ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<nicoo> :>
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<rgrinberg> lol
<rgrinberg> Drup:
<vanila> what the fuck is wrong with people :SS
<vanila> i thought only haskell folk were .. like this
<vanila> the guy just needs to make his own library with consr in it and import that
<rgrinberg> vanila: a bunch of us ARE sympathetic to bunzli
<rgrinberg> he does good work and he's trying to help
<rgrinberg> nevertheless it is funny :P
<vanila> this was a particularly awful one i came across
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<rgrinberg> vanila: of bunzli?
<vanila> nah i didn't even realize he wa sin that thread
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<AltGr> About OPAM #482, there is now an imported function `opam-switch-eval` that allow you to not use eval
<AltGr> I've never seen anyone use it :)
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<struktured> be the first!
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<nonuby> does ocaml support non-escaped strings, like c# has with @"\n" == "\\n"
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<smondet> nonuby: yes {token| bla bla \ " |token} http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml-4.02/extn.html#sec244
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<mcc> Hey I have a question about BEST PRACTICES in OCAML WHITESPACE
<mcc> This is a thing I wrote and I am worried about, the "in" floating alone on line 40
<mcc> would y'all have done this differently?
<cateches> does anyone know if the "kaleidescope" tutorial on the llvm site is out of date? I'm having a hard time linking anything against llvm on os x
<cateches> I just get "Error: Unbound module Llvm"
<mcc> i'm pretty sure i've heard people mention the tutorial is out of date. this is all the information i have. maybe ask whitequark?
<mcc> However, "unbound module Llvm" does not sound like a "tutorial is out of date" issue?
<cateches> mcc my feeling is that the linkage instructions are incorrect
<cateches> and so the module remains unbound
<cateches> either way, I'll ping whitequark tomorrow, this isn't terribly urgent
<mcc> It seems like linkage is the kind of thing that should be possible to debug without the tutorial, potentially...
<mcc> how did you install the Llvm module?
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<reynir> mcc: sometimes I write "in process"
<reynir> but I don't think it looks bad your way FWIW
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<mcc> reynir: yeah i actually do that a lot in my own project but this one i want to be really readable
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<reynir> hehe "does github even put this description line anywhere"
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<dmbaturin> mcc: SML-style floating in is probably more readable in this case. I also have a habit of indenting the inner expressions, but that's controversial. :)
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<orbitz> I have a piece of C code that does CAMLlocal2 (vres,bufv); then on a few lines down: bufv; (alone on the line)
<orbitz> Is this a known idiom to try to trick gcc out of optimizing something? Or can I safely remove?
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<struktured> orbitz: not that I really have a clue but looks suspicious, do you have the code somewhere on github?
<orbitz> No, it's ocamlfuse which is in some weird state in terms of ownership and location, I think
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<struktured> yeah unless there's a preprocessor doing something sneaky I can't imagine that having any effect whatsoever
<orbitz> My thoughts as well
<orbitz> struktured: you don't happen to know anything about camlidl, do you?
<struktured> no, sorry.
<struktured> your code snippet wouldn't even compile with something like -Wunused enabled
<orbitz> Indeed
<orbitz> I'm trying to get ocamlfuse to work in FreeBSD
<orbitz> It's putting up a fight
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<struktured> shouldn't be super hard but yeah not surprised that the compilers/header files are just different enough to be annoying
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<orbitz> The biggest issue is xattrs
<orbitz> which are only supported on os x and linux, but it means the actual fuse structure is differnt on those systems
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<orbitz> morning thomasga
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<thomasga> 'morning
<orbitz> struktured: well that just makes my life more difficult
<orbitz> but actually, thank you. I think it simplifies some parts
<orbitz> Learn me to trust Google's summary search ansswer
<struktured> it seems to be as of 5.0 or later, maybe you dug up or are using an an older version.
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<flux> orbitz, my only guess is that it's a half-assed way to tell the compiler not to complain about the non-use of a variable.. though that should make a warning of its own ;-). the typical idiom being (void) variable;
<flux> other than that: a mistake :)
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<struktured> flux: I don't think the half-assed technique actually works. If you list the same variable repeatedly in the function body -Wunused would still complain (maybe some other C compilers would get tricked?)
<flux> struktured, that's why it's half-assed.
<flux> perhaps it has worked on some compiler 10 years ago.
<struktured> ah, noted
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<dmbaturin> If I have a (non-abstract) record type defined in a module, and I want to use it outside, what's the best way to do it without opening the whole module where it's defined?
<struktured> dmbaturin: one approach is module S = struct type t = {a:int;b:string} end; let f x = S.(match x with {a=0;b="abc"} -> true | _ -> false);;
<struktured> dmbaturin: another is "let open Foo in ..." pattern of course
<flux> or just foo.S.a ;-)
<struktured> ah yes
<struktured> but that doesn't cover construction, matching, etc., although it generalizes :)
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<struktured> also using the private keyword is sometimes employed to expose te record without allowing construction outside the module
<struktured> *the
<ggole> M.{ foo = ...; bar = ... } is nice for construction
<ggole> (Although it opens M within the scope of the { ... }, which may be surprising.)
<struktured> oh interesting, didn't know that.
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<ggole> I would personally have preferred it to mean { M.foo = ...; M.bar = ... }, but oh well
<struktured> thats what you'd expect but I suppose
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<struktured> ggole: most of time it reduces to same thing- have you gotten shafted by implicit let that before?
<ggole> No, but I'm wary of it
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<struktured> don't blame you
<ggole> M.{ x = 0 } is fine, of course
<flux> it's the "most of the time" part that's dangerous ;-). but I suppose no real bugs can ever occur because of that.
<flux> I would agree with ggole's preference, but it's not really a deal breaker ;)
<ggole> But with a nested function call it would be quite easy to shadow something
<ggole> Yeah. It's consistent with M.() and M.[], so it's not like there's no sense to the way it is
<flux> regardless, it cannot be changed
<ggole> Yup.
<flux> oh, there's M.[] :)
<flux> it's the same as let open M in [] ?
<ggole> Yes
<ggole> So all three can be understood as the same desugaring, which is nice
<dmbaturin> {M.foo ...} is 4.02+, right?
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<dmbaturin> Or it was in 4.01 too?
<ggole> No, that's been around forever
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<ggole> M.{...} is more recent, I can't remember which version
<flux> it's the local openg systems that are modern, I think 3.12.1
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<octachron> M.{..} is from 4.02
<flux> ok, so it's been introduced after other local open syntaxes?
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<octachron> yes, M.()/M.{}/.. are desugared to let open M in ... in the parser
<flux> ok, so 3.12 has both let open in and Module.(expr), those are more recent additions :) http://caml.inria.fr/distrib/ocaml-3.12/ocaml-3.12-refman.html#htoc105
<octachron> I guess not. Or at least, I can't find descriptions of the new M.({}|[],[||],{<>}) syntax
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<AltGr> About that, does M.() work in patterns yet ?
<octachron> no, it is still restricted to M.(expr)
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<octachron> Would it really makes sense to have M.(patt)?
<octachron> If you are matching, you probably want to open the module in all branches, so a "let open M in" before the match seems better
<flux> you can have a pattern that in its structure can refer to other modules
<flux> so I guess there are use cases, but not very common :)
<flux> perhaps its most 'important' reason would be some form of uniformity
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<flux> if you can construct a value with M.{ foo = 42 }, it seems only logical you can deconstruct it the same way
<ggole> There's an issue about that iirc
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<dmbaturin> What's pcre findlib package called?
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<dmbaturin> Wait. The correct question should be, is pcre opam package broken for 4.02.1?
<Leonidas> let's test
<octachron> flux: I didn't think about deconstructing records. You are right, it is a quite compelling use case.
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<Leonidas> dmbaturin: well, it compiles for me.
<Leonidas> on 4.02.1+fp
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<dmbaturin> Leonidas: Does #require "pcre";; work?
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<Leonidas> dmbaturin: yep
<dmbaturin> Strange.
<Leonidas> (ocaml-pcre 7.1.5 on pcre 8.35 on Fedora 21, amd64)
<dmbaturin> It installs without errors for me, but then there is no package.
<dmbaturin> In 4.01.0 it works.
<Leonidas> dmbaturin: are the files in the filesystem?
<Leonidas> dmbaturin: are you sure it installed in the right direction?
<dmbaturin> Leonidas: No, nothing about pcre in ~/.opam/4.02.1/lib
<Leonidas> I've had issues building arch ocaml packages because it was installing them into the opam-supplied ocaml, not into system ocaml :-)
<dmbaturin> Well, I'm using the opam-supplied ocaml.
<Leonidas> maybe you could rise the verbosity and see what is happening?
<dmbaturin> Let me retry it.
<AltGr> I definitely had use-cases for M.() in patterns... when trying to dig in deep data structures to extract some small bits of information with simpler types if I remember correctly
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<AltGr> maybe in ocp-indent while matching over the Typedtree
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<reynir> Leonidas: I've had that happen as well. It wasn't fun to have root-owned files in my .opam
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<xificurC> any good up-to-date tutorial(s) on writing compilers in ocaml one can recommend?
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<Drup> but it's a bit more than just a funny short tutorial :D
<dmbaturin> And it's in SML. :)
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<Drup> that's not a big obstracle
<Drup> SML is a subset of ocaml anyway
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<dmbaturin> Well, it's me who often recommends SML books as ocaml ones.
<Drup> yep
<Drup> (in particular, okasaki translates trivially in OCaml, including fancy lazyness stuff)
<dmbaturin> I want to buy that Appel's book, but the price is a bit high.
<companion_cube> although the performance might not follow
<Drup> companion_cube: it does
<Leonidas> I didn't like the Appel book, but I had the java variant
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<dmbaturin> I wonder if the idea to write it in three unrelated languages had any effect on the writing (and to what extent he adapted it to each of those).
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<Leonidas> xificurC: http://lambda-nights.com/ not OCaml but SML but I guess you can just use that too
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<dmbaturin> If it's the least common denominator of SML, Java, anc C, I'm not sure if I want to see it. :)
<ousado> Leonidas: the Java variant? was it more than "Chapter 1: Don't use Java for writing compilers. The End." ?
<Leonidas> dmbaturin: university libraries othen have it.
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<Leonidas> ousado: yeah, I used it to write the compiler in Python ;)
<Drup> outch.
<Leonidas> *often, not othen
<flux> visitor pattern is teh best.
<Leonidas> I've used multimethods
<Drup> I did that, once
<Drup> I didn't enjoyed it.
<Leonidas> hey, I was 18 or so ;)
<Drup> my compiler course during university was in Java
<ousado> I'm not sure I'd want to give money to someone who pretends it might be a good idea to use Java for such things
<dmbaturin> Leonidas: If I were in academia, <list of things I'd do if I were in academia>.
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<Leonidas> dmbaturin: in germany you don't have to be in academia to be able to get books from the library.
<ousado> Leonidas: do you stil live in DE?
<Leonidas> dmbaturin: a archived version of a elinks snapshot of some page, nice level of indirection :-)
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<Leonidas> ousado: 'still'? You mean why I haven't moved because of the Zombie plague in DE?
* Leonidas ;)
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<ousado> well, you said you were 18 when you used that book to write a compiler in python..
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<Leonidas> in high school, yes, so around that age.
<dmbaturin> The original version of that page was not even archived due to robots.txt. I have no idea why people would disallow indexing of public, non-dynamic content.
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<ousado> deep web 0.1
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<Leonidas> dmbaturin: so they get all of the ad-clicks!!1!
<ousado> lol
<ousado> "detonator pattern"
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<nicoo> dmbaturin: Your local uni library probably has _Modern Compiler Implementation_
<Drup> proposition for logging libraries in a non-lwt context ?
<ggole> dmbaturin: I have it. It's not terrible for an introductory text.
<dmbaturin> ggole: You have the ML version?
<ggole> Yeah
<Drup> hum, BatLog would be enough, without the crappy BatIo stuff
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<dmbaturin> In ounit, can I check if something raises a more than nullary exception regardless of its contents?
<dmbaturin> I.e. in imaginary syntax, assert_raises (Foo _)
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<ggole> Not without filthy hacks
<ggole> Oh wait, I mistook your meaning. Never mind.
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<ggole> "I don't know" is the real answer. :)
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<companion_cube> Drup: dolog ?
<companion_cube> I should write CCLog :]
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<adrien_znc> what?
<adrien_znc> you haven't already done so?
<Drup> companion_cube: meh, it can't parametrize which channel to output messages based on levels
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<companion_cube> .
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<cateches> does anyone here know anything about the llvm bindings to ocaml?
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<adrien> "yes"
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<Drup> I know something too about it too :D
<Drup> -too
<jpdeplaix> cateches: here also
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<cateches> Drup cool, this is what I'm having trouble with: https://gist.github.com/samlecuyer/9385b941efff752634b6
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<cateches> whitequark tells me "use ocamlfind and package(llvm.analysis)", but I don't understand the build tools well enough to know what that means
<Drup> remove all that
<Drup> and remove the g++ flag
<cateches> so delete _tags and myocamlbuild.ml?
<Drup> no, you keep _tags, but remove the g++ tag
<Drup> I'm not sure why you added it in the first place
<Drup> also, the ocamlbuild invocation should be "ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind toy.byte"
<cateches> okay, that works
<cateches> thanks!
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<Drup> really ? because you should also replace all the use_foo by package(foo) :D
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<t4nk145> hello
<t4nk145> I'm new to caml, and I have an "unbound value", but I cannot understand why it's unbound, can somehelp me ? ( http://pastebin.com/QJcQArfc )
<cateches> Drup sorry, peter was giving me tips via twitter, so together they worked out
<Drup> I get a syntax error, not an unbounded value.
<t4nk145> I4m testing it with http://try.ocamlpro.com/
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<Drup> t4nk145: you forgot a ";" after "done"
<t4nk145> How can I know where I have to put the ";" ?
<t4nk145> I mean, when I have to put it *
<cmtptr> you put it between imperative statements
<t4nk145> which statements are imperative ?
<cmtptr> "for...done" is one expression, and "!j" is another. you want them to be evaluated in sequence, so you delimit them with a ";"
<t4nk145> thank you, i understand better
<t4nk145> you are really helpfull and quick
<t4nk145> if i ever become rich, i'll send money to people who help like you, because i really like it
<cmtptr> unlike #lua which sucks amirite
<t4nk145> I do not know lua, but it seems like you don't like them haha
<t4nk145> I don't understand why :
<t4nk145> let f x b y = x + (let _ = y + 3 in (); if b then y else 0);;
<t4nk145> what does mean "let _ = y + 3 in ();" ?
<t4nk145> how can we let "_" be something ?
<t4nk145> (With the expression stuff, I understand way easily why stuff didn't work as expected, thanks !)
<cmtptr> could have swore I've seen you in #lua before. oh well
<t4nk145> I think it's because it's the default nick
<cmtptr> ... default nick for what?
<cateches> actually, hey Drup one more thing: when I go to add Llvm_executionengine, I get major linking errors (symbols not found), are there extra packages I need to add?
<t4nk145> when you come from here http://irc.lc/freenode/ocaml/t4nk@@@
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<t4nk145> so
<t4nk145> nobody knows what means "let _ = 3 in ()" ?
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<thizanne> it means exactly the same thing as "let a = 3 in ()", except you do not define a
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<t4nk145> thizanne: so, when is it used ?
<cateches> t4nk145 I don't understand what you're asking. that's essentially like saying "ignore 3"
<cateches> or are you saying when is _ used?
<thizanne> t4nk145: this particular line of code, never, because it does nothing
<thizanne> but you can write let () = print_int 23
<t4nk145> why won't you just write print_int 23 ?
<thizanne> which is syntactically an expression, and therefore can be at the top level of a file
<t4nk145> (print_int 23) is not an expression ?
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<thizanne> yes it is, I meant a declaration
<t4nk145> ok, i see then
<t4nk145> when do we use "<-" ?
<t4nk145> instead of :=
<cateches> Drup did you happen to see my one last question from earlier?
<thizanne> := is for references only, <- is for a mutable field or for arrays
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<t4nk145> is a list a mutable field ?
<thizanne> where did you learn ocaml ?
<t4nk145> I never did, and I have no time, that's the problem ^^'
<thizanne> oh
<t4nk145> It's like I have to learn it in 1 horu
<t4nk145> hour
<t4nk145> Or I'm in big troubles
<thizanne> well I don't think you're saving time by trying to use it with no learning
<t4nk145> I don't really have choice in fact
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<cateches> t4nk145 do you know other functional languages?
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<t4nk145> cateches : Nope, except if you consider massively using lambda in python as functional
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<cateches> not really for the sake of this question
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<t4nk145> cateches: so no
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<t4nk145> cateches: What does mean "==" when typing
<t4nk145> What's the difference with "=" ?
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<Drup> cateches: llvm.executionengine
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<javamonn> t4nk145 "==" is physical equals, ie same address in memory, "=" is structural equals. vast majority of the time you want "="
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<t4nk145> do you have examples ?
<t4nk145> javamonn: that's when testing
<t4nk145> i see
<t4nk145> but i meant, when typing
<t4nk145> when doing type blabla = dzqojhdo
<t4nk145> when would you do type blabla == dzddz
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<t4nk145> What is "mem" in caml ?
<lyxia> t4nk145: List.mem tells you whether an element is in a list.
<t4nk145> i see
<t4nk145> thanks
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<lyxia> t4nk145: == is never used for types.
<xificurC> Drup: was hoping for something where ocaml libs are used, like menhir. Thanks anyway
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<thizanne> actually lyxia it was
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<thizanne> in Caml Light, type aliases were defined with ==
<thizanne> and this would explain why he asked for "mem" and not List.me
<thizanne> m
<lyxia> ohh
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<cmtptr> < lyxia> t4nk145: List.mem tells you whether an element is in a list.
<cmtptr> isn't that normally called "elem"?
<cateches> Drup yeah I added that to my _tags, but I was wondering if there's anything else I need (https://gist.github.com/samlecuyer/dce83bef199a509e3b09) maybe my llvm path is off?
<Drup> cateches: why did you removed package(llvm) ?
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<cateches> Drup on accident
<cateches> I get the same errors either way
<Drup> and if you try to compile toy.native ?
<cateches> I get it on both byte and native
<cateches> I'm on 3.5
<Drup> that's weird, I don't know, ask whitequark :D
<cateches> if that helps
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<cateches> haha okay :)
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<vanila> Can I use tlstunnel with a self signed cert?
<Drup> hannes: ^
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<vanila> I got this problem: Failure("Private key (../csr/domain.key): No RSA keys") -- tried a bunch of things to set up my own CA and sign a CSR etc.. it's very difficult :S
<vanila> $ openssl rsa -check -in ../csr/domain.key
<vanila> RSA key ok
<vanila> I would bet on me doing something wrong more likely than a bug in the software but it's really hard to know
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<dmbaturin> vanila: You may steal easy-rsa scripts from openvpn.
<vanila> ooh thanks!
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<vanila> my friend showed me how to make the certificates and now it says: tlstunnel: internal error, uncaught exception: Unix.Unix_error(Unix.EPIPE, "Tls_lwt.write", "")
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<dmbaturin> What is tlstunnel?
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<dmbaturin> EPIPE is a pretty generic error.
<vanila> it lets you do HTTPS using ocamls ssl implementation rather than openssl
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<dmbaturin> Interesting.
<vanila> needs beta testers I think! :)
<dmbaturin> Right now I'm too sleepy to try it or read the code.
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<vanila> yeah its hard to get started... there are some mistakes in the readme
<vanila> im taking notes to add some corrections
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