<aeth>
Unfortunately, I don't think Chicken has a total anywhere, so you'd have to count manually.
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<aidalgol>
Is there an "Why?" somewhere, regarding the move to Chez?
<aidalgol>
I've just seen progress updates lately, but I haven't found an original motivaton statement.
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<aeth>
Oh, and for comparison, in Common Lisp, (length (ql:system-list)) => 4180
<aeth>
So only about 4x as many libraries as Racket.
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<aeth>
Emacs Lisp's MELPA has 4,078 packages but it's not quite directly comparable to a language's libraries (most are Emacs modes, not libraries for Emacs Lisp)
<aidalgol>
Also, does anyone know why Racket's class system was not modelled after CLOS like Guile's (GOOPS) was?
<aeth>
Oh, and one more thing, Clojure appears to have 23,448 projects, which is probably the most of a Lisp or Lisp-like language depending on how you want to classify Clojure. https://clojars.org/projects
<friscosam>
aidalgol: the reason is maintenance
<friscosam>
Matthew states it in the latest report
<aeth>
Counting <item> by searching for "item" and dividing by two (closing tags) in Chicken Eggs RSS I get 247 so if that's a complete list then Racket has about 4.5x as many libraries. http://eggs.call-cc.org/rss-5.xml
<friscosam>
re: CLOS I cannot find a citation but my gut feeling is that it has something to do with the Smalltalk/Java style of classes and messages is closer to industry languages so it works better for teaching. And also Generic methods introduce some mysterious actions at a distance
<aeth>
If my numbers are accurate that's for Schemes: 1121 for Racket, 247 for Chicken, and 109 for Guile. For related non-Schemes: 4180 for CL, 4078 (* all Emacs packages, not just libraries) for Emacs Lisp, and 23448 for Clojure.
<aidalgol>
re. "Smalltalk/Java style"… You offend Smalltalk's honor, sir! :P
<aeth>
Unless there's a major oversight I'd expect all other Lisp-like numbers to be much lower than these 6.
<friscosam>
if you really want CLOS I think there is still the swindle language which is a port of tinyclos
<friscosam>
what can I say they both have single inheritance and message/method calling
<friscosam>
:p
<aeth>
(One last thing: I'm aware that not every library is in an official package system, but I'm operating under the perhaps mistaken assumption that the percentage in the package system is going to be the same for all languages.)
<aidalgol>
friscosam: I'm not a CLer, but I enjoyed GOOPS from what little I've done with it, and found Smalltalk-style message-passing a poorer fit than CLOS-style for lisp.
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<aidalgol>
(cue someone linking an experimental lisp based on Smalltalk)
<aidalgol>
If that doesn't exist, I will be very disappointed.
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<friscosam>
I never got around to it :)
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<friscosam>
I preferred making experimental smalltalks
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<aidalgol>
When I was in high school, I kinda wanted to make such a language just so I could call it "thmalltalk".
<friscosam>
I vauguely remember a Lisp that was smalltalkey but it mostly made me think of smalltalk with too many parend
<friscosam>
s/parend/parens/
<aeth>
you can never have too many parens
<aidalgol>
Then there's the other way: sweet expressions, lisp with all the parens missing.
<aeth>
That's like drinking decaf coffee
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<aidalgol>
Hey, I can only drink decaf coffee these days. :(
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<friscosam>
honu is a real cool syntax idea
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<johnjay>
aeth: please continue. i'm interested in the methods you're coming up with to count packages
<johnjay>
ah ok
<johnjay>
sweet expressions. instead of eval you have expresso. apply is fraply
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<jcowan>
It's a question, however, how many of those Racket packages are just student projects that nobody has used or will use.
<jcowan>
Racket is no more immune to the Cures of Lisp than any other Lisp.
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<greghendershott>
jcowan: You can (call/input-url (string->url "https://pkgs.racket-lang.org/pkgs-all") get-pure-port read) to get a hash-table of all packages
<greghendershott>
And walk that to get the direct or transitive deps
<greghendershott>
To see how what pkgs depend on others
<greghendershott>
Many have non-zero other pkgs depending on them. :)
<jcowan>
A good start. But which packages are actually used in anger?
<greghendershott>
That isn't downloads, and it doesn't include use of the pkgs in apps that aren't on the pkg mgr.
<greghendershott>
How would you know? I supposed you could try to look at info.rkt files on github, gitlab, etc.
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<jcowan>
My point exactly: it's just hard to say.
<soegaard>
"in anger"? (I missed the beginning of the conversation)
<bremner>
military tinged jargon for "used for a real project", rather than just goofing around
<soegaard>
thanks
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<greghendershott>
jcowan: Well you kind of raised the bar from pkgs "anybody uses or will use" to "used in anger". :)
<greghendershott>
What's next? Used in projects with 10,000 end users or $1m revenue? ;)
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* jcowan
laughs
<jcowan>
I know how hard it is to keep a conceptual grip on Chicken's packages: a repository ten times as large has to be much worse.
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<mb01>
pollen question, I can't get `#lang pollen` to produce anything other than quoted lists e.g. `◊em{emphasis to words}` -> `'(em "emphasis to words")`
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<bremner>
uh, bye?
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<soegaard>
hi mb01 !
<mb01>
hello, sorry I dropped out for a second.
<soegaard>
That sounds right - the output you see in,say, DrRacket is supposed to be used as input for a renderer.
<mb01>
Thanks, I might be missing something. I did run raco pollen render index.html.pp and checked index.html in my browser
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<mb01>
ok, I see where it says add ".pm" to the filename
<mb01>
great, problem solved
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<johnjay>
soegaard: ah hello soegaard
<johnjay>
if i recall you were the racketmacs guy right
<soegaard>
yep
<johnjay>
i've been hanging out in #emacs awhile. i noticed aside from basic questions
<johnjay>
most of the questions are Hi I'm using super-specific-prog-mode for editing XYZ files, how do i fix this problem
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<soegaard>
;-)
<johnjay>
so if you wanted to make a racket emacs... would that imply you have to port a bunch of really niche stuff
<johnjay>
is what i was wondering
<johnjay>
i still am not sure what exactly dart-mode is supposed to do
<soegaard>
Well - the goal is not to implement copy of Emacs (in particular I don't want to implement elisp). Rather I want an editor that works like Emacs, but uses Racket instead of elisp.
<johnjay>
right
<soegaard>
However I'd like for the API to similar to Emacs, s.t. that people used to elisp will feel at home.
<johnjay>
what i'm saying is, that makes sense if it's c-mode or java-mode people use
<johnjay>
but if people are using wtfomgbbq-mode and wazzup-mode and what else
<johnjay>
then that's a lot harder
<johnjay>
idk, maybe those are just the modes people debug. XD
<soegaard>
Yes - you are absolutely right. In order to attract people, a lot of modes would need to ported.
<johnjay>
that's the thing, i feel like to port a mode you'd have to actually use the thing the mode is about
<johnjay>
idk
<soegaard>
The question is whether it is worth spending time on an editor at all.
<johnjay>
i just found out there's 2 perl modes, perl-mode and cperl-mode
<johnjay>
as opposed to what, abstract libraries for those languages or something?
<soegaard>
Emacs, VScode etc are very good and have much more resources behind them.
<johnjay>
didn'tknow vscode was a large project
<johnjay>
it looked like a stripped down VS
<soegaard>
In order to get to something that looks like a modern editor takes a while.