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<nrlucaroni>
in ocamlfind, is there a reason when installing that a file that exists and is mentioned in the output to be installed at a particular location would not be? It isn't installing a c-library file (.a file), but everything else is fine.
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<wwilly>
bonjour
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<gasche>
that's because you counter-intuitively decided to remove useful content from the README.org, which serves as public webpage for a github project
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<Sfiv>
pippijn, so what exactly is the reason that OCaml and ML and Haskell can have encapsulated seperately compiled modules but C and C++ can't hav eit?
<def-lkb>
Sfiv: aren't translation unit some kind of encapsulated separately compiled modules for C/C++ ?
<pippijn>
Sfiv: am I the person to ask this?
<pippijn>
Sfiv: C and C++ can have it, and C++ is probably getting it at some point
<Sfiv>
pippijn, you seem smart enough, I ask this Sfiv but he's clearly retarded
<pippijn>
there is a proposal
<gasche>
OCaml/ML were well-designed from a modularity point of view
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<gasche>
Haskell, not so well, but it's getting better
<Sfiv>
pippijn, then why doesn't it have it? as far as I know the major problem with C and C++ is having to recompile half the universe every time
<gasche>
on the contrary, C's model of software composition is "including text files inside text files"
<Sfiv>
gasche, well I mean, is there a theoretical limitation to the runtime model that stops it from happening
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<Sfiv>
Yeah, I know, so I was wondering if that had some theoretical reason to enable the runtime model
<pippijn>
no
<pippijn>
well, a little bit
<Sfiv>
Then why on earth don't they have it already then?
<pippijn>
templates make it kind of impossible
<pippijn>
and inline functions make it hard
<Sfiv>
Surely it can't be Ÿeh, we didn't think of it or we didn't find it important", especially with C++ which likes to basically add all the things anyone would find remotely useful to the point of nothing working any more.
<Sfiv>
Well, OCaml can inline functions across seperately compiled modules right?
<pippijn>
yes
<Sfiv>
Haskell can too I believe
<Sfiv>
So what stops C++?
<pippijn>
C++ can also do it now
<def-lkb>
(pfff)
<pippijn>
with LTO
<Sfiv>
Why couldn't it first do it, what's the theoretical limitation?
<pippijn>
there is no theoretical one
<pippijn>
as far as I know
<Sfiv>
Then why didn't the C++ standard include it? Is it just a case of "We didn't think it was important"?
<Sfiv>
And if the standard didn't then surely implementations would have since it's just very useful?
<pippijn>
it's language evolution
<Sfiv>
Yeah but modules have been around since like almost half a century and anyone would say they are indespensible to software development
<Sfiv>
surely C10 would've included it if they could?
<pippijn>
1) not very important
<pippijn>
2) too much breakage
<pippijn>
if you write code with modules, you need a compiler that supports it
<pippijn>
no code will be written until ~all compilers support it
<pippijn>
and compilers are not going to implement it with no code existing that uses it
<Sfiv>
Well, C99 added VLA's.
<Sfiv>
And C++'s standard adds things far more convoluted than variable length arrays all the time
<Sfiv>
than modules*
<pippijn>
Sfiv: and barely any C code uses it
<pippijn>
unless they explicitly target gcc (and recently clang)
<Sfiv>
Which is my point, they still added it to the standard
<pippijn>
C++ is actually evolving
<Kakadu>
Can I replace `ocamlmklib` invocation by `ar` in ocamlbuild?
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<Kakadu>
But If I can link .o into native code without .clib file it can probably solve my problem too
<pippijn>
Sfiv: C++ added valarray to the standard, nobody uses it, they learnt from this
<pippijn>
Sfiv: so now everybody is conservative in adding new features
<pippijn>
Sfiv: export template was a mistake, too
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<Sfiv>
So why didn't they add modules before VLA's?
<Sfiv>
Seems more useful than VLA's to me.
<Sfiv>
C++ doesn't need VLA's anyway, std::vector does the same
<pippijn>
C++ doesn't have VLAs, as far as I know
<pippijn>
did they add it?
<Sfiv>
You just said they did
<Sfiv>
Maybe you meant C there
<pippijn>
std::valarray != VLA
<Sfiv>
Ohh
<Sfiv>
I thought valarray was just another term for variable length array
<pippijn>
makes sense :)
<pippijn>
but no
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<Sfiv>
pippijn, they are basically telling me at C that it doesn't have modules because that would make C hard to implement while C should be implementable as easily as possible
<Sfiv>
Which still doesn't explain C++ though
<pippijn>
and C++ will probably get them
<pippijn>
there are just priorities
<pippijn>
and modules are not a priority
<Sfiv>
How can modules not be a prorioty.
<Sfiv>
I am verily confused
<pippijn>
maybe you find them very important
<pippijn>
but C++ coders have been fine with the simple "header file is my module" approach
<pippijn>
well, header+impl file
<Sfiv>
Well
<Sfiv>
if you find them important as well, then that is enough for me
<Sfiv>
Only your opinion and that of my dog matters.
<pippijn>
I would like to have modules, but they are not terribly important to me
<pippijn>
modules in the ocaml way are impossible due to circular dependencies that exist in virtually all C++ codebases
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<Sfiv>
Well, there's a good theoretical reason.
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<pippijn>
but java has modules (kind of), and it solves the problem by compiling dependent things at the same time
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<Sfiv>
pippijn, I was kind of hoping you would side with me though.
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<Drup>
companion_cube: extension point is already in the trunk, afaik
<companion_cube>
hmmmm
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<pippijn>
I would like to have runtime types
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<gasche>
well, sheijk and companion_cube, integration of something like ocaml-ty is also up to you
<gasche>
(simply mailing caml-list asking for directions and what can be done to help could... help)
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<companion_cube>
gasche: I'm not familiar enough with the compiler's internal todeal with something like this :/
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<companion_cube>
gasche: otoh i'm looking at making BatIO monadic ;)
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<sheijk>
gasche: my impression from the mailing list discussions was that implicits died because they where not generally liked and not because of missing man-power, though
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<companion_cube>
sheijk: I think it's again a project that ran out of funding (even for 1 person) and thus didn't go through integration in trunk
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<companion_cube>
just to check: the type system could'nt allow a function f: (module Foo) -> Foo.t -> Foo.t ?
<companion_cube>
where Foo has a signature with type t
<companion_cube>
(context: Foo would be a monad instance)
<jpdeplaix>
AFAIK, no
<jpdeplaix>
you have to use a functor
<companion_cube>
that's what I thought
<companion_cube>
because otherwise it's dependent typing
<axiles>
you can have f: (module Foo with type t = 'a) -> 'a -> 'a
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<ben_m>
Is there a function composition function/operator in OCaml(/Core)?
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<companion_cube>
there is in batteries, ben_m
<companion_cube>
axiles: yes, however here the type is parametrized, so that would require rank-2 types :/
<ben_m>
companion_cube: That's instead of Core, isn't it?
<companion_cube>
ben_m: hmmmm, it's rare to use both
<companion_cube>
you can write one if you need it
<ben_m>
Well yeah :)
<companion_cube>
also, the |> operator may be useful in many cases where composition is
<ben_m>
Ooh batteries has tons of convenient operators
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<rks`>
ben_m: Fn.compose (in core)
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<ben_m>
Ah, thanks.
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<nrlucaroni>
I've created and installed a package via ocamlfind and when linking against the package via ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind the compilation options that are expanded include both libphyloc.a and -lphyloc. Why would that be the case?
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<nrlucaroni>
(it fails since libphyloc.a is expected to be local, once removed the compilation is successful)
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<thorsten`>
how can i enforce a function to have a specific type? (in haskell i do for example: f :: a -> b -> a \n f x y = x)
<Drup>
"let f (x : a) (y : b) : a = x" or "let f : a -> b -> a = fun x y -> x"
<Drup>
(or a mix of both)
<companion_cube>
or write a .mli file
<Drup>
companion_cube: not exactly the same
<companion_cube>
no, but it works
<thorsten`>
i don't want the it to be "global"
<companion_cube>
ok then, like Drup said
<def-lkb>
Drup: you forget (type a) (type b) at the beginning of the signature
<def-lkb>
forgot*
<Drup>
def-lkb: I forgot the ' before the type, actually
<Drup>
(you can do it with type abstraction, but I wouldn't advice it for general purpose)
<thorsten`>
thanks, it seems to work
<def-lkb>
Drup: yep, but in this case the meaning is different
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<ben_m>
Is there a way to get the type of an operator in utop? I can just write `List.map;;` and that works, but not so for operators.
<whitequark>
(+);;
<ben_m>
I did that
<ben_m>
utop # (|>);;
<ben_m>
Error: Failure: "|> must be applied to two arguments"
<companion_cube>
fun x y -> x|>y;;
<whitequark>
fascinating, it actually works for (+), but not for (|>)
<ben_m>
Maybe it's because I have a bunch of directives in .ocamlinit that Real World OCaml told me to put there
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<rks`>
N.B. utop's #typeof works on modules (shows their sig) and types (shows their definition, if they're not abstract) too
<rks`>
ben_m: don't think so
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<ben_m>
I should probably keep reading that book anyways instead of trying to force Haskell habits onto OCaml
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<def-lkb>
rks`: actually, if I enter (|>) after typing prolog suggested by RWO in utop
<def-lkb>
the process terminates with message "Fatal error: exception Loc.Exc_located(_, _) Raised at file "map.ml", line 117, characters 16-25 "
<def-lkb>
So, yes, core.syntax must introduce some syntax extension that tries to rewrite |>
<rks`>
def-lkb: but that's not the error ben_m has.
<rks`>
I have the same as his, and I don't have "the core prolog"
<ben_m>
rks`: Taking out core.syntax does fix it though
<rks`>
Oh.
<def-lkb>
rks`: with utop 1.8 I get the failure, with utop 1.10 I get ben_m's message
<rks`>
Ok
<def-lkb>
Without core.syntax, I get correct answer
<ben_m>
Doesn't seem too important if you have #typeof anyways
<def-lkb>
Yeps
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<ben_m>
Good night!
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<nrlucaroni>
How can I control how library packages (cmxa files) passed to ocamlopt expand their arguments to gcc or other tools?
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<companion_cube>
oh dear
<companion_cube>
no idea
<adrien>
nrlucaroni: the real question is why do you want to do that?
<adrien>
and control = check or = modify?
<nrlucaroni>
heh. yeah. a package i built w/ c code is expanding to include a phyloc.a file and the -lphyloc option. the .a causes the compilation to fail.
<adrien>
hmmm
<adrien>
if the C stubs are in phyloc.a then the package is borked
<adrien>
the files should be named phyloc_whatever.* (typically: phyloc_stubs)
<adrien>
the C part of stubs goes into .a file usually so you should expect one
<adrien>
(actually I'm not sure the package is borked but it looks suspicious)
* adrien
-> bed
<nrlucaroni>
heh, people just call them *_stubs in their myocamlbuild.ml file, i don't believe it's necessary.
<nrlucaroni>
when I compiled by hand and removed the .a file, it worked and executed properly, so i don't think it's borked. but i do believe I have compiled it incorrectly.
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<adrien>
the one thing to avoid is a .ml and a .c file with the same base name
<adrien>
that will definitely cause issues
<nrlucaroni>
yeah, I did discover that confusing case. I think I'm beyond that now though.