flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.01.0 http://bit.ly/1851A3R | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<UltimateGOTO> def-lkb, hmm "In Objective CAML, the order of evaluation of arguments is not specified. As it happens, today all implementations of Objective CAML evaluate arguments from left to right. All the same, making use of this implementation feature could turn out to be dangerous if future versions of the language modify the implementation."
<UltimateGOTO> Thjat. s from caml.inria.fr
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<Drup> the book is quite old already, and the answer is in the quote
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<gasche> UltimateGOTO: this book was written in 2001
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<UltimateGOTO> gasche, yes, so I gather, hmm
<UltimateGOTO> Make way for innovation
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<gasche> it's actually still a pretty good reference
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<UltimateGOTO> I wonder though, if && and || can be considered operators then why not ;.
<UltimateGOTO> Can you also pass (&&) to functions like that?
<UltimateGOTO> utop # id (&&);;
<UltimateGOTO> - : bool -> bool -> bool = <fun>
<UltimateGOTO> Wow, funky
<UltimateGOTO> I wonder how the runtime manages to do that
<UltimateGOTO> doesn't that take a significant performance drain having to with every function call check if it's a normal function or a special one?
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<companion_cube> o/
<pippijn> hi
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<companion_cube> hi pippijn
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<def-lkb> UltimateGOTO: once reified as a function, (&&) is evaluated like any function (this is equivalent to fun (a b -> a && b))
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<def-lkb> no runtime check, it's just a function. it's a && b as a syntactic construction which evaluates left-to-right and is subject to short-circuit
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<wwilly> bonjour
<def-lkb> (oops, you should read (fun a b -> a && b) ofc :))
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<companion_cube> \o wwilly
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<UltimateGOTO> def-lkb, oh yeah, that's a good point
<UltimateGOTO> It can obviously just be fun a b -> a && b
<UltimateGOTO> Wait no, it can't.
<UltimateGOTO> Oh wait, now I see what you are trying to say
<UltimateGOTO> Yeah, get it.
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<companion_cube> (||) true (let _ = print_endline "foo" in false);; doesn't print
<companion_cube> (id (||)) true (let _ = print_endline "foo" in false);; prints
<flux> also let (||)=(||) in (||) true (let _ = print_endline "foo" in false);; prints
<flux> so a fun trick to do to future maintainers of the code
<flux> hide let (||) = (||) in some common.ml
<UltimateGOTO> Ahahahah
<UltimateGOTO> I'm never too sure what to think about such behaviour.
<def-lkb> Syntactic trick, not very elegant… better than nothing :)
<UltimateGOTO> I would probably myself opt to make && || hardcoded syntax like if and force people to use fun a b -> a && b to use them as functions but that's just I.
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<UltimateGOTO> Can you also use (if) to reify that as function?
<UltimateGOTO> ahh, apparently not
<companion_cube> well, you can let ite a b c = if a then b else c
<companion_cube> but both branches will be evaluated
<companion_cube> (or you can use lazy...)
<UltimateGOTO> I always wondered why if in Haskell is special syntax.
<UltimateGOTO> There's like no reason.
<flux> because syntax is nice :)
<UltimateGOTO> No it's not.
<UltimateGOTO> Special syntax should be kept to a bare minimum, we should all lgo to S-expressions anyway
<UltimateGOTO> (if cond then else)
<companion_cube> well, sounds like you want a typed lisp ^^
<companion_cube> but I don't know of any good syntax for pattern matching in lisp
<flux> there is no. because there is no syntax :)
<UltimateGOTO> Well, actually S-expressions are pretty bad for a hindly-milner based language.
<UltimateGOTO> S-expressions were designed for languages where most functions are n-ary of course.
<UltimateGOTO> Imagine having to type (((f a) b) c)
<flux> would it be so bad if that just worked automatically?
<flux> (((f a) b) c) works in ocaml, all they would need to do is to make (f a b c) work as well :)
<UltimateGOTO> Well, ( ... ) in S expressions sin't grouping
<UltimateGOTO> (a) is not the same as a, it's what C calls a()
<flux> or it could be a language where tuples are the common way to call functions. (f (, a b c))
<UltimateGOTO> But because everything is praefix you don't need grouping any more so there is no grouping operator
<UltimateGOTO> Well, what calls , then? , is itself a type constructor
<UltimateGOTO> A function of 3 arguments, so yeah.
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<flux> I don't see how it would be a lot more 'magic' to convert an n-ary call to a series of unitary calls than it is to have the current variable number of arguments everywhere.
<UltimateGOTO> It isn't magic, I'm just saying that S-expressions loose their use if functions are not variadic.
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<companion_cube> UltimateGOTO: I don't think type inference works well with variadic functions
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<UltimateGOTO> companion_cube, well, typed scheme has type inference, but it's not exactly a hindly milner type system you're dealing with.
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<companion_cube> ah, explaining why Lwt is cool to colleagues... ^^
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<companion_cube> poke hnrgrgr
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<MG_> According to http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/libref/Num.html I should be able to obtain two special num values, namely infinity (1/0) and undefined (0/0)
<MG_> However, I unfortunately fail to achieve this in toplevel
<MG_> I type:
<MG_> open Num;;
<MG_> #load "nums.cma";;
<MG_> (num_of_int 0)//(num_of_int 0);;
<MG_> and what I get is
<MG_> Exception: Failure "create_ratio infinite or undefined rational number".
<MG_> Why so?
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<companion_cube> interesting, I have no idea
<companion_cube> I never saw those two constants
<companion_cube> MG_: by the way, you might prefer to use the third-party Zarith library, which provides a cleaner, more powerful interface and uses gmp
<companion_cube> it's on opam
<MG_> unfortunately... I may not use it... at least on this task I'm trying to solve now
<MG_> I'm limited to ocaml standard library, and there's not much I can do about this
<MG_> I am also limited to ocaml version 3.12.1
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<companion_cube> awwww
<companion_cube> is it an academic exercise?
<MG_> Is it possible that this is the reason why I can't get these two special num constants?
<MG_> indeed...
<flux> well, it fails for my ocaml 4.01.0 as well
<flux> maybe it's a bug :-o
<MG_> rats...
<MG_> too bad...
<MG_> well, thank you anyway
<MG_> :)
<companion_cube> or maybe the documentation is out-of-date
<flux> so bug :)
<companion_cube> MG_: if you have time, it would be very nice to fill a bug report on mantis
<MG_> wow... this will be my very first bug report ever...
<MG_> i feel honoured!
<companion_cube> ^^
<flux> Ratio.create_ratio Big_int.zero_big_int Big_int.zero_big_int fails similarly, but I don't know how Num should take care of those two cases, so that could be by design
<flux> actually I don't know how 'Num' is supposed to report the infinite or undefined values, so companion_cube is probably right (ie. it's a feature that got removed, docs not updated)
<companion_cube> I think it's probably a documentation error, but mention all possibilities in the report
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<testAcc> hello, anyone know haskell here?
<companion_cube> well, that may not be the best chan for it
<companion_cube> if you have a haskell question, you'd get more help on #haskell
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<MG_> can be?
<MG_> companion_cube: ^
<companion_cube> looks good!
<MG_> Thanks for your opinion, Sir.
<MG_> well, g2g
<MG_> bye
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<dRbiG> hello
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<dRbiG> i did my homework and managed to write: https://github.com/drbig/wol/blob/master/wol.ml (this is a part of my fun/learning effort - https://github.com/drbig/wol)
<dRbiG> I'd very much appreciate comment on the OCaml version, linked above
<dRbiG> in terms of style and approach
<Drup> stupid stylistic remark : you don't need the ;;
<dRbiG> not any of those present?
<Drup> you never need ;;
<dRbiG> so does the indent matter then?
<Drup> no
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<dRbiG> aye, I guess I see it
<Drup> except this
<Drup> "let f = fun x -> blabla" ≡ "let f x = blabla"
<dRbiG> hmm, not fully understanding the above, my question is which is more 'standard' let foo = fun x y -> ... or let foo x y = ...
<Drup> the later
<dRbiG> makes sense
<dRbiG> same approach in scheme
<Drup> you could write dup_list in a more functional way
<dRbiG> gimme a minute, i'm updating as we speak :)
<Drup> your version is both ugly and inneficiant
<Drup> inefficient*
<Drup> no problem :)
<Drup> note that the @ operator is linear in the size of the left list, so it's a very bad idea to use it you like you did, by adding stuff to the right each time
<dRbiG> i think I know the solution, let me try it
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<dRbiG> ok, a hint is needed, am I thinking correctly here: I should prepend instead of appending?
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<def-lkb> yes
<dRbiG> ok. now i'll just need to figure out the correct syntax for that
<Drup> other than that, it's ok
<Drup> the issue I can see is that "1:2" is a valid mac address according to your code :)
<Drup> well, according to your "parse_mac" at least, it's checked later on
<dRbiG> it isn't
<dRbiG> there is a rudimentary length check
<dRbiG> but error-awareness was not the goal here
<dRbiG> (yet)
<Drup> fair enough :p
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<dRbiG> Drup: i don't see how I could implement with prepend; i guess another homework then :)
<dRbiG> thx for comments!
<Drup> dRbiG: are you familiar with prolog ?
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<Drup> if you are, think "list chaining", it may help you
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<j0sh> I'm getting this warning which I'm unsure of how to resolve: "This record of type xxx contains fields that are not visible in the current scope: yyy zzz."
<Anarchos> j0sh maybe a typo ?
<j0sh> the record xxx is part of a parameterized module, i've tried to be explicit with the fully qualified type when instantiating the record instance, but no dice
<j0sh> Anarchos: don't think so, if the field is nonexistent the compiler errors out as expected
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<malvarez> j0sh can you post the code?
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<j0sh> it's possible i'm using the ocaml-redis library incorrectly (there's no documentation and i'm still fairly new to ocaml)
<malvarez> Never used ocaml-redis myself, but OCaml is kind of...annoying with records sometimes
<Anarchos> malvarez with the non shareable names of fields ?
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<malvarez> Anarchos well yeah. I think that's what's happening here, I think you need to explicitly tell OCaml the record literal you're creating is a Redis_lwt.Client.connection_spec
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<j0sh> malvarez: my code is doing that
<malvarez> j0sh no, you're saying the variable cfg has that type
<Drup> j0sh: do somehting like "let cfg = Redis_lwt.Client.connection_spec.{host = "localhost"; port = 6379}"
<Drup> I don't remember if you need extra paranthesis or if .{ ... } is accepted
<malvarez> Drup I think extra parenthesis are needed
<malvarez> Also can't you write {Redis_lwt.Client.connection_spec. host=""; port=1111} ?
<Drup> I think so, yes
<malvarez> j0sh: in a nutshell, when you write a record literal, the unqualified type must be within scope (for example, opening Redis_lwt.Client), or you must annotate the literal itself
<Drup> or you can cope with the warning
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<j0sh> strange that annotating the variable declaration isn't enough, i would've expected that
<malvarez> j0sh: welcome to the wonderful world of OCaml records
<Drup> j0sh: it's enough
<Drup> there is a misunderstanding about this warning I think
<j0sh> Drup: the way I did the annotation (in my code) still throws the warning
<Drup> This warning is not telling you that you are doing something wrong
<Drup> it's telling you that the compiler used the "smart" record name resolution and looked outside the current scope
<j0sh> still trying to figure out the exact syntax to annotate the literal
<Drup> it's a warning "ok, right now I had to be a bit smarter than usual, and I'm telling you about it"
<Drup> it's functionally equivalent to the manually fully resolved
<malvarez> Drup: you might be right, but my compiler also tells me that "the fields will not be selected if the type becomes unknown", which I don't really understand
<malvarez> And doesn't look harmless anymore
<j0sh> yup, i get that too
<malvarez> I don't really understand the implications, but it sounds a bit too much like "things might break in unexpected ways"
<malvarez> Also, j0sh, I think it should suffice with "{Redis_lwt.Client. host=...; port=...}"
<malvarez> Note that Redis_lwt.Client.({ host=...; port=... }) also works, although for slightly different reasons
<j0sh> malvarez: {Redis_lwt.Client.host = ...} worked, thanks
<malvarez> j0sh: you can make it work by opening Redis_lwt.Client
<j0sh> i was trying {Redis_lwt.Client.connection_spec.host = ...} and it wouldn't work
<Drup> malvarez: It might break, for example if you stop linking the package with the correct record
<malvarez> j0sh: yeah, my previous indication was wrong, my bad
<Drup> which is far from being "unexpected" if you ask me.
<j0sh> malvarez: no worries
<j0sh> thanks for the help, everyone
<Drup> it's regular ocaml name resolution, just a bit extended
<malvarez> Drup: well, that makes sense
<j0sh> Drup: "stop linking the package with the correct record" <-- what do you mean by this?
<j0sh> how do you link it with the "wrong" record?
<Drup> no, but you can not have it :p
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<dRbiG> Drup: not that familiar; but I can see I can just change the order in my case and instead of going through the ever-growing list @ will only have to go as far as the length of the initial list
<dRbiG> which is a level-up
<dRbiG> from the initial version :)
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