ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.01.0 announce at http://bit.ly/1851A3R | Logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<artagnon> How do I improve upon this monstrosity? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=hkGX4uYk
<artagnon> I'm implementing a macro system for my language, and SQUOTE/ UNQUOTE can basically appear anywhere.
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<x32> hi, I am trying to figure out what the '`' (operator?) is. For example if I type `int on the command line I get [> `int ] = `int I think it has to do with the type system but not sure.
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<x32> polymofphic variants
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<adrien> ` isn't an operator
<adrien> it's part of the language
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<rks`> je suis sur youtube et euh
<rks`> oh, bad channel
<rks`> :>
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<adrien> :D
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<zennist> In the utop top level, how to insert a literal <Return>
<zennist> Sometimes I'm editing a piece of code and the compiler keeps thinking that I'm trying to evaluating the unfinished piece
<zennist> I tried <C-Return> and other combinations and none of them works
<ggole> Try C-j
<mrvn> In emacs it qould be ctrl-q<return>
<ggole> (Probably won't work, but worth a shot.)
<mrvn> or <shift><return>
<zennist> ggole: tried already, not working
<ggole> :(
<mrvn> and you never need to insert a return. You might want to but you don't need to :)
<ggole> Is this raw utop, or within emacs?
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<zennist> rawutop
<ggole> Dunno then.
<zennist> mrvn: unfortnately I'm a vim guy
<zennist> ggole: T-T
<mrvn> condolences
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<jpdeplaix> ping gasche__
<jpdeplaix> :(
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<philtor> 4.02.0 seems to have been released \o/
<whitequa1k> !!!
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<jpdeplaix> not a good news :(
<whitequa1k> why not?
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<whitequa1k> oh
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<osa1> I just installed frama-c using opam but as far as I can see no executables are generated even though installation was successful. any ideas why?
<Kakadu> Paths are not set?
<osa1> PATH is set but I'm also searching .opam for the bins but no frama-c bins appear
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<osa1> so the problem is not that I can't run `frama-c` in the shell. the problem is no executables are created in .opam
<osa1> oh wait apparently I was looking to wrong directory. sorry for the noise.
<osa1> I didn't know I have both 4.00.1 and 4.01.0 installed
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<Denommus> I think I'm starting to like OCaml more than I like Haskell, despite the impurity
<Denommus> mainly because of the module system
<mrvn> Because ocaml programmers have fun.
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<Denommus> mrvn: seriously, modules are a lot more powerful than typeclasses alone.
<mrvn> oehm. typeclasses can do lots of stuff that modules can't.
<mrvn> esspecially type classes work on multiple types.
<flux> lots? the essential point of typeclasses is dispatch by type-of-value, so it's the one thing they can do?-o
<mrvn> Ok, so the only thing they can do is what modules can't do. :)
<mrvn> modules are basically just namespaces
<flux> well, there are functors
<flux> I would hardly say 'just namespaces'
<mrvn> which create namespaces from other namespaces :)
<flux> and new types..
<mrvn> first class namespaces? :)
<flux> my understanding is that haskell folks are envious of ml modules and ml folks are envious of type classes ;)
<mrvn> flux: same type, different namesapce ==> new type
<mrvn> flux: probably. The grass on the other side of the fence is always greener
<flux> I wonder what would happen if both had both.
<Denommus> mrvn: heh, you CAN have the same features from typeclasses out of OCaml's module system
<mrvn> flux: if you have modules and type classes then you still want actual namespaces
<mrvn> Denommus: no. You can't define a val + : [int | float] as 'a -> 'a -> 'a
<mrvn> Denommus: what do monads have to do with type classes?
<Denommus> mrvn: Haskell implements monads through type classes
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<mrvn> Denommus: so?
<mrvn> Denommus: all you've shown is that you can have monads in ocaml
<Denommus> mrvn: you mean val +: [int | float] -> [int | float] -> [int | float]?
<mrvn> Denommus: no. can't add int and float I think.
<Denommus> mrvn: but that's a different problem that has nothing to do with typeclasses :P
<Denommus> mrvn: :t (+1) is different from :t (+1.0)
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<Denommus> mrvn: and you're forgetting that modules are first-class citizens in OCaml, just like Haskell's typeclasses! Otherwise my strategy to implement Monad wouldn't even work
<orbitz> if I just do type t = (foo, [> `Bar ]) Result.t I get errors about having a type variable around the polymorphic variant. previously i thought this was only a problem if I had paramateriezed t in some way but was ok if it was a concrete type. what am I doing wrong?
<mrvn> #I think you can't define a type like that, only use it in a signature
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<orbitz> hrm k
<orbitz> 'tis ok, it actually pointed out that was doing something wrong
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<nlucaroni> Wouldn't the addition of implicits to OCaml satisfy the module + typeclasses combination?
<nlucaroni> (that they would satisfy the missing parts of typeclasses that modules don't satisfy)
<Denommus> nlucaroni: I guess
<Denommus> there is still one point where OCaml's variables fail, though. That they're generative
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<nlucaroni> Yeah, that can be a bit of a pain to deal with the boilerplate that may come with that.
<axiles> orbitz: you can do this: type 'a t = (foo, 'a) Result.t constraint 'a = [> `Bar ]
<smondet> orbitz: [> `Bar ] has like an implicit type variable
<smondet> axiles: orbitz: or a bit shorter: type 'a t = (int, [> `Bar ] as 'a) Result.t;;
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<axiles> smondet: ironically, in the toplevel, the first solution is displayed when you entered the second solution
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<mrvn> but you have those domains, then you can set caching/buffering or overrides to jet a third way to specify the cache behaviour
<mrvn> ups
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<orbitz> smondet, axiles thanks
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<MercurialAlchemi> typeclasses in Ocaml would be very cool
<MercurialAlchemi> the situation right now can be a bit frustrating
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<orbitz> MercurialAlchemi: I have never really used type clases, can you give a situatio that is bothersome for you?
<MercurialAlchemi> orbitz: say you want to write a function which operates on a polymorphic value t
<MercurialAlchemi> orbitz: you want to be able to compare, using a custom comparator, T1 (of type t) and T2 (of the same type t), and throw an error displaying T2 if T1 < T2
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<orbitz> ah, i use functors for taht
<MercurialAlchemi> orbitz: in a language with type classes, you just add the constraint that t should have an instance of Comparable and Show (or whatever you call these typeclasses in your future ocaml)
<MercurialAlchemi> orbitz: and then you can just call (T1 <= T2) and (show T2) and it magically works
<orbitz> right
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<MercurialAlchemi> it's not perfect for readability (sometimes you wonder where the implementation for t is located) but it's goddamn convenient
<MercurialAlchemi> then if your language implements that, you can get existential types and say that your list is a "list of stuff that implements Show"
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<MercurialAlchemi> I'm not sure how you can simulate typeclasses in Ocaml easily
<mrvn> you can't
<mrvn> not even uneasily
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<MercurialAlchemi> mrvn: so you end passing functions all around?
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<mrvn> MercurialAlchemi: or you use + and +. as needed
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<MercurialAlchemi> mrvn: sure, but that's not very generic
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<mrvn> you can pass a first class module around, a single closure or a record or tuple of closures. Or use objects. whatever you feel is best.
<mrvn> or functors.
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<MercurialAlchemi> I see
<evilkidder> MercurialAlchemi: mrvn: you can try Leo White and Frederic Bours modular implicit prototype compiler here - http://andrewray.github.io/iocamljs - along with their draft paper.
<mrvn> I can do a lot of things.
<MercurialAlchemi> evilkidder: is that a fork of the Ocaml compiler?
<def`> MercurialAlchemi: extension/prototype
<MercurialAlchemi> well, this doesn't look too bad
<MercurialAlchemi> at first glance at least
<evilkidder> MercurialAlchemi: yes it's a patch to a recent 4.02 version.
<MercurialAlchemi> exciting
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<Algebr> Safe to say that utop took a significant amount of work to do?
<Algebr> also, presumably it uses ncurses
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<Druup> it doesn't use ncurses
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<Drup> (and yeah, it took significant amount of work)
<Algebr> Drup: What does it use instead of ncurses?
<Drup> lambda-term
<Drup> an ocaml library to build terminals GUI
<Drup> which doesn't suck, as opposed to ncurses, which is the biggest crap I ever tried to work with
<Drup> (more than not-sucking, lambda term is a really nice library, even if it lack a tutorial, imho)
<Algebr> I loved using utop, the ocaml ecosystem feels so polished, love opam too.
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<Leonidas> hmm, someone should update the topic to 4.02.0
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