ChanServ changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | Channel Log: | Check also for more information
f8l has joined #picolisp
Haydos19 has joined #picolisp
Haydos19 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Trixis27 has joined #picolisp
Trixis27 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cpugenius6 has joined #picolisp
cpugenius6 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
insurgent_ has joined #picolisp
insurgent_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
NeoGeo6424 has joined #picolisp
NeoGeo6424 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dustyfresh2 has joined #picolisp
dustyfresh2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ubLIX has quit [Quit: ubLIX]
jinblack- has joined #picolisp
jinblack- has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
alexshendi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<cobax> when trying to run the ERP program from app/ I get: " cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
<Regenaxer> Hi cobx
<Regenaxer> You need to install libssl-dev I think
<Regenaxer> Hmm, should be by default in libc iirc, strange
<cobax> hi Regenaxer!
<Regenaxer> :)
<cobax> I will try to do apt-get install libssl-dev and try again!
<Regenaxer> ok
<cobax> Regenaxer: it worked and now I can run the ERP app successfully, thank you!
<Regenaxer> Perfect!
<cobax> as soon as I login I always get an error "Unable to connect" as it tries to go to http://localhost:59453/52776878158260174~!work?*Menu=+3&*Tab=+1&*ID=
<cobax> I'm running from a docker whose only enabled port is 8080
<cobax> I'm think I'd have to enable a whole range?
<cobax> I'm thinking*
<cobax> Regenaxer: what is the range of ports I would have to enable?
<Regenaxer> It is only localhost, to the external world 8080 is enough
<Regenaxer> Internally it uses the ephemeral ports
<Regenaxer> By default these are 32768 .. 61000
<cobax> well I get an error about port 59453 on the external world
<Regenaxer> (in Linux afaik)
<cobax> ok I'll try enabling those and see what happens
<Regenaxer> ah, right, your browser is external
<Regenaxer> yes
<Regenaxer> The "right" way is to start httpGate
<Regenaxer> then only 443 (and perhaps 80) is needed open
<cobax> what is httpGate ?
<Regenaxer> So don't open the other ports
<Regenaxer> see doc/httpGate.html
<cobax> does this " bin/httpGate 443 8080 pem/www.domain.key,pem/domain.crt" mean that when I run that command, those pem files, or whatever they are, are going to exist, or do I have to replace those strings?
<cobax> are they going to exist because I did "make gate" ?
<Regenaxer> No, you need your own pem files
<cobax> do you have a tutorial on how to create them?
<Regenaxer> eg by using Let's encrypt to get a certificate
<Regenaxer> See Let's encrypt
<Regenaxer> For now ignore it
<Regenaxer> Use only port 80
<Regenaxer> I start httpGate twice on my servers, on 80 (without pem) and 443
<cobax> I see
<Regenaxer> I start them usually in /etc/rc.local, the easiest way
<Regenaxer> together with other stuff as iptables
<cobax> I'm not that advanced, right now I'm just working to get the ERP example working
<Regenaxer> np
<Regenaxer> Just start as root bin/httpGate 80 8080
<Regenaxer> that's all
<Regenaxer> then it redirects requests to 80 to 8080
<Regenaxer> no config file needed
<cobax> I don't understand where the src folder is...
<cobax> how to go there and do "make gate"
<Regenaxer> Did you install PicoLisp from a TGZ?
<cobax> no, from apt-get
<Regenaxer> or is it in the distro?
<Regenaxer> ah
<Regenaxer> Then it is there already
<cobax> there where? what address?
<cobax> in /usr/src ? it's empty
<Regenaxer> no, the binary
<Regenaxer> moment
<Regenaxer> # /usr/lib/picolisp/bin/httpGate 80 8080
<cobax> ok it is there, but it returns to the prompt immediately
<cobax> is that correct?
<Regenaxer> yes, it is a background daemon
<Regenaxer> put this call into /etc/rc.local
<cobax> I know nothing about rc.local and how to handle that
<Regenaxer> ok
<Regenaxer> You see the process with $ ps -C httpGate
<cobax> ok so now it's running I go back to running pil as normal?
<Regenaxer> yes
<Regenaxer> Start app and connect the browser to http://localhost
<Regenaxer> (or whatever address)
<Regenaxer> no :port needed
<cobax> the problem is that now I'm now sure if I have to redirect also port 80 from docker to my host
<cobax> not sure*
<cobax> I'd rather just leave it using 8080 if there were a way
<Regenaxer> I would not expect so, but I never used docker
<cobax> to make it simple for me with docker
<cobax> well it's easier if I don't have to mess so much with docker. I already have port 8080 open there. can't we make httoGate just use that instead of 80 ?
<Regenaxer> No, the problem is not 80
<Regenaxer> it is the dynamically allocated (ephemeral) ports
<Regenaxer> Just try the above
<cobax> no, for me it is 80 the problem
<Regenaxer> http://<docker>
<cobax> pil is running inside a docker
<Regenaxer> Why?
<Regenaxer> yes
<cobax> and I mapped only port 8080
<cobax> not 80
<Regenaxer> httpGate too, right?
<cobax> I don't know what you're asking
<Regenaxer> You started httpGate in docker
<cobax> yes
<Regenaxer> perfect
<Regenaxer> just try with the browser
<cobax> I just did it doesn't work
<cobax> unable to connect
<cobax> no connection at all on port 80
<Regenaxer> which address?
<cobax> how could there be, I didn't allow docker to map por t80
<cobax> localhost
<Regenaxer> You mean port 80 in docker is not reachable?
beneroth has joined #picolisp
<Regenaxer> We need to ask somebody who knows docker
<Regenaxer> Perhaps beneroth! ;)
<beneroth> hi all. Hi Regenaxer :)
<cobax> no man, I just mean I don't want to mess with port 80...
<Regenaxer> or aw-, but he sleeps probably
<cobax> anyway I won't get this working :/
<cobax> too hard for me
<beneroth> No, I stay away from docker :)
<Regenaxer> You dont need to mess
<Regenaxer> you started it already
<cobax> I'm on a mac, I want comfort
<cobax> I just want to code in a way that works with minimum fuss
<Regenaxer> can you see httpGate running?
<cobax> yes
<Regenaxer> So you are done already
<cobax> but I go to localhost and nothing
<cobax> so not done
<Regenaxer> you started the pil app/ too?
<cobax> yes
<cobax> neither localhost nor localhost:8080 work
<Regenaxer> Is it really "localhost"?
<Regenaxer> docker?
<cobax> it was working localhost:8080 before
<Regenaxer> It has its own IP address I presume
<Regenaxer> ok
<beneroth> or netstat -tulpn
<beneroth> not sure if its available on mac, I think so
<Regenaxer> So it is not allowed to connect to 80?
<aw-> Regenaxer: i'm here
<cobax> yeah it doesn't work. it works like before. I can only go to 8080 on localhost. I click login, it goes to a strange port and breaks
<aw-> there's no way i'm sleeping at 3:45pm haha
<aw-> what's wrong?
<aw-> oh I see...
<aw-> cobax: stop messing with Docker, all problems solved
<cobax> I don't know, if someone could get a docker working with httpgate already, it could be a way to get beginners to easily get started
<cobax> I'm not clever enough
<beneroth> you are
<cobax> I just am trying to code but I keep getting pulled back to these linux things...
<beneroth> make it simpler
<beneroth> haha.
<beneroth> well mac is a bad outdated unix for most parts..
<cobax> beneroth: mac is a proper unix, unlike linux, if you want to go there :)
<aw-> cobax: I created a VM which runs PicoLisp directly, if you want to try that instead
<beneroth> in legal speak, aye. in version of gnu tools rather not :=
<aw-> it boots directly into the PicoLisp REPL
<beneroth> yes, you should try out cobax linux
<cobax> is it ggiraud/docker-picolisp ?
<beneroth> eh
<Regenaxer> Oh aw-, good morning!! :)
<cobax> aw-: ^?
<beneroth> cobax, no
<aw-> made it a few days ago
<Regenaxer> aw-, right, my wrong calc
<aw-> Regenaxer: no prob ;)
<aw-> beneroth: Regenaxer hi
<Regenaxer> I should know better
<aw-> Ahahaha
<aw-> yes I think so too ;)
<cobax> aw-: the problem with yours (to me, a beginner) is that I get dropped inside pil. I need to be at a bash so that I can mess with httpGate etc
<beneroth> fair point.
<aw-> right, so just type: (call '/bin/bash)
<beneroth> haha right
<aw-> i'm joking
<beneroth> good afternoon aw-
<beneroth> you removed bash? :D
<aw-> beneroth: no of course not
<aw-> it might work
<aw-> haven't tried
<beneroth> should work
<cobax> virtualbox is needlessly emulating all kinds of hardware, docker is lean
<cobax> all we need is a dockerfile that does the httpgate stuff behind the scenes etc
<beneroth> lean is a outdated term
<aw-> cobax: it's lean until you want to do something useful
<cobax> well, emulating hardware that exists already is never useful to me
<beneroth> cobax, have you tried progit/picolisp?
<beneroth> cobax, you overthink. if it lets you learn pil, than some hardware emulation is not really a cost.
<beneroth> I agree with your notion, though
<cobax> beneroth: the problem is that then if I use vmware nothing is repeatable, none of my steps are repeatable, and I'm in a stateful world
<cobax> it's too messy
<beneroth> you have no hardware around to install a proper linux? you can always ssh to it and work on the mac.
<Regenaxer> Why does the current setup not work? httpGate is running
<beneroth> the thing I send you is about docker, not vmware
<Regenaxer> if 80 is the problem, let's start it on 2000 or whatever
<beneroth> Regenaxer, T
<beneroth> Regenaxer, 80 probably requires sudo
<Regenaxer> on the mac side?
<Regenaxer> inside docker it worked
<beneroth> ah his setup is with docker
<beneroth> hm
smkelly3 has joined #picolisp
<beneroth> cobax, can you access the website from within docker?
<beneroth> (as a proof of function)
<Regenaxer> yes, eg w3m
<cobax> yes, for instance the ERP I see the first screen... it works, but I try to login as "ben" "ben" and it goes to a funky port and crashes
<Regenaxer> w3m localhost
<cobax> beneroth: I have tried that, I am on a modified version of that
<beneroth> going to funky port is correct for picolisp form.l gui :D
<beneroth> it uses funky ports as session identifiers, not cookies.
<cobax> so that's where I am, any example I try, like mindbgui, works at first, then it cannot go to another page because it goes to a funky port
<cobax> that's too weird
<beneroth> does w3m crash or what?
smkelly3 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<beneroth> why should redirect to another port work?
<beneroth> not work
<cobax> pff, beats me
<cobax> I can't test w3m
<beneroth> what do you want to do first with picolisp, btw?
<beneroth> I found the whole form.l httpGate gui thingy pretty difficult at the beginning, I just started with other pil stuff and got later to it
<beneroth> well what browser did you use then within docker??
<cobax> beneroth: usually I get the most complex example working and then work by modifying it
<cobax> so that I can be sure all things are working
<cobax> like logging in, which doesn't work yet
<cobax> the browser is outside docker
<cobax> firefox
<cobax> the docker has -p 8080:8080 only
<beneroth> well then expect some trouble, if you start with the most complex. good learning strategy, but needs some willpower :)
<beneroth> ah
<beneroth> so you told docker to only connect 8080 to your mac, and as result other ports are obviously not available on the mac?
<cobax> it's not a learning strategy, I know other lisps, I just want to make sure I can run picolisp completely first before I dedicate much time to learning it, although I have spent a ton of time on its wonderful docs
rob_w has joined #picolisp
<cobax> beneroth: yes because I can't map tens of ports with docker
<cobax> I was not expecting it to act unusually with regards to ports
<cobax> my fault I suppose
<beneroth> well form.l gui works with ports for sessions. you could use another picolisp web framework. or get your setup up properly.
<beneroth> the fault then is not picolisp nor inside docker, its the docker<->mac network.
<cobax> beneroth: thank you. I'll find another way of running picolisp then, that my tiny brain can handle
<beneroth> picolisp form.l starts a new process per session, and this user-specific process is reachable under a new opened port.
<cobax> beneroth: that's understandable, so docker won't be the ticket for me. I'll look for something else that I am able to do reproducibly.
<beneroth> stop blaming your brain. brain size does not directly correlate with brain functionality.
<aw-> cobax: i don't use httpGate btw
<beneroth> I would guess you could configure docker correctly, but maybe its not possible. I doubt it, but... its docker.
<aw-> i use Nginx in front of picolisp
<aw-> works better for my use cases
<beneroth> aw-, for running the example apps httpGate is better
<aw-> perhaps
<aw-> when a new technology has me spinning in circles trying to figure out how to do something "simple", i toss it out the window. That's been my story with Docker so far. No worth the effort
<beneroth> I never tried docker, as I had never the need to orchestrate a bigger setup. when I need test containers, I set them up using openVZ. I have rarely the need.
<beneroth> and I believe docker will go down the "designed by committee" fault route, afaik its leadership is a political battle of multiple IT companies, something like this usually ends with a mess.
<Regenaxer> Another option would be (if not using httpGate) to allow only a small range of ports
<beneroth> but it might be very well the right tool for some use cases I don't had so far.
<Regenaxer> eg (setq *HPorts (8081 . 8089))
<beneroth> Regenaxer, the problem is cobax only allowed port 8080 on the docker-to-mac interface, so of course the session ports are not available outside of the docker vm
<Regenaxer> in app/main.l or on the command line before -go
<cobax> beneroth: my brain is big enough to understand continuations and monads but I cannot understand why I still have to manually do so many mind-spinnning linux commands instead of someone just encapsulating all that needs to be done in one script and then packaging it up in an image-based little thing I can run
<Regenaxer> beneroth, understand
<beneroth> you can do that script, cobax
<beneroth> nobody else cared enough so far to set up this scrip
<beneroth> view it as a instance of lisp course.
<beneroth> s/course/curse
<cobax> beneroth: that is what I was trying to build, but now I see it probably won't work with docker, or it would be too complex. it can be done many ways but only of interest to me is the simplest way of doing anything
<Regenaxer> So perhaps stopping httpGat and using 8080-8089 is easier
<beneroth> I find it hard to believe that it is so hard to specify docker a full range to open up
<cobax> beneroth: full range of how many ports?
<cobax> each port is expensive to open resource-wise
<cobax> I ran out when I asked for ports 8080 to 61000
<beneroth> I mean what happens if you do -p 8080:9080 and reduce the ports in the picolisp app as Regenaxer just explained?
<aw-> the problem is Docker, i've said that since the first day you suggested using that for "testing picolisp".
<cobax> ahh ok, reduce the range of ports
<Regenaxer> then uses only 8080:9084 perhaps
<cobax> I can try that next
<aw-> anyways i have to work, good luck
<Regenaxer> 8080:8084
<cobax> thanks all
<beneroth> cobax, picolisp form.l apps use all ports by default. you can specify a limited range.
<beneroth> thanks aw-
<cobax> beneroth: yep, I get it
<beneroth> aw-, I'm sure you're right :D
<Regenaxer> cu aw-
<cobax> I'll look into possibly solving it that way, thanks again
<beneroth> nice
<Regenaxer> *HPorts is for that
<beneroth> when you run into the next docker problem, get some old hardware and install a linux pls :D
<cobax> beneroth: I'd be doing this all on a linode linux if I weren't so short of money
<beneroth> Regenaxer, arguably a default range of 500 ports would make more sense, no?
<beneroth> cobax, what about an old laptop?
<Regenaxer> beneroth, perhaps a few more
<Regenaxer> I did not use *HPorts a long time
<Regenaxer> but that is what it is for
ikonia0 has joined #picolisp
<cobax> beneroth: sure I could do that. there are many solutions, some of them add barriers for me to use picolisp that are too annoying
<cobax> the whole reason I'm getting into picolisp is comfort
<Regenaxer> ... -main "-setq *HPorts (8081 . 8084)" -go
<beneroth> Regenaxer, well doesn't form.l also run into the fd 1024 limit (assuming default configs) ?
<beneroth> cobax, don't get into picolisp for comfort, haha.
<beneroth> that will not work
<cobax> Regenaxer: that's nice
<Regenaxer> But a Mac never means "comfort" for a developer! ;)
<beneroth> go into picolisp for maintainability or flexibility
<Regenaxer> Apple is too restrictive
<cobax> Regenaxer: I came from Windows so it did mean comfort for a long career :)
<beneroth> Apple is for consumers, and more and more so.
<cobax> beneroth: yes it is getting worse
<Regenaxer> T, not developers
<beneroth> just go one step further and come to linux, dude :)
<cobax> they rename their clang "gcc", how evil is that
<beneroth> there are mac GUIs :)
<cobax> beneroth: linux is too barebones for me, and it gets on my nerves
<beneroth> cobax, thats meant so all the stuff expecting gcc at a standard path still work... insofar as clang and gcc are compatible. which they are not in respect to picolisp :D
<cobax> everything you have to look up outside of where you are... too annoying
<cobax> beneroth: they are not with respect to most things one would like to compile in my humble experience compiling very run of the mill things
<beneroth> bah. excuses. get an ubuntu and good desktop manager and its all easy
<cobax> so it was an awful idea in my experience
<beneroth> futile to talk about the developer sanity of Apple in this channel, I believe :D
<beneroth> we're too grumpy lot here, even if we happen to have mac fans here for sure :)
<cobax> beneroth: yeah I think I'll just make a dev env in virtualbox with ubuntu and then develop inside of it
<cobax> beneroth: I'll outgrump you any day :P
<beneroth> yes. do that. get used to it. then full switch :P
<beneroth> ha
<cobax> beneroth: lol. I'm a looong time user of linux, I've used many distros, and all of them have sworn me as their mortal enemy
<cobax> I'm indifferent to linux but linux distros all hate me lol
orivej has joined #picolisp
<beneroth> I started with ubuntu. switched to debian when they dropped gnome desktop. switched back to ubuntu when I tried to do some ruby development (debian packages are a bit outdated...). my friend installed me i3wm tilling window manager without my say, but now I love it.
<beneroth> now I have working setup. no need to change.
<beneroth> these days I hate upgrades.
<cobax> yeah and I'm allergic to yak shaving
<cobax> how much of that do you do
<beneroth> haven't since 2014
<cobax> when I have more money I'll go back to my favorite kind of development, the one wherein I pay someone on upwork to set up my dev env for me so I don't have to learn inane useless steps
<cobax> god I miss vb6
<beneroth> visual basic?
<beneroth> I learned programming with visual c++ 6.0
<beneroth> last sane IDE from Microsoft. and it was pretty bad :D
<beneroth> you need some linux friends.
ikonia0 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<cobax> yep! good old visual basic 6 just worked in a way nothing else I've ever seen
<cobax> anything involved with c++ will be very bad
<cobax> but vb6 was a lean mean app machine
<beneroth> C++ can be nice. but then its only a subset of C++, granted.
<cobax> I *never* went to the command-line for anything
<cobax> and no two people ever agree on which subset of C++
<beneroth> the problem with C++ is: too much stuff available, too many ways to do something. and all the half-assed devs always choosing the biggest canon to shot down sparrows, blowing up everything.
<beneroth> I live now with and use command line for pretty everything. still using the mouse a lot.
<cobax> the problems with C++ ^^
<beneroth> command line is much faster than GUI. and I didn't learn a lot stuff by heart. it just came by everyday use
<beneroth> a book from Microsoft guy comparing C++/JAVA/Eiffel? WTF.
<cobax> beneroth: that depends on how good your memory is remembering which commands to type
<cobax> i never know how to type anything, and i'd rather be interactively prompted which things i can do
<beneroth> I did C/C++ for years. still do sometimes. I was a hardtime C++ fanboi before getting converted to lisp
<beneroth> my memory is pretty bad.
<cobax> sorry to hear that. I never fell for C++, even when I was a C programmer.
<beneroth> many command line tools do interactively promps. a repl is nothing else.
<beneroth> C is nicer.
<cobax> beneroth: your memory is much better than mine, I need to look up every unix command syntax every time.
<beneroth> C++ is easier to organise bigger stuff. but its even more easier to get into a ball of mud.
<cobax> why aren't those commands graphical menus so I don't have to memorize their flags, I ask myself
<beneroth> you know about tab autocomplete, yeah?
<cobax> beneroth: it's a book full of arguments against C++
<cobax> and "written by a microsoft guy" isn't an argument
<cobax> ;)
<beneroth> what obscure command do you have to memorize the flags for, beside tar?
<beneroth> it is for me :P they're not really famous for good software architecture, are they? :P
<cobax> I don't know, I can't even remember a list of commands, that's how incompatible I am with the command-line. I just don't get it.
<cobax> Ian Joyner is not defending microsoft technology in his book
<beneroth> if this is really so, and not just your presumption, how do you hope to work with REPL then?
<beneroth> same thing, no?
<cobax> he is deffending the design of Eiffel and how badly Java and C++ were designed
<beneroth> then there is again nothing to learn from me there again :D
<cobax> a repl is not the same thing as the command-line
<beneroth> btw C++ guys look heavily down on java usually.
<beneroth> cobax, how not?
<beneroth> you could just use picolisp as your command line, btw :)
<beneroth> btw this days I have the view one should always just use the best language for a task. and in that decision usually language design is a pretty small factor.
<cobax> well, a command-line is like a creepy girl I don't like who is always trying to kiss me. a repl is like talking to a girl because I choose to talk to her.
<beneroth> on the other hand.. I'm here in picolisp, so I guess language design is rather important to me :)
freemint has joined #picolisp
<beneroth> this says something about your feeling, but is not a good example for other people to understand your differentiation between repls and command line :P
freemint has quit [Client Quit]
<cobax> the reason is with the repl, I choose it. I choose which one. I can't choose a graphical command-line.
<cobax> no one will let me, it seems
<cobax> I could choose graphical repls, like Racket
<cobax> or LispWorks
<cobax> or Franz Lisp
<cobax> several graphical repls... not a single graphical command line
<beneroth> why don't you just use a repl in place of a command line? you know you can easily do that?
<cobax> with auto-complete, intellisense, helping me with the flags for different commands... there's no such thing
<cobax> what you are saying afford me no benefits, no advantages
<beneroth> tab autocomplete works well for me in bash
<cobax> the purpose of having a graphical command line would be to be able to, as I type "ls", have some auto-complete suggesting some flags, common usages, etc
<beneroth> I mean it would be better than GUI clicking through 4 menus to get to the window you want. with a repl/command line you can instantly open up this one window.
<cobax> not just me in a black void trying to remember commands because the computer is too selfish to help me
<beneroth> you are a programmer. just programm the command line you like to have.
<cobax> beneroth: the only thing I care about is not having to look up things to remember how to do it. it doesn't need to be really a graphical gui but I need help as I type commands, I need to see possible examples
<beneroth> carpenters also create their own tools
<cobax> I am very example driven, and dislike extensive explanations... I can learn just from examples
<cobax> beneroth: that's exactly why I'm leaving programming, it never gets better
<beneroth> for some weird reasons programmers don't create their own tools (or even putting in some real effort to optimize their working environment) so often
<beneroth> well it gets better for me every day :)
<cobax> I am doing something else now so I can code as a hobby, so now I'm trying to find the most comfortable way to do it
<beneroth> legitimate strategy
<cobax> and it's very hard to find even *one* comfortable way, lol. really, I miss vb6
<cobax> it was a no-bullshit way to just code
<beneroth> why don't you continue with vb6 ?
<beneroth> install reactos in a vm and off you go
<cobax> I agree 100% with your "for some weird reason" message
<cobax> that is so weird
<cobax> I've worked with npm and javascript stuff, that stuff is nasty
<cobax> and no one is trying to make it nicer
<cobax> (they think they are, in their heads)
<cobax> I can't stand windows anymore, they've gotten too crazy
<beneroth> haha, I feel you there
<cobax> vb6 wasn't magic, they just decided that everything I needed to do, I could do through their integrated environment.
<beneroth> I feel the same about windows
<cobax> programmers nowadays think it's cool to hate integrated solutions,
<beneroth> well I guess vb6 falls in the 4gl category. most languages and stacks used nowadays are 3gl.
<cobax> yes and yes!
<cobax> I love 4gl and I'm probably one of the only 5 people on Earth who can say that and mean it
<cobax> the whole industry hates 4gl or at least web programmers do
<beneroth> well talk with the computer science guys. academia (or well, the leading edge of it) is at least 50 years ahead of business practice
<beneroth> haha
<beneroth> web programmers are a joke
<cobax> academia stopped researching Operating Systems... what a shame
<beneroth> they probably hate 4gl (= full stack in their lingo?) because they are specialised to the silly end
<cobax> please, 4gl is not full stack
<cobax> the key point of 4gl is integration
<beneroth> I know
<beneroth> dude
<cobax> which is uttrly lacking in full stack
<beneroth> I worked years with 4gl ERP system navision
<cobax> I was looking into that last time you said it
<cobax> cool stuff
<beneroth> its labeled Microsoft Dynamics Nav this days
<beneroth> tough microsoft didn't do much with it.
<cobax> did they not embrace extend and extinguish it?
<beneroth> and Microsoft Dynamics is a grouping of multiple database products which are completely unrelated technically
<beneroth> no. they just bought it :D
<beneroth> originally a danish company
<cobax> here's an example of the sort of stuff I admire:
<cobax> people trying to help programmers no waste time by doing non-programming things
<cobax> not waste*
<beneroth> has pil bindings :D
<cobax> in my opinion everything hard to install should be made into a standalone webserver. life is too short
<cobax> yep I saw that
<beneroth> that is how Go packaging (the language Go) works.
<cobax> really? can you expand a bit?
<beneroth> and how new linux packages work (e.g. snap (?) from ubuntu/canonical
<beneroth> they just pack everything, including all dependencies, into a single package
<beneroth> easier to install
<cobax> like SQLite has its amalgamated file, more or less?
<cobax> I like that
<beneroth> but when you need to patch openSSL you probably end up having to patch a few hundred openSSL installation as each program comes with their own. I think that is stupid :)
<beneroth> its throwing flexibility/power over board on the way to make it easier to use
<beneroth> I'm all for easier to use.
<beneroth> but throwing flexibility away bits yourself in the long run eventually.
<beneroth> s/bits/bites
<cobax> oh boy I'll take all the exploits in the world and never upgrading for "just freaking work" anyday
<cobax> in the long run we're all dead
<beneroth> I will love forever or die tryin' !
<beneroth> :D
<beneroth> thats my current state
<beneroth> I need to program a browser so I can get away from outdated firefox
<beneroth> xD
<cobax> remember those old computers you plugged to a TV and you could start programming right away? no config just programming
<beneroth> no. I'm way too young for them. unless you count N64.
<beneroth> but I agree that the mainstream is not making any real progress in software quality and software dev way of working for like 40 years.
<cobax> so like n64 with the game shark inserted
<beneroth> yeah, though I can't recall any shark game
<cobax> GameShark
<cobax> the cartridge you used to hack games' memory
<beneroth> ah. right
<beneroth> didn't do that. did no programming/hacking prior to learning C++ with vs6. for a hacker I was a late-starter
<beneroth> so if you don't work as a programmer anymore, what field do you work in? something related, or completely unrelated?
<beneroth> my colleague and me always joked about getting a little food truck once were annoyed enough from the IT industry
<cobax> beneroth: I do something totally unrelated now, not white collar
<beneroth> interesting. I can see how that can easily be more rewarding.
<cobax> beneroth: I complete many concrete things every day. it is very rewarding.
<beneroth> yeah I know exactly what you mean.
<cobax> beneroth: in my coding career I completed fewer and fewer things as technologies became more complex and people moved from desktop to web
<beneroth> naturally, if you mainly worked in vb or related :/
<beneroth> I'm moved more into web.
<cobax> exactly.
<cobax> and you find it awful as well?
<beneroth> partly. partly not, because I'm working on my vision for an integrated web app platform based on picolisp.
<beneroth> worked mostly in web dev using C# (business apps) in parallel. good to compare the experience.
<beneroth> didn't work much in frontend design or the insanity that node.js and JS frameworks is
<cobax> oh good, you've avoided some of the sharpest pains
<beneroth> aye. and one main focus of mine happens to be databases
<beneroth> SQL is ugly and horrible, but it is still one of the languages where one spend more time thinking than writing :)
<beneroth> still way better than most stuff :)
<cobax> hahah yes I love that quote, so true
<cobax> so you are mainly focusing on integrating the database into web development?
<beneroth> that's a longterm plan. for now I'm more focused on adding some functionality to the database, my own database layer on top of the pil DB.
<beneroth> I want to ease and automate database schema changes.
<cobax> beneroth: have you heard of MUMPS? it's an old programming language (still around) used in hospitals, and it has an integrated database langugage. could give you some ideas, who knows.
<cobax> in MUMPS there is no need for schema
<cobax> *schemata
<beneroth> haven't heard of it (only the illness, haha). thanks, will look into it.
<cobax> the database only (without the programming language) is available separately at:
<beneroth> oh thx!
<cobax> beneroth: also maybe try to understand why Alan Kay wanted to get rid of data
<beneroth> yeah I like Alan Kay :)
<cobax> I don't understand it but maybe it has something to do with the fact that keeping data is so hard and inconvenient and full of impedance
<beneroth> I haven't fully grokked that saying from him, aye.
<beneroth> but well, data is code and vic versa :)
<cobax> right, and that is all I hold on to actually, lisp has given me a footing on sanity in an insane programming world
<beneroth> maybe he was just talking about Datensparsamkeit, only keep the data around you really need? that is a good thing for multiple aspects
<beneroth> I have some fun watching C# trying to get more and more lisp features in the language. result is that C# as context-dependent syntax, really horrible :D
<cobax> interesting, I hadn't heard of that term. Do you know Gemstone/S ? it seems like it achieves that
<cobax> it incentivizes you to keep only what you need by having a 1 to 1 correspondence with your objects
<cobax> beneroth: I have always found C# syntax scary especially with the angled bracket types
<beneroth> ok. sounds like an outdated attempt on what picolisp form.l gui is today.
<beneroth> cobax, well most is just copy-cat from C/C++/Java influence.
<beneroth> now they have introduced LINQ, which is kind of lambda notation, which gets compiled either to list processing in RAM or even into SQL queries. depending on that, not the same operations are valid do to in the code. very bad leaky abstraction.
<cobax> ah yes linq the monad
<beneroth> but for people who don't know lisp (or smalltalk) its heaven :D
<cobax> it's just weird how it's tacked on like that
<cobax> and all the dependency injection
<beneroth> yes. basic bloat-way of software design. take the initial design, which was suited for the initial purpose, then tack stuff on it until you can't anymore without making the whole thing explode.
<beneroth> technical debt.
<beneroth> eventually you can't manage to pay the interest anymore.
<beneroth> cu, nice talking to you, thanks for the pointers, I need to fetch the keys for my new office :)
<beneroth> you should try to get pil app working with port range
<beneroth> bbl
<cobax> beneroth: yes, very nice talking to you
<cobax> yep I will, tomorrow (later today)
mtsd has joined #picolisp
<Nistur> mornin'
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<Regenaxer> Hi Nistur
<Nistur> hulloo
ubLIX has joined #picolisp
vedu3 has joined #picolisp
vedu3 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
echarlie29 has joined #picolisp
echarlie29 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<beneroth> re
<beneroth> Hi Nistur o/
nikio_ has joined #picolisp
<Nistur> I have a minion!
nikio_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
aeSee5eiqu has joined #picolisp
aeSee5eiqu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
linear_ has joined #picolisp
<aw-> interesting discussion
linear_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
ubLIX has quit [Quit: ubLIX]
chihhsin has joined #picolisp
Zaisterri has joined #picolisp
chihhsin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
andyjpb has joined #picolisp
Zaisterri has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<aw-> cobax: thanks for the gtk-server link! It looks really awesome
eddybIM has joined #picolisp
eddybIM has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ubLIX has joined #picolisp
mtsd has quit [Quit: leaving]
GoldenBearHv has joined #picolisp
razzy has joined #picolisp
GoldenBearHv has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rob_w has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
rob_w has joined #picolisp
Guest85439 has joined #picolisp
Guest85439 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
mindcrimesTL has joined #picolisp
mindcrimesTL has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
EconOutlinesfx has joined #picolisp
rob_w has quit [Quit: Leaving]
EconOutlinesfx has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
t_ackoHX has joined #picolisp
t_ackoHX has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ubLIX has quit [Quit: ubLIX]
freemint has joined #picolisp
orivej has joined #picolisp
<beneroth> freemint, (german essay about complexity in business software dev)
<Regenaxer> Yeah, read that too this afternoon!
<freemint> beneroth, kinda sounds like an ad article
<Regenaxer> Related issue: I just tweeted "Typical for today's software bloat: Adding a single checkSelfPermission call to #PentiKeyboard needs the inclusion of a compatibility support library, which increases the APK size from 46 to 556 KiB!"
<beneroth> omg
<beneroth> epic
<beneroth> bbl
<Regenaxer> I uninstall tircd
<Regenaxer> Buggy and not maintained
<freemint> about ad article i was confused by the new heise design and "Continuous Architecture " were i suspected the author. the article is kinda short
<freemint> Regenaxer, you have a twitter?
<freemint> beneroth, thanks i did not read it
<cobax> aw-: no problem, yes it looks very fuss-free!
cobax has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<rick42> hello all
<rick42> :)
<rick42> this made me smile --> <cobax> I'm on a mac, I want comfort
<rick42> reminded me of the (probably) many definitions of "comfort" for software dev use cases :)
<Regenaxer> Hi rick42!
<rick42> hi Regenaxer!
<Regenaxer> :)
<freemint> your twitter?
<rick42> Regenaxer: i remember that, at FOSCON (?) a few years ago (talk is on yt), you said "I know every byte of this application" (or something like that).
<rick42> that's one way to be "comfortable" with your product
<rick42> i good way
<rick42> a
<rick42> a way i like :)
<rick42> The "magic black box" type of "comfort", no. Not for me.
<Regenaxer> indeed
<rick42> then something breaks, and I am responsible for a solution
<rick42> freemint: i had no particular idea in mind. just trying to say that in some cases (when you requirements are covered by mini), why not go with it? sorry for any confusion caused by me
<freemint> no i am looking in to usecases for mini as well.
<freemint> i was curious what you had in mind
<rick42> i had only one in particular (when I asked about it in the first place): an app to display an "include" tree. reads a root file and follows all the include statements and displays a tree (really, every level of `include`, the file is just displayed indented further than the last level).
<rick42> i already wrote the utility -- i just need to upgrade to emu (from mini) ... for now
<Regenaxer> hmm, but for Windows?
<Regenaxer> Emu needs POSIX too
<rick42> yes for Windoze
<rick42> ah
<Regenaxer> it is C, but still POSIX
<rick42> this is the fault for my customer ... using Windoze, that is lol
<rick42> i'm on openbsd (as you know)
<rick42> maybe somthing like midipix can progess. i wondr if they have a patreon. i would donate np. attn: joebo1 :)
<rick42> Microsoft didn't see a standard they didn't like ... as long as it was developed by them lol
<freemint> and there is no posix compatibility layer in windows? they even run linux inside windows nowaday
<rick42> my customers are on win 7. we could wait til they go win 10. i think that my happen before the end of calendar year
<rick42> freemint: i just tried (pack "" Nick). took me right to Regenaxer's feed :)
meenaqV has joined #picolisp
meenaqV has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pepijndevos has joined #picolisp
pepijndevos has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ubLIX has joined #picolisp
<Regenaxer> Oh, freemint is in #penti :)
f8l has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
f8l has joined #picolisp
orivej has joined #picolisp
lukexjTU has joined #picolisp
lukexjTU has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
RealmyWO has joined #picolisp
RealmyWO has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pierpal has joined #picolisp
NickeehzG has joined #picolisp
NickeehzG has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
donut_Tc has joined #picolisp
donut_Tc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
razzy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
razzy has joined #picolisp
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
alexshendi has joined #picolisp
DirkSPQ has joined #picolisp
DirkSPQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
freemint has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
mpetchKH has joined #picolisp
mpetchKH has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
andyjpb has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]