08:03 <Nistur> mornin'

08:22 <beneroth> Mornin'

08:36 <beneroth> [OT] the new trend of packing all dependencies into the distribution package has the obvious risk that security fixes take much longer to deploy (shared libs can be updated once centrally, but with such all-in-one-packages every of this packages need to be fixed independently). With flatpack this already became a problem: http://flatkill.org

09:19 <aw-> hey beneroth

09:20 <aw-> same issue with Go binaries, Electron apps..

09:20 <beneroth> aye

09:21 <beneroth> well I think electron is a lost thing, too many turtles.

09:22 <beneroth> but what I just was told from a friend: Debian does neglect some stuff. https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#limited-security-support

09:22 <beneroth> I believe them that node.js is pretty horrible security-wise (if node.js-community would care about security, they would have ditched NPM long ago)

09:22 <aw-> yes

09:23 <aw-> the only solution is to disconnect your ethernet cable

09:24 <beneroth> but Debian does also not package available security fixes for browsers (beside firefox and chrom/chromium), e.g. QtWebEngine. this sounds stupid to me, they should then just kick those packages out of Debian package lists instead of making the illusion to maintain it but actually just keeping it on an old version without doing their security-packporting thing

13:14 <rick42> good morning/afternoon/evening (I think I covered aw- with the last one :)

13:15 <rick42> ha! | <aw-> the only solution is to disconnect your ethernet cable

13:15 <rick42> aren't macos apps bundles too?

13:21 <rick42> where is Regenaxer?

13:21 <rick42> (I have him being (quit) out of the channel for 6+ hours. unusual.)

13:22 <beneroth> * Regenaxer hat die Verbindung getrennt (Ping timeout: 252 second

13:22 <beneroth> T

13:22 <beneroth> mabye a technical issue or he is traveling

13:22 <beneroth> no idea

13:24 <beneroth> I don't know about the mac os apps, maybe its mixed, sometimes using OS libraries sometimes bringing their own? dunno

13:24 <beneroth> but Apples security track was very bad in recent years, especially on MacOS.

13:26 <beneroth> e.g. login as admin possible without knowing the password - even remotely per network, displaying the password instead of the password hint in the disk encryption dialog, exploits in iTunes they only fixed after some security/spy-companies started to use it in their marketing videos, and quite some more similar cases

13:27 <rick42> beneroth: o/

13:27 <beneroth> \o

13:28 <rick42> I wanted to tell Reg that I liked his foldr function (on the ML)

13:28 <beneroth> :)

13:28 <rick42> I renamed it to `reduce` and I'm keeping it on my libs

13:28 <beneroth> haha

13:28 <rick42> *in

13:29 <rick42> I like that the "accumulator" is in the first argument (as opposed to the racket standard: in the last)

13:30 <rick42> Reg's:

13:30 <rick42> accumulates in the first (left) arg

13:30 <rick42> -> (op (op (op 0 1) 2) 3)

13:30 <rick42> : (foldr op 0 (1 2 3))

13:31 <beneroth> comes from the freedom in picolisp to add/omit as many arguments as you like at the end of the parameter list. therefore always-required arguments, or shorter arguments (a var vs. an anonymous function) tend to be placed at the beginning of the parameter list

13:31 <rick42> it is visually parallel with the last two args to foldr: (... 0 (1 2 3)) in this case 0 is the initial value of the accumulator. nice

13:31 <rick42> beneroth: T

13:33 <rick42> i enjoy the beauty/aesthetics :)

13:34 <rick42> bbl

13:47 <aw-> hey rick42

13:51 <aw-> oh we keep missing each other ;)

14:27 <rick42> aw-: hi! always good to read your stuff anyway (in lieu of conversing)

14:27 <rick42> how is your work going? well, i hope

14:30 <rick42> aw-: you mentioned your wiki. if you published your code, will you share? even if it doesn't do much, i would enjoy reading your code. i like your coding style. and i would learn something. pil hasn't stuck so well with me b/c i'm so "on and off" with it

14:31 <rick42> more off than on :(

14:35 <beneroth> so with which language/stack do you work mainly nowadays, rick42 ?

14:39 <rick42> beneroth: no stack -- just adhoc computing -- whatever gets a quick job done. there's no big system or framework to be in all the time

14:39 <rick42> model data is "pushed" around in awk scripting then flows into Excel / other data tools

14:40 <rick42> it's very boring from a s/w dev pov

14:40 <beneroth> I would consider awk + excel to be a stack ^^

14:40 <rick42> haha ok :)

14:40 <rick42> excel is not my choice but what the customer wants

14:41 <rick42> they also run on windoze yuk

14:41 <beneroth> excel is a powerful programming tool for non-programmers

14:41 <rick42> T

14:41 <rick42> and declarative programming

14:42 <beneroth> one-day they will reach its limits, want to have a more structured database, and/or the excel guru is long gone. then happy migration :)

14:42 <rick42> yes, that's happened in some circles alreedy

14:42 <beneroth> that's one of the things I do as freelancer/consultant

14:42 <rick42> ah!

14:43 <beneroth> programming new app / database, migrating old stuff

14:43 <rick42> a happy concequence of that type of outgrowth in one instance was when we ported a model off of excel (yeah, it was mostly vba) to clojure

14:44 <rick42> that was the best "stack" i worked with there

14:44 <beneroth> how did they end up using clojure? :)

14:44 <rick42> by our sneaky means :)

14:44 <beneroth> why not .NET web app + MSSQL, that would be more expected from such shops

14:44 <beneroth> nice

14:45 <beneroth> ;)

14:45 <rick42> "we got this port running in java, you interested?"

14:45 <rick42> hehehe

14:45 <beneroth> you should attempt pil-app on next opportunity :P

14:45 <rick42> all they knew for a while was that it was "jave"

14:45 <rick42> i'm trying!

14:45 <beneroth> did you view mtsds presentation?

14:45 <beneroth> haha

14:46 <rick42> that's what I was hoping joebo1 would help with -- b/c i suck :)

14:46 <rick42> yes i saw that slidedeck nice!

14:46 <beneroth> ah, still bound to running on windows, I see

14:46 <rick42> yes :(

14:46 <beneroth> dunno if ersatz would be an option. I don't know if it actually offers pilDB :/

14:47 <rick42> ah

14:47 <rick42> idk either

14:47 <beneroth> might be a way.

14:47 <beneroth> prolly slow

14:47 <beneroth> hm

14:47 <beneroth> now I wonder why ersatz was not considered with the macos discussions we had recently

14:48 <rick42> otoh, speed is usually not a big issue for what we need

14:48 <beneroth> T

14:48 <beneroth> so you got somewhat proficient in clojure?

14:49 <rick42> yes. i like it. i started in 2009

14:49 <beneroth> ah, ok so I could annoy you with clojure questions. good to know!

14:49 <rick42> hickey came to my town in fall 2009 and i attended a wek long course that he taught

14:50 <rick42> he is very wise like abu

14:51 <beneroth> :)

14:51 <rick42> also should have said "... and knowledgable ..."

14:56 <beneroth> while many are knowledgeable without being wise, I think knowledge (experience) is somewhat a prerequisite for wisdom.

19:08 <razzy> beneroth: i missed your wise talk