ChanServ changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 1.9.3-p125: http://ruby-lang.org | Paste >3 lines of text on http://pastie.org or use a gist
<zenspider> yay indeed. much more readable too
<zenspider> line count went down, but character count prolly went up overall...
<zenspider> multiline strings are indented for readability and then stripped back for testing
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<postmodern> how does one log the segfaults from ruby 1.9?
<postmodern> need to log exactly where in some C code I'm triggering a segfault
<banisterfiend> postmodern: hey postmodern-dogg
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<postmodern> banisterfiend, hello?
<banisterfiend> postmodern: you mean in relation to the ruby or the c?
<banisterfiend> doesn't the stacktrace containt that iinfo?
<postmodern> banisterfiend, the C
<banisterfiend> postmodern: i thought 1.9 stacktraces included that info, if they dont u might have to run in gdb
<banisterfiend> and use 'bt'
<postmodern> banisterfiend, this is for fuzzing a C library
<banisterfiend> u could look at the core file
<postmodern> yeah i suppose i could force coredumps on
<banisterfiend> get into the core file and type; bt i guess
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<zenspider> postmodern: neversaydie!
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<zenspider> finally! a real use for it!
<postmodern> zenspider, i know that uses libsegv, how much information can I capture?
<zenspider> go look
<zenspider> gotta run
<postmodern> zenspider, awesome ty
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<Kellin> okay - because I'm insane - tested with sudo before bed
<Kellin> sudo , unlike su, does not require an actual login shell in /etc/passwd
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<Kellin> much much nicer from a security standpoint - thanks for pointing out that it can drop into user roles in addition to escalating privileges
<Kellin> thanks =)
<Kellin> good night folks!
<Kellin> (sorry - wrong channel - )
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<corecode> o hi
<corecode> is there a reasonable way to capture stdout/stderr/return code of a process, using array of strings to invoke, instead of shell interpreted string?
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<yxhuvud> ruby version?
<kvs> corecode: Open3
<corecode> yxhuvud: yea :/
<corecode> yxhuvud: both?
<yxhuvud> kvs: open3 on 1.8.7 doesn't handle return code.
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<kvs> people still use 1.8? :)
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<corecode> yea, seems
<henk> Too much broken with 1.9 :-/
<kvs> patches are probably accepted gladly
<kvs> I've been using 1.9 exclusively for the past couple of years - can't really remember much beside ruby-debug being broken
<banisterfiend> henk: what's breaking for u
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<henk> banisterfiend: puppet mainly. Also there are no xmms2 bindings for ruby 1.9
<banisterfiend> kvs: that's not a breakage in MRI though more a miscommunication and also disorganization
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<banisterfiend> henk: ah you were saying there was software broken on 1.9 rather than 1.9 being broken itself
<kvs> banisterfiend: doesn't matter - between you and Mon_Ouie a better alternative has appeared :)
<banisterfiend> kvs: oh you're talking about pry_debug ?
<kvs> yeah
<banisterfiend> cool, i didnt know people used that
<banisterfiend> +1 Mon_Ouie :)
<henk> banisterfiend: I consider ruby 1.9 broken when applications running fine in ruby1.8 don’t run in ruby 1.9.
<Mon_Ouie> I still use it from time to time ;)
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<henk> banisterfiend: But my point is mainly about the reasoning to use ruby 1.8, not about what is actually broken, ruby or software written in ruby.
<Muz> Unfortunately, some of us still use 1.8.7 because it's the latest version supported on our /Enterprise/ systems.
<banisterfiend> henk: you're wrong to think that :) 1.9 introduced backwards incompatible changes that were clearly documented and not that hard to fix
<banisterfiend> henk: they've also had about 4 years to bring their software up to speed
<kvs> banisterfiend: but maybe they should've bumped the version to 2.0
<banisterfiend> henk: at this stage, it's entirely their fault
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<banisterfiend> kvs: they just have a weird versioning scheme
<Muz> On the topic of enterprise; at least Java manages to get backwards compatibility vaguely right.
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<Muz> Even though it's at the price of having new features, and moving at the speed of a comatose snail in treacle.
<kvs> heh
<kvs> but seriously, not calling it 2.0 is pretty bad
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<kvs> it's comparable to the whole PHP 5.2/5.3/5.4 mess
<banisterfiend> kvs: i think they're going to start with a more intuitive versioning system after 2.0
<burgestrand> hehe
<burgestrand> "not this time, but next one!"
<banisterfiend> hehe
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<kvs> didn't they already have that? as I understood it, 1.9 was supposed to be a dev-version, which just never really evolved into the 2.0 stable it should have been
<banisterfiend> i dont remember the exact story
<banisterfiend> i read it somehwere tho..
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<kvs> there was a Ruby 1.7 in between 1.6 and 1.8
<henk> banisterfiend: As I said: I don’t care whose fault it is. And thanks for the correction on what I am supposed to think.
<banisterfiend> henk: if someone doesn't upgrade their software for a new version of ruby which has been clearly communicated to have breaking changes, then the fault is on them. Esp. when they've had four years to do it.
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<banisterfiend> or maybe the fault is on you ;) if you're trying to run software that only says it's 1.8 compatible on 1.9 :)
<henk> Or maybe … We just all have an opinion about that and think it is "clearly" the one everyone should have or he is "wrong to think that" …
<banisterfiend> henk: Yeah, some people are still of the opinion the world is flat ;)
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<henk> Yeah, and some still think backwards compatibility really means being compatible with previous versions or that ruby is ruby …
<henk> fools
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<banisterfiend> henk: except they never said it was backwards compatible
<banisterfiend> that's the point.
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<banisterfiend> henk: 1.9 was said to introduce a few breaking changes
<banisterfiend> 1.9 is a major release, it's just an unorthodox versioning scheme. Would you feel the same if it was named ruby 2.0 ?
<henk> So it’s not actually ruby anymore but ruby1.8 and ruby1.9, who knows if ruby 2.5 will still be related to ruby at all or maybe using python syntax? As long as it’s announced, everyone expecting it to be would be wrong, right?
<kvs> also, why doesn't QEMM386 work with my Windows 7?
<banisterfiend> henk: are you daft? you really think langauges aren't allowed to introduce breaking changes in major releases? that's the point of a major release
<banisterfiend> henk: python 3 was even worse afaik, and nobody complains that "python 3 is broken" when their python 2.0 programs dont 'just work' on it
<kvs> any major of PHP is the same, and now even the last three minors of php5 too
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<Tasser> banisterfiend, they should call it freakking ruby 1.10
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<henk> banisterfiend: Right, the point of every major release is to make changes breaking existing and working software. Way to go.
<banisterfiend> henk: no, not the point. But that they're allowed to do that. It's an opportunity to get rid of mistakes and kruft from the past. For example, would you be happy if block variables in 1.9 were still lexical closures as in 1.8 ?
<banisterfiend> it was a mistake in 1.8 and resulted in weird bugs
<banisterfiend> henk: x = 3; (1..10).each { |x| } .. what should x be? The behaviour in 1.8 was broken, and needed to be fixed
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<Hakon> i don't get it, why does it say i'm banned here?
<banisterfiend> similarly it was just plain creepy that block variables i 1.8 could be any kind of variable: (1..10).each { |@x| } worked
<Hakon> atleast earlier today
<banisterfiend> Hakon: because you hvae to login
<Hakon> ah, getit
<Hakon> i couldn't change my nick to my registered nick because of it
<Hakon> :P
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<henk> banisterfiend: It’s great that bugs get fixed. It’s not great that software gets broken.
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<banisterfiend> henk: except it wasn't a 'bug' it was a design flaw. I'm assuming 99% of the breaking changes you'er complaining about were design flaws that were subsequently fixed in 1.9
<workmad3> henk: you can't always maintain backwards compatibility... that's why we have version numbers
<workmad3> henk: and 1.9 was the first ruby since 1.0 that didn't manage to maintain backwards compatibility, iirc
<workmad3> henk: and besides, it's hard to rant about 'what is ruby' when the standard for ruby is only just being formalised and I believe it's formalising around 1.9 ;)
<henk> So to get back to the fault: the fault is "clearly" with the ruby programmers for designing a flawed language and now that that shit is fixed, the fault "clearly" got shifted to application developers? Clever.
<banisterfiend> lol
<lzhz> henk: while it is not great that software gets broken, it is sometimes a necessary trade-off.
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<banisterfiend> henk: if i buy an upgraded lawn mower that is electric rather than petrol, you'd keep pouring petrol in it anyway, and start complaining when it doesnt work?
<banisterfiend> you*
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<banisterfiend> even though it says clearly on the box 'this is now an electric lawnmower, faster, more efficient, and cheaper'
<anildigital_work> Is it good idea to use rescue one liner?
<anildigital_work> or it should be always used with blocks?
<anildigital_work> what do you say?
<Mon_Ouie> It's a bad idea, it hides bug
<Mon_Ouie> Specifically rescue the exception you care about when you need to
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<lzhz> seconded
<henk> banisterfiend: There is a saying in German, loosely translated it says "This comparison limps", and another one saying "Not everything that limps is a comparison" …
<banisterfiend> henk: you're basically saying langauge developers have to relese a 'perfect' language first at 1.0? and after that they cant make improvements to it in subsequent major versions? Some improvements need to break backwards compatibility. The important thing is that those breakages aer clearly documented, which they were, and that it happens only in major releases, which is what ahppened here (1.9 was a major release).
<henk> banisterfiend: So to answer your question: Yes, I would complain if the mower is still called exactly as my previous model with just the version number increased. And I actually do that for other products already.
<Mon_Ouie> Are there any softwares that change name after introducing compatibility breaking changes?
<henk> banisterfiend: I’m not. I’m saying that it’s easy for you to say the developers using ruby are at fault because they don’t fix their code, when it’s actually the ruby developers who made the mistakes in the first place.
<banisterfiend> henk: Actually i think it's you who are at fault. I'm sure the developers of puppet never expected you to use it on 1.9 if it doesnt actually work on 1.9. Or do they say it's 1.9 compatible?
<banisterfiend> If they actually said it's 1.9 compatible and it doesnt work there, then yes they're at fault.
<banisterfiend> If they didnt' say i tworks on 1.9, and yet you are using it there, then it's you who are at fault. My guess is it's you. :)
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<banisterfiend> henk: Yep, definitely you: http://docs.puppetlabs.com/guides/faq.html
<banisterfiend> there's a table there saying not to use it with 1.9
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<banisterfiend> after that retarded little argument i feel a lot dumber, bbl after playing some doom 2
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<henk> banister`doom: oh, dumb me … I forgot to check the minor versions of the prerequisites. What a noob mistake. Everyone knows ruby isn’t ruby and libreoffice isn’t just libreoffice. My xmms2 client is not my xmms2 client either, with version 2.0 it will become an mpd client and only those reading the changelog will know muahaha
<henk> banister`doom: Sorry you feel dumber, I’d have thought maybe you learned something from it …
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<darix> henk: people not reading the release notes of their tools are the same people who dont read the manual of their microwave and then try to dry their pets in it. and wonder if that doesnt give the results they expected.
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<henk> darix: release notes != manual
<henk> That comparison limps as much as the one about the lawn mower.
<darix> i am sure the ruby docs mentioned the changes too
<darix> later :)
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<asahi> proxies seem to be working on my local machine but not on my remote box, I'm getting Mechanize::ResponseCodeError: 403. any ideas?
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<yorickpeterse> How about you start with submitting your code to a pastebin?
<yorickpeterse> Right now you're asking us to find a needle in a haystack
<yorickpeterse> While wearing a blindfold
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<asahi> yorickpeterse: sure. https://gist.github.com/3144574
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<yorickpeterse> Still not pretty clear, Google usually gives a somewhat decent response message as to why a request failed
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<mfn> Should the Gemfile be part of the gem itself?
<yorickpeterse> Gemfiles go with the Gem, gemfile.lock does not
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<mfn> ah .. thx
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<asahi> yorickpeterse: what can I provide to make it more clear?
<yorickpeterse> Well for starters you could look at what response details Google gives back (in terms of error messages and such). Then you might want to check if there isn't some bug or rule in the proxy that prevents the particular request
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<asahi> yorickpeterse: okay. since the exact same code works on my local machine but not the remote one (the two also have the same ruby environment), I thought it was odd and maybe an issue with the port
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<robin850> Hello
<robin850> I have a function which can take several arguments and a last one like this def foo(*bar, baz)
<robin850> I want to set a default value on baz like this : def foo(*bar, baz = nil) but we can't with *bar. Does it exist a solution to solve this problem please ?
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<apeiros_> robin850: with foo(1,2,3), what value does baz have?
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<darix> robin850: have baz before bar?
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<Tasser> can I tell CSV to parse fields as float?
<Tasser> or to try to convert them?
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<apeiros_> Tasser: yes. I don't remember how, but it's in the docs iirc
<Tasser> apeiros_, converters: [:float]
<apeiros_> you can either tell it to autoconvert all values or I think you can do it per column
<robin850> apeiros_: with foo(1,2,3) baz == 3
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<apeiros_> robin850: probably foo(*bar); baz = pop; …
<apeiros_> whoops
<apeiros_> robin850: probably foo(*bar); baz = bar.pop; …
<robin850> darix: If I put baz befora bar, it could break some existing code in the application
<robin850> apeiros_: Nice !
<robin850> It's a good idea ! Thank you
<robin850> Thanks evryone for your help
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<apeiros_> robin850: plenking in western languages is wrong (that is, writing "foo !" instead of "foo!")
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<robin850> apeiros_: sorry ^^
<apeiros_> no need to apologize. I'm just telling you :)
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<robin850> apeiros_: I'm quite new on IRC so I prefer to apologize instead of seem to be a "scrounger" :)
<robin850> but I think you usually have people who comes without any "hello", etc.
<apeiros_> never a bad idea to have a bias towards politeness ;-)
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<robin850> apeiros_: It's more enjoyable for the chan too :)
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<lianj> young blood :)
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<Mon_Ouie> It's wrong in English, but not in all other "western languages"
<apeiros_> well, with a space it is in all western languages
<apeiros_> french uses a 1/4 space
<apeiros_> if you want to typographically correct
<robin850> apeiros_: Yes I'm french. I also put a space before a colon each time
<apeiros_> the problem with a space is that it is breakable, so if it's at the end of the line, it might be wrapped to the next
<apeiros_> the 1/4 space is also non-breakable
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<Mon_Ouie> The main problem is that most people don't have non-breaking space or the right quotes handy on their keyboards
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<apeiros_> Mon_Ouie: yupp, which is why you generally just don't put a space
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<Mon_Ouie> I'm pretty sure we generally do, using the non-breaking one when available. When it actually matters, softwares would usually take care of that kind of formatting anyway.
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<snorkdude> How do I call a variable inside single quotes in Ruby?
<yxhuvud> I'd call it a string
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<snorkdude> lol
<kristofferrr> snorkdude: Concatenation.
<kristofferrr> You can't use interpolation with single quotes.
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<snorkdude> That's what I have right now, but it doesn't work.
<kristofferrr> :lim.to_s
<snorkdude> I'll give it a try
<yxhuvud> that doesn't make sense - why are you concatenating two empty strings?
<snorkdude> I'm a noob.
<kristofferrr> Wait, that might just return the symbol name actually.
<snorkdude> I have no formal programming knowledge...
<kristofferrr> Just use :lim.
<mistym> What are you trying to do?
<snorkdude> Call a variable inside single quotes.
<snorkdude> @kristofferrr that didnt work
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<kristofferrr> You're trying to set the value of :limit to the value of :lim, right?
<snorkdude> I've edited my gist to show more code
<snorkdude> Yes, I am trying to set :limit = :lim
<yxhuvud> you don't set a symbol to anything. you can set a variable to something, like limit = :lim
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<yxhuvud> or in that case, more probably as it is a hash you are making, :limit => lim
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<mistym> :lim is just a string containing the letters "lim". You're trying to use a variable named "lim" instead, right?
<snorkdude> :lim is set through a form
<snorkdude> like right now, :lim == 4
<yxhuvud> mistym: no, :lim is not just a string. it is a symbol and nothing else.
<snorkdude> if i try to do :limit => lim, I get an error saying "lim" is undefined
<GarethAdams> snorkdude: if you're talking about Rails then :lim is not == 4. You might find that params[:lim] == 4
<mistym> yxhuvud: Yes, I know. I'm just simplifying that :lim is not a variable.
<yxhuvud> GarethAdams: looks like sinatra, but I suppose it might work here as well. dunno how sinatra handles form parameters.
<GarethAdams> snorkdude: but then, you're talking about a Hash called 'params' which has its :lim value set to 4
<snorkdude> GarethAdams: I'm actually using Sinatra, but I think you are right. I will try it
<GarethAdams> sorry I didn't see the actual code, just going by the snippet here
<GarethAdams> actually you're more likely to find that params[:lim] == "4"
<snorkdude> GarethAdams: a cookie for you sir, it worked!
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<retro|cz> Is there something like klass.inherited_from ?
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<GarethAdams> retro|cz: klass.superclass?
<mistym> retro|cz: There's also klass.ancestors, e.g. Class.ancestors => [Class, Module, Object, Kernel, BasicObject]
<retro|cz> mistym, thanks
<retro|cz> that's what I'm looking for
<retro|cz> GarethAdams, I tried it
<retro|cz> but I'm getting Object
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<GarethAdams> then it doesn't inherit from anything
<GarethAdams> but yes, ancestors contains included modules as well :)
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<Denommus> hi
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<rue> HI THERE YOU
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<retro|cz> Can I find where class is defined?
<retro|cz> in code?
<zenspider> it can be reopened many times, so no
<Tasser> retro|cz, you can find where a method is defined, use pry and show-source ;-)
<mistym> However, if you enjoy stupid Ruby tricks, you can get a method's source code location.
<mistym> klass.method(:foo).source_location
<retro|cz> Problem is I'm getting TypeError: superclass mismatch for class Business
<rue> object.method, precis.
<retro|cz> And I can't find where that another Business is
<jaimef> are :symbols global in ruby?
<rue> retro|cz: ack Business yourdirs ?
<retro|cz> grep -r 'class Business' .
<retro|cz> yup
<retro|cz> I have it.
<rue> jaimef: Symbols are values, so they’re global in the same way 1, 2, 3 are
<retro|cz> damn
<retro|cz> I'm stupid.
<Mon_Ouie> Also Pry has a command that can find where a class has been opened in Ruby code
<jaimef> rue thanks. someone here was saying we need to use strings as hash keys vs symbols as symbols are global and would create unforeseen problems
<jaimef> s/here/where I work/g
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<Tasser> Mon_Ouie, named?
<Mon_Ouie> I don't remember, I just remember they added it recently
<Defusal> jaimef, a symbol is a memory leak, once it has been created it is never garbage collected
<Mon_Ouie> Tasser: It's just in show-source
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<rue> jaimef: There’s a (usually theoretical) problem that symbols can’t be collected
<rue> Or, well, *aren’t* collected. They could be.
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<zenspider> jaimef: are you creating hash keys based on random or user generated input?
<zenspider> otherwise, it usually isn't ever a problem
<erikh> yeah, static symbols should be find
<erikh> it's foo.to_sym where you usually run into leaks.
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<tenderlove> ged: ppping
<tenderlove> ged: I'm reading pgconn_wait_for_notify, and I don't understand exactly how it works
<tenderlove> it *looks* like it's in a busy loop
<tenderlove> reading from PQnotifies
<tenderlove> but I don't see the process consuming 100%CPI
<tenderlove> err CPU
<tenderlove> is it the rb_thread_select that's blocking the thread?
<ged> tenderlove: Yes.
<tenderlove> k, thanks
<ged> tenderlove: It selects on the socket underlying the pgconn.
<tenderlove> I'm messing around with notifications, but it's got some weird behavior.
<tenderlove> like, I send a bunch of notifies in one thread
<tenderlove> and it takes the other thread a while to catch up
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<tenderlove> maybe I can make a demo program
<tenderlove> one thread is getting a bunch of notifications at once
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<tenderlove> n/m
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<tenderlove> I know what it is
<tenderlove> duh
<tenderlove> need one connection per thread
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<ged> They have some unintuitive behavior when used with transactions, too.
<tenderlove> ged: o_O
<tenderlove> what do they do?
<ged> The transaction can fail if the notify queue is full when it's committed.
<ged> It can happen if you LISTEN before entering a long-running transaction, for example.
<tenderlove> huh
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<tenderlove> interesting
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<ged> Also the server can elect to drop duplicate notifications from the same transaction.
<tenderlove> interesting
<tenderlove> I think that's okay
<tenderlove> are the rules for this written down somewhere?
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<ged> tenderlove: Most of it's in the notes for NOTIFY: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/sql-notify.html
<tenderlove> ah, I was reading the 8.3 docs
<tenderlove> wish they had `payload` in 8.3
<tenderlove> ged: thanks for the info!
<tenderlove> gtg
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