ChanServ changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | Channel Log: https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/ | Check also http://www.picolisp.com for more information
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<mtsd> Hello everyone
<tankf33der> o/
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<Regenaxer> Hi mtsd, tankf33der!
<mtsd> Hi Regenaxer!
<Regenaxer> Cool, also in #penti :)
<mtsd> I added the slides, and my presentation notes, to the wiki yesterday
<Regenaxer> Great
<mtsd> Of course, also in #penti :)
<Regenaxer> :)
<Regenaxer> simplicityandminimalisminsoftwaredevelopment
<tankf33der> mtsd: whats the link? make announce in ml
<mtsd> Yes, that is the link
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<mtsd> Long and complicated link for talk about simplicity and minimalism ;)
<Regenaxer> haha, true
<Regenaxer> This is to make the stress on simplicity even stronger ;)
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<mtsd> I had to pick a name, and as you say, stresses simplicity even stronger :)
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<beneroth> hi all
<Regenaxer> Hi beneroth!
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<mtsd> Hello beneroth!
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<freemint> good Morning Regenaxer
<beneroth> hi freemint
<Regenaxer> Hi freemint
<beneroth> sorry I didn't find the energy yet to look into your email. will do soonish.
<mtsd> There, announcement sent to the mailing list :)
<mtsd> Hi freemint!
<freemint> hi mtsd beneroth
<Regenaxer> mtsd, thanks!
<mtsd> Let's see what the community thinks :)
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<razzy> how much speedup would picolisp get if it was run by some kind of compiler :]
<razzy> i know, vague and bad question
<razzy> by rough percentage
<razzy> and no, i do not need it for anything
<Regenaxer> There is not even a rough percentage
<Regenaxer> it depends on the codi
<Regenaxer> code
<Regenaxer> If it does a lot of bignum calculations or I/O, it gains nothing
<Regenaxer> But as I said hundreds of times meanwhile, PicoLisp can't be compiled
<Regenaxer> The internal structures can't be called from compiled code
<beneroth> better ask what kind of speedup picolisp would gain from a hardware implementation
<Regenaxer> yes, better question
<beneroth> Regenaxer, any guesses what the speedup amd64 (x86) to ARM64 is ?
<Regenaxer> but also difficult to answea
<Regenaxer> no, even that
<Regenaxer> you can't compare
<beneroth> ok, too much dependent on the actual code, I see.
<Regenaxer> which clock speeds, cores, etc
<Regenaxer> not code, but hardware parameters
<beneroth> I must yet run into a performance issue with pil
<Regenaxer> Most important is caches
<razzy> Regenaxer: what can be done, is to rename names of every function and variable to have shortest possible names. would it be speedup?
<Regenaxer> yeah, no problem anyway
<beneroth> razzy, pil is easily on the level of python/java/ruby.
<razzy> i have no problem with performance of pil :]
<beneroth> razzy, it would, but deduplication of code (use functions instead of having the same code multiple times) makes a bigger difference
<beneroth> picolisp: better code runs better :)
<beneroth> also maintainability is a big feature to not lose sight of
<razzy> beneroth: i know, it would have to be automated proces. something like compilation.
<Regenaxer> razzy, renaming functions will not speed up execution
<Regenaxer> perhaps only 'load', but not measurably
<Regenaxer> Names are not used during execution
<Regenaxer> only as strings (the names)
<razzy> Regenaxer: soo, when you load everything to RAM,you replace names with codes :]
<beneroth> pointers
<beneroth> like C/C++
<beneroth> not replace.
<beneroth> use-instead.
<beneroth> name is a pointer to a cell / piece in RAM
<Regenaxer> razzy: doc64/structures
<Regenaxer> all is in cells
<razzy> i am out of depth, and out of time
<beneroth> as names point to a cell, we can use the cells memory address instead of looking it up first via the name
<razzy> :] sorry for bothering, but i have better pil idea
<beneroth> how can you know to have a better idea if you clearly haven't yet a good understanding of pil? :)
<Regenaxer> hehe, right
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<razzy> i cut several bad ideas, which is progress
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> but you can compare your ideas to pil VM without having grokked pil VM
<Regenaxer> Using long names is a bad idea for example ;)
<Regenaxer> But not for reasons of efficiency
<razzy> but why?
<Regenaxer> Except perhaps properties in DB
<Regenaxer> here the lenght counts a little
<Regenaxer> Why what?
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<beneroth> why is using long names bad, but not for reasons of efficiency (or storage space within DB) :)
<beneroth> I think that is the question
<Regenaxer> ah
<Regenaxer> readability :)
<beneroth> haha
<beneroth> thats subjective :P
<Regenaxer> T
<razzy> last question. does pil load everything at once? or does it load when needed
<beneroth> within a range of sane word lengths, with an arbitrary value for "sane"
<beneroth> razzy, it loads when you call (load)
<Regenaxer> yeah, but "sane" is again subjective
<beneroth> pil itself is a bash script with starts the picolisp binary and some libraries (.l files)
<razzy> and after it do not touch files
<razzy> ?
<Regenaxer> yes razzy, it is all under your control
<beneroth> after it does not touch files.
<beneroth> open "pil" in an editor
<beneroth> you can adapt the start script or make your own
<Regenaxer> You can write apps which load all code at once, or (normally) load only on demand
<beneroth> I'm using a mixture of both in my applications.
<Regenaxer> me too
<Regenaxer> app/er.l, app/lib.l and app/gui.l are loaded at startup. Everything else only whin needed (eg. clicked at)
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<razzy> oh boy :], more control that i can handle :]
<razzy> need for personal growth
<beneroth> don't underestimate yourself
<beneroth> just try and worry less.
<beneroth> it's really not as hard as it looks
<razzy> they are just 0 and 1 how hard can it be?
<razzy> simplest system possible :]
<razzy> :D
<beneroth> S-expr and plio are simpler :D
<Regenaxer> At least easier to understand than code of a turing machine
<beneroth> T
<razzy> plio?
<beneroth> picolisp binary format
<beneroth> plio us used for messaging between picolisp processes, and as data format for files, e.g. in pil database
<razzy> oh uh
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<razzy> i like S-expressions :]
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<razzy> imho the hierarchy could be much simpler
<Regenaxer> yes?
<razzy> well, can of worms. better leave be
<Regenaxer> Be creative!
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<beneroth> bb
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<razzy> ot, but beautifull music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ucK_C1YAnU
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