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<beneroth> Good morning all
<beneroth> Regenaxer, look at the types of businesses these days:
<Regenaxer> Good morning beneroth!
<Regenaxer> A PDF-filler?
<beneroth> SaaS / Web-App to add input fields to an PDF file, and some other PDF functionality
<Regenaxer> yeah
<Regenaxer> I won't trust
<beneroth> same. and there are free/cheap programs available to install locally for such tasks
<Regenaxer> T
<Regenaxer> For some people it may seem convenient and easier
<beneroth> just as an example for a SaaS web app. some stuff makes more sense, others is just maybe offering some better comfort/UI for the lazy ones (or they just don't know about other ways)
<beneroth> aye
<beneroth> maybe it is
<Regenaxer> T
<beneroth> I just stumbled on it because someone I know distantly apparently works now there
<beneroth> SaaS is part useful evolution and part bullshit products
<beneroth> your restaurant menu generator is still in use?
<Regenaxer> No, we did not continue. But Josef plans to restart the project soon
<Regenaxer> Needs some tuning, and marketing
<beneroth> GUI and "modern looking" (whatever that is) is usually pretty important for "first impression"
<beneroth> polish is more important than the actual tech
<beneroth> we tend to be better at tech than polish and marketing money, so we probably should compete mainly on functionality
<Regenaxer> right
<beneroth> you probably should get a graphic designer into the project if you or Josef happens to know one
<Regenaxer> yep
<beneroth> could make some review and maybe propose some improvements for website / pdfs from that perspective
<beneroth> how is the rest going? no known bugs in pil/pilBox currently? :)
<beneroth> I'm sick once more, very annoying. already getting better, I think I can program today (which I would really like, some interesting picolisp coding to do).
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<Regenaxer> oh! Despite the nice weather?
<beneroth> yeah, double annoying.
<Regenaxer> :(
<Regenaxer> PilBox improved a lot
<beneroth> some friends and gf were sick. and I sleept a night with open window last weekend, that was too cold.
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<beneroth> The new yorker claims to be the one having Linus pressured in accepting the CoC and taking some time off:
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<Regenaxer> There are still problems with PilBox on some devices. At least (older) Samsungs with 32 bit, but I observed some on a Blackberry
<Regenaxer> I'd be glad about more feedback
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<Regenaxer> It is the new "Download" feature
<beneroth> ok. arguably to be expected with the wide variety of devices and differences/bugs in them.
<aw-> beneroth: :(
<beneroth> freemint could probably test on his Blackberry?
<Regenaxer> Now PIL Zips can be installed directly
<beneroth> nice
<Regenaxer> ie not via the browser
<beneroth> that's a good UX improvement
<Regenaxer> yes, should be a lot easier
<beneroth> previous process was a bit hard to grok at frist
<beneroth> aye
<Regenaxer> But the arm32 plugin still needs to be passed manually
<Regenaxer> yeah
<Regenaxer> Now (at least on 64 bits), just PilBox from Play Store is needed
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<Regenaxer> Then enter "calc" or "radio" etc in that field and press download
<beneroth> aw-, the stories main theme is "Linus and linux project are anti-women", but then contains lines like "Squire told me that she found few examples of gender bias." "Squire told me that she found few examples of gender bias."
<beneroth> “He is an equal-opportunity abuser,” she said."
<beneroth> 10% commits by woman is apparently a bad value for a software project.. I'm not so sure actually.
<aw-> beneroth: that article is so much bullshit
<beneroth> Regenaxer, nice
<aw-> although it did confirm my suspicion that the Linux Foundation is a huge money grab and they don't know how to manage their donations. Very happy not to donate there.
<beneroth> aw-, yep. While I agree that Linus attacks were often over the top, I still have to find one where he personally attacked someone. Also you can't find any instance where we didn't accept something because of the committers background, as long as the code was good and meaningful.
<beneroth> yeah, there "sorry linux is an old project, hard to influence" statement is... pretty illoyal
<beneroth> aw-, what is often forgotten in this debate is that some people are payed (Google, Microsoft, others) to repeatedly try to get their shit into Linux, so Linus starts slurring to get the point across, because those people are fucking payed to annoy him again and again.
<Regenaxer> afp
<aw-> beneroth: yes I know, i've been following the Linux MLs for quite some time.. maybe 15 years
<aw-> anyways these discussions are useless, just meant to distract us
<beneroth> no, not only that. It looks like the creationists strategy to me: build up the impression that there is an actual conflict and debate.
<beneroth> and then use third party audience to create pressure.
<beneroth> it's about winning in front of an audience (, not about winning with proper arguments
<beneroth> oh
<beneroth> I just hope we won't have to thank RMS for GPL once more when the pc-crowd realises they could put their stuff into the software licenses.
<beneroth> I don't disagree with your point, though :)
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<Nistur> g'mornin'
<beneroth> Morning dear Nistur :)
<Regenaxer> ret
<Regenaxer> Hi aw-, Nistur
<Nistur> hulloo :)
<Nistur> how's tricks?
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<beneroth> Nistur, who's tricks?
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* Nistur blinks
<beneroth> :D
<beneroth> [OT/social] I believe I came a step further in the SJW (marginalized humans first) vs. Hacker-Meritocracy (only quality of product/output/code is judged/counts, humans and politics don't matter) puzzle. Apparently, some SJW proponents believe that the Hacker-Meritocracy proponents wants to use meritocracy to organise humans in general, not just IT projects, and therefore they feel threatened and fight against meritocracy as organisational model and feel ju
<beneroth> stified to overthrow existing rules in software communities and replace it with "we like everyone and everyone should feel welcome except the ones who disagree"
<beneroth> or so is my current newest hypothesis.
<freemint> test what?
<freemint> beneroth I am porting the T-Kernel but most if the really good stuff was in the TRON-PROJEKT
<beneroth> hey freemint :)
<freemint> beneroth you said there is something I can test
<beneroth> context? can't recall
<freemint> test on his blackberry
<beneroth> ah right!
<beneroth> Regenaxer has an issue in PilBox (Android App), where some specific download action fails on some devices, including an incident with a blackberry. I figured maybe you could test it with your Blackberry.
<beneroth> do you have PilBox installed?
<freemint> an old version yes
<beneroth> yeah you would need to update first, I think he changed it just yesterday
<beneroth> and probably for the rest a fresh install is preferable.. or at least one where some of the pilBox apps (e.g. calculator etc?) are not yet installed
<beneroth> <Regenaxer> It is the new "Download" feature <Regenaxer> Now PIL Zips can be installed directly
<beneroth> <Regenaxer> Now (at least on 64 bits), just PilBox from Play Store is needed
<beneroth> <Regenaxer> Then enter "calc" or "radio" etc in that field and press download
<freemint> beneroth I Ve heard fo an interesting analysis. "SWJ are not against meritocracy. They doubt that merit even exists. Merit is just a social construction by people in power to justify their power position and an excuse to " blame the victim " when there is not an fair representation. There is no valuable activity. all human activity is intriscly a power game between groups. This justifies to use group pressure and power for or means.
<beneroth> interesting. Well I agree with the SJW opinion that merit is in most contexts hard to measure and that meritocracy as a general model to organise public society is BS. but that does not apply to the context of software projects.
<beneroth> meritocracy in software projects was not installed or planned, it just happened, as merits are rather obvious available for measurement, and its just natural for hackers/engineers to split the work up by knowledge and previously shown merit
<freemint> I do not agree with "meritocracy in FOSS is emergent"
<beneroth> that statement you posted sounds extremely "social constructivist" too me. which surely overlaps with SJW a lot. social constructivism boils down to "reality is made up by social consensus", and while this holds some truths about social stuff, it doesn't work when generalized to everything. its in direct conflict with hard sciences, which assume an ultimate objective reality/truth (even if it might not be possibility to completely directly experience it)
<beneroth> freemint, no? so ok, lets have a look at picolisp community
<beneroth> why has Regenaxer the most say?
<beneroth> why do we listen to tankf33der when its about algorithm functions?
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<beneroth> for me this is obviously meritocracy
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<freemint> beneroth all people coming to Picolisp were most likely involved with FOSS before so everybody came here with the meritocracy expectation he learned on other projects
<freemint> it is a meritocracy
<beneroth> and its not cementing any hierarchy. there is an implicit hierarchy in FOSS communities (as in all social groups), but its fluent
<beneroth> well I doubt that Regenaxer was much involved with many FOSS projects. and the only other community I was part of long time was a hobby game dev community, not exactly FOSS.
<freemint> How would you define emrgent?
<freemint> (I introduced the term I know but ...)
<beneroth> nobody stand up and said or wrote "this is how it should be". it just happened.
<beneroth> if someone here has a question about using (native), first thing is looking up aw- tutorial or getting pointed to it. then asking aw- or Regenaxer.
<beneroth> why? because they already proved knowledge in that field.
<beneroth> nobody else is stopped or has barriers to prove also knowledge in that field and come into a similar role/position.
<Regenaxer> ret
<beneroth> you just need to do the work to achieve any role in the community you like.
<beneroth> wb Regenaxer
<Regenaxer> PilBox should update automatically from PlayStore
<beneroth> Regenaxer, tell me to shut up when the OT talking gets to spammy, thx :)
<Regenaxer> No problem at all!
<Regenaxer> I was just busy
<beneroth> sure, no worries :)
<Regenaxer> Clicking on the settings icon should show PilBox Version 20180918
<freemint> I got the latest version too.
<Regenaxer> cool
<Regenaxer> There is a Download button on the first tab
<freemint> how did you become aware of problems on blackberry and do you have more detailed model number?
<Regenaxer> Ah, I don't know the blackberry version
<Regenaxer> Installing the ZIP the old way did not work
<Regenaxer> So I made this Download on my way back from Köln on Monday
<Regenaxer> If you type "hello" in the text field and download, it should install the hello world app immediately
<Regenaxer> "public"ly available demo apps are calc crash demo hello radio
<freemint> That worked for me but ... there a two kinds of blackberry phones "running native android" to and "blackberryOS with android emulation layer" i suspect trouble will arise with the second
<Regenaxer> Ah, I see
<Regenaxer> I don't know, it was the CEO of that customer
<Regenaxer> freemint, on your blackberry it works?
<beneroth> he has an android blackberry
<Regenaxer> The other problem on that phone was
<Regenaxer> that it did not recognize a QR code scanner
<Regenaxer> despite one was installed
<beneroth> older blackberry have the blackberry OS (whatever the name is, proprietary) which had an android emulator in it.
<Regenaxer> ok
<beneroth> this older blackberries fit the time when it was fashion for upper managers to have blackberries
<Regenaxer> It was not a real problem on Monday, I could do the demos on mine
<Regenaxer> yeah, now they have iPhones :(
<beneroth> aye
<beneroth> blackberry is now a niche just a bit less dead yet than windows phones, afaik
<Regenaxer> Still some have a hardware keyboard ;)
<Regenaxer> What a waste!
<freemint> beneroth i might want to have word with that
<freemint> why a waste?
<beneroth> well maybe they recover now with android phones, but its not the same thing anymore :)
<Regenaxer> hardware costs, space on the device
<Regenaxer> (as opposed to Penti)
<freemint> i hope that they get back to there original design
<beneroth> Regenaxer, I miss the hardware keyboard of the nokia N900 (and its linux os which was not an android)
<Regenaxer> ok :)
<freemint> Regenaxer phone screens are to small for penti
<Regenaxer> not today's phones
<beneroth> Regenaxer, I agree you solved the major issues with touch keyboards through penti.
<Regenaxer> all at least 5 inch
<beneroth> but still.. arrows keys...
<Regenaxer> 5 inch is enough
<Regenaxer> Penti has arrow keys too
<beneroth> yes
<Regenaxer> all navigation keys
<beneroth> and paste. I happen to paste by accident with penti xD
<freemint> beneroth you might be interested in "dragonbox pyra" it is in the final stages of development
<Regenaxer> hehe, yeah
<freemint> Regenaxer then i have to long fingers they did not fit on any phone i own comfortable
<Regenaxer> yes, hand size is an issue
<Regenaxer> I have rather small hands
<Regenaxer> so I can use on 5 inch (limit)
<Regenaxer> 6 is fine, I often use my wife's Nexus 6
<beneroth> well I supported the Neo900 project, even when their payment provider (FOSS org) kicked them out. but I don't believe it will result in anything.
<beneroth> freemint, interesting, thanks!
<Regenaxer> freemint, keep in mind that the circles do not need to fit
<Regenaxer> I have them clipped even on the tablet
<Regenaxer> if I position penti on the bottom right as I often do
<beneroth> freemint, though dragonbox pyra seems to be arm-32bit :/
<freemint> it is a very powerful 32-bit arm and as soon as the hardware is out they start working on the updrable cou board
<freemint> Regenaxer i might be buying a new android tablet soon. One with digital pen input so i will use penti there.
<Regenaxer> good :)
<Regenaxer> arm32 system work surprisingly fine with PilBox, only issue is installing emu first
<beneroth> nice
<freemint> It runs Debian first and later people will port android
<freemint> well i like my phone
<Regenaxer> That's the important thing
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<freemint> Regenaxer the qr code scanner did not work
<Regenaxer> In the 'demo' app?
<Regenaxer> Does it say "Please install QR-Code scanner" ?
<Regenaxer> ?
<Regenaxer> Or what do you mean with "did not work"?
<Regenaxer> More precise info please!
<Regenaxer> Hmm, it is not nice to interrupt people, and then to drop dead
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<freemint> oh sorry i think you asked me about the qr code scanner
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<freemint> the error is please install QR-code scanner enev though i have an qr code scanner installed
<freemint> also you could mentioned my name
<freemint> yes in the demo app
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<Regenaxer> ret
<Regenaxer> freeemint, yeah, sorry I did not ping you
<Regenaxer> OK, so "please install QR-code scanner" is all right
<Regenaxer> This message did not appear in the above case
<Regenaxer> You need an ZXing compatible scanner, eg. the app "Barcode Scanner", installed
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<aw-> oh i missed a nice BlackBerry discussion.
<aw-> beneroth: the "fashion for managers" is slightly off. I worked at a large corporation during that time and managed a BlackBerry Enterprise Server, every manager/exec had a BB and they were addicted to it like crack, mostly because it allowed them to work (reply to emails) 24/7. It wasn't a fashion as much as it was an amazing productivity boost, like having a 3rd arm.
<aw-> now with "smartphones", 95% of the phone features are distractions unrelated to work..
<beneroth> interesting
<aw-> the BB was all business
<beneroth> I never had a BlackBerry. I heard during the "fashion phase" (or whatever the term is), it also offered a free (no-cost) text message service before WhatsApp was a thing
<aw-> yes
<beneroth> makes sense
<aw-> BBIM
<aw-> sorry, BIM
<aw-> blackberry instant messenger, all you needed was the unique id of the other person's BB, and you could message directly (encrypted)
<aw-> it was end-to-end encryption before end-to-end became a buzzword, although it was never confirmed if RIM could fetch the private keys off your device and decrypt the messages on their network.. but technically the messages were encrypted/decrypted locally and "safe" over the wire
<aw-> i owned a handful of blackberries, from work and also because my best friend worked (still works) at RIM/BlackBerry
<aw-> and the hardware keyboard, as opposed to what Regenaxer thinks, was AMAZING]
<aw-> you never had to actually look at the screen, could easily type a full email during a meeting without anyone knowing haha
<aw-> anyways that was ~10 to 15 years ago.. crazy how time flies, now BlackBerry is the worst shit ever
<aw-> they advertise their phones "battery lasts up to 2 days".
<aw-> what a joke
<beneroth> nargh
<aw-> really wish they had remained focused on Enterprise mobile and rock solid QNX-based phones
<beneroth> aye
<aw-> now they're all over the place trying to compete in many places they don't belong
<beneroth> android market is mostly price competition, no?
<aw-> yes
<aw-> they jumped into a pool filled with sharks
<beneroth> bad competition to be in, unless one has already big pockets and/or other business to finance it
<beneroth> I see
<aw-> exactly
<beneroth> maybe they got too self-confident during their successful phase?
<aw-> no, i think they got too scared of business people switching to Android because they wanted more "apps"
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> therefore the emulator, and then killing the OS
<beneroth> like OS/2
<aw-> the thing is, i know everyone who switched to BB to Android desperately wanted to switch back to BB
<aw-> but by then they had destroyed the phone/OS and made it identical to Android at 2x the cost
<aw-> yep
<beneroth> yep
<aw-> or maybe they wanted to compete with iPhone?
<beneroth> like Google fails all the time?
<beneroth> you don't become luxury just by increasing prices.
<aw-> but iPhone didn't have Exchange integration.. so lots of people held onto their iPhones for personal, and BB for work.
<aw-> haha yeah
<aw-> dunno.. i don't know why BB execs thought "apps" were the most important thing, when in fact it was "the phone"
<beneroth> well
<beneroth> I ask myself the same about all smartphones theses days
<aw-> haha
<beneroth> I spent most of the day researching, reading, learning and discussing (with a friend who happens to have a different opinion than me on this) about the Linux CoC topic. that whole thing sent shockwaves through the scene internationally and german-speaking scene. interesting and complicate topic. many players with multiple agendas. attacks on the one guy who didn't sign the new CoC as of yet already started. weird.
<beneroth> I'm sick at home, so ok.
<aw-> ouch
<aw-> i've never signed a CoC for an OSS project, i refuse
<aw-> looks like it's becoming more of a mess in public now
<beneroth> the proponents often show a serious lack of empathy and its difficult to believe in their good faith when one does some deeper research after their past actions.
<beneroth> yeah.
<beneroth> (well also current actions, actually)
<beneroth> some people (even on the linux kernel list) brought up the viewpoint that overall the thing is more a US thing and US-internal cultural "war" spilling into internet communities.
<beneroth> I tend to agree.
<beneroth> good night aw- (or good day?)
<beneroth> I need to sleep. and get productive tomorrow.
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<aw-> beneroth: take care, get well