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<beneroth> Good morning all
<beneroth> yunfan, aw- nice talk. I enjoyed reading it, very exciting. I also think you have great plans, yunfan.
<beneroth> I love the variety of people and backgrounds we have here. I hope to meet you all one day irl :)
<beneroth> this community is so astonishing and fascinating.
<Regenaxer> Hi beneroth!
<beneroth> Hi Regenaxer ! :)
<Regenaxer> yes, indeed fascinating
<beneroth> your picolisp as some very weird self-selecting drive :P
<beneroth> on people, I mean
<Regenaxer> self-selecting?
<Regenaxer> selecting only the interesting ones?
<beneroth> partly. the people selected themselves to come here. but some mechanisms result in mostly only very interesting people from various completely different backgrounds to come here
<beneroth> while I still feel we all share some.. attitudes and basic understandings. not just that PHP is bad, but... a friendly, curious, pragmatic-practically mind.
<beneroth> *practically-oriented
<Regenaxer> T
<beneroth> hard to point the finger on it.
<Regenaxer> Non-mainstream
<beneroth> T, though there are many non-mainstream ways, its more than that.
<beneroth> well ok, its programming language, so the filter into nerd/hacker/scientist sub-population is already pretty strong. but still...
<Regenaxer> right
<beneroth> now you Regenaxer say you planned it this way, you made a programming languages just with the right properties to attract some type of people, and this is all according to your plan. then you become psychological sage status next to the programming sage status you already earned :P
<Regenaxer> haha :)
<beneroth> Hari Seldon
<beneroth> :)
<beneroth> (though Hari was probably manipulated by a telepathic robot)
<Regenaxer> oh, didn't know Hari Seldon
<beneroth> its a fictional character
<Regenaxer> I see
<Regenaxer> yes
<beneroth> you should read The Foundation Series
<Regenaxer> yeah, Asimov
<beneroth> though I guess you would probably like the robot series better
<beneroth> aye
<Regenaxer> I'll get them
<Regenaxer> noted
<Regenaxer> buch7 is my favourite book store
<beneroth> I just recently read the robot series, its very good "who-did-it" detective stories, and beside that the most insightful and complete study of what would a fully robotised society look like, what would a over-populated climate-destroyed earth society look like, how would they get along, and what rules could be implemented into AI to make it safe and secure and how this rules don't work out...
<beneroth> much ahead of the current AI/ML ethics blabla I saw so far
<beneroth> Cave of Steel
<Regenaxer> I read a lot from Asimov as a teen, but forgot most meanwhile
<beneroth> hehehe, that probably helped you to develop good tastes and instincts :)
<Regenaxer> Sure ;)
<beneroth> you read Knuth cover to cover? or you used it only for reference/looking up ?
<Regenaxer> Even more Stanislav Lem
<Regenaxer> Knuth I read the first one fully
<beneroth> yeah, I know about Stanislav Lem, still need to read his stuff
<beneroth> I started, but I wanted to do the math exercises at least a bit and didn't work on it...
<Regenaxer> they are tough
<Regenaxer> digging through all proves is too much for me
<Regenaxer> proofs
<beneroth> well you came further than Bill Gates. On my edition of the first book is a short review /quote from him about everyone able to read this thing will have his honest respect and should please send him a summary, he couldn't do it
<Regenaxer> He is very right
<beneroth> the content is fundamental truths about computing, will be valid forever.
<Regenaxer> T
<beneroth> but one can see that its written by a math prodigy child :)
<Regenaxer> yeah
<beneroth> I'm just reading Hawking, the famous short history of time. I can see now how he got popular, really pretty good writing style.
<beneroth> and fascinating to find mistakes, we already came much further in our understanding of the universe in the last 10-20 years.
<Regenaxer> Not really mistakes I think
<Regenaxer> unknowns
<beneroth> and exciting to see that all those universe physics stuff was mostly completely calculated in math first, so astronomy/astro-physics is more about finding out which math model was right and debug it then trying to find a fitting model after the empiric findings. I was not aware of that.
<beneroth> yes
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> not mistakes, he couldn't have know better and was honestly sure of it
<beneroth> I didn't know that the big-bang models, or at least the conclusion that the universe is not static (was there forever and will forever be) is a direct mathematical consequence of Einsteins general relativity. Apparently a consequence Einstein really didn't like and try to find another explanation (without success).
<Regenaxer> Einsteid did not accept quantum physics too
<beneroth> yeah. he apparently didn't like to have any random generators in the running of the universe.
<beneroth> I find the views of Joscha Bach interesting. he proposes that quantum computers might not be possible because the "virtual variables" (the one which gets decided when you evaluate another one) don't really exist but are indeed just possible results of the universal computing function which then are not computed
<beneroth> He suspects reality to be some sort of computation, like having some kind of algorithm translating from one state of the universe into the next.
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<beneroth> bbl. Have a nice day folks
<yunfan> beneroth: thanks, but to be honest i had that plans only because i have no other choice. and also i am an anxious person
<Regenaxer> You too beneroth!
<beneroth> Thanks
<beneroth> yunfan, not only. many people don't get into plans especially when they're anxious. good skill. not letting the anxiety overpower you.
<yunfan> beneroth: no, i mean really, if i study hard on english at the college, i might have the chance to australia, and then got my own farmland and live happier, not like now , worried about the collapse of econemy
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<beneroth> yeah that's the attitude. you do something about it. trying to improve is always better then doing nothing. but it requires initiative and energy. being sad and doing nothing about it is way easier.
<beneroth> I worry about the things which might come.
<beneroth> btw completely unrelated, Boston Dynamics shows off once more:
<beneroth> I really need to go now ^^'
<beneroth> have a good day yunfan !
<beneroth> bbl
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<yunfan> beneroth: yes, i had watched that video too, its amazing that the robot its only 75kg, lighter than my thought
<Nistur> mornin'
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<razzy> bostondynamics should sharply reconsider where they stand :]
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<freemint> Regenaxer, i found a "bug":
<Regenaxer> oh
<freemint> (for X (range 1 26) (prin X " : ") (bench (length (need (** 2 X) 0)))) print X: before the bench
<Regenaxer> This is not a bug. 'bench' prints to stderr
<freemint> but (for X (range 1 20) (prin X " : ") (bench (length (do 100 (need (** 2 X) 0))))) writes the bench befire the X:
<Regenaxer> This is a Unix feature
<freemint> bench'es documentation does not specify that it flushes
<freemint> oh ok
<Regenaxer> it is stderr
<freemint> work around is flush
<Regenaxer> Anyway, thanks
<Regenaxer> yes
<freemint> thats why i di d put "bug" in " "
<Regenaxer> good :)
<freemint> Oh and did have programming language lecture
<freemint> to summarize: Java is the first hardware independent programming language
<freemint> newer language like java are more abstract than 1960s LISP
<freemint> always pick binary searchable structures over linear structures
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<Regenaxer> Java is by far not the first hardware independent language
<Regenaxer> All high-level langs are more or less independent. They mean the executable format, but even that was in Pascal decades before Java
<Regenaxer> And "always pick binary searchable structures" is complete nonsense. It depends on the purpose
<freemint> I know
<Regenaxer> That's how univerities teach these days ;)
<freemint> I am having problems with 1.0 and edit
<Regenaxer> Read macros in general
<freemint> yeah ... is there a way around this?
<Regenaxer> Around how?
<Regenaxer> Same with comments
<freemint> ... so there is not ... great excuse to implement my own "macro" system
<Regenaxer> 'edit' operates on the internal structures
<Regenaxer> So what is not there cannot be edited
<freemint> edit is pp | vim | de ?
<Regenaxer> It is always better to edit the real source files
<Regenaxer> yes, 'pretty' + some editor
<Regenaxer> no 'de'
<Regenaxer> it edits the value and properties of the given symbol args
<Regenaxer> It is not meant to write a program in
<Regenaxer> I use it mostly to navigate DB objects
<Regenaxer> or set a temporary debug break '!'
<freemint> Regenaxer, unrelated note, it would be really interesting to see your workflow ...
<freemint> I am sure there are some hidden gems for productivity the community is not aware yet-
<Regenaxer> Nothing special, usually 2 terminals plus browser if needed
<Regenaxer> So one term editor, one repl
<freemint> Many things which are "nothing speacial" to you are special to other people.
<Regenaxer> Yes, everyone develops his working style over the years
<freemint> Would you be willing to make a "screen cap" of you working on a project which is not sensitive?
<Regenaxer> I did that in the wiki article
<freemint> a "the wiki article"
<Regenaxer> IIRC it even goes till browser is used
<Regenaxer> Not sure now, perhaps no browser
<Regenaxer> You can split the screen on Android, and sometimes I put the browser into the lower part
<Regenaxer> But more often I just toggle
<Regenaxer> Ah, browser GUI is also in the article
<Regenaxer> "Application Server"
<Regenaxer> The simple demo "app"
<freemint> Ok another question how do i send udp packets with PicoLisp?
<Regenaxer> UDP support is very limited. Only PLIO
<Regenaxer> send + recieve
<freemint> to bad ... i have a project idea i would need that for.
<freemint> also i need real udp not pilio over udp
<Regenaxer> It makes no sense in Pil to handle "packets"
<Regenaxer> Better write a native handler
<freemint> mhh
<Regenaxer> What do you need UDP for?
<Regenaxer> They make sense only for very low-level stuff
<Regenaxer> which cannot be handled well in Lisp anyway
<Regenaxer> And performance is not worth the effort in many cases
<Regenaxer> Are you really sure you need UDP?
<Regenaxer> or is it just like "I need arrays"?
<freemint> mhh good question
<Regenaxer> or "I need a compiler" ;)
<freemint> I want to implement a topology crawler for network switches
<Regenaxer> Best is to make one or two low-level functions for that perhaps
<Regenaxer> a small C lib
<Regenaxer> or an asm lib, using doUdp as a model
<freemint> This work over UDP. Furthermore i want to be able to "simulate" a topology of a network so it could send around virtual packages so a udp represenation in lisp form would be good
<Regenaxer> ok
<freemint> afk
<Regenaxer> Perhaps you can even write it in Lisp + native calls
<Regenaxer> ok
<Regenaxer> sendto()
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