DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: | conversations are logged to and
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<Arch-TK> I bought a Nokia N900 on ebay. If I like it, I am seriously considering getting a NeoN. I am wondering though, I find 3G speeds perfectly acceptable, I don't think I would really use LTE, at the same time I don't really travel out of Europe at the moment. I'm not sure if I should get the PLS8-E or PHS-*
<Arch-TK> Anyone have any suggestions/arguments for either?
<arossdotme> how many 1gb ram neos left for pre order ;) ?
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<arossdotme> i think i splash on the buget on 1gb ram chips didnt you so there would be enough?
<arossdotme> i=you
<arossdotme> yea i think that was the case, correct if wrong
<arossdotme> and err will the kernel not have modules missing this time round ;)
<arossdotme> im hopping to make some progress with working out how to compile the ddam thing
<arossdotme> for me gta04
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<ZetaR> Arch-TK: For now, the modem selection can be changed after placing your order. Here in the US I got the LTE because I am worried about the legacy support disappearing, but I heard that it is probably not a problem in Europe. You might consider though: will you be using the Neo900 in 5-10 years and what will you be doing then? This might help determine which modem is best for you (e.g. if you decide to move, or travel more, or need faster phone access, etc.)
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<DocScrutinizer05> also latest news is: PLS8 comes with dual SIM interface (which doesn't automatically mean yet it can do dual standby, but it might receive a firmware update eventually)
<DocScrutinizer05> but yeah, it's a pretty tough decission, I wouldn't know what I'd do when I had to chose between PLS and PHS
<DocScrutinizer05> I'd miss the roaming to USA for PLS8. My solution (prolly not applicable to everybody): get both PHS8 and PLS8. I'm really sorry we can't offer this per default to everybody. Maybe PLS8-E will get an update so it can use at least some US frequencies too
<DocScrutinizer05> actually s/PHS/PXS/
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<ZetaR> DocScrutinizer05: Wasn't there a modem that was more expensive that incorporated both the US and EU frequencies?
<ZetaR> I remember someone in chat asking about it before.
<DocScrutinizer05> the PXS8 is PHS8 + CDMA2000
<DocScrutinizer05> PHS8 is pretty much worldwide
<DocScrutinizer05> PLS8 comes in two versions that are clearly not working in parts of the world they're not made for
<DocScrutinizer05> PLS8-E and PLS8-US. The US variant at least knows the international GSM frequencies 900/1800. The PLS8-E only knows those GSM frequencies and can't do US GSM (850/1900)
<DocScrutinizer05> so worst case a PLS8-E is a brick in USA
<DocScrutinizer05> see and the fine URL links there
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<ZetaR> DocScrutinizer05: I actually meant a non-offered modem combining the US and EU LTE frequencies. I may have been mistaken about it being mentioned though.
<DocScrutinizer05> we offer all we possibly can offer, even while we don't have 100% secured status for sourcing yet
<DocScrutinizer05> IOW I don't know of any such module
<DocScrutinizer05> please see **and the fine URL links there**
<ZetaR> Okay. I am looking at those. Maybe I was thinking of the PLS8-X/V, not sure.
<DocScrutinizer05> the PLS8-X came with additional chan13(?) but without voice support
<DocScrutinizer05> I noticed the latter only quite late
<DocScrutinizer05> PLS8-V is another 'useless' critter
<ZetaR> Ah, okay. I think that was it then. Sorry for my memory being a bit hazy.
<DocScrutinizer05> np :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> the PHS9 comes in a generic and 2 local variants: -J for Japan and -K for Korea
<DocScrutinizer05> PHS8 sorry
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<DocScrutinizer05> nevermind the PHS8-J/K unless you actually live in Japan or Korea, in which case we might try to get those variants for you if *you* think you need them (*we* can't evaluate)
<DocScrutinizer05> in Neo900 we'll use PHS8-P
<DocScrutinizer05> for the UMTS variant
<DocScrutinizer05> the PHS8-US/E variants are useless crippled "economy" variants of the generic PHS8
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<ZetaR> Ugh. I wish there were more international agreement on frequencies. Actually, just having the US be more sane would be a great start.
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<rjeffries> ZetaR just hoined what is context for your comment about sane frequencies
<DocScrutinizer05> it's always USA, everybody (incl US-citizens) agrees USA is a 3rd world country for wireless/cellular
<rjeffries> I am guessing LTE
<ZetaR> rjeffries: From what I understand, there is little standardization within the US on which bands are used. Each provider wants to do their own thing.
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, and they started with doing their own thing back with inception of GSM
<ZetaR> Also, apparently providers in the US aren't too keen on reverse-compatibility, from what Doc has said.
<DocScrutinizer05> whole world used 900, USA used 850. Whole world added 1800, USA 1900
<rjeffries> ZetaR not exactly. By teh way, new handsets suppoert a very large number of bands as in about 20
<ZetaR> Reminds me of soccer/football. And the imperial system.
<DocScrutinizer05> rjeffries: (about 20) that's pushing up costs and volume needed (both physical and qty of built devices)
<DocScrutinizer05> rjeffries: plus cert becomes a nightmare
<rjeffries> the challenge with Neo900 is (if I understand correctly) it must use rather old radio in order to be as open as possible
<DocScrutinizer05> no
<DocScrutinizer05> the radio is pretty much cutting edge
<ZetaR> rjeffries: I don't know a whole lot about the bands specifically (Doc is the expert). I do know that US telecommunications is falling significantly behind the rest of the world, and that cell phones in particular are pretty crazy.
<rjeffries> ZetaR This is not correct IMO: "US telecommunications is falling significantly behind the rest of the world"
<DocScrutinizer05> it's just USA invents and uses new pretty unusual frequency bands faster than anybody could develop a modem for it
<rjeffries> if you make the point that mobile data is much cheaper elsewehre including Europe and Japan etc, then, yes, I agree
<DocScrutinizer05> rjeffries: 95% would agree on that statement though - "USE: 3rd world telco" is a common notion
<DocScrutinizer05> s/USE/USA/
<rjeffries> Qualcom SOC kicks ass in terms of supporting many bands. and latest Moto phones such as Moto G and Moto X likewise. Google Nexus 6 suopprts all US bands, period
<rjeffries> I'll back away, but what qualifies US as third world? Because we are not South Korea? I agree, they offer blazingly fast service in a dense urban environment. The US is a vast area, much of it lightly populated. ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> so what? we CANNOT use a chipset and do a full cert audit in all parts of the world
<DocScrutinizer05> and you can't use a qualcom chipset either since you won't get it running without support from qualcom both field engineers and sw department, and you can't get either of both unless you buy a million chips from them
<ZetaR> I based my opinion on the lack of common development and interoperability between providers, and the push for walled gardens with protection from competition. But then, my opinion is mainly just based on reading the news and I don't really have personal knowledge of the industry like Doc and some of the other people do.
<DocScrutinizer05> nevertheless pretty much to the point
<DocScrutinizer05> plus USA is the only country I know of that basically only offers contracts with subsidized phones (really nobody knew what's a SIM, don't even mention a prepaid SIM, a few years ago), and they charge their customers for inbound minutes
<DocScrutinizer05> the whole country is split into a bazillion carriers that serve a commercial zone as large or rather small as sometimes just 30km radius
<ZetaR> On my N900 I get free unlimited internet access from AT&T because of a database error, but they charge me $0.20 per SMS (including incoming).
<MonkeyofDoom> rouuugh
<DocScrutinizer05> LOL that's 'great'. Here we frown on unsolicited inbound SMS for the mere annoyance. If some carrier would come up with a plan to charge you for inbound SMS you can't do anything to stop them comming, they would not only lose all their customers, they even would get sued
<ZetaR> I did ask them about stopping the charge for inbound SMS, and they said they could do that by blocking all SMS traffic from my phone.
<DocScrutinizer05> all hail to TTIP, so we get that nasty practices here in Europe as well
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<ZetaR> I am probably going to switch over to XMPP+OTR once I get it set up on my contacts' phones.
<rjeffries> Doc prepaid mobile has become a huge market in US. Buying handset off contract (and maybe carrier unlocked) is not uncommon.
<rjeffries> anyway, I understand your perspective. And I hope Neo900 is a success and then there is a next model that does not reply on using the old Nokia handsets from China.
<DocScrutinizer05> meanwhile that may be correct, I know. That's why I said "a few years ago..."
<rjeffries> no problem
<DocScrutinizer05> (success, next model) full ack, thanks
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm actually already planning for such next model
<DocScrutinizer05> and I already found a "eval board" already "existing": the dragonbox Pyra
<ZetaR> DocScrutinizer05: What are you going to do differently with the next model, besides a new case?
<DocScrutinizer05> see ^^
<DocScrutinizer05> OMAP5 and all the goodies it allows
<DocScrutinizer05> alas this will take another few years to complete, so don't hold your breath for STEP2
<DocScrutinizer05> if I had my way, it would also get a stantum touchscreen, and possibly even some innovative display technology, sth like maybe OLED or e-paper, or a combination of multiple technologies
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<ZetaR> That sounds pretty cool. Would you make sure to have a hardware keyboard?
<DocScrutinizer05> or sth even more weird, like e.g. retro-projector on a canvas
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, a hw kbd is a must. I hate wasting display for a vkbd, and I hate the fingerprints on display
<ZetaR> Then I will definitely look into buying one when you have the project going. I really like the N900 keyboard.
<ZetaR> When I got my N900 my two criteria were: has a hardware keyboard and an open/unlocked system.
* DocScrutinizer05 figures a display in a formfactor similar to Nokia organizer clamshell, with a canvas you could extend by pulling it out upward, and a short-distance retro-projector creating the image on such canvas. You of course also could remove the lens/mirror and use the projector to display small image on any white wall
<ZetaR> Interesting, but I'm not sure if there is enough development in that sort of system to pull it off really well.
<DocScrutinizer05> the smallest projectors meanwhile are the size of two sugarcubes
<ZetaR> (referring mainly to the canvas setup)
<DocScrutinizer05> ZetaR: yep, of course. that's just pipedreams for now, but I'll investigate all ptions
<ccnnjj> [eink] Saw the Yota phone recently. I do like what they've done with eink. I wish that were more common
<DocScrutinizer05> extending the concept of HackerBus and exploiting the very few realistic good bits in PhoneBloks (now ara?) concept, we might even end with a design consisting of 2 or 3 parts you can combine to your liking
<DocScrutinizer05> ccnnjj: e-ink is cool, alas pretty slow
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<DocScrutinizer05> maybe STEP2 might combine E-Ink for operational display with projector for watching videos etc
<ZetaR> That is actually the #1 thing I would like to see in phones: standardized module and addon tech.
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<ZetaR> With an ecosystem of modules, you could have ongoing development with multiple independent projects that produce something which can be used in combination with many different modules.
<DocScrutinizer05> ZetaR: standardization and modularization only work to a certain degree. You can't separate CPU from power from RAM, you can't separate modem from antenna, you have harsh requirements for attaching display and modem and camera to CPU etc
<DocScrutinizer05> and such ecosystem is a hoax, it won't work and won't result in development neither in any "green" aspects
<ZetaR> That is unfortunate.
<DocScrutinizer05> it didn't work for laptops, not even for desktop PCs for a long time, how could it possibly fly on a small embedded thing like a phone
<DocScrutinizer05> see modern PCs, they basically have zilch PCI (or ISA or whatever) slots anymore - too expensive, a fuly integrated mainboard is cheaper than any expansion card
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<ZetaR> You do have some degree of modularity with laptops: drives, mini-PCIe, and sometimes MXM graphics. I think it is just a matter of what kind of market you are serving. If it is one that wants cheap, throw away products, then modularity ends up being of limited use.
<ZetaR> But in general, you are probably right, since it is hard to find a niche for such a system nowadays.
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<pigeons> i'm getting Doc VIP tickets for
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<ZetaR> Very indignant person tickets?
<ZetaR> Also, systemd has jumped on the ICANN useless TLD bandwagon, apparently.
* DocScrutinizer05 slaps pigeons with a large trout
<ZetaR> DocScrutinizer05: You mean like ?
<Arch-TK> ZetaR: that bandwagon is where the party is at.
<Arch-TK> sorry, should have been "that bandwagon .is where the .party .is at.
<DocScrutinizer05> ZetaR: :-))) yes exactly
<ZetaR> Haha. I didn't know there was a .party
<ccnnjj> .at?
<Arch-TK> .vodka
<ZetaR> LOL.
<Arch-TK> finally, there's .website
<DocScrutinizer05> \o/
<Arch-TK> For times when you can't be explicit enough.
<DocScrutinizer05> .yourself
<DocScrutinizer05> (I made that up)
<ccnnjj> I like .website. It'll give Western Samoa their ccTLD back.
<jonsger> I don't like those long domains
<DocScrutinizer05> .stupid would allow for a lot of nice thing, like, hating.stupid, im.with. and so on
<ZetaR> jonsger: How about using .idontlikelongtlds then ?
<jonsger> ^^
<ccnnjj> that'd be more readable punycoded with non-breaking-spaces
<rjeffries> Doc there was a lovely Psion organizer back in the day, clamshell with physical keybaord
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<R0b0t1> DocScrutinizer05: you were referring to that modular phone thing above?
<R0b0t1> oh I see
<R0b0t1> I think it would work, but it would be far less useful than people think
<R0b0t1> you would basically have CPU block with memory in it, and storage block and screen block
<R0b0t1> and camera block and speaker block
<R0b0t1> but
<R0b0t1> every few years you still need to replace everything
<DocScrutinizer05> Ara been discussed comprehensively and ad nauseum - conclusion: no serious engineer thin ks it has any real benefits
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<R0b0t1> it would make phones repairable, which is more expensive than just replacing them a lot of the time
<R0b0t1> so yeah
<DocScrutinizer05> a single module most likely is more expensive than a complete embedded non-modular phone with same specs on the particular subsystem
<DocScrutinizer05> and for "green" the whole idea is as useful as the paperless office been
<DocScrutinizer05> the total amount of resources wasted per time per unit is much higher than with a more conservative design
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<Arch-TK> Hmm, it does seem that all manner of N900 parts are sold on ebay. If I like the Nokia N900 and decide to pay the downpayment for the Neo900 it might be worth investing in a set or two of replacement cases.
<DocScrutinizer05> makes sense
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<Pali> systemd conf? chance to meet ~poettering? haha
<Pali> ~poettering
<infobot> 'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering:, or, or see ~systemd cabal
<Pali> chance to meet him face to face :P
<sixwheeledbeast> "meet"?
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<Arch-TK> you can't meet him, you have to systemd-meet him
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<Arch-TK> They're going to announce systemd-kernel and then subsequently systemd-os
<Arch-TK> systemd-jokes aside.
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<paulk-collins> wow infobot is golden
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* DocScrutinizer05 hopes to never run into poettering unexpectedly - nor by any sort of planning
<DocScrutinizer05> ~freee
<DocScrutinizer05> everybody knows a few situations s/he would rather avoid to ever encounter, Meeting Poettering is one such situation for me
<DocScrutinizer05> I'd rather try to develop love for a wasp nest
* bencoh gives DocScrutinizer05 a crowbar and some adhesive tape
<bencoh> good luck
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<DocScrutinizer05> bencoh: I know I wouldn't feel better after any such encounter, no matter what I'd do
<DocScrutinizer05> Arguing? others tried before me, futile effort. Hurt him? Nah I feel bad to do any such thing, and I know he would too and nothing would change except maybe to the worse
<DocScrutinizer05> I rather support Devuan than meeting Poettering
<Wizzup> Any more stats on device sales? :)
<DocScrutinizer05> no changes since 2 days ago
<Wizzup> I missed it two days ago
<Wizzup> Let me see
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900DOWN PAYMENT Neo900 complete device-159
<DocScrutinizer05> NeoNDOWN PAYMENT NeoN bare board-76
<Wizzup> cool :)
<DocScrutinizer05> not really, I'd hope for twice as much
<DocScrutinizer05> there's a bulk order of at least 50 still pending, we'll see if it really comes in
<Wizzup> ah
<Wizzup> well, perhaps camp will help
<Wizzup> Considered re-posting it to slashdot with a proper message/post?
<DocScrutinizer05> I *really* hope for it
<DocScrutinizer05> not yet
<DocScrutinizer05> the whole camp is to raise
<DocScrutinizer05> awareness of flaws in contemporary phone designs and the radically different approach of Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> from my perspective
<Wizzup> :)
<Wizzup> Good
<DocScrutinizer05> others join for fun and holiday, I join for hard work
<Wizzup> I wanted to come, but am stuck here in Amsterdam with work
<DocScrutinizer05> dang!
<DocScrutinizer05> well, I'll meet some great people there who will help my age old thrive for synergy. And werner and a few others will do some awesome talks which will help a lot furthering the project
<DocScrutinizer05> strive*
<Wizzup> cool :)
<Wizzup> nn - afk