flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.01.0 http://bit.ly/1851A3R | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<zRecursive> How to understand "let fv e = remove_and_uniq S.empty (fv e)" ?
<zRecursive> is fv recursive ?
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<thorsten`> sounds like a previous definition of fv is overwritten by a new one
<thorsten`> look for a previous "let fv ..."
<zRecursive> thorsten`: is it recursive here ?
<thorsten`> if there is no "rec" keyword near the "let", then: no.
<thorsten`> zRecursive: look for a previous definition of fv.
<zRecursive> no "rec" here, but what does (fv e) mean ?
<zRecursive> let rec fc_exp = ... and and fv = function ...
<thorsten`> (fv e) means: call fv with e and pass its return value as a second parameter to remove_and_uniq
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<zRecursive> which fv does it call ?
<thorsten`> the previously defined fv
<zRecursive> then it is fv in "let rec fc_exp = ... and fv = function ..." ?
<thorsten`> probably that fv in "fv = function.."
<zRecursive> The next time calling fv will call fv in "let fv e = ..." ? so the previous fv is overwritten ?
<thorsten`> yes
<zRecursive> i see, thx
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<ggole> Overwritten isn't right: it's rebound
<ggole> That is, references to the previous fv will still refer to that.
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<thorsten`> yeah right. or better: it shadows the previous definition, like a function parameter that shadows a global variable
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<ggole> Yes, shadow is a good way to explain it.
<zRecursive> After shadowing, can i call the previous one ?
<zRecursive> i guess the previous one will disappear forever ?
<zRecursive> so overwritten is right
<adrien> no
<adrien> let a = 42 in
<adrien> let b = a in
<adrien> let a = 0 in
<adrien> ...
<adrien> the only thing that shadowing does is make you lose your current "way" to access the variable
<adrien> for instance, if I:
<adrien> let compare = prerr_endline "zombie rabbits are attacking!"
<adrien> everything that has referenced "compare" before will get the usual definition from Pervasives
<adrien> moreover, you can still access it in new contexts through Pervasives.compare
<thorsten`> maybe this example explains it:
<thorsten`> let a = 23 in let x = ( let a = a + 19 in a ) in (a,x) ;;
<thorsten`> - : int * int = (23, 42)
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<zRecursive> ok, i see now
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<ggole> A better way to think about it is that after shadowing there is no *name* for the previous binding.
<ggole> The value still exists: you could call it, if made available in some way (such as a return value).
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<zRecursive> ggole: yeah
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<wwilly> bonjour
<Thooms> o/
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<tcpc> hi
<tcpc> how can i load the syntax extension of lwt in utop?
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<tcpc> tried "#camlp4o" then #require "lwt.syntax" but it doesn't work
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<gasche> tcpc: did you run (#use "topfind";;) before any of this?
<gasche> it may be in your .ocamlinit already though
<tcpc> yep, i did it
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<adi__> hi
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<hnrgrgr> tcpc: (>>=) is value, you don't need 'lwt.syntax'. Just (#require "lwt";;) and (open Lwt).
<hnrgrgr> The syntax extension is for "lwt x = ... in "
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<tcpc> hnrgrgr: what a stupid misunderstanding
<tcpc> thanks a lot
<adi__> http://pastebin.com/YZetWhaA I understand how OCaml realized type of function f and g, but I don't get it how it was done for curry... Can anyone explain me this? for me it looks like the order was reversed.
<Drup> why do you thing so ?
<Drup> adi__: f is called on a tuple
<Drup> (I'm talking about the f in the curry function)
<Drup> so it's normal that it takes a tuple and returns something
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<adi__> my way of thinking: let f x y = x+y equals let f = function x-> function y-> x+y so now: + is operator for two ints hence x+y is type of int and x and y have to be type of int. So for the curry: let curry = function f -> function x -> function y -> f (x,y); and now i assume that it should be the same way as it was for f so: 'a -> 'b -> 'c -> (and because f takes a tuple) 'a * 'b -> c that is how i thing
<Drup> you got it reversed =)
<Drup> f is *taking* a tuple, not returning one
<adi__> hm... but on the other hand: ('a * 'b ->c) == type of f , and then 'a = type of x and 'b = type of y ?
<mrvn> adi__: you are expecting curry to return a function but you are returning a value.
<Drup> adi__: yes
<adi__> oh my ;) now it is so obvious :D
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<adi__> now i get it. thanks a lot ;)
<pippijn> gasche: does ('a * 'b -> 'c) -> ('a -> 'b -> 'c) have exactly one inhabitant?
<mrvn> pippijn: ocaml drops the last ()
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<gasche> pippijn: yes
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<gasche> pippijn: this is precisely the kind of situations were I think unique-inhabitant would be most useful: glue code between strongly-typed functions
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<gasche> if you are writing a strongly-parametric function (say in a FRP library or whatever), and you don't remember whether it's (f a b) or (f b a), just use (? f a b) and let (?) be uniquely-inferred to either identity or flip
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<Drup> Agda holes <3
<Drup> gasche: can I have agda case decomposition for Christmas too ?
<adrien> sure, sure
* adrien pats Drup
<adrien> oh, look outside, a rainbow!
<rks`> Drup: what do you mean?
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<Drup> rks`: write "match x with truc -> ?", put cursor on "?", press button, split the truc according to the type
<Drup> repeat for nested pattern if necessary
<rks`> right
<rks`> well
<rks`> hopefully we'll have that in merlin someday
<Drup> yep
<rks`> (says the guy who didn't write a single line of code in the past few months)
<jpdeplaix> :D
<gasche> reading history from top to bottom, I was going to say "ask the merlin devs", but I see they reacted already
<rks`> :p
<def-lkb> :D
<gasche> def-lkb: have you made progress cleaning up the merlin stuff?
<rks`> yes
<rks`> and he even started writing a blog post
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<def-lkb> gasche: I am making progress on merlin itself, not on the ocaml part.
<def-lkb> gasche: I will submit the ocamllex patch first, after that I am not sure what you would like to see upstreamed
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<jpdeplaix> gasche: if you have time, don't forget to handle the macaque PRs (at least the one for OASIS and the fix for unions)
<jpdeplaix> IN and arrays are not ready yet I think
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<gasche> I'm working on format+GADTs right now
<gasche> def-lkb: yeah I wondered about the merlin patches
<gasche> did you email me about the ocamllex patch, and did I not answer?
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<def-lkb> gasche: indeed you did not answer :), but I can submit directly on mantis (or wait for the whole infrastructure to be switched to github :D?)
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<gasche> I was in deadline mode
<adrien> style question:
<gasche> I'll have a quick look
<adrien> I have the following line which is 100 chars: let create_process_sync ?(stdout=Unix.stdout) ?(stderr=Unix.stderr) ?(env=Unix.environment ()) a =
<adrien> would you reformat it?
<gasche> yes
<adrien> and if so, how? :P
<gasche> I'd cut after the function name
<def-lkb> align ?
<gasche> and then format the argument freely, indented against the function name start
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<adrien> one per line or more?
<gasche> then "=" aligned with "let" starting position
<gasche> more if you wish
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<adrien> so
<adrien> let create_process_sync
<adrien> ?(stdout=Unix.stdout)
<adrien> ..
<adrien> =
<adrien> ?
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<gasche> no, arguments should be argumented strictly more than the start of the function name
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<adrien> indent the args not the '='?
<rks`> yes
<gasche> yes
<adrien> thanks, looks good to me )
<adrien> :)
<gasche> you need the "=" unindented to make a visual break between the arguments and the function body
<adrien> (well, turns out I'm going to change the ?env arg so the line won't be as long anymore but I've had other times with long lines :) )
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<adrien> I was a bit worried it would look out of place but I find it looks like with "module X : sig ... end = struct ... end"
<gasche> (I think it would be fine to indent the arguments at the start of the function name, rather than strictly more to the right, but then it's about taste)
<gasche> another thing
<gasche> the semantics of when default values for optional argument is not that clear
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<gasche> if (Unix.environment ()) must not be shared between call, I'd define it from (?env) as an option in the body
<gasche> *calls
<gasche> when .. are initialized
<adrien> well, that one went away
<adrien> but I am building a value for create_process_env, not changing the environment of the currently-running process
<pippijn> gasche: I don't know if I like the (?) thing
<pippijn> gasche: but let flip : ('a -> 'b -> 'c) -> 'b -> 'a -> 'c = ?
<pippijn> that would be nice
<pippijn> where you encode logic in the type system
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<gasche> adrien: it depends on whether the value you build is mutable
<gasche> initializers should be correct if they behaved like C static variables
<gasche> +even
<adrien> you mean that using default values to create fresh values on each call is discourage?d?
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<adrien> besides debian, which linux distribution doesn't have a 4.0 in something released and stable?
<adrien> I guess rhel and its derivatives too but I guess these are even worse
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<adrien> btw, I've been working on a small "script" and experimenting by running it as:
<adrien> time sudo ocaml unix.cma str.cma ./win-builds/build-packages.ml 1.4 cross_toolchain flexdll
<adrien> (yeah, as root while experimenting)
<adrien> but I get: (Program not linked with -g, cannot print stack backtrace)
<adrien> is there something I haven't noticed or is it simply impossible
<adrien> ?
<adrien> (impossible to get the backtraces)
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<adrien> and just found an issue in my code:
<adrien> | s -> try int_of_string s with _ -> 0
<adrien> with Not_found -> 0
<adrien> ='(
<adrien> actually, should work as expected
<companion_cube> why don't you put "#load" and #require in your .ml file?
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<adrien> it is meant to be compiled, I think
<adrien> argh, disregard my issue
<adrien> basically I call a log function and wanted to print a backtrace
<adrien> but in the log function there is an exception is raised and caught but the backtrace I get is for that exception and only that exception
<adrien> 3and it's get_callstack which I wanted
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<gasche> I'm wondering whether the pattern-synonyms post would be appropriate for r/haskell
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<companion_cube> implement it first, so you can mock them
<companion_cube> ;)
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<orbitz> hr
<orbitz> m
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<nisstyre> why doesn't ocaml use uniqueness types at all? I get that it's impure but it could've been pure and still had mutation, right?
<ggole> It's probably simpler to just have mutation without regard to types.
<ggole> It's not as if OCaml's type system is wasting away for lack of complexity.
<nisstyre> ggole: yes, but less safe and less optimizable
<nisstyre> just curious why nobody thought to add them
<nisstyre> maybe it would be too hard to fit in?
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<nisstyre> Clean has had them for quite a while and now Rust
<adrien> "pragmatic"! (I was looking for this word one or two days ago :P )
<nisstyre> (which people are actually in danger of using)
<ggole> I think that Clean and Rust were designed from the start to take that approach.
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<nisstyre> yeah that's true
<ggole> Bolting them on after the fact might not produce a clean design
<nisstyre> ggole: I think Haskell bolted on monads after the fact
<ggole> And you might want to make some changes to the runtime to take advantage, etc.
<nisstyre> yeah, the compiler would have to be changed significantly
<ggole> I suspect that there's little advantage for the programs (like Coq) that OCaml is primarily intended to support, too.
<Drup> I wonder where does this "ocaml is done to support Coq" thingy
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<dsheets_> Drup, xleroy?
<ggole> Xavier made some comments that indicated that he thought that way
<nisstyre> ggole: Clean is the closest language I've found that I really like but sadly there's almost no libraries I can find, so I'm thinking about using OCaml more instead
<nisstyre> and just dealing with the fact that you can write impure code
<ggole> I like being able to write impure code without fuss.
<nisstyre> well, Clean doesn't have a way to extend the language easily like camlp4 I guess
<adrien> hmmm
<nisstyre> ggole: I like it as well
<Drup> dsheets_: it seems highly silly to me :/
<adrien> I think it's that _today_ ocaml doesn't really get funding but coq does
<dsheets_> Drup, why? ml was for lcf theorem proving, no?
<Drup> dsheets_: "was"
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<dsheets_> Drup, ya, so it makes sense for the creators of languages like this to say "i made this language/compiler because i wanted to write this program"
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<nisstyre> dsheets_: or they just wanted to see if they could write the compiler
<nisstyre> and then nobody ever bothered to write much else in it
<dsheets_> sure, some languages are like that. but ml/ocaml were explicitly designed with theorem provers in mind, afaik
<nisstyre> sadly that's what a lot of researchy languages feel like
<ggole> You wouldn't write a compiler and then maintain it for 15 years "just to see", that's crazy.
<dsheets_> of course, the scope of applicability has since increased substantially...
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<nisstyre> ggole: in that case you'd probably be using it to teach CS 101 or something
<nisstyre> e.g. Clean
<ggole> Caml light was used for teaching a bit, I think.
<adrien> it still is
<adrien> (unfortunately)
<ggole> As long as the kiddies are properly indoctrinated in FP, it's OK.
* ggole coughs
<nisstyre> Racket was explicitly designed for teaching but somehow ended up being fairly practical
<dsheets_> is racket much different from mitscheme?
<nisstyre> mit scheme is probably like a subset of Racket
<nisstyre> but Racket has a lot more stuff
<nisstyre> and it supports adding non s-expression based syntax
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<nisstyre> e.g. there is a Datalog language for it
<dsheets_> as sugar? i know it has a lot of extra stuff like contracts and optional types
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<ggole> Racket has evolved into its own language now, more or less: hence the change of name.
<nisstyre> dsheets_: no, at the top of your Racket file you put #lang foo
<nisstyre> and it interprets the file depending on that
<dsheets_> but i thought it was mostly a stdlib collection around an r6rs or sth scheme
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<nisstyre> #lang racket being the most common one
<ggole> In addition to all the additions I think it differs from scheme in some respects, such as immutable cons cells
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<nisstyre> ggole: yeah set-cdr! and set-car! don't exist
<nisstyre> they're relegated to their own library and separate type
<ggole> They have mcons for making mutable conses, or some such thing.
<ggole> Right.
<nisstyre> yes
<dsheets_> ok, sorry for the sidetracking
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<erider> does anyone have an example 2d game using ocaml+sdl
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