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<mtsd> Good morning everyone
<Regenaxer> Hi mtsd!
<mtsd> Hi Regenaxer!
<mtsd> Today is presentation day, this afternoon :)
<Regenaxer> Oh! Wow!
<mtsd> Looking forward to talking about Picolisp, it is going to be exciting
<Regenaxer> I wish you the very very best!
<mtsd> Thank you!
<Regenaxer> In London?
<mtsd> Here in Stockholm, London is next week. I am leaving on Sunday
<Regenaxer> Great
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<Nistur> mornin'
<Regenaxer> Hi Nistur
<Nistur> hulloo :)
<tankf33der> mtsd: will be public? slides? video?
<tankf33der> anything
<mtsd> No, it is a closed session. But I can share the slides and the talk on the mailing list, if you wish?
<mtsd> I don't think there is going to be video, but you never know what people are up to with their smartphones these days ;)
<tankf33der> mtsd: of course publish everything.
<tankf33der> and post to reddit.
<mtsd> Reddit is scary, haha
<mtsd> But we can give it a go
<mtsd> Just need to proof read one extra time first
<freemint> Good morning
<Nistur> not so sure about the 'good' part... but hey/
* Nistur passes out Haribo to everyone
* freemint thinks Nistur knows how to make Germans happy
<Nistur> freemint: Haribo macht Kinder froh, und Erwachsene ebenso
* Nistur wonders if he got the spelling right
<freemint> i am not sure about the , but the rest is fine
<Nistur> My grandmother's house was near the Haribo factory in Solingen, so she used to get me a lot of Haribo when I was younger
<Nistur> also, unrelated, a lot of Kinder Surprise eggs
<Nistur> One time she got a huge egg carton, must have been bigger than 15, filled with them, for my sister and me
<freemint> where are you from?
<Nistur> freemint: my family is from around Solingen (depends how far back you go, but for a couple of generations, Solingen and Düsseldorf. My parents both studied in München though, and I was born down there. Moved to UK when I was 2 though
<freemint> do you have a Deutsche Staatsbürgerschaft?
<freemint> also any counter intuitive insights in to Brexit?
<Nistur> yep, when we moved to UK, we couldn't have applied for British citizenship without losing German citizenship automatically (if, for whatever reason, we got denied British citizenship then we'd have been left with nothing) so we didn't do it then. Since then Germany allowed dual nationality with EU citizens, so we could apply, but I didn't, because it would gain me nothing (German passport is more
<Nistur> powerful than British one, and there's no limits to me working here)
<Nistur> and Brexit is a shambles. It's a total mess. No-one has any idea what's going to happen. They keep saying that EU citizens already here will be fine, but I don't think there's any proof of that. I don't think it will bother me _too_ much as my wife (Belarusian) has just got British Citizenship, so if we decide to stay (we're looking at moving out, maybe Austria as it's pretty) then if there ARE problems,
<Nistur> I can always be here as her dependent
<freemint> oh the legendary German passport
<Nistur> but Brexit is a joke. I think the best thing that can come out of it now, is that UK will go in a huff and walk out with no deal, realise EU was actually good for it in a few years and come snivelling back. I'm not saying EU is perfect, but it's the best option available... also UK won't have as many concessions if they have to re-apply for membership, which will make UK stop being so haughty about their
<Nistur> place in the world
<Nistur> Germany, beaten only by Singapore in power :P
<Nistur> I'm surprised USA is so high again. It's climbed in the past few weeks
<Nistur> UK is now rank 4
<ubLIX> my passport has +4 ranged attack, and it makes a decent coffee
<ubLIX> wth is passport 'power' then?
<Nistur> ubLIX: the website explains :P It's the visa-free score. How many countries you can go to with no visa, and how many you're allowed to get a visa on arrival
<Nistur> basically, how many countries like your country/passport enough :P
<ubLIX> hm. makes sense
<ubLIX> *reactivates lurk mode*
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<freemint> ubLIX @Lurkmode no way, i activate my trap card: "What do you use PicoLisp for?"
<ubLIX> just the occasional dabble (i'm no lisp guru). thought it would be nice to have something lighter than racket
<freemint> and how did you discover it?
<ubLIX> can't remember. ycombinator link probably
<freemint> ok cool feel welcomed
<Nistur> Welcom to #picolisp, we have Haribo.
<ubLIX> ty
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<rick42> hello! how is everyone?
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<Regenaxer> Hi rick42! Welcome back!!
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<freemint> i am fine too rick42
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<rick42> Hi Regenaxer and freemint!
<rick42> saw your emails on the ML recently
<rick42> i liked thorsten's observation that picolisp dev usually works "from the inside out": you start in the repl and then you call the editor from within the repl when you want to edit a source file. whereas emacs donks are used to working "from the outside in" (although one can very well use emacs in the "inside out" method).
<Regenaxer> yep
<freemint> is donks a "Schimpfwort"
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<Regenaxer> freemint, yes, sounds a bit like
<grp> rick42: well... excuse me for working from an environment where I can do decent and eficcient multiline editing while still being able to (re)eval and run code with a keystroke. Such shameless and self centered remark is not appreciated
<rick42> grp: huh?
<rick42> i'm an emacs user :)
<grp> emacs donks?
<rick42> i'm a donk too
<grp> define donk
<rick42> sorry
<rick42> it's just an "inside" defintion. should have said "doodd" or "dudes"
<grp> indeed
<grp> sorry, I've got a short fuse lately
<rick42> hehe np :)
<rick42> my fault
<rick42> yes, I think beneroth, C-Keen, tj64 (Thorsten), myself, and a few others I'm forgetting are emacs users here. Now, I add you to my list, grp! Nice to meet a fellow emacs user!
* grp made picolisp-mode
<rick42> i use tj64's picolisp-mode (from gh) as opposed to the one bundled with picolisp
<grp> tj64 continued it
<rick42> ah great! thanks!
<grp> honestly, it still has rough edges to this day but I can't find time nor motivation to get my hands on it
<rick42> noticed that org babel has ob-picolisp.el. are you repsonsible for that too, grp?
<grp> no
<grp> the latest was picolisp-tsm.el
<grp> after that I didn't mantain it any longer
<rick42> ah
<rick42> thanks for your work on that... of which we are the continual beneficiaries!
<grp> it's good that it's appreciated, though we were so few back then that I mostly put it together for myself and a friend
<grp> we kind of missed the workflow
<rick42> it's "the itch once scratched" that keeps on giving! :)
<grp> there was some work by... can't recall atm, towards slime integration
<grp> but never really used it
<rick42> it works fine just the way it is now: I eval a form and it runs pil (if it's not running already). i like the simplicity of it. then I write small functions and test them -- they are easy to debug then too.
<grp> I know, right? ;¬D
<grp> still... I haven't written much picolisp lately. But I have a nice task at hand I'm planning to do with pil. If it bothers me enough maybe I'll fix the inferior-picolisp.el to stop erasing the prompt
<grp> among other annoyances
<grp> that I can't recall atm but surely will bite me in the rear when I get cracking
<rick42> ("donk" is a term I use with a small circle of friends. it's short for "donkey" but it isn't pejorative/bad. for us, it's a term of respect and endearment. that's why we call ourselves donks. a donk, like a donkey, puts the burden on their back and just gets things done (as opposed to people who just talk); but unlike a donkey, donks are not stupid. again, my fault. it is an "inside" term that i just let slip out. :
<rick42> )
<rick42> grp: all the best with your pil project!
<rick42> grp: i want to write pil for work, but the guys there are Windows users and well ... Windows is just a killjoy all around. :) plus, i'm not smart enough like joebo to figure out how the port could work
<grp> right, it sucks. Last time I had to do anything serious in windows I did it in haskell
<grp> it's seamless in windows
<grp> though you don't get some unix goodies
<rick42> grp: +1 <3 haskell
<grp> want to try idris one of these days, but... I'm mostly tired so I indulge myself with other, less tasking activities
<grp> s/tasking/demanding
* grp sighs
<grp> I'm no longer fond of haskell
* rick42 reads about idris now
<grp> been piling up many qualms and it just sucks
<grp> last time I wrote haskell for real, had to write MonadTransControl instances for a couple of monad transformers and it made me question the sanity of the whole model
<grp> it really did
<rick42> ouch. that sucks
<grp> sometimes I think a strong typing lends itself to empowering bizarre pricks into building complex non-intuitive abstractions for the sake of mathematical wonder and nose lifting
<grp> which is just not practical
<rick42> lol -> "for the sake of mathematical wonder and nose lifting"
<grp> it's painful, specially when needing to add an extra layer to the whole stuff, if it even can be solved with just that...
<rick42> yeah, there's def a line to cross there
<Regenaxer> wow!
<Regenaxer> impressive wording
<rick42> :) grp is on a roll!
<grp> ('cause you can't access higher layers in a transformer stack, so you can't make monadic effects inter-dependent between layers)
<Regenaxer> yeah
<Regenaxer> I never grasped haskell
<grp> don't try, will only ruin your well polished skill
<Regenaxer> ok :)
<grp> I cringe when I look at my own haskell source
<Regenaxer> The only time I tackled it when I translated the PI generator
<Regenaxer> misc/piDigits.l
<Regenaxer> is a 1:1 buildup from haskell iirc
<Regenaxer> hmm I don't remember well, perhaps just the algo
<grp> most haskell snippets are trivial to understand. Problem is when you try to do anything more complex: you basically need to awkwardly re-add everything that's been stripped from the language, like mutability, variables, eager evaluation
<rick42> "# Spigot algorithm (Jeremy Gibbons)" did Gibbons write it in haskell then?
<Regenaxer> At least that's the version I seemed to have found back then
<rick42> yeah mutability has it's place. sorry that has to be so difficult in haskell. also side-effecting IO. it's just weird
<Regenaxer> (not that I understood/understand the spigot algo at all)
<rick42> hehehe
<grp> everytime I hear/read someone going on about "referential transparency" and what not, I want to slap them with a brick
<grp> reason is:
<rick42> Regenaxer: yeah, the code is simple to read yet I don't grok how it is supposed to work / is correct. strange
<Regenaxer> T
<Regenaxer> It does a permanent change of the number base iirc
<grp> referential transparency is a useless concept. The moment you define even a simple monad that carries state (State for that matter), most people argue that such transparency is still there but guess what... *it's not*, because you reintroduce variables, and at any given point the state is hidden and you don't see it in the code unless you interpret the state at that point
<Regenaxer> Correct it seems, yes. I compared it to tables with digits of pi
<rick42> grp: T
<grp> also, state within the boundaries of a function definition is harmless
<grp> that's what some haskellers discovered (gotta give them a cookie for that), so they made the ST monad
<rick42> grp: T. my threshold is lower than hsakellers: if I can stare at a variable (reference) and I can't be surprised by how/what affects it, i'm happy. so, the more local the ref the better. that's it
* grp has been struggling with multi-dimensional type-tetris for too long
<rick42> lol
<rick42> bbl. nice talk!
<Regenaxer> See you rick42!
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* grp waves hand
* freemint updates to Oreo version probably,,,
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<razzy`> rick42: C137 :]
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<freemint> my phone survived the update
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<rick42> razzy`: hehe great show!
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