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<Nistur>
mornin'
<Regenaxer>
Hi Nistur
<Nistur>
hulloo :)
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<beneroth>
Heyooo
<beneroth>
:-)
<Regenaxer>
Hi beneroth
<beneroth>
oh I still have to save our conversation from yesterday
<beneroth>
create_notes.txt :-)
<beneroth>
thanks again, Regenaxer :)
<Regenaxer>
Welcome :)
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<Regenaxer>
Now debugging pil21 bignums
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<olaf_h>
hi all
<olaf_h>
(ah, nun geht's)
<Regenaxer>
Hi olaf_h
<Regenaxer>
ja :)
<olaf_h>
Ein gutes haben die guido Beiträge ja: ich bin mal wieder im irc und musste mich mit dem register etc hier auseinandersetzen
<Regenaxer>
Nickname registration?
<olaf_h>
Aber generell ist es besser, auf den guido in der mailing liste nicht zu antworten, oder? Ich war jetzt echt kurz davor, ihn nach *seiner* mailing liste zu fragen, damit er nicht im pil forum posten muss. Aber ich fürchte, das würde den spam nicht verringern
<olaf_h>
ja, nickname registration bzw. registriert war ich wohl schon länger, aber herausfinden, wie ich mit meinem pw hier reinkomme
<Regenaxer>
Ja, das ist meist Mist was der verzapft
<Regenaxer>
ah, better English here ;)
<olaf_h>
Ein hoch auf irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp - wer auch immer das betreibt - da hab ich öfter mal reingelesen
<Regenaxer>
yep
<olaf_h>
oh sorry, yes of course, I try: a hip hip hurray to that or those guys (or girls) who are maintaining the picolisp irclog - was fun to read there while having probs with nick registration :-)
<Regenaxer>
:)
<olaf_h>
I like some of guidos notes, but I do not like the spamming again and again of same or similar words.
<Regenaxer>
yeah, and he never really reacts to questions
<Regenaxer>
just wants to pour his stuff on us
<olaf_h>
yes, that shows to me, that there is speaking a 'sender' not a guy who is interested into real discussion
<Regenaxer>
right
<olaf_h>
okay, so we agree, that's fine. thanks for that.
<Regenaxer>
He claims to have done lots of picolisp programming, and then does not know the concept of 'cons'
<olaf_h>
:-) and questions from others to show or link sth were ignored constantly.
<Regenaxer>
T
<Regenaxer>
He just advertises WebAsm which is useless to replace pil in current use cases
<Regenaxer>
anyway, let's ignore him
<Regenaxer>
and hope he gives up
<olaf_h>
i won't judge on him, the world needs queer (don't know if it is the right word) minds (german: Querkopf / Querköpfe), but this is disturbing others as it seems, and this is not okay, i think.
<olaf_h>
but let's come to a completely other topic :-)
<Regenaxer>
ok :)
<olaf_h>
pilCon 2020 for me seems to get a boost bec of the covid disadvantages
<Regenaxer>
not sure. Perhaps more people are able to attend
<olaf_h>
yes, maybe less private and less fun character of the sessions
<Regenaxer>
I'm thinking to propose something new in the mailing list. Going away from the "linear" format
<Regenaxer>
Other such conferences just streamed presentations
<olaf_h>
but for picolisp as language and spreading the word it could be a + to make vid sessions
<Regenaxer>
yes, sure
<Regenaxer>
But as other conferences changed to simply streaming the presentations is quite useless
<olaf_h>
and do the others still look like conference or more or less like youtube channels?
<Regenaxer>
you dont need a conf for that
<Regenaxer>
anybody can just view the videos at any time
<Regenaxer>
normal web sites
<Regenaxer>
So we should think of some more interactive format
<olaf_h>
when i attended to that only conference i know about, the 'live' factor was an enormous factor
<Regenaxer>
you mean a real conference?
<Regenaxer>
real life
<olaf_h>
they streamed the presentations of a real conference in a reserved hotel
<Regenaxer>
that's ok
<Regenaxer>
but we have no real now
<Regenaxer>
Why not simply gather virtually at some defined points in time, and start question/answers?
<olaf_h>
yes, but we could have a everyone-at-his-place and all-at-the-same-time for a few sessions
<Regenaxer>
exactly
<olaf_h>
okay, we do mean the same thing
<Regenaxer>
more interaction
<Regenaxer>
I think so
<olaf_h>
others call it zoom or so :-) the new hype
<Regenaxer>
right
<olaf_h>
i totally agree.
<Regenaxer>
It does not even have to be 3 days in sequence
<Regenaxer>
can be two hours on a specific weekday
<Regenaxer>
perhaps sliding day-of-time to handle different time zones
<Regenaxer>
one day morning in Europe, one day evening
<olaf_h>
yes, may depend on how many guys will present oder show sth
<Regenaxer>
yes, even that can be discussed interactively
<olaf_h>
yes, why not. hotel could not move timezones, virtual conference can
<Regenaxer>
T
<olaf_h>
okay, sounds fine.
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<olaf_h>
i have to do a bit of money work now :-) but was fun to look into here after so much time again.
<olaf_h>
thanks for taking the time, Regenaxer!
<Regenaxer>
The "schedule" would announce who is available when, the rest could be dynamic (as picolisp ;)
<Regenaxer>
Welcome! :)
<olaf_h>
"schedule": agree
<Regenaxer>
Let's discuss this here a little more, when ohers dropped in, then post to the list
<olaf_h>
yes, i will try to come in more often. bye for now, see you soon
<Regenaxer>
after all, the idea for PilCon was born here too
<Regenaxer>
ok, see you!
<Regenaxer>
you can read the logs
<olaf_h>
:-) thanks to whitequark.org :-) i know
<Regenaxer>
T
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<beneroth>
nice guy, this olaf_h :D
<Regenaxer>
indeed
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, what do you think of a non-linear conference?
<Regenaxer>
A "Ting"
<Regenaxer>
or PowWow ?
<beneroth>
sounds good
<beneroth>
but it is a separate concept than pilcon
<Regenaxer>
Yes. In which regard?
<beneroth>
pilcon: event at specific time with specific duration (be it over days whatever).
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
olaf_h proposal I understand as: periodic online meetings (weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly, whatever), like regular locale club meetings
<Regenaxer>
Such "event at specific time" makes sense for physical attendance
<Regenaxer>
yes, it was my proposal
<beneroth>
so a bit more formal and more specific (ideally with topics) than our daily meetings here :P
<Regenaxer>
I'm thinking about it since a few days
<beneroth>
like periodic locale CCC club meeting
<beneroth>
ah
<beneroth>
well: great idea
<beneroth>
only risk I see is that (probably not at the beginning) we could attract too many Guido's
<Regenaxer>
It is more that I find the idea of streaming presentations quite brainless
<beneroth>
weaking the very strong picolisp filter effect :)
<Regenaxer>
right
<Regenaxer>
this is a danger
<beneroth>
well streaming without capture for later download is brainless, agreed
<Regenaxer>
But Guidos don't dare to
<Regenaxer>
even streaming with capture
<Regenaxer>
you dont need a conf
<Regenaxer>
just post on websites
<beneroth>
conf = specific gathering about specific topics.
<beneroth>
but yes, we could size them down, and spread them to every week in the year or so
<beneroth>
or bi-weekly
<Regenaxer>
right, gathering + topics are there
<beneroth>
that would give more new people, and stronger bounding of the community
<Regenaxer>
yes
<beneroth>
currently IRC here is the focal point of the core community, which basically is not more than maybe 5 people
<Regenaxer>
So we should make dates plus topics plus who is responsible for those
<Regenaxer>
the rest is free
<beneroth>
yes
<Regenaxer>
Rising hands in jitsi
<Regenaxer>
so it gets a life discussion
<beneroth>
topics are needed, or heavily advised, I would say. else it is just a friends meeting which loses focus quickly
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
yes, sure
<beneroth>
well I want to re-install the current jitsi server for sure
<Regenaxer>
I could do pil21 and pilBox for example
* beneroth
just remembers he still hasn't done the latest updates from this week
<Regenaxer>
ah, ok, good
<beneroth>
I guess I also have to look into bandwidth, maybe we like to have a bit more than standard hosting quotage
<beneroth>
but I can look into that
<beneroth>
yes
<Regenaxer>
and we think of some policy, about video
<beneroth>
and I can do comparisons to other stacks (similiar to mtsd), and talk about how I use it
<beneroth>
and I can make tutorials, if I have/get the time for it ;-)
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<beneroth>
(which I much want, but really to much other important stuff still going on here)
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
yes, that's why many short events are better
<beneroth>
simple, short and precise communication/discussion has to be ensured
<beneroth>
the picolisp principles
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
eg. on each friday one hour
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
one morning, one evening alternating
<Regenaxer>
or such times
<beneroth>
I recommend that we find a fixed day, not planning the next meeting each time.
<Regenaxer>
right
<beneroth>
better have some "empty" slots, than slots that then get delayed forever
<Regenaxer>
a schedule
<beneroth>
aye
<Regenaxer>
Topics and responsive gui announcedd always 2 weeks in advance
<beneroth>
better a meeting which is shorter because no more topics, than the meeting being delayed forever because the 3 people who really want/should attend can never find a perfect match for all
<Regenaxer>
not responsive
<beneroth>
"event manager"
<beneroth>
per topic?
<Regenaxer>
yes, better
<beneroth>
haha
<beneroth>
I have the perfect domain for it
<beneroth>
picolisp.club
<Regenaxer>
cool!!
<beneroth>
I reserved it some years ago already
<Regenaxer>
so the gui in charge could be "chairman"
<beneroth>
good
<beneroth>
event manager (with fancy title)
<beneroth>
per topic
<beneroth>
and "chariman" per evening, ensuring the structure of the evening
<beneroth>
chairman
<Regenaxer>
:)
<Regenaxer>
This sounds like a lot of fun
<beneroth>
or *evil grin* "chm" in your naming convention? :P
<Regenaxer>
of course :)
<beneroth>
aye
<Regenaxer>
(class +Club) (rel chm (+Link) ...
<beneroth>
:)
<beneroth>
Club is beneroth style, should be Clb :P
<Regenaxer>
4 chars are acceptable
<Regenaxer>
until 7
<beneroth>
sorry for making fun of you, I just fear the day I have to take over your code :P
<Regenaxer>
(fit into short name)
<Regenaxer>
No problem I'm sure
<beneroth>
yeah I know :)
<beneroth>
ah thanks
<beneroth>
ok
<beneroth>
so that is decided
<Regenaxer>
yay
<beneroth>
leaves the question if we shut down pilcon entirely, or not
<beneroth>
probably
<beneroth>
fully replaced by periodic meetings
<Regenaxer>
yes, can keep the name for the total
<beneroth>
implementation: 1) lets talk again in 1 month, then I could have the time to program a website to handle that stuff well, or 2) you make a custom wiki or format.l app, I offer you some hosting space or can point picolisp.club wherever you want
<Regenaxer>
PilCon is the total process, and club meeting are the elements
<beneroth>
ok
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
think more, then ask in the list
<beneroth>
I would already have some ideas for how to do it in practice
<Regenaxer>
let's first hear others, mtsd, aw- etc
<beneroth>
but no time at the moment, sorry
<Regenaxer>
same here
<Regenaxer>
I hope to be more free in May
<beneroth>
rewriting and improving my software stack, and big projects to implement, better finished yesterday than tomorrow
<beneroth>
ah okay
<beneroth>
so same situation :)
<Regenaxer>
BTG is on Kurzabeit then
<beneroth>
ah
<Regenaxer>
yes
<beneroth>
BTG is the event messe, oder is that the other one?
<beneroth>
I guess it looks pretty grim for any kind of event industry
<Regenaxer>
BTG Messe-Spedition
<beneroth>
ah
<beneroth>
aaah
<beneroth>
ok, I see
<Regenaxer>
yes, all Messen cancelled
<beneroth>
that will not change in a big way within months
<beneroth>
probably years
<Regenaxer>
sigh
<beneroth>
not weeks, whatever the politicians want to believe
<Regenaxer>
surely
<Regenaxer>
You already use a contact tracing app in Uisse?
<Regenaxer>
Suisse
<beneroth>
no. but the decentral privacy protecting one is developed mainly here
<Regenaxer>
I have some hope it will help
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
heard about it
<beneroth>
leading by professors in virology and machine learning from ETH Lausanne, a friend of mine knows them personally
<Regenaxer>
Germany decided for a de
<Regenaxer>
central one too
<beneroth>
well this is the only one, afaik
<Regenaxer>
yes, must be
<beneroth>
austria and estonia pledged to use it, too
<beneroth>
but I have my doubts that it will really work in practice, able to scale up
<Regenaxer>
Unfortunately Telekom AND SAP develop it
<beneroth>
because the required traffic (internet) on all devices will be high
<beneroth>
and high battery consumptions for running bluetooth the whole time and doing all that encryption stuff
<beneroth>
telekom should first learn to properly provide internet ;-)
<beneroth>
but they're too big to be able to that
<beneroth>
to do that
<Regenaxer>
T
<Regenaxer>
haha, "Augenhöhe mit Apple/Google"
<beneroth>
a good tracing app could help
<Regenaxer>
I believe so
<beneroth>
all bullshit, yep :)
<beneroth>
but its not the main pillar
<beneroth>
the main point is professional tracers + quick isolation + much much much much much testing
<beneroth>
but that isn't what europe is doing
<beneroth>
Switzerland is partially even reducing testing capacity currently
<Regenaxer>
hmm
<beneroth>
while the infections which happen in CH and Germany are still community spread
<beneroth>
they're not fully traced yet. not really being traced afaik.
<Regenaxer>
Let's see
<beneroth>
and it's not limited to health personal, what would be the optimistic expectation at this point
<beneroth>
we will ease up now, because of pressure from economy and stupid general population
<beneroth>
and probably get hell back within May
<Regenaxer>
or later
<beneroth>
I hope not, but... it's likely
<Regenaxer>
autumn
<beneroth>
no earlier
<beneroth>
coronavirus is not weather dependent, the effect is too small
<Regenaxer>
lets stay optimistic :)
<beneroth>
we might get a wave back from africa eventually
<beneroth>
which might fall into autumn, dunno
<beneroth>
but I fear that we will get a bad hit soon as a result of the lockdown easing now
<Regenaxer>
Not so much the weather, but people are tiring over time
<beneroth>
yes
<Regenaxer>
discipline goes away
<beneroth>
and if you keep lockdown, and keep the pandemic in check, than everyone will say: see, you destroyed economy for nothing
<beneroth>
so politicians have no choice
<beneroth>
they have to open up, bad things need to happen before we can listen to the scientists again
<Regenaxer>
Sorry, must continue here
<beneroth>
ok :)
<beneroth>
I should too
<beneroth>
thanks :)
<Regenaxer>
:)
<beneroth>
sorry for the bad mood :)
<Regenaxer>
no worry!
<beneroth>
I look forward to the great picolisp forever conference :)
<beneroth>
will be awesome
<Regenaxer>
me too
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<Nistur>
hulloo
<Regenaxer>
Evening Nistur
<Nistur>
hullo :)
<Nistur>
Every evening, MrsNistur puts MiniNisturette to bed, which takes about 30 minutes, and then sits with her for a further 1h... so I have 1h30m to myself, to do things. There are a few chores I need to do (dishes, tidying up etc) but it usually ends up with about 1h every day before I take my shift... I have been spending it working in the allotment recently, because there's stuff that needs to be done,
<Nistur>
and/or tidying my shed, because it desperately needs it... but it's poor weather... it wasn't raining, but it had, and threatened to start again, so I needed something I could either do inside (or in the shed), or I could clean up quickly if it started raining. Tidying my shed was not an option, as I need to currently empty a load of things outside to make space to continue tidying
<Nistur>
... that is already more text than I expected, I'm sorry... anyway that was just a long intro to the following sentence:
<Nistur>
I decided I would try to start the physical penti keyboard project
<Regenaxer>
Good text, nice!
<Regenaxer>
My first Penti in the early 90s was also physical
<Nistur>
I didn't do _much_ as I didn't have enough time really, but I had some MDF I cut to the same size (no idea how big, it was just offcuts I cut to the same sort of size) I sanded the paint off, clamped and glued it, then on second thought, as I would attack it with some very angry tools to shape it, drilled holes through it and glued some dowels through it
<Regenaxer>
hand-soldered, National Semiconductor's SC/MP CPU
<Nistur>
Regenaxer: do you have photos?
<Regenaxer>
I use one in my twitter and mastodon profiles
<Regenaxer>
@Regenaxer@social.tchncs.de or twitter.com/Regenaxer
<Nistur>
nice :)
<Nistur>
mine will look a little different to that :P
<Nistur>
Currently it's just a stack of 4x18mm thick rectangles of MDF
<Nistur>
not sure how tall I'll make it in the end, but I felt that was enough space to play with... I'm basing my idea on ergonomic mice
<Nistur>
so with fingers going up a slope and the thumb on the side
<Regenaxer>
sounds good
<Nistur>
I shall have photos. I have photos now, but they are literally just of rectangles of MDF, so until there's more after them, it's pretty pointless to share them :P
<Regenaxer>
ok :)
<Nistur>
and I'll probably just use something like a teensy to run it
<Regenaxer>
One simple way is buying a stand-alone numeric keypay
<Regenaxer>
I used Penti on a notebook on the numpad
<Regenaxer>
by writing a Linux evdev driver
<Regenaxer>
But notebook is too clumsy
<Regenaxer>
I want more mobile devices
<Regenaxer>
Ideally a tablet, but there are no good ones on the market
<Nistur>
Teensy I believe are the goto board of choice for home made keyboards
<Regenaxer>
all too small in memory for my purpose
<Nistur>
with onboard USB
<Nistur>
how big do you need?
<Regenaxer>
At least 8 + 256 GiB
<Regenaxer>
So I settled with a OnePlus phone last year, and I'm very satisfied
<Nistur>
:)
<Regenaxer>
even more "mobile" than a tablet
<Regenaxer>
I got accustomed to the smaller screen
<Regenaxer>
and hope for foldables in the future
<Nistur>
I like Linux, and I very very very rarely start a GUI, and I like physical keyboards... so developing on a mobile device is not for me
<Regenaxer>
I want to hack my ideas into it whereever I am, on toilet or when walking in the wood
<Regenaxer>
unfortunately not under the shower, needs a rugged one
<Regenaxer>
next one :)
<Nistur>
I was just going to say, with my tablet, I am currently just using connectbot + penti to practice with that... so I am sort of using that kind of without GUI :P
<Regenaxer>
me too
<Regenaxer>
all in Tmux under Termux
<Regenaxer>
I have usually 3 Termux sessions
<Regenaxer>
each on anether machine
<Regenaxer>
(one local on the device)
<Nistur>
I also _do_ have a Google Glass upstairs, I was actually wondering about whether an SSH client for that would be feasible or if the display is too small
<Nistur>
I use GNU screen normally
<Regenaxer>
each termuh session has up to 9 Tmux sessions
<Regenaxer>
screen is more limited
<Nistur>
not for my setup
<Nistur>
tmux doesn't do one of the things I need
<Nistur>
which is, to have windows at different sizes
<Regenaxer>
Why not? I split the screens in tmux
<Nistur>
because when I'm at my computer, I have multiple displays showing different windows, but the displays are different resolutions
<Nistur>
not split screens
<Nistur>
I have a pi on each monitor
<Regenaxer>
Why should it not work with Tmux?
<Nistur>
which automagically SSHs into my computer, and attaches to a different window of the screen session
<Nistur>
2 of the monitors are portrait
<Nistur>
one is landscape
<Nistur>
tmux enforces that within one session, these have to be the same dimensions
<Nistur>
I asked tmux devs about this and they said it's as designed and they won't change it
<Nistur>
so, I use screen
<Regenaxer>
yes, the session shows reduced on a larger screen
<Regenaxer>
not an issue here, all on the phone
<Nistur>
not on screen, I can have different windows at different sizes :D
<Regenaxer>
I need multiple windows
<Regenaxer>
quickly switching
<Regenaxer>
So screen is intolerably limited
<Nistur>
but either way, I have yet to hear of features of tmux which I need on screen. I have everything I need, and would lose something I actually use heavily, if I were to switch to tmux
<Nistur>
... how does screen not switch windows quickly? :S
<Regenaxer>
I don't know
<Nistur>
what I mean is, I've never had any issues with switching windows
<Regenaxer>
can you ssh to a remote machine, then split to an arbitrary number of windows?
<Regenaxer>
Sorry, must stop
<Nistur>
ok
<Regenaxer>
family business :)
<Nistur>
enjoy :P
<Regenaxer>
you too! :)
<beneroth>
heya
<Nistur>
o7
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<beneroth>
hey aw-
<beneroth>
or aw-'s auto-reconnecting proxy
<beneroth>
:)
<DKordic>
Greeting beneroth. Are You in the mood for a philosophical discussion :) ?
<beneroth>
hey DKordic
<beneroth>
tired, and I should do some accounting work here
<beneroth>
but what is the topic? :)
<DKordic>
beneroth: Shall we assume that ""False = True"", which can only be expressed in Python ;) , is a ""SyntaxError"" rather then a Thought Crime?!
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