lekernel changed the topic of #milkymist to: Milkymist One, Migen, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs :: EHSM Berlin Dec 28-30 http://ehsm.eu
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<rejon> hi guys
<wolfspraul> hey
<wpwrak> oh, the ghost of rejon speaks to us ! :)
<rejon> oh man, that sounds horrible
<wpwrak> for the last few months, you've been seen a lot but never heard :)
<rejon> Yeah, its unlike me I know ;)
<wpwrak> btw, will you go to FISL this year ? i missed the deadline again but i'll try to sneak in ...
<wolfspraul> the other day when talking about -ng, -7/ddr3, mirteo etc. the topic of how to simplify the m1 came up
<wolfspraul> I had some thoughts on this as well, but it mostly involves USB :-)
<wolfspraul> but quickly, for the record. the big value I see in the m1 board/product is that it is still one unified whole set, a whole product that works today
<wolfspraul> in full awareness of the thousands of bugs lurking everywhere
<wolfspraul> bugs and missing features
<wolfspraul> but I don't want to compromise the *set* we got to work together here, and fall into separate hacking projects where everybody can happily claim that this or that feature works, but unfortunately they all don't work together, anywhere
<wolfspraul> putting that aside, I can think of removing the following parts on m1, over time:
<wolfspraul> 1) native 5-pin midi
<wolfspraul> that one is my #1. 5-pin midi is deader than dead. I don't think a single of the m1 users has used it, or will ever use it
<wolfspraul> it's next to impossible to even buy these cables still
<wolfspraul> absolutely no new devices with this standard will come out anymore
<wolfspraul> we have started to support usb-midi, and if we continue with that (it's receive only now), then if anyone really still has some dust-collecting old midi devices they have to use with m1, we can refer them to those 5 USD dongles
<wolfspraul> the need for that is so low that I wouldn't even think of including them with m1
<wolfspraul> there are a few things we would be dropping still, such as the hardware-level passthrough
<wolfspraul> or maybe electrical features in our native midi support that a usb-dongle could not do?
<wolfspraul> but I hesitate to claim that until we specifically know what such feature could be (long cables?), especially since I think nobody will ever try anyway, as I said 5-pin midi is dead
<wpwrak> (midi) i have !! even bought an expensive MIDI cable, which took about an hour of searching ;-))
<wolfspraul> I think you agree with my points though, I try to make it as clear as possible
<wolfspraul> we can remove that native subsystem
<wolfspraul> nobody uses it, or will ever use it
<wolfspraul> we can refer people to usb-midi dongles, especially after we more fully support them (in & out)
<wolfspraul> but there is no rush for that removal, at the current volume it doesn't really matter whether it stays or goes
<wolfspraul> next
<wolfspraul> 2. rca analog video in
<wolfspraul> a bit harder case to make, but the reality is that our support and excitement for analog video in is muted
<wpwrak> i don't feel an urgency for dropping legacy midi but yes, it's usefulness seems rather limited
<wolfspraul> zero :-)
<wpwrak> (no rush) exactly
<wolfspraul> a zombie
<wolfspraul> oh sure
<wolfspraul> lemme continue with analog-in
<wolfspraul> so I think the #1 competition to the quality of that video-in we have today is any 15 USD webcam
<wolfspraul> our best argument against that is 'latency will be bad'
<wolfspraul> but that sounds like a lame excuse really, because nobody tried hard
<wolfspraul> so what I can foresee is that over the next year or so, with Linux/MMU hopefully happening, and the USB driver issue at some point being addressed, we get a chance to give some usb webcam a try
<wolfspraul> *after* such usb webcam works, we can compare the performance to what we have over analog video-in and the ADI decoder
<wolfspraul> and I somehow think who will win
<wolfspraul> we pay more for the old-style analog camera than for a usb cam
<wolfspraul> we need to source a separate 12V power supply for the camera
<wolfspraul> we only scan half of the lines, and nobody seems to be motivated to improve that old stuff
<wolfspraul> we pay 12 USD for the ADI decoder alone
<wpwrak> no idea about webcam latency. could be intrinsic in the way they compress, but i don't really know. also the cost of internal memory limits the amount of buffering they could possibly do
<wolfspraul> even if the latency of the webcam would be 10ms more, I would drop faster than anyone could make another argument :-)
<wolfspraul> that old analog video-in is a temporary replacement, just the right thing (!) to do to get the m1 package off the ground
<wolfspraul> but nothing for the long run
<wolfspraul> for sure not
<wpwrak> improving that old stuff may not be all that trivial. you'd have to de-interlace the signal, which is messy work.
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> I know
<wolfspraul> and those codec chips are a loosing proposition as well
<wolfspraul> everybody with a sane mind will migrate away from them
<wolfspraul> but the order here is: get usb webcam support working first. that will take 1 year, best case.
<wolfspraul> once a new (even other) digital solution works, drop the whole analog video-in thing
<wolfspraul> after such new solution works
<wolfspraul> i.e.: not now
<wolfspraul> 3. audio
<wolfspraul> same argument as with video
<wolfspraul> we have a quite difficult subsystem there
<wolfspraul> yet we cannot really excel at any particularly powerful audio feature because that subsystem is hardwired for some use cases with the wolfson codec
<wolfspraul> one day maybe with linux/mmu/usb in better shape, we can plug in a 1-2 USD usb audio card, and may have the same performance for the user as with that entire audio subsystem
<wolfspraul> the wolfson codec alone will cost us more than a USB audio dongle
<wolfspraul> there is no way anyone could resist the business case of removing that internal subsystem
<wolfspraul> I see that even later than the analog video-in though, but it's on the same line of thought
<wolfspraul> my strategy is: protect the *completeness* of the m1 experience through to the user
<wolfspraul> don't rip out some stuff and leave users with even less of what they had before
<wolfspraul> first get the newer/better/cheaper solution to work
<wolfspraul> with midi we may almost be there already
<wolfspraul> with other subsystems such as analog video-in, audio, vga, we need some more time and get the replacement working first
<wolfspraul> which can take years
<wolfspraul> but then we can remove all that old & expensive stuff
<wolfspraul> that sums it up :-)
<wolfspraul> that's my contribution to the "how can we simplify m1, make it cheaper, highlight the uniqueness/power of the milkymist soc" debate
<wpwrak> (audio) that one has a reasonably good use case. digital audio isn't used all that much. and if you add too many dongles, the whole device becomes a mess
<wolfspraul> it's #3 in my list for a reason
<wolfspraul> I just explain my thinking, not any actions
<wolfspraul> none of #2 and #3 will even work anytime soon (the replacement)
<wolfspraul> the fact is that I can buy a usb-audio dongle for 1.50 USD
<wolfspraul> and it won't get more expensive :-)
<wolfspraul> the wolfson codec alone costs what? 4 USD?
<wolfspraul> I don't even want to know, because the business case is already a lost one to start with
<wolfspraul> if m1 could get some really unique things out of audio, that would be different
<wolfspraul> like a 20 channel synthesizer/mixer/whatever
<wpwrak> the point is that the product looks untidy if it's one box with a gazillion dongles hanging out
<wolfspraul> but that's not the case, we use the subsystem only to feed a simple line-in to m1
<wolfspraul> sure we could put the dongle inside the case
<wolfspraul> but that's all premature
<wolfspraul> I explain my 'simplification' thinking, because I also want to move towards products that allow milkymist soc to shine
<wolfspraul> as opposed to us lugging around tons of legacy
<wpwrak> then you have to worry about mechanical integration. are any of these cheap dongles designed for panel mounting ?
<wolfspraul> I won't discuss it, it's too hypothetical
<wpwrak> ;-)
<wolfspraul> of course the audio subsystem stays for years
<wolfspraul> let's survive those years first
<wolfspraul> my point before even explaining my thinking was that we should protect the *completeness* that we have achieved
<wolfspraul> I will
<wolfspraul> 640x480 vga may sound crappy
<wolfspraul> but it works
<wpwrak> maybe we can find a cheaper codec. could even be usb, used internally. that's a pretty common choice for an internal low-performance peripheral bus
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> that discussion is premature though
<wolfspraul> let's focus our energy on where milkymist soc is unique/powerful
<wolfspraul> and we have an audio subsystem now
<wolfspraul> it's not that we have to decide whether/how to do one - we have one already
<wolfspraul> of course I won't touch it
<wolfspraul> admittedly my simplifaction strategy involves a lot of usb
<wolfspraul> which causes understandable headaches
<wolfspraul> for any of this to work, we probably need linux/mmu, we need a different usb core, etc.
<wpwrak> the unique thing, for the VJ, are the smooth iterative video effects. and, if we put a bit more effort into it, also the ability to tweak them (midi or maybe something fancier in the future)
<wolfspraul> so - much later :-)
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> did I make a point for removing/breaking anything that works?
<wolfspraul> nope
<wolfspraul> even removal of 5-pin midi is premature now
<wolfspraul> but I could see us doing that in the next major update maybe
<wolfspraul> there are no users of that and never will be...
<wpwrak> i think anyone who wants to use midi on m1rc3 may find it useful because the usb ports may already be taken up by keyboard and mouse
<wpwrak> but m1r4 won't have that problem either :)
<wolfspraul> yes
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<lekernel_> wolfspra1l: continue on that line, then add some stuff that make the product really unique and not just some slow computer, and you'll end up with something like the mirteo :)
<lekernel_> good to see the ideas are sinking in :p
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<lekernel> btw, if we have HDMI hooked directly to the fpga, we can have bidirectional video ports.
<lekernel> and the -7 series have an ADC for audio-in, and can PWM audio-out... so will be easy to have audio off the expansion header
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<wolfspra1l> good [audio]
<lekernel> in defense of the midi-port, it's great for communicating with external AVRs (arduino etc.) without opening the box. as always, it's just that no one cares.
<lekernel> which of course doesn't mean it should be kept
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<kristianpaul> PWM audio-out, really and get decent performance?
<mumptai> hi
<mumptai> multi-bit deltasigma is kind-of okay
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<lekernel> wolfspra1l: how did you submit your talk to campus party?
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<GitHub50> [milkymist-mmu-simulation] fallen pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/0jKfBA
<GitHub50> [milkymist-mmu-simulation/master] Update ISim wave visualization window config file - Yann Sionneau
<GitHub50> [milkymist-mmu-simulation/master] Indent fix - Yann Sionneau
<GitHub50> [milkymist-mmu-simulation/master] Cleaning code - Yann Sionneau
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<GitHub78> [milkymist-mmu] fallen pushed 5 new commits to mmu-bios: http://git.io/gQWX-Q
<GitHub78> [milkymist-mmu/mmu-bios] Add tests for DTLB exception handling - Yann Sionneau
<GitHub78> [milkymist-mmu/mmu-bios] Increase stack size - Yann Sionneau
<GitHub78> [milkymist-mmu/mmu-bios] Add MMU handling functionality - Yann Sionneau
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<Fallenou> a nice dtlb-miss-exception handling test running successfully in ISim :)
<Fallenou> Will try soon on FPGA
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<wpwrak> wohoo ! i hear trumpets ! horses ! the sounds of a million marching feet ! it's the armies of the mighty penguin !
<Fallenou> hehe :) Hope the army will arrive soon enough !
<Fallenou> if more tests tend to prove dtlb lookups and exceptions are reliable, I think I might soon start working on ITLB
<Fallenou> which should not be so different to implement
<Fallenou> but really more hard to debug
<Fallenou> s/more hard/harder/g
<Fallenou> will shoot an email soon with a sum up about dtlb exception handling and a few logs of tests on FPGA and ISim
<GitHub68> [misp] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ohQ62Q
<GitHub68> [misp/master] Memory allocator - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<GitHub151> [milkymist-ng] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/4in2RQ
<GitHub151> [milkymist-ng/master] software/libbase: uintptr_t - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
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<wolfspra1l> lekernel: I was invited by Nelson and he helped me through the paperwork
<wpwrak> Fallenou: with dtlb working, itlb should be a breeze :)