ChanServ changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | Channel Log: | Check also for more information
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<beneroth> hi all
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<tankf33der> щ.
<tankf33der> o/
<Regenaxer> Hi beneroth, tankf33der!
<beneroth> \o
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<Nistur> mornin'
<beneroth> Morning Nistur
<Nistur> it is!
<Nistur> it keeps happening
<beneroth> :)
<beneroth> quote of the day: We live in interesting times. Unfortunately, most people are not interested.
<Regenaxer> yes, a good one
<beneroth> heise comment
<beneroth> about EU not wanting to communicate better CO2 targets than promised in the Paris agreement, even when EU would reach this better targets automatically by enforcing the existing laws.
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<yunfan> beneroth: you could ask elon musk's help to escape to a new planet, like those ancient americans :D
<yunfan> btw, there's not too much co2 in the moon and mars :]
<ubLIX> only 96% CO2 on Mars !
<Regenaxer> Well, the atmosphere on Mars consists to 95% of CO2
<Regenaxer> oh!
<Regenaxer> but very low density ;en
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<beneroth> yunfan, if we could terraform moon and/or mars, or even just creating sustainable self-supporting settlements out there, then climate change on earth would be rather easy to deal with
<beneroth> earth will stay to be the most hostible and easiest to live on planet in our solar system at least for centuries if not forever.
<Regenaxer> Seems that terraforming Mars is not possible. Still not enough CO2
<beneroth> I just don't like the though of mass-slaughtering drought refugees within my lifetime. As far as I understand the issue, this is a likely outcome within the next decades.
<Regenaxer> correct, unfortunately
<yunfan> Regenaxer: beneroth a japan company were planning to build a moon city on the moon
<yunfan> Regenaxer: beneroth you and i could see that happen
<Regenaxer> ok, let's see
<beneroth> yunfan, plans and ideas are of nearly zero value as long as they are not implemented.
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<yunfan> beneroth: i dont think the technology is lack to build moon city
<yunfan> its just cost too much in the old days
<beneroth> yunfan, self-sustainable? I don't doubt the feasibility of a moon settlement. but I strongly doubt it would be able to exist without regular imports from earth.
<beneroth> btw longest time a human has spend in low gravity was like 6 months on ISS.
<beneroth> someone spending years in low gravity would probably not be able to come back into earth gravity without severe health issues (severe pain is already a thing for returning astronauts)
<beneroth> resources are much more easily available and transportable then in space :)
<beneroth> on earth
<yunfan> beneroth: i bet those people dislike to comeback
<yunfan> like the ancient americans dont want to back to british
<beneroth> wouldn't matter if they cannot anyway
<beneroth> many americans moved part time or a few years back to Britain or Ireland, following the footpaths of their heritage
<beneroth> if the supply deliveries from earth for such a space settlement stop for whatever reason, what do they do? running out or resources and then die?
<yunfan> maybe those who has small circle religion might be intersting of that
<beneroth> religion is mostly a social and psychological thing. it cannot alter economic realities.
<yunfan> you see, in the canada TV seris, "the expanse", they have a plot that the mormon church want to build a large space craft and do immigration
<yunfan> the same like the ancient americans
<beneroth> if we can set up a durable moon camp than we can setup cities in the equatorial deserts
<yunfan> beneroth: no, if we still live in earth, the global market would destroy people's intersting to do hardwork
<beneroth> I'm all for space exploration, but lets not forget pragmatic solutions over impractical dreams
<yunfan> but if we live in other planet, the long range will forced people to produce themselves
<beneroth> we have no concept of how such producing could take place.
<beneroth> we are working on it. e.g. vegetable farm in south pole station. but the vegetable we manage to grow there yet are still mostly luxury / psychological treat, not something to produce food to ensure food security.
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<yunfan> beneroth: lol, food is not a problem, it happend i'm a fans of hydroponic
<beneroth> it is still a problem. the vegetable grow station at south pole is hydroponic. it is not able (and will not in the foreseeable future) to produce food for nutrition/food security.
<yunfan> beneroth: even potato could be planted . the only problem is the current LED lights is not that power efficient
<yunfan> beneroth: that because the south pole has a kilometers thick shell which prevent the mineral mining
<beneroth> hydroponic currently also consumes to much water. and way too much electricity, yes. though electricity might be cheaper in space when you can set up giant solar panels.
<yunfan> but with in moon and mars, its not a problem
<yunfan> beneroth: no you were wrong, hydroponic consumes less water compared to dirt based solution
<yunfan> also there's aeroponic, which consume even much less
<yunfan> but you were right on power consuming
<beneroth> on earth hydroponic and aeroponic will not take up, only be a luxury fashion/play thing. it mainly optimises land use, but land is not the scarce thing in agriculture.
<yunfan> and yes, space solar might be cheaper because there's no other things to reduce the solar energy
<beneroth> and you can build bigger solar panels than on earth. way bigger.
<yunfan> beneroth: land is a thing in some situation even on earth, check out, and have a look of their ocean city plan
<yunfan> its just located at french polynesia
<yunfan> i wish i could have enought money to fly there
<beneroth> url doesn't work
<yunfan> hold on
<beneroth> yeah can work as a supply-dependent luxury settlement.
<beneroth> but we haven't managed yet to construct fully functional arcologies (autarc settlements, complete independent on outside deliveries) on earth.
<beneroth> thx
<yunfan> well, i'd agree its never as cheap as like you take a bus to work
<yunfan> even in the ancient days, many europeans just sell all of them have and buy a ticket to north american , isnt it?
<beneroth> yes, as do people now in syria to come to europe instead of dying in the war.
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<yunfan> the space technology just want to make another colony as a backup of our civilition
<beneroth> its not the poorest people coming, its the people who can afford such a travel.
<yunfan> i dont thin its goal is to move all of us to other planet
<beneroth> the backup can only work as a backup if it can function completely independent
<beneroth> as long as it is dependent on regular supplies from an earth civilisation, it is not a backup for said civilisation.
<yunfan> beneroth: i saw we need first have a try
<beneroth> T. but we should also spend some energy into not ruining our current civilisation.
<yunfan> like in the ancient days, you could die on the way to americans
<yunfan> but many one trys and now its your white guys's territory now
<yunfan> and now you create border and "chinese exclution act" to avoid our asian immigration
<beneroth> yes, but there was no other way. these days, people die on the ocean on the way to europe or also in asia (e.g. on way to china/australia) because they are not accepted on flights. and because the refugee analysis is done in the target countries, not in the source countries. there is no technical reason for this, just laziness.
<yunfan> i learned from this history that its better to land as earlier as possible
<yunfan> so i am very support the japanese's plan :D
<beneroth> how do you support it in practice, beside being a fan? :)
<yunfan> at least you cant recognize us from japanese :D
<yunfan> beneroth: in heart. but if they need my coding skills, i think i could be a volunteer
<yunfan> i see the mars rollers use cython nowadays
<yunfan> nasa has open sourced their code
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<beneroth> yunfan, here some ideas for how your coding skills could help:
<yunfan> beneroth: i dont worried about climatechange
<beneroth> how this?
<beneroth> I'm pretty worried.
<yunfan> beneroth: if the climate changed , of course like you worried, it would be warmmer, then my hometown would be very suitable for growing vegetables and fruit
<yunfan> beneroth: that's a good thing to meself. also a good thing to russia, they could turn much of their land into farmland i think
<beneroth> yes. and a lot of people of areas where the land is not suitable anymore to grow plants or even settle the whole year (because of unbearable heatwaves) will try to come to your land. what about that?
<beneroth> humanity will survive, short of a full nuclear war.
<beneroth> but what about our civilisation?
<yunfan> beneroth: i dont think they could come to my land, china has almost the most hard border and immigration policy
<beneroth> ok, so you kill the people at the border. many many people, if necessary, correct?
<yunfan> beneroth: no, the current countries who has nuclear bomb is limited
<yunfan> beneroth: just like all the countries does, isnt it?
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<yunfan> beneroth: if i went to europe, will you accept me without visa?
<beneroth> that doesn't make it any better. I would find it better that europe (and others) would deal differently with that.
<yunfan> beneroth: its just your ideas, unfortunately the fact is not like that.
<yunfan> also today many people died of hungry , will you accept to save them by cutting your food in half?
<beneroth> yep. official europe claims human rights while it does everything to make it harder for people in need. at least china and russia are not so hypocrites to claim to care about humans because of any intrinsic human dignity
<beneroth> we have enough food since at least the middle of the 90s
<beneroth> problem is logistics, not amount of food.
<yunfan> beneroth: i dont defend for china goverment, because its evil
<yunfan> but in traditional chinese culture, we also encourage people to help themselves
<yunfan> that;s why i dislike european's high welfare system, and i prefer USA's
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<beneroth> well USA has the opoid crisis with more people dying yearly now than people died of AIDS at the maximum of the AIDS crisis.
<beneroth> and the opoid crisis is pretty specific to USA and pretty surely a result of their health system
<beneroth> they have a culture of taking strong pain medicine for every bit of pain. this culture was mainly created by marketing and medicine companies claiming that stuff is not addictive.
<beneroth> problem is, it is pretty addictive. and when people get addicted to it (after they had some health issue where they got this painkillers), they switch eventually to cheaper heroin or blackmarket painkillers.
<beneroth> in europe the barrier for getting such painkillers is much higher. hospital is just sending you home with some pain and thats okay.
<beneroth> also the US health system is much more expensive than the europeans ones, for numerous misaligned incentives and reasons.
<beneroth> btw e.g. in Switzerland health insurance is not paying dentist, dentist you have to pay yourself. reasoning is that this should give incentive to people to care about their teeth more.
<beneroth> if it really works out or not is not completely sure (poor people often just don't go to the dentist until it becomes a real problem, and than it might be more expensive also for public welfare system all in all)
<beneroth> yunfan, most european welfare systems have historically grown out of self-help organisations created initially by private people, not the state.
<yunfan> beneroth: well i think we would see in the next decade
<beneroth> what do you predict?
<yunfan> i think the european's high welfare system might collapse in some of the EU member
<yunfan> but maybe us chinese version will collapse earlier. who knows.
<yunfan> i dislike high welfare, i am classical freedomist
<yunfan> but maybe you guys could make a good use of the middle east immigration, and support for another decade
<beneroth> how to deal with people with born disabilities which were not a result of any of their choices or responsibilities? how to deal with such persons? should they pay all themselves, and just die when they cannot afford treatment?
<yunfan> beneroth: if people use dying as the reason, then we should be in communisty socient immediately to satisfied them
<yunfan> this time, its medical serivce
<beneroth> in most european countries people go nuts for this little bit of middle east immigration they had so far. which is probably a joke compared to what climate change could trigger in few decades.
<yunfan> next time, it would be food, money, house
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<beneroth> it boils down to viewing humans having an intrinsic value or view them just as resources for the powerful to play with.
<yunfan> beneroth: well alghouth i dislike some of the muslim groups, you need to accept that there's much religon culture in your european land, than us china
<beneroth> T
<yunfan> its never a problem for you guys to join them or for them to join you
<yunfan> but in china, its really a big problem. the fusion processing might caused many collise i think
<beneroth> and there are problems both with current population and with immigrants which needs to be addressed. but I think better solutions than simplistic "us or them" are possible with a bit effort.
<beneroth> well china is a multi-culture nation historically. only that the state is working on destroying all non-Han chinese cultures. or so it seems to me, I might be not informed enough.
<yunfan> beneroth: of course its better to both sides talk with each other, but in your society, you were too kindness to them. what cant you talk to a guy who dont admire your talking right?
<yunfan> beneroth: its ok, i agree with your judging on china
<yunfan> for eg, i live in south china and i think i am a han people, but han nation not live here thousand years ago
<yunfan> what happend to those ancients?
<yunfan> btw, what's your attitude to genetic modify technology
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<beneroth> I'm unsure about it. for one thing, it could be pretty useful, e.g. the golden rice thingy (trying to make rice more nutritious) or adaptions to deal with climate change. on the other hand, its a topic which is extremely complicated, extremely full of possible side-effects (in general, not necessarily on a specific gmo-ed plant), and all in all not as well understood as it probably should be.
<beneroth> I'm all for science doing research and experiments in that field.
<yunfan> unlike you, i am willing to support this technology by buying modified bean oil
<beneroth> I'm pretty sceptical against big companies working with that stuff, e.g. doing patents on it (patents on biological stuff is probably even more insanity than patents on software, I think), and the big companies have a lot of incentives to produce gmo plants without ensuring that all safety and potential side-effects are understood.
<beneroth> see monsanto et al.
<yunfan> and i think genetic modify plants would be the key for space colony
<beneroth> possibly
<beneroth> gmo products are forbidden in most of EU, though gmo bacteria is often used to generate ingredients which are widely used in food industry also in europe.
<yunfan> dont worry about big company, one thing i had learnt from software developing is that big company is not always winner in tech domain
<beneroth> no, bit in law and patent domain :)
<beneroth> but that is kinda a separate issue, agreed
<yunfan> haha, that require an enviroment that has patent law
<yunfan> for eg, new zealand goverment seems abandoned software pattent
<beneroth> as far as I know, china is thought to be probably the leading country on gmo technology. but china mostly does not publish their research, they keep it for when they have to roll it out to fight against famines.
<yunfan> why cant use do that in the future space colony too?
<yunfan> i dont know, but china has a large group who against GMO
<beneroth> ok? I was not aware of that
<beneroth> fear of uncontrolled side effects ? or religion or other reasons?
<yunfan> well china is not a country that law means anything
<beneroth> I think it is a bit a similar story then with nuclear technology. great stuff, but the most useful parts are also the most dangerous and the least understood parts.
<yunfan> so such groups has many power to prevent GMO research, they used to destroy the plants for testing
<yunfan> and got none punishment
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<aw-> hmmm... the problem with GMO is there aren't any studies which show the good/bad effects of them. The people/countries who frown on GMO products are the ones who are simply waiting for more research before saying "ok, this is safe"
<beneroth> aw-, T
<aw-> Japan is also very anti-GMO. Imported products can't be derived from GMO they get banned/rejected at the border. The downside is there's many products we don't have access to unless it's grown locally.
<aw-> (ex: flaxseed)
<beneroth> this is another fundamental difference between e.g. US culture and european culture. In Europa, its only ok when its proven to not be dangerous. In USA, its ok as long as it is not proven to be dangerous.
<aw-> beneroth: yup, huge difference
<aw-> i'm on the EU side for that
<aw-> for a space colony, it's probably the only way to go
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<beneroth> I think we can see with the example of DuPont / Teflon case is a good illustration of the problems with the US approach.
<aw-> or you know.. cigarettes?
<beneroth> the people first figuring out that something is dangerous are most likely the researchers of the producing company, which have high incentives to keep it secret
<beneroth> aw-, haha oh yes
<beneroth> or big oil.
<beneroth> they were working since the 60s on the propaganda front to keep science and public opinion confused
<beneroth> speed/efficiency vs. stability/safety
<beneroth> well or pure greed & exploitation :)
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<aw-> same situation with meat, eggs, dairy now
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<beneroth> wow
<beneroth> aw-, what about importing of non-GMO products into Japan? is there not enough available within meaningful distances?
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<beneroth> wow, I was not aware that NASA puts their stuff on GitHub. cool!
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<razzy> funny and nice :]
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<aw-> beneroth: Japan imports tons of shit
<aw-> even white rice
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<aw-> because the Japanese govnt is lead by an idiot
<aw-> dude Japan doesn't even make its own solar panels anymore
<aw-> it's all from China
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<aw-> they are making more lax rules on imports while increasing the price and taxes on domestic products,.. so people don't _want_ to buy domestic anymore
<rick42> hello all!
<Regenaxer> Hi rick42!
<aw-> rick42: hello!
<rick42> are beneroth and aw- getting into imports/exports lol
<rick42> hi Regenaxer! hi aw-!
<Regenaxer> rick42: Very true in that blog post!
<rick42> ah yes
<rick42> "Software Disenchantment"
<Regenaxer> T
<rick42> nice blog post
<Regenaxer> yeah
<rick42> he's "preaching to the choir" here but nice to see :)
<Regenaxer> Really mysterious how everything grows and grows
<rick42> like he said: LAZY! :)
<Regenaxer> upsi, must go, bbl
<rick42> ok cu!
<aw-> omg this post is hilarious
<aw-> and sad
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<rick42> aw-: agreed. nice way of putting it
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<beneroth> aw-, thats a new aspect of incompetence of Japanese gov I didn't knew about
<beneroth> sad
<beneroth> yo rick42
<aw-> beneroth: they are trying to increase inflation, in order to get more taxes
<beneroth> wtf=
<aw-> but it's backfiring because people's salaries aren't increasing, so people "feel" like they have less money and things are costing more.. so instead of spending more, they are searching for cheaper alternatives for everything, even if that means "importing from China"
<beneroth> natural
<beneroth> people are usually more rational than it looks at first. one has to look at the specific practical incentives and pressures.
<beneroth> also how to make more tax with inflation? isn't that just resulting with a higher number with a lower value anyway?
<aw-> well anyways, this problem is mostly self-inflicted, because only 50% of Japanese people actually vote during elections
<aw-> beneroth: no, because they increased the sales tax from 5% to 8%, and plan to go to 10% next year
<beneroth> sounds like most of Japanese gov are as dumb/corrupt as the tepco overseers
<beneroth> oh ok
<aw-> yes
<beneroth> so you say, Japanese have the gov they deserve
<aw-> and there's financial incentive given to companies (ex: agriculture) to create products for industry as opposed for consumption, which leads to increased prices for many things such as rice
<aw-> so shopping at the supermarket you notice price of items keeps increasing
<aw-> beneroth: i wouldn't say "deserve"
<aw-> there's a lot of promises made by politicians, you know.. like in every country
<aw-> so if they say "we'll give more money for healthcare", then all the old people go and vote
<aw-> but if the young healthy ones are like "we don't care about that"
<aw-> none of them are saying "we'll lower by 10x the cost of education"
<beneroth> I see
<aw-> the goal, it seems, is to keep old people alive longer, at the expense of having less people enrolling in post-secondary education because it costs too much
<beneroth> yeah I think western world will pay with interest the downscaling of education everywhere
<aw-> what do you mean?
<beneroth> most western countries seem to decrease investment into education for 2 decades or more now
<aw-> well, you mean the US?
<aw-> we have practically free education in Canada
<beneroth> I don't know about Canada.
<aw-> anyone can go to Uni
<beneroth> US is already in trouble because of it, I believe ahaha
<beneroth> its also practically free in Germany and Austria I think.
<beneroth> I have the impression that the quality and investment into education is going down in western europe
<aw-> well quality is another topic
<beneroth> but this might be wrong. I haven't looked at any statistics or studies.
<beneroth> well the important part.
<beneroth> sure you can still invest a lot by e.g. buying iPads for whole schools.
<aw-> i don't know how a country can expects its people to excel in life if they require those people to go broke/bankrupt/indebt for education
<beneroth> doesn't really give students a better understanding of technology, more likely grows more sheepish consumers
<beneroth> haha, T
<aw-> haha yeah those things are stupid
<aw-> if everyone has equal access to education, then your entire society prospers
<beneroth> I consider USA a lost case. I think they will require a least a century before becoming civilised again (what I consider civilised). there are surely civilised pockets but all in all its a lost cause, I believe.
<aw-> well their current president is trying some things ;)
<aw-> not entirely bad IMO
<beneroth> T. but it looks more often to be clever by accident then by consciousness planning
<aw-> who knows, i try not to involve with US politices
<aw-> politics*
<aw-> ok it's getting late, i should sleep
<beneroth> the problem with US politics is, it involves with you :D
<aw-> reserve this channel for code talk
<beneroth> but I agree, slippery sloop to discuss with not much value :)
<beneroth> good night!
<aw-> tomorrow i work on optimizing my code ;)
<beneroth> good! :)
<aw-> g'nite
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<rick42> aw-: good night!
<rick42> beneroth: yo
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<rick42> bbl
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<beneroth> The Rails upgrade took a year and a half. This was for a few reasons. First, Rails upgrades weren’t always smooth and some versions had major breaking changes. Rails improved the upgrade process for the 5 series so this meant that while 3.2 to 4.2 took 1 year, 4.2 to 5.2 only took 5 months.
<beneroth> Ruby on Rails (RoR) is a popular web framework and the main thing to make people use the ruby language
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