ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<bernardofpc> BatFingerTree is faster than my avl hack for n = 100
<bernardofpc> (but not too much: for n = 1500, I get 13.067 vs 14.889
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<Algebr> cohttp is hanging for me and i have no idea how to debug this.
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<cmtptr> print()
<Algebr> right. print isn't much help when the code doesn't excute.
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<Algebr> and nothing is timing out either, this is very upsetting.
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<mcc> If I'm submitting something to OPAM, it's probably considerate to host it on github rather than bitbucket, right?
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<mcc> Also should the "long description" in an opam descr file adhere to any particular guidelines regarding word wrapping
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<AltGr> mcc: there is no problem at all with hosting your OPAM package wherever you want; Github only has the bonus of allowing easier cross-referencing for the issues.
<mcc> AltGr: Yeah, I am asking about social protocol rather than technical limitations.
<mcc> also, uh...
<mcc> what exactly is the meaning of the "opam-version" file?
<mcc> this is "the version of opam i am running, right this instant"?
<AltGr> No guidelines on the long description, but it's printed as-is, so there _should_ be a guideline to wrap at 80 cols :)
<AltGr> field ?
<AltGr> It's the base version of OPAM required for this file, it's safe to put "1.2" there
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<mcc> ok so, i put "1.0"
<mcc> and when i tried to submit i put: "[ERROR] In /Users/mcc/work/gh/ppx_const/ppx_const.1.0/opam: - Field 'opam-version' doesn't match the current version, validation may not be accurate"
<AltGr> Also if you haven't already read it, there is a re-hauled doc on the package format at http://opam.ocaml.org/doc/Manual.html
<mcc> should i just put 0.2 in that particular opam file and resubmit?
<mcc> i just copy-and-pasted from one of whitequark's opam packages :)
<AltGr> You can check locally with `opam lint`
<AltGr> it's not really wrong to put `1.0` there, but we didn't implement a mechanism for verifying that your description is _indeed_ compatible with 1.0
<mcc> i see
<mcc> one more question
<AltGr> also, 1.2 opam files are automatically rewritten for 1.1, so you won't lose compatibility
<mcc> well, i just... i didn't target 1.2.
<AltGr> (and support for 1.0 is discontinued anyway)
<mcc> ok
<mcc> So I have my source dir, /Users/mcc/work/gh/ppx_const
<mcc> it contains an opam file
<mcc> this is checked into version control
<mcc> i ran opam-publish, it created a /Users/mcc/work/gh/ppx_const/ppx_const.1.0 directory. it contains a new opam file
<AltGr> hm, if ppx_const was currently pinned to that dir, it should have picked up the opam file
<mcc> so, that is the interesting part
<mcc> they are similar but not identical
<mcc> it appears to have removed a line or two, and also removed my license line and replaced it with "public domain"
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<AltGr> ah, it's probably been parsed and re-printed
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<mcc> ok
<AltGr> Uhhh... that's troubling!
<mcc> should it be considered a bug it changed the license :P
<mcc> i mean, it does not matter in this case, as the license is CC0
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<mcc> however, i think that, if someone didn't notice that, and submitted with THAT opam file containing "public domain", and the one IN the repository containing "GPL"... a bad thing could happen?
<AltGr> I don't see how that could happen... maybe there was a different opam file in a repository that got picked up instead ?
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<mcc> find ./* | grep opam says no
<mcc> should i try again and see if it's reproducible?
<AltGr> `opam show ppx_const --where` might give a hint
<AltGr> That should'nt ever happen, license is just a string and no given license is hardcoded
<mcc> "~/.opam/system/overlay/ppx_const/opam" which is delivering the pinned opam
<mcc> --oh
<AltGr> (I pondered for a while putting the most used license in the template, but decided it was a bad idea to put any)
<mcc> if i say:
<mcc> opam-publish prepare ppx_const.1.0 https://github.com/mcclure/ppx_const/archive/v1.0.tar.gz
<mcc> from whence will it load the opam file?
<mcc> current directory? the tgz?
<AltGr> ah, from the archive, probably, if there is one
<AltGr> let me check the priority
<mcc> one more question, how will it react if there are quotes in the license name?
<mcc> my icense line is "Creative Commons Zero (\"public domain or equivalent\")"
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<AltGr> you can escape them. Might cause problems with opam < 1.2 though, I'd let travis detect that.
<mcc> travis?
<AltGr> the archive _should_ have lower priority
<mcc> the archive ctaons the line correctly tho?
<mcc> so the thing is
<mcc> the original whitequark repo i cloned had "public domain" in that field, at some point
<AltGr> travis runs automatic checks on any PR to opam-repository, including with OPAM 1.1
<mcc> okay. travis, the human who is logged into this channel?
<mcc> I could just remove the quotation marks. Is it sensible to assume people know what Creative Commons Zero is?
<AltGr> There is no clear standard, but I believe keeping common abbreviations in the opam files is best for sorting afterwards
<AltGr> that would easily allow sorting by license on http://opam.ocaml.org/packages/, and we could add links to the given licenses
<mcc> ok... i do not see a way to get licenses on that page. but you are suggesting adding a way?
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<mcc> ok so... based on what you are telling me, i think this is what i should do: - trash the 1.0 directory in progress - edit the opam file, make it opam-version 1.2.0 - set license to "Creative Commons Zero" - make this the new v1.0 tag - push to github again - do the opam-publish prepare again?
<mcc> oh, and opam lint before i commit/push anything...?
<mcc> (thanks for the help on this, i have never done this before :O
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<AltGr> opam-version should be `1.2` rather than `1.2.1`, because format isn't supposed to change for patch versions ; otherwise, sounds all good! Note however that you can directly change the opam in the prepared directory, if you don't want to change your tag.
<AltGr> Also, `opam publish submit` does lint for you before submitting anything :)
<mcc> okay... it seems like it would be bad for the opam in the repository and the opam submitted to be different? is that not actually bad?
<mcc> i decided to go ahead with calling the license "Creative Commons Zero" instead of "CC0"
<mcc> ok. i think i know what is happening with the "license" field
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<mcc> OK, PR submitted!! thank you for the help :O
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<AltGr> It's not bad: OPAM ignores the bundled opam file when installing from the repo. It kicks in when the package is pinned, and it's expected that the opam file for the development version may differ from the release one. It's also quite common that the opam file in the repo gets fixed after the release (e.g. to add an `ocaml-version < 4.04` constraing), and it's cool we don't need to change the archives.
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<Drup> AltGr: you (or thomasga ?) mentionned opam-eval-switch at some point, what is it ?)
<AltGr> it's a shell function sourced with the opam init scripts (~/.opam/opam-init/switch_eval.sh)
<AltGr> that way you don't have to _see_ the eval
<AltGr> of course the real solution to avoid eval is to do `. <(opam config env)`
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<AltGr> sourcing from a pipe has absolutely nothing to do with eval()uating from a string :D
<Drup> *cough*
<Drup> no point for me then, since I'm dynamically switching ...
<Drup> while we are at it, is there a nice way to upgrade all the switches ?
<AltGr> Not really, see the second entry at http://opam.ocaml.org/doc/Tricks.html
<Drup> yeah, that's what I though
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<AltGr> for dynamic switching (or rather, switch-dispatching), you may want to check out opam-manager
<Drup> ocp-manager ?
<AltGr> ah yes, I think opam-manager was the new version but it may not be out yet (or they finally didn't change the name)
<Leonidas> OCaml Pro has managers written in ocaml? neat, certainly better than human ones :)
<AltGr> a manager ? What is that :D
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<Drup> AltGr: is it just to share tools ?
<AltGr> that includes the compiler suite and ocamlfind, so you may have different directories that transparently use different switches
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<Drup> I kinda prefer per-terminal than per-directory
<Drup> transparent switching to some other switch when entering a directory is precisely what I don't want :D
<AltGr> oh, `eval $(opam config env --switch xxx)` then
<Drup> sure
<Drup> that's what I do all the time
<Drup> I have 5/6 switches and I juggle with them like that, I'm quite happy with it, was just wondering if you had some more convenient tools :p
<AltGr> hm, no, the best improvement I could suggest is shell aliases ;)
<Drup> yeah, I do practice that too :D
<AltGr> I've got aliases or `opam config exec` in quite a few compiler versions
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<Drup> yes, exactly
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<Drup> I wonder if the setup should be documented somewhere, like in opam tips
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<Drup> AltGr: btw, how is the stuff for easy editor installation going ?
<AltGr> Haven't touched it lately, but I've been using it without trouble
<Drup> cool, I should try it with my emacs
<AltGr> the latest version tries to be quite clever by using tools from your current switch when they are available, but from the switch opam-user-setup was installed from when not _and_ if the tool supports it (eg ocp-indent, tuareg, but not merlin)
<Drup> oooh
<Drup> brb, installing that
<Drup> It's going to save my life when hacking on trunk
<Drup> while we are mentionning tooling, ping https://github.com/OCamlPro/ocp-index/issues/70 :3
<AltGr> (yep, just got back to maintaining my tools today, done opam-depext, ocp-index is close on the list)
<Drup> yay!
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<nicoo> companion_cube: The point could be made the Go is designed for people who are not willing to understand polymorphism (which is sad), but then how could you expect them to understand concurrency
<companion_cube> how could you expect them to understand anything related to programming?
<nicoo> Also, yet
<companion_cube> "basic" polymorphism is so simple it's been included in Java, which goes to great length to ensure the language can be learnt by anyone
<nicoo> It is trolling to state (and honnestly believe) that Go is a dumbly designed language for dumb programmers ?
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<bernardofpc> 1companion> how could you expect them to understand anything related to programming? -> don't start dismissing people's understanding based on your preconceptions...
<nicoo> companion_cube: BTW, for the hash-consed AVL stuff, I wanted to find again a reference about them being unique (for a given set of keys), and I cannot put my hand on it again
<nicoo> Very frustrating
<nicoo> I have poked at the latice stuff, in the meantime
<bernardofpc> you have just succumbed to the same level of people that talk only in category terms
<companion_cube> bernardofpc: seriously, polymorphism (I don't mean typeclasses or dependent types) is *really* simple
<companion_cube> even python is going to have them in their typing annotation
<companion_cube> don't tell me GVR is a type theory guru
<bernardofpc> it's not about being simple or hard, is about being necessary / useful / the only game in town that I think you're misrepresenting things
<nicoo> bernardofpc: Understanding that it is possible to do things that deal with lists, regardless of whether they are lists of apples, bananas or bottles is pretty basic, I would say
<nicoo> And extremely useful in terms of writing reusable code
<companion_cube> I was answering to nicoo's argument "The point could be made the Go is designed for people who are not willing to understand polymorphism
<companion_cube> "
<nicoo> companion_cube: I was more refering to http://nomad.so/2015/03/why-gos-design-is-a-disservice-to-intelligent-programmers/ (esp. the Rob Pike quotes inside)
<nicoo> It's not an argument I esp. want to make/use/whatever-verb
<companion_cube> it's stupid to say people who learnt java couldn't understand polymorphism
<companion_cube> I'd even say that most programmers learn OO programming, which is full of complicated concepts
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<reynir> Rob Pike answered my pull request https://github.com/robpike/filter/pull/1
<Hannibal_Smith> Ahaha
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<dmbaturin> >Having written it a couple of years ago, I haven't had occasion to use it once. Instead, I just use "for" loops.
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<nicoo> companion_cube: “people who learnt java couldn't understand polymorphism” -> No one claimed that. I'm just sad that the main 2 things that Go has are its stdlib, and pleasing people who don't want to lean polymorphism (and instead prefer to mess around with runtime reflexion ...)
<nicoo> dmbaturin: I think it says something sad about Go ... :(
<Hannibal_Smith> dmbaturin, a nice quote from Pike "The key point here is our programmers are Googlers, they’re not researchers. They’re typically, fairly young, fresh out of school, probably learned Java, maybe learned C or C++, probably learned Python. They’re not capable of understanding a brilliant language but we want to use them to build good software. So, the language that we give them has to be easy for th
<Hannibal_Smith> em to understand and easy to adopt."
<dmbaturin> If they understand generics, it should imply they can understand polymorphism. :)
<nicoo> (Just = 15' before you joined, actually :o)
<Hannibal_Smith> nicoo, oh I missed that article
<Hannibal_Smith> I got that quote from another source
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<dmbaturin> Hannibal_Smith: I wonder if it implies that people from schools like CMU or upenn don't come to google.
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<Hannibal_Smith> dmbaturin, really hard to say, seems like that as like as MS, every people inside it has a really different point of view on what their workplace is
<reynir> This blog post is fun to read I think http://bouk.co/blog/idiomatic-generics-in-go/
<dmbaturin> One of the most amusing things about Go, as of me, is deviation from K&R indent style made a parse error.
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<Hannibal_Smith> dmbaturin, to is is see some people who I consider experienced, with a solid background in programming...happy with Go
<Hannibal_Smith> To be fair, their primary language is C
<Leonidas> So the quote implies that either new Googlers are stupid or university students are
<Hannibal_Smith> For sure one have to give for grant that having a good theory is different to be able to solve problems using a programming language
<Leonidas> I have somehow stopped admiring Rob Pike et al, because I disagree so much with them.
<Leonidas> "Go, designed by the people who brought you C" is not exactly the best advertisement I can think of
<haesbaert> it actually is, if you consider that those people brought you C in the 60s
<Leonidas> Hannibal_Smith: that's true, I know many people who understand algorithms better than they could code them. But that is university, where such a thing is pretty ok
<companion_cube> "Go, designed by the people who brought you C and ignored all PL research since"
<Leonidas> Hannibal_Smith: C came from 1972. ML from 1973.
<Leonidas> must have been a crazy amount of research happening in this one year
<Leonidas> to go from C to ML so fast
<Leonidas> companion_cube: hey, C 89 is I think still the most commonly used C variant.
<dmbaturin> The (in)famous Multics was written in PL/I, an actual high level language.
<companion_cube> Algol was higher-level than C, I think
<Leonidas> there was a funny comparison between a mystery language and go
<dmbaturin> I'm not advocating PL/I of course, neither I'm advocating Multics, but the fact remains, Multics installation served the military until early 2000's, with little downtime, and it was B1 certified.
<companion_cube> Leonidas: heh I remember that
<Leonidas> I mean there are some things that Go got right.
<ggole> Let's bring back call-by-name, it'd be fun
<Leonidas> It just seems the mob moving from Java to Ruby to JS is moving to Go now and next to something else nonsensival
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<ggole> Channels in OCaml would be interesting
<companion_cube> bbbr, call-by-name with effects...
<Leonidas> yes, indeed
<companion_cube> ggole: indeed!
<ggole> Of course, there's jocaml, which never really went anywhere
<nojb> how are they different from Lwt_streams ?
<companion_cube> if the multicore GC works some day, channels might be interesting to have
<Leonidas> isn't it a forked ocaml?
<ggole> I think so, yes
<companion_cube> jocaml is quite unintuitive imho
<ggole> I haven't used it. Only skimmed the docs.
<Leonidas> me too. looked confusing
<Leonidas> go channels look easy.
<companion_cube> I tried a bit, but it's quite strange
<Hannibal_Smith> Leonidas, my personal opinion about Pike point of view is simply that he thinks that his experience with many years with "the working programmers" is more important that the kind of research that is made by people who are actually studying PL theory. One can argue that also people who are PL researcher valuate a lot the relationship between CS and math background behind a PL language and "the working programmer"
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<Hannibal_Smith> But for sure what his experience bought is Go, that is completely different from a language such as like OCaml
<Leonidas> Hannibal_Smith: yes, that sounds accurate. I just disagree that his experience as working programmer is overly relevant to most working programmers now.
<Leonidas> which is why I like how Rust evolves
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<Leonidas> maybe something like lwt streams with some syntactic support
<companion_cube> Hannibal_Smith: there's also a large number of programmers who think anything from academia is disconnected from practical problems
<reynir> the Lwt_streams api seems a bit more complicated
<companion_cube> so, necessarily, ignoring academia implies the language is a «pragmatic» one
<companion_cube> nojb: Lwt_stream isn't really blocking, is it?
<Hannibal_Smith> Keep in mind that I remember some rants by Robert Harper on how Rust "core team" is not really made by PL researcher. He after give his excuses because Rust team has also people like Aaron Turon
<companion_cube> the good thing about Go's channels is the ability to "wait" on several channels, and branch depending on which channel did receive a value
<companion_cube> a bit like a pattern-matching
<ousado> that's like C# async Tasks
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<reynir> companion_cube: I think you can use Lwt_stream.choose for that
<ousado> which translate to continuations implemented as state-machines
<reynir> It's not immediately obvous that's how you do it, I think
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<companion_cube> I'm not sure, the semantics of Lwt_stream is not completely clear to me
<companion_cube> especially when used as a queue
<nojb> you can simulate it by taking streams, say s_1, s_2 and creating a new stream (s, push) and iterating on s_1 and s_2 pushing their elements to s. Then reading from s amounts to reading from s1 or s2 at the same time without worrying about exact semantics of cancellation of Lwt_stream.next ...
<companion_cube> hmmmmm
<companion_cube> I'd rather have a blocking queue
<companion_cube> (I have written one for fun, but not sure if it works well)
<dmbaturin> companion_cube: The fun part is that languages people borrow concepts from are invariably designed by people with academic background. :)
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<dmbaturin> Configuration "true: quiet, debug, tests", line 1, characters 20-25:
<dmbaturin> Warning: the tag "tests" is not used in any flag declaration, so it will have no effect; it may be a typo. Otherwise use `mark_tag_used` in your myocamlbuild.ml to disable this warning.
<dmbaturin> What does this ocamlbuild warning mean?
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<nojb> it means that is ocamlbuild does not know any rule that uses the flag "tests" so that setting it will have no effect
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<Drup> Hannibal_Smith: It's funny because, when someone arrives and say "I feel like the last 2 centuries of medecine are irrelevant and I don't believe in doctors, so I prefer to do X" (with X of your choice)
<Drup> everyone's bullshitmeter explode
<Drup> but, for some reason, it's acceptable for computer scientist and the last 50 years.
<Hannibal_Smith> Drup, probably one has to think if this is true http://www.techrepublic.com/article/data-breaches-may-cost-less-than-the-security-to-prevent-them/ and reflect on what kind of people an IT company needs
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<Drup> :|
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<n3ss3s> Hey. I'm just getting started out, I have my .ocamlinit set up so that I can "open Core" from utop and the toplevel, but if I do it in a file and try to call the interpreter (e.g. ocaml blah.ml), I get unbound module core. Halp?
<Armael> you can call utop on your file to interpret it
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<zoetus> hello all!
<zoetus> i have a question about first-class modules and including
<zoetus> suppose I have a module M, that declares some type t
<zoetus> then i want to include in M a module that I make by calling some function that returns a first-class module back to me
<zoetus> e.g. `include (val (func_that_makes_a_module ...))`
<zoetus> but the module returned by that function has a signature that also includes a type t
<zoetus> so then the compiler complains about multiple bindings for t
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<Drup> is it the same type t ?
<zoetus> how do you fix that?
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<zoetus> yes, same type
<Drup> we can start by doing "module M = (val (func_that_makes_a_module ...))"
<Drup> then "include M with type t := t
<Drup> that should work
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<n3ss3s> Hey. I'm just getting started out, I have my .ocamlinit set up so that I can "open Core" from utop and the toplevel, but if I do it in a file and try to call the interpreter (e.g. ocaml blah.ml), I get unbound module core. Halp?
<zoetus> ah, got it -- thanks!
<zoetus> so there isn't any easy way to do that in one line, right?
<Drup> maybe you can, not sure, but it's clearer that way anyway
<companion_cube> n3ss3s: I'm not sure ocaml foo.ml does read the .ocamlinit
<zoetus> hmm, i get a syntax error when i do that although it looks right to me
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<zoetus> "Parse error: "end" expected after [str_items] (in [module_expr])
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<Drup> the thing is, I'm not sure you have the right to use first class functions here
<Drup> let me do some tests.
<zoetus> ah, that makes sense
<zoetus> it somehow seems to be thinking i need an `end` there because that application is a module expression
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<zoetus> i've done `include (val (...))`, so i'm pretty sure that works
<Drup> include ((val f()) : S with type t := t)
<Drup> with S the module type
<Drup> the with type is on the module type, obviously, sorry.
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<zoetus> ah that's awesome!! thanks so much Drup!
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<reynir> I just discovered opam install -d
<zoetus> what does that do?
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<reynir> it builds the package documentation. I should probably have said --build-doc instead
<reynir> I just can't find where it put the lambda-term documentation... heh
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<Drup> not all packages have documentation build rules
<Drup> there is also -t, which runs tests
<reynir> the lambda-term readme mentions building the documentation
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<nicoo> Leonidas: Go channels are much like jocaml (Disclaimer: last time I poked at JOCaml was 5+ years ago), except that the untypedness is less startling in Go
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<companion_cube> hmm, jocaml seems weirder, honesty
<companion_cube> l
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<zoetus> has anyone ever tried using pa_test inside a recursive module?
<zoetus> it seems to choke in this case
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<nojb> the GH mirror is still not updated ...
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<sheijk> can someone explain this error? https://gist.github.com/sheijk/721bbafc3e784f0986cd
<sheijk> apparently ocaml considers Float.t and t inside Float to be different types
<nojb> you need to declare module Float : Numeric with type t = float
<nojb> otherwise Numeric.t is abstract and not equal to float
<nojb> (in line 27)
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<sheijk> ah, so when i recursively refer to a module inside itself i only see the 'public' interface. that makes sense
<sheijk> thanks!
<nojb> yes, but note that this issue has nothing to do with recursive modules
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<sheijk> nojb: sure. i just expected to see the "inside view" of the module when referring to itself for whatever reason
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<oriba> which xml-lib can be recommended?
<oriba> I used xml-light, and until just now I have used it without problems
<oriba> but ow got a parse error on a file, which looks ok
<oriba> tried other tools, which don't printed err messages
<oriba> is xml-light outdated?
<oriba> or buggy?
<nojb> xmlm should be good (or its easier variant ezxmlm)
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<oriba> the easier varant does parse any xml corretly?
<oriba> so it just has less functions?
<nojb> they parese exactly the same, is just an easier API
<oriba> aha, ok.
<oriba> will look at them. thanks
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