I see in the m1 board/product is that it is still one unified whole set, a whole product that works today
<wolfspraul>
in full awareness of the thousands of bugs lurking everywhere
<wolfspraul>
bugs and missing features
<wolfspraul>
but I don't want to compromise the *set* we got to work together here, and fall into separate hacking projects where everybody can happily claim that this or that feature works, but unfortunately they all don't work together, anywhere
<wolfspraul>
putting that aside, I can think of removing the following parts on m1, over time:
<wolfspraul>
1) native 5-pin midi
<wolfspraul>
that one is my #1. 5-pin midi is deader than dead. I don't think a single of the m1 users has used it, or will ever use it
<wolfspraul>
it's next to impossible to even buy these cables still
<wolfspraul>
absolutely no new devices with this standard will come out anymore
<wolfspraul>
we have started to support usb-midi, and if we continue with that (it's receive only now), then if anyone really still has some dust-collecting old midi devices they have to use with m1, we can refer them to those 5 USD dongles
<wolfspraul>
the need for that is so low that I wouldn't even think of including them with m1
<wolfspraul>
there are a few things we would be dropping still, such as the hardware-level passthrough
<wolfspraul>
or maybe electrical features in our native midi support that a usb-dongle could not do?
<wolfspraul>
but I hesitate to claim that until we specifically know what such feature could be (long cables?), especially since I think nobody will ever try anyway, as I said 5-pin midi is dead
<wpwrak>
(midi) i have !! even bought an expensive MIDI cable, which took about an hour of searching ;-))
<wolfspraul>
I think you agree with my points though, I try to make it as clear as possible
<wolfspraul>
we can remove that native subsystem
<wolfspraul>
nobody uses it, or will ever use it
<wolfspraul>
we can refer people to usb-midi dongles, especially after we more fully support them (in & out)
<wolfspraul>
but there is no rush for that removal, at the current volume it doesn't really matter whether it stays or goes
<wolfspraul>
next
<wolfspraul>
2. rca analog video in
<wolfspraul>
a bit harder case to make, but the reality is that our support and excitement for analog video in is muted
<wpwrak>
i don't feel an urgency for dropping legacy midi but yes, it's usefulness seems rather limited
<wolfspraul>
zero :-)
<wpwrak>
(no rush) exactly
<wolfspraul>
a zombie
<wolfspraul>
oh sure
<wolfspraul>
lemme continue with analog-in
<wolfspraul>
so I think the #1 competition to the quality of that video-in we have today is any 15 USD webcam
<wolfspraul>
our best argument against that is 'latency will be bad'
<wolfspraul>
but that sounds like a lame excuse really, because nobody tried hard
<wolfspraul>
so what I can foresee is that over the next year or so, with Linux/MMU hopefully happening, and the USB driver issue at some point being addressed, we get a chance to give some usb webcam a try
<wolfspraul>
*after* such usb webcam works, we can compare the performance to what we have over analog video-in and the ADI decoder
<wolfspraul>
and I somehow think who will win
<wolfspraul>
we pay more for the old-style analog camera than for a usb cam
<wolfspraul>
we need to source a separate 12V power supply for the camera
<wolfspraul>
we only scan half of the lines, and nobody seems to be motivated to improve that old stuff
<wolfspraul>
we pay 12 USD for the ADI decoder alone
<wpwrak>
no idea about webcam latency. could be intrinsic in the way they compress, but i don't really know. also the cost of internal memory limits the amount of buffering they could possibly do
<wolfspraul>
even if the latency of the webcam would be 10ms more, I would drop faster than anyone could make another argument :-)
<wolfspraul>
that old analog video-in is a temporary replacement, just the right thing (!) to do to get the m1 package off the ground
<wolfspraul>
but nothing for the long run
<wolfspraul>
for sure not
<wpwrak>
improving that old stuff may not be all that trivial. you'd have to de-interlace the signal, which is messy work.
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
I know
<wolfspraul>
and those codec chips are a loosing proposition as well
<wolfspraul>
everybody with a sane mind will migrate away from them
<wolfspraul>
but the order here is: get usb webcam support working first. that will take 1 year, best case.
<wolfspraul>
once a new (even other) digital solution works, drop the whole analog video-in thing
<wolfspraul>
after such new solution works
<wolfspraul>
i.e.: not now
<wolfspraul>
3. audio
<wolfspraul>
same argument as with video
<wolfspraul>
we have a quite difficult subsystem there
<wolfspraul>
yet we cannot really excel at any particularly powerful audio feature because that subsystem is hardwired for some use cases with the wolfson codec
<wolfspraul>
one day maybe with linux/mmu/usb in better shape, we can plug in a 1-2 USD usb audio card, and may have the same performance for the user as with that entire audio subsystem
<wolfspraul>
the wolfson codec alone will cost us more than a USB audio dongle
<wolfspraul>
there is no way anyone could resist the business case of removing that internal subsystem
<wolfspraul>
I see that even later than the analog video-in though, but it's on the same line of thought
<wolfspraul>
my strategy is: protect the *completeness* of the m1 experience through to the user
<wolfspraul>
don't rip out some stuff and leave users with even less of what they had before
<wolfspraul>
first get the newer/better/cheaper solution to work
<wolfspraul>
with midi we may almost be there already
<wolfspraul>
with other subsystems such as analog video-in, audio, vga, we need some more time and get the replacement working first
<wolfspraul>
which can take years
<wolfspraul>
but then we can remove all that old & expensive stuff
<wolfspraul>
that sums it up :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's my contribution to the "how can we simplify m1, make it cheaper, highlight the uniqueness/power of the milkymist soc" debate
<wpwrak>
(audio) that one has a reasonably good use case. digital audio isn't used all that much. and if you add too many dongles, the whole device becomes a mess
<wolfspraul>
it's #3 in my list for a reason
<wolfspraul>
I just explain my thinking, not any actions
<wolfspraul>
none of #2 and #3 will even work anytime soon (the replacement)
<wolfspraul>
the fact is that I can buy a usb-audio dongle for 1.50 USD
<wolfspraul>
and it won't get more expensive :-)
<wolfspraul>
the wolfson codec alone costs what? 4 USD?
<wolfspraul>
I don't even want to know, because the business case is already a lost one to start with
<wolfspraul>
if m1 could get some really unique things out of audio, that would be different
<wolfspraul>
like a 20 channel synthesizer/mixer/whatever
<wpwrak>
the point is that the product looks untidy if it's one box with a gazillion dongles hanging out
<wolfspraul>
but that's not the case, we use the subsystem only to feed a simple line-in to m1
<wolfspraul>
sure we could put the dongle inside the case
<wolfspraul>
but that's all premature
<wolfspraul>
I explain my 'simplification' thinking, because I also want to move towards products that allow milkymist soc to shine
<wolfspraul>
as opposed to us lugging around tons of legacy
<wpwrak>
then you have to worry about mechanical integration. are any of these cheap dongles designed for panel mounting ?
<wolfspraul>
I won't discuss it, it's too hypothetical
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
of course the audio subsystem stays for years
<wolfspraul>
let's survive those years first
<wolfspraul>
my point before even explaining my thinking was that we should protect the *completeness* that we have achieved
<wolfspraul>
I will
<wolfspraul>
640x480 vga may sound crappy
<wolfspraul>
but it works
<wpwrak>
maybe we can find a cheaper codec. could even be usb, used internally. that's a pretty common choice for an internal low-performance peripheral bus
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
that discussion is premature though
<wolfspraul>
let's focus our energy on where milkymist soc is unique/powerful
<wolfspraul>
and we have an audio subsystem now
<wolfspraul>
it's not that we have to decide whether/how to do one - we have one already
<wolfspraul>
of course I won't touch it
<wolfspraul>
admittedly my simplifaction strategy involves a lot of usb
<wolfspraul>
which causes understandable headaches
<wolfspraul>
for any of this to work, we probably need linux/mmu, we need a different usb core, etc.
<wpwrak>
the unique thing, for the VJ, are the smooth iterative video effects. and, if we put a bit more effort into it, also the ability to tweak them (midi or maybe something fancier in the future)
<wolfspraul>
so - much later :-)
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
did I make a point for removing/breaking anything that works?
<wolfspraul>
nope
<wolfspraul>
even removal of 5-pin midi is premature now
<wolfspraul>
but I could see us doing that in the next major update maybe
<wolfspraul>
there are no users of that and never will be...
<wpwrak>
i think anyone who wants to use midi on m1rc3 may find it useful because the usb ports may already be taken up by keyboard and mouse
<wpwrak>
but m1r4 won't have that problem either :)
<wolfspraul>
yes
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<lekernel_>
wolfspra1l: continue on that line, then add some stuff that make the product really unique and not just some slow computer, and you'll end up with something like the mirteo :)
<lekernel_>
good to see the ideas are sinking in :p
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<lekernel>
btw, if we have HDMI hooked directly to the fpga, we can have bidirectional video ports.
<lekernel>
and the -7 series have an ADC for audio-in, and can PWM audio-out... so will be easy to have audio off the expansion header
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<wolfspra1l>
good [audio]
<lekernel>
in defense of the midi-port, it's great for communicating with external AVRs (arduino etc.) without opening the box. as always, it's just that no one cares.
<lekernel>
which of course doesn't mean it should be kept
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<kristianpaul>
PWM audio-out, really and get decent performance?
<mumptai>
hi
<mumptai>
multi-bit deltasigma is kind-of okay
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<lekernel>
wolfspra1l: how did you submit your talk to campus party?
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<GitHub50>
[milkymist-mmu-simulation] fallen pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/0jKfBA