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<wolfspraul>
xilinx ise eula
<wolfspraul>
"user agrees not to decompile, translate, reverse-engineer, disassemble or otherwise reduce to human readable form the data files generated by the software"
<wolfspraul>
"publish or disclose the results of any benchmarking of the software"
<wolfspraul>
ha ha
<wolfspraul>
yeah, I can imagine they need that. good thing that I saw already a number of papers at least who were not afraid to include "benchmarking" in their paper
<wolfspraul>
so for my fpgatools, I will stay away from ISE, pretty much any process that involves any ISE tool and bitstream manipulation violates their eula
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<Fallenou>
wolfspraul: is this legal to forbid any benchmarking of their tool ?
<Fallenou>
they can virtually say whatever they want "our product is the best blablabla" and everybody is expected to just trust them ?
<Fallenou>
it should be a right to be able to compare products :)
<Fallenou>
and to write about it
<wolfspraul>
oh you should be relaxed about it
<wolfspraul>
that could be a long discussion
<wolfspraul>
a lot of things are written in a lot of eulas
<wolfspraul>
it's a fact that it's written there like this, and it speaks for Xilinx
<wolfspraul>
imagine BMW forbidding their buyers to publish "benchmarks" of the car they bought?
<wolfspraul>
do they already?
<wolfspraul>
I don't know
<wolfspraul>
so BMW can claim the car is doing 250 km/h, but actually it barely can make 160 km/h downhill?
<wolfspraul>
whatever... :-)
<wolfspraul>
for my fpgatools, I am already staying away from all trademarks, and of course all copyrightable sources
<wolfspraul>
the eula just reminded me that the path is correct to also stay away from hooking into or latching onto xdl, par, bitgen or other tools
<wolfspraul>
and we don't need to, I don't
<Fallenou>
fine :)
<Fallenou>
finishing my breakfast then gotta run to work
<Fallenou>
see you !
<wolfspraul>
have a nice day
<Fallenou>
thanks you too
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<wolfspraul>
there is no demand, we have plenty of M1 in stock
<wolfspraul>
I need to think about it
<wolfspraul>
I definitely want to keep m1 in stock, on sale, and continue to fix bugs and deliver on the promise and be on the lookout for the next thing
<wolfspraul>
but for sure I will not make a whole bunch of new units now, why? to increase inventory? :-) no point
<wolfspraul>
so let's see
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<wolfspraul>
I'm in no rush there, I don't make more m1 so I have a larger pile to look at
<lekernel>
ok. and when do we switch to 7/ddr3/simplified board/digital video io?
<wpwrak>
no prototypes ?
<wolfspraul>
one by one, there is no news
<wolfspraul>
of course we should make them, given the work we put in
<wolfspraul>
switch - asap
<wpwrak>
so what is it then ? "i don't make more" or "we should make them" ? :)
<wolfspraul>
I don't mind just keep moving forward with the tech, but it's a difficult decision to not rip our community apart
<wolfspraul>
misunderstanding
<wolfspraul>
I understood sebastien's question as in "a new run of xxx m1"
<wolfspraul>
which I see no need for, because we have plenty of m1 in stock
<wolfspraul>
you are asking about the m1r4 verification/prototype, and my 'upgrade' idea
<wpwrak>
yeah. three digits seems large :)
<wolfspraul>
there are several things here
<wpwrak>
"board swap" :)
<wolfspraul>
1) fully sellable "retail" boxes in stock
<wolfspraul>
2) boards we make (pcba)
<wolfspraul>
3) sebastien asking about the best way to phase-in -7, ddr3, spi
<wolfspraul>
for #1, we have 15 or so units in stock, sales are 0
<wolfspraul>
so I don't want to add more "for-sale" units, why? for who?
<wolfspraul>
nobody wants them anyway :-)
<wolfspraul>
for #2, of course we want to verify the work we did
<wpwrak>
#2: good :)
<wolfspraul>
then it overlaps a little with #3, because there is a tendency to say "since there is no time pressure, let's also add XYZ in now"
<wolfspraul>
but the decisions are all difficult
<wolfspraul>
no demand, no money, small community that can easily break apart and move into different directions
<wolfspraul>
oh well :-)
<wolfspraul>
if someone had access to some artix7-200, maybe we should just upgrade now :-)
<wpwrak>
i don't like the idea of a radically different board too much
<wolfspraul>
but then there is ddr3, and and
<lekernel>
(artix7) I can ask
<wolfspraul>
yes I understand
<wpwrak>
i'd much rather see a proof of concept of the new user interface first
<lekernel>
the -100 is probably cheaper though, and still twice the size of what we have now
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: there will be 3 types initially, -100, -200 and -300
<wpwrak>
and i think we can obtain something of practical use without much hardware development from our side
<wolfspraul>
given what I learnt from xilinx pricing, I randomly guess them to be priced at 100 USD / 200 USD / 300 USD
<wolfspraul>
the -300 is not supported in the webpack version of ISE
<wolfspraul>
that brings us down to -100 and -200
<lekernel>
I don't care too much about webpack... people who have the nerves to touch the fpga will find a way around the license ...
<wpwrak>
(practical use) i'm particularly worried about having physical pieces on that tablet. while this will certainly look great in art demos, i seriously doubt it'll be liked in the field
<wolfspraul>
first I mention it here because it is a fact
<wpwrak>
(physical pieces) so that could pass as a concept study. like car makes make fancy-looking things that will never be produced. but i don't see this as leading towards a product.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: i don't think we want to promote piracy :)
<lekernel>
I'm just stating a fact
<wpwrak>
lekernel: of course, if wolfgang is successful at reviving llhdl, maybe that would be our salvation ...
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
I am not reviving llhdl
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you're our only hope :)
<wolfspraul>
let's see how much I can focus on this little research project after all
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you have motivation and perseverance. you only need to acquire the skills ;-)
<lekernel>
what about making a successful product first? then we can focus on geeky little side projects like llhdl ...
<roh>
lekernel: ;)
<roh>
lekernel: i was thinking about exactly that and how to 'use' the components already there and came to the conclusion that we mostly need to think about reducing the featureset per 'application' and make more specialized tools.
<roh>
like 'a box which does compositing of live video sources' and 'a box for mapping' .. but use the same hardware, just have different 'apps' or 'images' per usecase. the goal would be to make use easier for novices and maybe broaden the userbase that way
<kristianpaul>
and the gui !!! remenber it can be a 16 bit cpu but if user interface works...
<roh>
get out of that 'beta, only for hackers' corner
<kristianpaul>
roh: yeah, i like the box idea
<roh>
kristianpaul: i dont think using a 16 compared to a 32bit cpu doesnt matter in the end. i'd stay at what we have and works.
<lekernel>
actually, yes, the "simplified" mainboard could make a nice hdmi mixer ...
<lekernel>
and we also simply DNP HDMI connectors, DDR3 chips, USB, etc.
<roh>
but first i think we should start at the beginning, and talk to people in the field of 'customers' .. means real vjs, who make a living and ask them aboutn their tools and why they chose them and what they would wish for _exactly_
<roh>
like 'doing a survey' or 'sampling real-world wishlists'
<kristianpaul>
roh: no no i wast comparing hw, i wanted to re call FIX software issues and improve usabillity
<lekernel>
well everyone's talking about a hi res video mixer... that one seems pretty clear
<kristianpaul>
s/FIX/fix
<kristianpaul>
everyone's is talking about cloud computing too... ;-)
<roh>
kristianpaul: we would start with usecases which we can realize with the existing m1r3 i guess. and work from there. (atleast i would do)
<wpwrak>
roh: regarding real vjs: would you expect them to be residents who have a fixed installation at their club (for things like milkymist), or rather nomads who carry their own creative equipment
<lekernel>
roh: what would you think of a hdmi mixer?
<lekernel>
say 3 channels + 1 output
<roh>
lekernel: we need hd video mixing for sure. for mapping as well as for compositing or other stuff ive seen happening
<wpwrak>
roh: also, how large is your sample size ?
<lekernel>
just simple compositing
<lekernel>
3 faders, one for each source, done
<roh>
wpwrak: berlin creative crowd.. not that big. but mostly they are working with macs and stuff like vvv etc.
<kristianpaul>
roh: me too
<roh>
wpwrak: mapping is very 'in' and does great stuff combined with live video mixing and logo insertions
<wpwrak>
roh: so you say no customers, even for a better/friendlier milkymist ?
<lekernel>
wpwrak: the video mixer can work with their macs
<lekernel>
and I think they really want it
<lekernel>
and it's a first step to get out of the closet
<kristianpaul>
hdmi mixer, duck, ast not for me, but if even that dint work in our current composite inputs... why not have it already working there
<roh>
wpwrak: i think we should first do tools people want already before doing madmen science planning the revolution
<kristianpaul>
s/ast/question
<roh>
wpwrak: i think there are customers who could do with the m1r3 hw if we only had software which solves their problem. i just dont know the problems well enough since i'm not a vj.
<roh>
but i know one and when he comes back from london i will pick his brainz
<wpwrak>
roh: (vjs) so the ones you know, do they have a place where they usually work or do they move around ?
<roh>
wpwrak: both. this specific one is doing it only in one place i guess
<roh>
to be fair: i know more people who do parties and lighting than video projections.
<roh>
dia-beamers and laser-etched metal sheets for masks and such stuff. moving crystals in the path of light.. such stuff
<wpwrak>
roh: okay, so mobility would likely be a requirement
<roh>
wpwrak: for some. but i think there is also a real market for a rack-mountable version.
<wpwrak>
roh: which seems plausible to me, also considering that m1 isn't a very widely known device. so it would be a vj's "special" tool
<lekernel>
roh: I kinda like the "same hardware" idea...
<roh>
19", 1U , all connectors on the back + one usb in front
<lekernel>
yeah
<lekernel>
basic board, all connectors on one side
<roh>
lekernel: maybe even split the board in pieces, so we can add/remove/mount differently depending on case and use
<lekernel>
so we can rack mount it... for USB use an "extension cord"
<roh>
so have the fpga board with some hd-flatcable conn. and then io boards for different stuff. so we could e.g. remove a hdmi port and add more midi or usb
<lekernel>
and use the same board in the small video mixer, in the mirteo (with rf sensor board), etc.
<roh>
lekernel: i think for clubs, it would be even reasonable having a box fixed in their gear.
<lekernel>
why not mount the hdmi conns directly on the main board? smaller, easier, cheaper.
<roh>
then it could work as hdmi-passthrough or mixer, add logos of the club.. whatever or even run standalone through some auto-vj program when nobody connected his gear.
<roh>
lekernel: i think for some high-speed io that makes sense.
<roh>
lekernel: but think for example of uses in the audio-world. adding a 'spdif and AES/EBU' board could make it a sound router/mixer
<lekernel>
well, it should be a different platform then. you don't need a big fpga and 60 gbps of memory bandwidth for audio ...
<roh>
so having one or multiple connectors inside to add more io boards makes lots of sense to me. especially since thatb would make it less expensive to experiment with additional usecases. no new spin of the fpga board needed
<lekernel>
yeh we could do that
<lekernel>
but I expect those io boards to be rather small...
<roh>
lekernel: hdmi has internal audio. and if you do lots of channels and effects on that. one could synthesize even musical stuff in there
<lekernel>
ok, one by one :) writing audio synthesis software isn't easy.
<roh>
sure. maybe only having some adc or level converters, optocouplers, whatever needed for the phy
<roh>
that means i would also move analog video ins there (when needed) .. only keep a bare minimum of digital ones on the fpga board. means: powersupply, hdmi i/o (2-3) usb, ethernet.
<lekernel>
for now what I can see is (1) video mixer (2) later, maybe with some features like the m1 has today (3) rackmount versions of those two (4) mirteo
<lekernel>
all sharing a lot of the same infrastructure
<roh>
the important point: there are people doing open source apps for that. but they need some platform to do so on. i would hope to piggyback on that.
<lekernel>
yeah but still ... video stuff is orders of magnitude faster
<roh>
true.
<roh>
but you know that that resolutions we do nowadays are only possible because hw got more powerful. same was and is true for audio. more processing power allowed for more and better effects and methods. so i would never say any application will never use 'that much power' ;)
<lekernel>
haha
<lekernel>
well... then yeah, feel free to invite the chameleon people to hack on the next board ;)
<roh>
a good synth alone needs loads of samples in ram. ive seen a sampleset of a steinberg piano being in the gigabyte range
<lekernel>
but that's what? 1Mbit/s?
<lekernel>
the next board will have 60-70Gbps
<lekernel>
(with all DDR3 chips places)
<lekernel>
placed
<roh>
no. it gets downsampled some dimensions after mixing. and you need to be able to play hundreds of channels and mix them. basically i think one would synth a dsp or more into the fpga.
<roh>
also: think of using one mm not like on chameleon. more like a rack of chameleons in one mm1, including routing inside the box in sw.
<roh>
that means you need the video out just do display the 'frontpanels' of that one rack
<roh>
for like a hdmi display ;)
<lekernel>
wouldn't be too hard for someone to add an audio module... if they feel like writing all that software :)
<roh>
i think they would need help getting a dsp inside there, but the 'plugins' doing the effects i think they can do
<lekernel>
so, what would you think of a mainboard that has artix7, a few DDR3 (DNP'able for applications that need less memory bandwidth), 4-5 HDMI connectors (DNPable), USB (DNPable), Ethernet (DNPable), and I/O expansion?
<roh>
hm.. when there would be one of multiple a sata ports on the board one could make it a harddisk-multitrack-recorder
<lekernel>
via io expansion
<lekernel>
or just footprint/dnpable...
<roh>
lekernel: yeah. sure. (when the io-exp- header can be made so high speed (which i hope))
<roh>
i'm not sure if the fpga could directly drive sata lines of if some driver chip is required
<lekernel>
direct driving is ok on a7
<roh>
nice
<lekernel>
(all -T FPGAs)
<lekernel>
but then someone needs to write that gateware, of course.
<roh>
what do you think of the hdmi ports. also no drivers needed? ive heard bad stuff when doing this on s6 with long cables
<lekernel>
no drivers needed either
<lekernel>
we only need an ethernet phy and usb transceivers
<roh>
sure. maybe we can put the switching power onboard also to sink cost?
<lekernel>
well, yeah, of course
<lekernel>
and nor/spi flash
<lekernel>
spi might free some io and be cheaper...
<roh>
no sdcard slot?
<roh>
spi flash is fscking slow. beware.
<lekernel>
no sdcard... sd is a pain
<roh>
also sdcard is only fun with some block-cache in ram active
<lekernel>
yeah, need to stop the feature creep at some point :)
<roh>
sd is cheap and could make lots of sense for apps (not the fpga bitstream)
<lekernel>
there's 4-bit "SPI" which seems reasonably fast
<lekernel>
yes, but we need a flash for the bitstream already. sd adds pure complexity.
<roh>
well.. that IS what sdcards do
<lekernel>
no, it's not the same protocol
<lekernel>
4-bit "SPI" is much saner
<lekernel>
and you also control what chip is in there, no need to be compatible with all cards
<lekernel>
anyway, SD isn't fast and can sit on the io connector, if someone wants to write software and gateware for it at some point
<roh>
sure. sd is kinda annoying. but its a)dead cheap and b) user replaceable.
<roh>
but you are right. it can go to the io board. for stuff where it makes sense
<roh>
but hey.. nice... sounds like a battleplan for the a7
<lekernel>
milkymist modular mainboard? m3? :)
<roh>
m^3 please ;)
<roh>
mm^3
<roh>
even if i shouldnt care. real values should make labels unimportant
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<kristianpaul>
lekernel: what about CF ? also a pain
<kristianpaul>
?
<lekernel>
not only a pain, but going to compete with M1 in terms of unpopularity in a few years
<lekernel>
but if you like CF... you have the I/O connector and a text editor at your disposal
<kristianpaul>
i heard that a few years ago :)
<kristianpaul>
lekernel: you always so friendly and comunicative ;-)
<roh>
kristianpaul: well, in that case he is surely right. cf is dead
<roh>
also expensive and less avail.
<lekernel>
I think he was answering my "text editor at your disposal" comment *g*
<roh>
hrr
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<lekernel>
I don't know what to do with r4... difficult...
<GitHub28>
[migen/master] flow: generic parameter passing to Actor from sequential/pipelined - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<GitHub28>
[migen/master] flow: fix actor repr - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<wolfspraul>
[regarding r4] if we want to avoid that milkymist becomes like opencores, we need to make sure that whatever new thing we do reaches all the old folks
<wolfspraul>
otherwise it will becomes like opencores, 100% sure :-)
<wolfspraul>
become
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<roh>
wolfspraul: what do you think about making it modules also in hw?
<wolfspraul>
don't know, too hypothetical. modules are expensive.
<wolfspraul>
the trend is towards more integrated and cheaper hw
<wolfspraul>
in fact so cheap that I think the main way to sell hw in the future is via great design and lifestyle/taste, not tech specs
<wolfspraul>
the 'great design' includes hw+sw, naturally. but only the overall experience to the end user matters, imho
<roh>
wolfspraul: i think you need to differentiate the markets there. its not consumer market. its 'working creatives tools' market.
<kristianpaul>
but we wan change that dont you think roh ?
<kristianpaul>
if you could trust time from a copyleft hardware device is a good exaple
<roh>
the idea of modules is to make everything not essential optional, to make it cheaper to make 'another product' by only needing to make a single, simple board and not respin sth with the expensive parts like the fpga on
<kristianpaul>
roh: do you would trust time from a clock watch you made your self or another floss related project
<roh>
kristianpaul: if i know how good it is supposed to work, yes.
<roh>
usually i trust my norebooks ntp synced clock most. which uses opnesource sw parts to work (ntpd, linux kernel, gnome panel clock)
<kristianpaul>
you could know but if it dint work no matter what tech specs come with..
<roh>
thats a default for me. things need to work. everything else is secondary.
<roh>
i dont care about techspecs if they dont matter (but they mostly do)
<kristianpaul>
:)
<kristianpaul>
lets hope that then
<roh>
mm1 currently can do everything, but its difficult and not easy to sell, make it more specific for multiple usecases and do those better than now, and easy to use.
<roh>
then it will be also easier to sell. modules was just the idea to seperate the things we share between all 'products' and those specific to make development faster and easier
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<Fallenou>
modularity is - I think - one of the key thing of Arduino's success. The other thing is the IDE which is dead simple to use and the libraries that abstract hardware (AVR) things and makes software dev easy
<Fallenou>
but modularity surely is one of the key
<Fallenou>
it has allowed the emergence of several hundreds of "shields"
<Fallenou>
So I would say a modular M1, with an easier to use GUI would be a good idea
<Fallenou>
for instance a patch editor with almost no line of code, all in GUI, with previsualisation etc, dead simple, instant feedback to see what you're doing
<Fallenou>
no line of code <= for the user to write
<roh>
i still hope for no ui, everythin possible via web
<Fallenou>
we could keep the FNP language, the GUI could be generating the FPN files for instance
<Fallenou>
well web UI for instance, why not
<roh>
including preview
<Fallenou>
web/qt/Lua/whatever
<Fallenou>
just something dead easy, sexy, and with live visualisation
<roh>
i know somebody who would love to have a 19" box mounted and be able to control the vj hw from time to time remotely
<Fallenou>
or if not "live/instant", at least more easy than compile then run then go back in text editor etc
<Fallenou>
it would be cool to see the patch change while modifying the constants/formulas of the patch - which btw is already what MIDI stuff is doing. And it allows for very awesome demos :)
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<roh>
exactly.. have it keep rendering, while preparing another patch in preview on the 'control head'
<Fallenou>
yes for instance
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<Fallenou>
I was more thinking at the "preview" for the moment when you do the preparation alone at home but it could be during live (but it increases memory bandwidth needs I guess)
<Fallenou>
it's even better like you said :)
<roh>
Fallenou: i could even imagine using it for light mixing or sound combined with some input surface (and then use hdmi for control head)
<Fallenou>
light mixing <= yes sure, using dmx or midi stuff, afaik it's already possible to control dmx spot
<Fallenou>
it could be part of the GUI to generate "patches" without typing a single line of code
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<lekernel>
wolfspraul: we can keep some software/gateware in common, but I don't want to be held back by legacy
<lekernel>
especially when that legacy is such a failure
<wpwrak>
Fallenou: (fnp language vs. "visual programming") you normally have to design the language accordingly. the fnp language is fairly specialized and many of its concepts don't translate easily into visual elements
<wpwrak>
Fallenou: what you could do is make parametrized patches, written in FNP, controlled by midi (or something providing similar functionality)
<wpwrak>
roh: you may even be able to do without preview. preview is more something we from the "undo generation" get used to
<wpwrak>
midi is limiting, because we need to translate between the (logical) controls the patch wants and the (physical) controls the midi device provides
<wpwrak>
so a sw surface with virtual controls the patch could request would be an improvement. sort of like the lemur.
<roh>
wpwrak: i am just explaining what i was described as by people who use gear what they really wanted
<wpwrak>
when we discussed this concept initially, i though we could integrate some tablet or "raw" touch panel in a future device. integrating a tablet is hairy because they're not designed for this kind of integration
<wpwrak>
then lekernel brought up the idea of something like the reactable, which is basically a large touch screen, but with complicated additions
<roh>
wpwrak: i still do not believe in doing direct control surfaces. too expensive mechanics, soo specific.
<wpwrak>
then i came across a short product note in c't about a monitor with touch screen. a web search yielded more. conclusion: there are commercially available touch screens that are nothing but monitor plus touch device. such a thing would be much easier to integrate, mechanically and sw-wise, than a tablet computer
<wpwrak>
roh: hence a table or monitor. that wouldn't be specific. you could do the sw development on a pc.
<wpwrak>
to mechanically integrate it physically with an M1, you would need a frame. you could make that of wood.
<wpwrak>
interfaces (vga, hdmi, usb) would all be standard
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<wpwrak>
drawbacks: afaik, only large form factors available. high cost due to size and specialization. M1 needs to do a bit more work (i.e., control GUI elements)
<wpwrak>
you could overcome these drawbacks (trading them for more difficult mechanical and sw integration) with a tablet computer
<wpwrak>
this is where is see a realistic evolutionary possibility for M1 as a VJ station. the reactable clone is just escapism.
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<roh>
wpwrak: well.. when i look at tft and similar hw prices i think its safe to say that staying out of that price downward spiral is a good idea. rather add proper keyboard and usb-midi support and a hdmi display (cheap)
<lekernel>
wpwrak: then the ipad is better
<mumptai>
for mm2?
<lekernel>
wpwrak: it's neither a reactable clone nor "escapism". it's doing the ui right.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: why not use existing hw for the ui ? the tablet idea is good. all the rest may be fun to play with but i see it more as getting in the way than contributing value
<lekernel>
which as Fallenou said will include watch the patch change as you touch controls... only you won't need any setup
<wpwrak>
lekernel: existing hw would mean m1+touch-capable monitor (like those from llyama) or m1+a tablet computer
<lekernel>
why is that idea better than an ipad?
<wpwrak>
(see the patch change) that's independent from what you use as control interface
<wpwrak>
you mean ipad for effect generation too ?
<lekernel>
look at what teenage engineering is doing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwZHfbzcjkw ... all CNC milled aluminum, tons of moving parts, and they're just a few guys
<lekernel>
been to their studio a few times when I was in Stockholm ...
<mumptai>
mhmm, anyone like motorfaders?
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