04:24 <fling> Hello. I've just read an email from aug 7 about 'Neo900 pre-order window closing, action advised!'

04:25 <fling> Do I need to perform any action if I don't have a coupon but I paid ~105 euros (?) by paypal?

04:39 <ZetaR> fling: So you donated but didn't preorder?

04:39 <ZetaR> i.e. previously.

04:41 <ZetaR> If you donated previously, you can apply it to the preorder as a voucher, and I think you get priority on finished devices when they start being manufactured.

04:42 <ZetaR> The preorders are mainly needed to determine the number of components to order, so the Neo900 isn't over or under produced.

04:43 <fling> ZetaR: where do I get the voucher from? :P

04:45 <ZetaR> Uhm, I don't know because I didn't donate before preordering, but I seem to recall DocScrutinizer05 saying that emails were sent out to donors with a code that can be used in the shop while ordering.

04:46 <ZetaR> fling: Yes, it is in the instructions here: http://neo900.org/shop-walk-through/

04:46 <ZetaR> I would check your email for it.

05:08 <fling> ZetaR: is not it a hard task to replace the motherboard of n900?

05:25 <fling> Can't I pay with paypal/bitcoin?

06:38 <Kero> fling: I believe the friendly people will help you with payments of other types, they will have to do it manually on their side, though.

08:36 <Arch-TK> If I understand correctly the Neo900 window closes at the end of this month or somewhere around then and then the NeoN is still available for preorder?

10:35 <dos1> fling: when did you pay? before the shop was opened?

10:36 <dos1> fling: you should have got an e-mail with voucher code earlier

10:50 <fling> dos1: found it!

14:31 <ZetaR> fling: (paypal/bitcoin) Paypal has been giving Neo900 UG trouble with freezing/withholding funds, so I think it is disabled (not sure if it is temporary). I have heard that Bitcoin is planned, but I don't know when it will be deployed.

14:32 <DocScrutinizer05> it's (hopefully) temporary

14:33 <DocScrutinizer05> Bitcoin is planned, our btc-savvy admins are working on it afaik

14:33 <ZetaR> fling: (replacing board) if you have the right kind of screwdriver, opening the phone and replacing the board is pretty easy.

14:33 <DocScrutinizer05> for now dos1 said he's willing to handle btc manually, on special request and as long as it's not getting too much work

14:34 <DocScrutinizer05> we will ship the NeoN with "correct" screwdriver :-)

14:37 <ZetaR> DocScrutinizer05: Any updates on the Paypal mess?

14:38 <ZetaR> Last I heard, they were demanding all sorts of silly documents from you.

14:38 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, and that pretty much blocked me. Nevertheless I'm about to give them a call this very minute, asking if they really meant what they wrote

14:40 <ZetaR> They are probably hoping you will give up so they can steal the account balance. Quite pathetic, but I have seen it before from US companies.

14:43 <ZetaR> Arch-TK: (preorder window) AFAIK, the fully assembled Neo900 is more restricted in terms of preorders because ordering the N900s is more restricted. The NeoN board is more flexible but still involves components that may become unavailable. Doc has stated that there *may* be a second run if there is enough demand, but it is possible that some of the components will need to be changed/downgraded because they are no longer available.

14:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't think they are evil, they try hard to protect their customers. So when they don't understand the company and account are non-rogue, they need to act

14:44 <DocScrutinizer05> ZetaR: ack on last statement

14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> Arch-TK: I'm about to order the N900 for mech parts. I won't order excess devices, just as many as are preordered. I managed to negotiate an option with our supplier in China to maybe get a second batch of N900 in a 2 moths or so, but it's not as guaranteed to actually happen as this first batch

14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> months*

14:46 <ZetaR> (paypal) It still seems pretty extreme. It may be that, but distorted because of e.g. liability issues. I have noticed that a lot of unreasonable behavior from companies in the USA seems to come from trying to protect themselves from liability.

14:46 <Arch-TK> ZetaR: So the preorder window for BOTH the Neo900 and NeoN are running out or just the Neo900 first and then the NeoN

14:47 <Arch-TK> because my plan has always been to just get a NeoN

14:47 <Arch-TK> But I'm currently waiting it out a bit to ensure I have and will have the funds for the whole buy.

14:47 <DocScrutinizer05> Arch-TK: for NeoN we don'T see any deadline yet

14:47 <Arch-TK> DocScrutinizer05: oh great

14:48 <DocScrutinizer05> please refer to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1480037

15:53 <ZetaR> DocScrutinizer05: In many US states Paypal has a maximum hold time: http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/pages/money_transmitters

15:55 <ZetaR> They may be required to transfer at least part of the funds if they were made from one of these states.

15:55 <DocScrutinizer05> ZetaR: yep, but that doesn't apply to them freezing the account for "evaluation purposes"

15:56 <ZetaR> Really? For my state (Florida) the linked to law says "Shall, in the normal course of business, ensure that money transmitted is available to the designated recipient within 10 business days after receipt."

15:56 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway I'm about to contact them and finally sort it out. It actually didn't hurt until they started messing up payments by customers

15:56 <DocScrutinizer05> **in the normal course of business**

15:56 <DocScrutinizer05> we got same here: 2 days

15:57 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't apply to frozen accounts

15:58 <DocScrutinizer05> actually the payments are "available to us", just we can'T do anything with them right now

15:58 <DocScrutinizer05> which still doesn't hurt much since this isn't our only account

15:59 <DocScrutinizer05> what hurts is that recently they broke payment processor for our shop so customers get an error message when using PP

15:59 <ZetaR> Hmm. I see.

15:59 <DocScrutinizer05> and I've been busy since they did, until today

15:59 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm just about to sort it out this very moment we speak

16:00 <ZetaR> Good luck with it. If a call from a payer/customer would be helpful too, let me know.

16:00 <DocScrutinizer05> thanks :-)

16:01 <DocScrutinizer05> when they don't play nice, I will ask *all* customers to give PP such call ;-D

16:02 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm providing info as good as we got any, and just can't satisfy some of the more weird meaningless requests they asked

16:04 <ZetaR> There is really no reason for them to ask for those things. IDK, but it sounds to me like they are trying to push you around.

16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly that's their SOP to scare fraudulent users

16:06 <DocScrutinizer05> I won't hand out some stuff they asked for, unless they sign a NDA for it

16:07 <DocScrutinizer05> invoices from our suppliers. Pfff really now?

16:08 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess that's a standrad text template

16:09 <ZetaR> It may be that the person you are dealing with hasn't been given the autonomy to waive certain procedures when it is not reasonable to apply them.

16:10 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, of course

16:10 <DocScrutinizer05> all this is prolly a highly automated procedure

16:10 <ZetaR> AFAIK, the usual procedure is to ask for their manager in that case.

16:11 <DocScrutinizer05> I first give them a benevolent cooperating mail/fax

16:12 <ZetaR> Yeah, sometimes it's difficult to be both nice and not get screwed by stupid procedure.

18:58 <pigeons> off-topic fun https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

19:17 <Pali> pigeons: too late, we had discussion about it days ago :-(

19:21 <pigeons> ah well

21:01 <DocScrutinizer05> ROTFL!!!

21:01 <DocScrutinizer05> $ machinectl shell

21:01 <DocScrutinizer05> Connected to the local host. Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session.

21:02 <DocScrutinizer05> couldn't they come up with something a little bit *more* idiotic please?

21:03 <DocScrutinizer05> even original Hayes AT had a way to devine escape-char and guard-time, to escape from data mode into command mode

21:03 <DocScrutinizer05> define*

21:04 <DocScrutinizer05> but hey, Hayes is sooooo old, Poettering wasn't even born back when

21:04 <DocScrutinizer05> so how could he possibly know how to implement such stuff correctly?

21:09 <ZetaR> He makes himself such an easy target. Makes me wonder how he gets any of his stuff adopted. Probably spends his time doing project politics rather than spending time on good development.

21:10 <Wizzup> A lot of politics are involved, yeah

21:16 <DocScrutinizer05> and wtf is >>The Linux Homefront Project << anyway. sounds nasty in itself

21:17 <jonsger1> you should link this video https://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm on the homepage

21:17 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, I already asked our admins for that

21:18 <dos1> on it!

21:18 <DocScrutinizer05> :-)

23:43 <hellekin> $ machinectl shell

23:43 <hellekin> Unknown operation shell.

23:43 <hellekin> DocScrutinizer05: looks like... API changed?

23:45 <hellekin> oh, maybe I'm running 224

23:46 <hellekin> huh... How is 'machinectl shell' and improvement over 'su'. Do people really like to type that much?

23:46 <hellekin> root@.host ???

23:46 <ZetaR> "machinectl shell" has probably been deprecated so they don't have to deal with reverse-compatibility.