ChanServ changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | Channel Log: | Check also for more information
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<yunfan> beneroth: always remember they were enterprise
<yunfan> if you are seeking for organization with faith, its better to look at those foundation or something similar
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<beneroth> yunfan, T
<beneroth> though the legal form of a group of people does not necessarily say something about their intentions.
<yunfan> beneroth: you could setup a foundation for that :D
<beneroth> about the fact that the US health system costs more (taxpayer money) than most European systems, but only benefits much fewer people.
<yunfan> beneroth: well i agree with that us health care system has problem
<beneroth> well, if it doesn't endanger you to look this stuff up. take care.
<yunfan> beneroth: and its really big and big problem
<beneroth> yeah
<beneroth> so many problems everywhere.
<yunfan> but i dont have the conclution that i should support high welfare system in europe
<beneroth> we must program better models and data processing so maybe we can help a bit to get it better :)
<yunfan> maybe. but i guess scientise researching should be much more open than today
<beneroth> T
<yunfan> many of the problem's solve relys on new scientce found, or practise :D
<beneroth> agreed. though many problems are social in nature, especially things like health care (which is basically a social contract within a society).
<yunfan> i am thankful for those scientists. but from a software developer's view, i think there were much improvement space for them
<yunfan> but some might be political problem which they couldnt solve that
<beneroth> technology cannot really solve social issues. maybe they can support finding it, but often the solution can only be a social/political solution, throwing technology at it will not help.
<yunfan> beneroth: of course tech cant solve all the issues, but for some issues, it will be easier, like food problem
<beneroth> but politicians (and people in general) got more comfortable and lazier these days so they try to delegate everything to technology.
<beneroth> which food problem?
<yunfan> as you said before, food problem in africa is not the production issues
<beneroth> the logistics problem? since the 90s we produce more than enough food.
<beneroth> aye
<beneroth> this is something good to say about China, currently their development help to poor nation is way better then the "lets get you into debt so we can command you around, ah yes and pay us interest"-strategy of 'the west'
<yunfan> yes, but we still not produce more, if we could get the food price as 10 times low as today, it only need us 1/10 effort to suply the current consumer in africa
<yunfan> so that people like you could get much more power than before
<yunfan> beneroth: but isnt that china now caused some of the coutries into these mode?
<beneroth> I don't have much power here. I could take my money to other parts of the world and would have some power for a pretty limited time.
<yunfan> like siri lanka?
<beneroth> I don't know about sri lanka (well the west didn't do much about them killing tamils, eh...)
<yunfan> beneroth: its a simple math question, if you willing to donate 100 dollars a year, with the lower food price, your donation could save much more people
<yunfan> beneroth: of course its better to help them in education and other ways , but i just saying technology could helps anyway
<beneroth> thats no solution. thats subsidisation.
<beneroth> aye
<yunfan> and as you know, if the solar panel could be much more efficiency and cheap, it could help africa from electricity lacking
<yunfan> also i am very interesting of google's Project Loon, which could provide a wide range network accessing using cheap Loon
<yunfan> as i know, it only costs millions of dollars, even for those poor coutries, its still affordale
<yunfan> well, facebook has a simillar project except they use solar driven flight
<beneroth> hopefully real internet access, not like what facebook attempted in India (internet reduced to wikipedia, facebook, and like 3 other websites. which is neither internet nor www. but people getting their first impression of the internet this way will likely believe it. walled gardens ftw.)
<yunfan> if materials is cheap, i am no doubt that many of the young africans could help themseves based on this just like us chinese does today
<yunfan> beneroth: its better than nothing, right? and you still could using the law to force them back one steps a year :D
<yunfan> beneroth: for eg, lets suppose you were live in africa and were limited to access facebook's service only using that solar flight.
<beneroth> no, its not better than nothing really, not really. it establishes habits and culture which will be devastating in the long run: train the people to be dependent on a few big companies. Shadow Run SciFi style.
<yunfan> beneroth: people outside still could setup service like wikipedia or other helpful site based on facebook's service.
<yunfan> like build a growing group based on facebooks' group
<beneroth> no, exactly not. thats up to facebook to forbid then.
<beneroth> yeah ok.
<beneroth> on facebook. reduce the whole internet to facebook, and hand them the full control.
<yunfan> or help you via facebook messenger , or even make a chat bot to help you search something on google :LD
<beneroth> then China needs not to keep working on their big firewall, they just talk to facebook and can get all surveillance info they want, and can block access for all people (or modify what information they get) extremely easily
<beneroth> that is too much power in too few hands.
<yunfan> beneroth: i hope the chinese goverment could accept your point :D
<yunfan> beneroth: of course privacy is much important to us. but for those who need help on food issues, i dont think its big
<yunfan> beneroth: i could give you a example at once
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> but
<yunfan> beneroth: thought even us chinese hate the firewall, but for vietnam people, they dont care, they just want to come to china for earning much more money
<yunfan> as you knew, vietnam dont has the firewall than us china, but money is more important for those ones
<beneroth> I think we can aim for better solutions. doesn't mean to do nothing, just better solutions. in these cases it would not be so hard to find better solutions without training people into slaver in the long run, no?
<yunfan> really? i am worried about human nature
<beneroth> me too. maybe from another perspective then you :)
<yunfan> if you havnt surfered reall evil, you might not be thankful to the good
<beneroth> but yes, basically human nature is an issue. we are evolved and adapted to a much different life than what we live now.
<yunfan> for eg, i as born in 1980s, has no hateful to chinese goverment except the firewall, but for people who was born in 1950s, the CCCP is really a demon
<beneroth> yes
<beneroth> which also has the consequence that the younger ones are less afraid to speak up.
<beneroth> they don't know what could happen to them.
<yunfan> right, they think the enviroment is nature borned
<beneroth> there are now even young communist/maoist protest groups xD
<beneroth> ironic. but not funny really.
<yunfan> these young maoists, i am afraid of their future
<beneroth> well what about the democrats in HongKong or Taiwan?
<yunfan> well, you must say, even for me, communist thoery has some attractive
<yunfan> we just deniel it could happen in this centuries
<beneroth> what about the Uigurs, which are already heavy under oppression from Chinese gov?
<beneroth> T
<yunfan> but since i am a developer, i might think that scene might happen one day, but not based on marx's theory
<beneroth> US splits into a well-of-part and poor-and-often-stupid part
<yunfan> beneroth: i think what you heard about uigurs is true
<beneroth> Europe gets more hypocrite
<beneroth> yes
<yunfan> but as you know, its really a common pattern for the chinese goverment , they were not racists, they use such method to all of their enymies :[
<beneroth> Varoufakis (the greek finance minister who happens also to be an economist who fought back EU troika) said something interesting about that
<yunfan> but for others, they might think it as a intentional racists events
<yunfan> aha, greeks
<beneroth> "question is if the world will turn into Star Trek Utopia (most needs are taken care of, people work in whatever field they're interested, we mostly don't work to survive but to explore), or if it turns into Matrix (enslavement by computers/few wealthy puppet masters)
<beneroth> "
<yunfan> what do you think about catalonia's issue?
<beneroth> I guess Spain should probably be more federalist (= more power/control to local government vs. the centralised nation state), then there would be less conflict with regions wanting to separate.
<beneroth> I don't know much about catalonia beside its a very complicated issues. partly central government denying the catalonia region money and some other stuff for years which they should be allowed to have. on the other side a lot of tax cheaters apparently found a save haven there. there is a long conflict going on there in the background about something like this.
<beneroth> so
<beneroth> enough off topic :) I need to work a bit :)
<beneroth> thanks for the talking yunfan :)
<yunfan> beneroth: ok , see you tomorrow
<beneroth> (I will be around)
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<Nistur> mornin'
<Regenaxer> Hi Nistur
<beneroth> Good morning Nistur :)
<beneroth> Guten Morgen Regenaxer
<Regenaxer> Hi beneroth :)
<beneroth> :)
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<Nistur> o/
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<beneroth> lol, I just stumpled on a old article explaining the Google vs. Oracle fight about java and the Sun patents used for it.
<beneroth> its completely ridiculous. The patents are about very obvious and simple stuff.
<beneroth> the more advanced stuff is something like: "This patent, invented by James Gosling himself, basically describes a mechanism by which symbolic data references in code (e.g. Java field references) can be resolved dynamically at runtime into actual direct memory accesses, eliminating the symbolic lookup overhead."
<beneroth> this is basically what the picolisp parser does xD
<beneroth> so either picolisp violates that patent too, or (more accurately) picolisp makes this patent invalid as this mechanism in picolisp is probably older than the whole java story :)
<beneroth> "The novelty of this patent may be in doing that translation on the fly...not even at a decidedly coarse-grained per-method level, but by rewriting code while the method is actually executing."
<beneroth> bwahaha
<beneroth> I'm pretty sure the design of the picolisp parser is older than 1999, right Regenaxer ?
<beneroth> it's still fascinating to see how much on-par or even ahead Regenaxer as lone-wolf was/is compared to the forefront of commercial computer science
<Regenaxer> All not my ideas. But software patents are indeed ridculous
<beneroth> I think these ideas are pretty obvious if you approach the task from a kiss angle.
<beneroth> and ASM or C programming knowledge.
<beneroth> Regenaxer, I guess the basic design of pure picolisp (repl) is mostly from the early nineties or even late 80ties ?
<beneroth> though I don't know if something counts as "prior art" in common patent law when it is not publicly published
<beneroth> I just learned that Java was originally intended for embedded programming. who would have thought.
<beneroth> Regenaxer, with my previous question i mean "mostly unchanged implemented in picolisp". obviously the ideas are mostly older.
<beneroth> (yes, prior art needs public availability of some sort)
<Regenaxer> You mean the repl in the late 80s PicoLisp was te same - indeed yes
<beneroth> T
<rick42> tankf33der: nice job on the foldl
<beneroth> T
<rick42> hi everyone
<Regenaxer> Hi rick42!
<beneroth> I followed the discussion and liked the code examples much :)
<rick42> Regenaxer: hi!
<rick42> hey beneroth!
<beneroth> olla rick42 :)
<rick42> :)
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<beneroth> haha, nice email rick42 xD
<beneroth> btw you are not stealing as tankf33der publishes his stuff under a copyright waiver.
<beneroth> good you put a licensee in there, tankf33der !
<beneroth> hopefully one day humanity will outgrow this nonsense.
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<rick42> :)
<rick42> the last code that I stole from mike I gave him attribution - that seems fair
<beneroth> agreed
<beneroth> "Yes, you couldn't reuse the same initial value for a data structure like
<beneroth> you would in scheme"
<beneroth> I don't understand the sentence. as far as I understand it, the destructive use of the I variable is exactly what the sentence says isn't possible.
<beneroth> do I understand it right?
<rick42> it hard to tell what he meant
<rick42> so i took it to mean "you can't call foldl with the same initial value (referenced from a variable) ..."
<rick42> clearly then foldl doesn't affect the outside world
<rick42> but it was just a guess as to what he meant
<rick42> he wasn't clear
<beneroth> ok
<rick42> that's why Regenaxer said "How do you mean that?"
<beneroth> natural languages are so confusing.
<beneroth> aye
<rick42> T
<beneroth> good Regenaxer asked here :)
<beneroth> I like your visual language, rick42 :)
<beneroth> hulk smashing!
<rick42> ah :)
<beneroth> but yeah, cultural knowhow is required to parse it :)
<rick42> oops. that's a drawback. youre right
<beneroth> that is the problem with natural language, and I think a strong reason why current approaches to natural languages don't work out well all in all: the frame of reference, the context and meanings of the language symbolics is constantly changing, and there is no fixed frame of reference, in the end every person walks around with their own definitions and in most cases they just overlap enough that communication is possible :)
<beneroth> just think about the area of in-jokes in a smaller circle of friends, or even here (our use of T being an example).
<rick42> T you've touched on a HUGH problem with language
<rick42> or when I mistakenly used "donks" here :)
<rick42> with the guy I say "donks" with, we also say "hulk smash" (for coding) :)
<rick42> we have rules for hulk-smashing: if you own it you can hulk-smash [on] it. :) If you don't, don't do it!
<beneroth> I also often observe that many social/political debates are largely founded on a different meaning/implications to the used words. so multiple parties use the same word in a talk between them, but both talk about different stuff then the other side understands, and often they probably would agree in a lot of points if they just could grok the others frames of references (and be civil enough to grant the other party a legitimate view etc)
<rick42> YES!
<beneroth> rick42, yeah, like pointer-ownage in C/C++.
<beneroth> who is responsible for freeing it.
<rick42> rust makes it explicit. that seems cool
<rick42> yeah
<beneroth> I'm still unsure about rust.
<beneroth> I tend to agree with some people who say: this all would be possible with C++.
<beneroth> I agree with the people who point out: well, but the C++ guys didn't do it!
<beneroth> (I don't know why. I guess laziness, too much will to grant compiler/implementations too much freedoms in the standard committee, and some variant of lisp curse)
<beneroth> C++ allows so elegant beautiful and still fully optimized constructs, but it is also so broad that it just allows too much ugly stuff. maybe too much programmer control, in a way.
<rick42> don't get me wrong - ive never programmed in rust. that's why i said "seems" :) yeah, jury's still out (for me)
<beneroth> hm, you are home at R, no?
<rick42> R? do you mean the language?
<beneroth> aye
<rick42> its ok. i have limited experience with R
<rick42> at least it's better than matlab as a language (i know that's not saying much lol)
<rick42> sorry to cut short. gotta leave
<rick42> choir rehearsal
<rick42> ha!
<beneroth> good bye!
<rick42> ok cu! i had fun talking!
<beneroth> [OT] bloomberg initiates round 2 of the weird china-us-spy-whateverthatis:
<beneroth> rick42, same, as always :)
<Regenaxer> cu rick42!
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<beneroth> Regenaxer, I award you the quote of the week: "Often it is contra-productive to over-abstract things."
<beneroth> I try to remember this sentence, its better understandable than throwing "mental masturbation" at people :)
<Regenaxer> haha, thanks!
<Regenaxer> Not sure if contra-productive is even used in English
<Regenaxer> Perhaps counter-productive?
<beneroth> contra-productive seems indeed not to be used in english, besides badly translated german sources:
<Regenaxer> ok, good to know
<beneroth> counter-intuitive is probably more common word-construct :)
<Regenaxer> And counter-intelligence ;)
<beneroth> ah yes, haha
<beneroth> so picolisp is a counter-compilation language? I just wonder if one just can use "counter-" for "anti-" too :D
<beneroth> counter-complicated
<Regenaxer> Sounds strange
<beneroth> aye
<Regenaxer> But perhaps cool to coin such words
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<beneroth> yes. but its likely counter-productive mental masturbation :P
<Regenaxer> haha :)
<Regenaxer> Sleepy. Must listen on my pillow now ;)
<beneroth> Gute Nacht :)
<Regenaxer> Gute Nacht! :)
<beneroth> don't believe everything the pillow whipsers in your ear.
<beneroth> ;-)
<Regenaxer> ok, I'll try :)
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