<felix_> anyway, i need to go home now; have to go to the tax office tomorrow to fix some stuff they fucked up which resulted in me getting a payment reminder letter and the answer to the email i wrote them showed that they only read half of my mail... *rant* *rant*
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<azonenberg_work> wooo https://imgur.com/a/c7N5M83
<azonenberg_work> Got a fair amount of wiring done today and hung another segment of tray
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: nice!
<azonenberg_work> That last photo especially i really like
<azonenberg_work> Once I'm done i will definitely be submitting to /r/cableporn lol
<azonenberg_work> But not gonna post the half-baked version
<felix_> whitequark: i had a look at the schematics for the cypress pd chip and i might tap the cc line without removing the plastic stuff. and the 5 pin connector contains swd; if i find my black magic probe, i could try to dump that flash too
<whitequark> felix_: sweet
<whitequark> much appreciated
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<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/compare/10b14c803771...724813e15f13
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 724813e whitequark: {gateware,applet}.uart: add support for parity bits.
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 03aaaf5 whitequark: applet.uart: add support for creating a ttyS-like PTY.
<travis-ci> whitequark/Glasgow#43 (master - 724813e : whitequark): The build was broken.
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<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/a47f3e3e6b4f279dac21ca413d7f2c984e074b62
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master a47f3e3 whitequark: applet.uart: use no parity by default.
<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/690aaa8ead2161b2663289b827346dd321c3b9ab
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 690aaa8 whitequark: gateware.uart: unbreak none parity.
<travis-ci> whitequark/Glasgow#45 (master - 690aaa8 : whitequark): The build was fixed.
<cr1901_modern> Relevant to our interests I think, even if it's a "joke"
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<Bike> i think i believe the theory that he super died
<Bike> which i guess counts as retirement, broadly speaking
<cr1901_modern> super died? As opposed to regular dying?
<Bike> i would describe hitting the ground after jumping out of a plane with a bad parachute super death, sure
<cr1901_modern> Oh right yes
<cr1901_modern> And I prob agree with that theory too- none of the bills he got ever reentered circulation
<cr1901_modern> And there was a sack found in the Columbia River about a decade after the hijack w/ matching serial nos
<cr1901_modern> So yea, I think he died on the way down too
<Bike> technically, he died at the end of the way down
<cr1901_modern> :P
<cr1901_modern> Still weird that no one can figure out who he is, considering he had such specialized knowledge about aircraft
<Bike> he knew stuff about piloting and some basics of parachutes, right? that doesn't seem super unusual after wwii/korea/etc
<sorear> given the whole “terminal velocity” thing jumping out of a plane isn’t *that* super
<Bike> mm, guess these 727 details are more specific
<Bike> terminal velocity of a human is still uh.... 53 m/s
<Bike> so like a very fast car crash
<whitequark> yikes
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<cr1901_modern> Bike: Yea if memory serves he knew something about the 727's "special features" (for want of a better term) that most ppl didn't know
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<sorear> super dead is when the whole plane hits the ground at mach 1+
<Bike> how about sub super dead
<cr1901_modern> Agreed
<cr1901_modern> also considering that one person who survived a 16,000 ft fall from a plane... I'm guessing terminal velocity is survivable (even if LD50 is like 99%)
<Bike> is that how ld50 works? i don't think that's how it works
<cr1901_modern> Yea, I f***ed up
<cr1901_modern> it's not at all how it works
<Bike> but yeah i know what you mean, that one flight attendant or whatever
<sorear> lethal dose of falling
<cr1901_modern> yes, the average number of falls it takes to kill someone at "n" ft
<qu1j0t3> or, the height at which 50% of population dies?
<cr1901_modern> That works too
<qu1j0t3> this is why they say tech has lost its ethical compass
<Bike> that's right. insufficient testing of plane crash survivability
<qu1j0t3> :)
<qu1j0t3> i recall quite a lot of experiments
<cr1901_modern> I shouldn't have laughed at that. But I did.
<qu1j0t3> unscheduled experiments
<sorear> that’s what the rocket sled was for no?
<Bike> the term, is natural experiment
<Bike> rocket sleds are for like, g tests, yeah?
<Bike> if anyone's researched how to fall out of a plane with no parachute without sub super dying i kinda want to see it
<qu1j0t3> i mean there have been passenger jets full of dummies flown into the ground for science
<qu1j0t3> anyway i think it's time to get Aperture Labs going
<qu1j0t3> although isn't it already going, underground
<sorear> has anyone tried like, a big pile of polymer foam blocks
<cr1901_modern> If that was a reference, I didn't get it
<Bike> a big pile of polymer foam blocks for what
<Bike> falling into?
<sorear> portal, which I still haven’t played
<sorear> Yes
<Bike> i think it's hard to aim
<sorear> You can’t steer while falling?
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<Bike> not very well, i don't think
<Bike> maybe like, improvise a wingsuit out of your coat in midair
<Bike> very reasonable
<cr1901_modern> Super Death Simulator
<sorear> now I’m thinking about how cold im going to be half naked in the stratosphere
<Bike> when i was a kid i had a Popular Science subscription and they did a big feature on one of those guys who jumped out of space
<Bike> no parachute until the very end
<Bike> pretty cold
<Bike> they were pretty concerned that they'd get into an uncontrollabe spin and centrifuge to death
<qu1j0t3> also not very oxygen
<Bike> some kind of space suit involved, i think
<qu1j0t3> yes
<qu1j0t3> pressure suit
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<azonenberg_work> cr1901_modern: idk what you're talking about
<azonenberg_work> Falling is perfectly harmless
<azonenberg_work> I can jump out of a plane and free-fall 5 miles without any ill effects
<azonenberg_work> now, when I suddenly STOP falling... that's another story :p
<cr1901_modern> azonenberg_work: It's the impulse that kills ya, or so I hear :D
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<whitequark> oh what the fuck
<whitequark> awygle: FXMAs completely break SWD, *even if* I use an external level shifter to buffer SWDIO
<whitequark> I cannot identify a reason why this happens, it must be something about the way SWD is driven
<awygle> hhhhuh that's weird
<whitequark> but I just swapped SWDIO to an OD FPGA pin and SWCLK to a buffered level shifter pin and it works
<whitequark> i've spent the last several days just staring at LA and scope traces like an idiot
<whitequark> i have absolutely zero ideas about how exactly it's broken but it is broken.
<whitequark> fucking level shifters
<awygle> yeah fuck
<rqou> hmm
<whitequark> this is the single worst IC I have ever used
<rqou> didn't some black magic probes use this level shifter?
<whitequark> possibly yes
<whitequark> but the black magic I assembled doesn't
<rqou> but it works there?
<whitequark> no idea
<whitequark> rqou: actually I doubt that
<whitequark> since SWD specifies pullups
<whitequark> I think it uses a slightly different part
<rqou> wait it does?
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> yes it does
<whitequark> read the spec
<rqou> my design doesn't have any and it works :P
<whitequark> the die has some
<whitequark> I think it does, anyway
<rqou> ah ok, i guess it works that way
<rqou> ok, some BMPs used a TXS0108 automagic shifter
<whitequark> oh yeah those
<whitequark> yeah they're less magical than FXMAs
<whitequark> [ DEBUG] glasgow.applet.swd: SWD: ack data=0bc11477
<whitequark> AAAAA FINALLY
* awygle cheers
<awygle> hm i wonder what happens if you run an LFE5UM SERDES at 1.2V instead of 1.1V
<awygle> presumably if you run an LFE5UM5G at 1.1V instead of 1.2V it just doesn't make 5 Gbps
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: :D
<azonenberg_work> Tonight i can try and work on bolting that into the jtaghal protocol stack
<azonenberg_work> Just about to leave the house and head out
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: (also, now you understand why starshipraider is using explicitly controlled manual level shifters? :P)
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: reminding you again that i went this way because i wanted revA to not have a BGA
<whitequark> and i explicitly made the tradeoff of having to fuck with the FXMA
<whitequark> i do not regret the decision
<whitequark> i decided to see how bad FXMA is, and i have determined that it is very bad
<whitequark> this is valuable
<azonenberg_work> Lol
<azonenberg_work> that is useful intel
<rqou> can't you do BGA with your weird vapor phase thing?
<whitequark> rqou: sure
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: but now, armed with this information, would you use this part again? :p
<whitequark> it's that i haven't done any sort of SMT assembly for years at that point
<whitequark> no 0603 ever
<whitequark> etc
<azonenberg_work> o_O
<whitequark> one thing at a time
<rqou> heh i never did 4 layer or BGA and went straight to a 2-bga board
<rqou> works
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: no, I would not use FXMA for almost anything again
<rqou> i had given up on automagic level shifters a while ago
<whitequark> I think there are cases where it could work but most of them are covered by simpler level shifters
<rqou> the ones i was using if you aren't careful they go into self-oscillation
<whitequark> and there are cases where FXMA would be uniquely suitable but a multitool is definitely not one of them
<whitequark> looool
<whitequark> rqou: well, you had like, actual EE training or something
<whitequark> this was my first 4-layer as well
<rqou> lol i guess
<whitequark> i wasnt comfortable doing so many steps at a time
<whitequark> i wanted to get revA in decent shape immediately and that's exactly what happened
<whitequark> i also wanted it so that people would have something they can hand-assemble
<whitequark> with a soldering iron
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: well, i guess it was a good learning exercise
<azonenberg_work> also fwiw, unless you are EXTREMELY budget constrained there is IMO no reason for a new design to be 2-layer
<awygle> huh, this part calls itself a "sub-bandgap output voltage" LDO
<azonenberg_work> 4L is much easier to route, separating power from signals
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: I've last done any sort of PCB many years ago
<whitequark> and back then 4l was expensive
<awygle> i guess that's technically true
<awygle> i've just never heard it before
<rqou> azonenberg_work: does hashtag badgelife count as "extremely budget constrained"?
<rqou> (which is interesting because the dragonfly is 6l)
<awygle> eh, i've done 2L things recently. if you don't need 4L, don't do 4L
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: i'm surprised given how much awesome tech stuff you do that you havent made more pcbs
<azonenberg_work> awygle: i mean i've done 2L things too
<rqou> i also made relatively few
<azonenberg_work> But for anything more complex than "adapter from one pinout to another" normally i find 4 much easier to route
<balrog> azonenberg_work: there are plenty of cases where 4 layer is just unnecessary :D
<azonenberg_work> certainly anything with a MCU or PLD of some sort on it
<azonenberg_work> balrog: sure, and i've done 1-layer designs
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: there's basically two issues at work
<azonenberg_work> The way i see it is, you get much better signal integrity with solid ref planes
<azonenberg_work> plus, it's a lot easier to do the design without crazy routing
<awygle> i did a 2L LNA, because it had like 5 parts total
<balrog> yeah
<rqou> azonenberg_work: 0 layer ugly deadbug ham rf design :P
<whitequark> first, I have attention issues (not exactly ADD, but similar) and waiting for a PCB tends to really fuck up my schedules and flow
<awygle> and it was on a fancy laminate so 4L was more spensive
<azonenberg_work> awygle: see, i'd have done that 4L just for the thinner prepreg (smaller traces for a given impedance)
<whitequark> second, I used to use Eagle and Eagle fucking sucks
<balrog> that said if you're mass producing, a 10% cost difference can mean a lot
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: lol
<awygle> azonenberg_work: get on the GCPW train :p
<balrog> whitequark: ahahaha
<azonenberg_work> balrog: yes for mass production it's worth cost optimizing
<whitequark> I dreaded making footprints and symbols in Eagle, it was just so horrifyingly tedious
<whitequark> and the libraries had barely anything useful
<azonenberg_work> balrog: But for a prototype if we value my time at $150/hr, oshpark 2L @ $5/in^2, oshpark 4L @ $10/in^2
<awygle> actually 50R 2L is basically impossible at normal thickness, the traces math out to like two inches wide
<whitequark> lol
<azonenberg_work> say a 2x2 inch (4in^2) board, we're talking $20 vs $40 for the PCB
<awygle> okay no, 0.1" but still. 100 mils wide.
<azonenberg_work> So if going to 4L saves me 8 minutes of layout time, i'm better off doing that
<rqou> awygle: so those calculations are actually correct? not just a "i don't understand how to use the calculator" problem?
<awygle> rqou: yep
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i have made impedance-matched adapter boards on oshpark that were 50/100 ohm Z0/Zdiff
<azonenberg_work> as 4-layer designs with 2 blank layers, a ground plane, and a signal layer
<azonenberg_work> just to get the thin prepreg :p
<rqou> heh
<rqou> i thought that used to bug out the tool?
<awygle> you can either use GCPW or make the board thinner or go 4L
<rqou> they probably fixed it
<azonenberg_work> yeah they fixed it
<awygle> i still need to find a free pcb calculator that does differential GCPW and try it out
<awygle> or find the formula in a book someplace
<rqou> so, if you have a giant stack of money burning a hole in your pocket, i dare you to make a board with mixed fr4/rogers/rigid-flex :P
<rqou> oh and with microvias too of course
<azonenberg_work> rqou: lool
<rqou> (not sure if this is even considered manufacturable)
<awygle> rqou: at my former employer we did a board that was like... 8mm thick with mixed FR4 and Rogers (4003 IIRC? one of the fiberglass ones)
<rqou> but no rigid-flex and microvias to go with it, right?
<awygle> and the board house built it _upside down_ the first time
<rqou> loool
<azonenberg_work> awygle: why do you think all of my big boards include layer numbers?
<awygle> "why isn't my patch antenna resonating like, at all?" "oh the cavity is _on the other side of the ground plane_"
<rqou> i've heard consultants claiming that happening, didn't realize it could actually happen
<rqou> azonenberg_work: my recent board has layer numbers too
<awygle> azonenberg_work: i didn't design the board lol
<awygle> i include numbers when i care
<awygle> so for most RF designs
<pie__> holy crap look at that lensing https://twitter.com/AeroDork/status/1036137029225144320
<awygle> wow, that's awesome
<rqou> awygle: 1 2 4 3 5 6 8 7 9 10 11 12 trololololo
<awygle> rqou: it was only 4L
<rqou> aw :(
<awygle> wildly asymmetric stackup
<rqou> i heard that can cause problems with via drilling?
<azonenberg_work> It can also cause problems with pcb flatness
<awygle> it causes problems with every damn thing
<azonenberg_work> different CTE etc
<rqou> oh right
<rqou> that too
<awygle> warping, bowing, vias, lamination, all kinds of shit
<awygle> expensive as hell too, cost like 15k for QTY 3 iirc?
<rqou> lool
<rqou> wait, why couldn't the board just be entirely rogers?
<rqou> that sounds like it would be simpler
<awygle> it was more expensive that way
<awygle> and less good mechnically
<rqou> huh
<awygle> 4003 is kind of soft iirc
<awygle> so only the critical layers were rogers
<awygle> again, i didn't design it
<awygle> i will say this though, once we got it built and built right that thing kicked ass as an antenna
<awygle> it had to be close to some kind of theoretical limit
<awygle> there were lots of problems with the contractors we used for that project but "does not know their RF" was very much not one of them
<rqou> it seems that DFM wasn't a strength :P
<awygle> well, there are limits to these things. we had a problem at PRI that the mechanical engineers always got their way
<awygle> but you can't just remove complexity most of the time, just move it around
<awygle> so it ended up moved to the EEs (or, less often, the SWEs)
<awygle> so the most amazing thing about that design was it actually _fit_ in the envelope we gave, _and_ met our performance specs lol
<awygle> me: "I need a deployment mechanism for this antenna" them: "your antenna has to be planar and less than 10x10x1cm"
<awygle> me: "have you seen the numbers in our analysis? do you understand EM physics at all?" them: "can't you like, make it out of fractals or something?"
<rqou> lol not metamaterials?
<awygle> me: "okay i need high-Dk laminates then" them: "ooo, budgets...."
<awygle> we talked to the Kymeta folks actually but their tech doesn't actually make things smaller so it wouldn't have helped in that case
<rqou> oh wtf someone needs to stick the "sounds like advertising" label on their wikipedia page
<rqou> > Kymeta Corporation is commercializing new, innovative, software-enabled metamaterials-based electronic beamforming antennas and terminals for satellite communications.
<awygle> their tech is actually very cool
<awygle> it's basically an LCD screen but instead of passing light they pass RF
<awygle> but yes, extreme buzzword bingo
<rqou> hmm neat
<rqou> i mean, light is just really high frequency RF :P
<awygle> oh speaking of 4L boards vs 2L, did i ever mention the time i bought a bias tee for like 250$ and it turned out to be a hand-etched, hand-soldered 1L board inside?
<rqou> looool
<rqou> shoulda just asked a ham to build you one
<awygle> yeah no kidding
<awygle> i have since done my own in 1/8th the space for 1/10th the cost
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<whitequark> azonenberg_work: ok in theory SWD works now
<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/5ec5f97b4eea6edc22d72f0cf5f2c8c10fc5f19b
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 5ec5f97 whitequark: applet.swd: fix most bugs....
<rqou> > most
<rqou> but seriously, nice
<whitequark> rqou: it still doesn't check parity
<whitequark> because i don't really know what to do if it doesn't match
<whitequark> i think i need to retry the transaction and i have most of the infra for that in place
<whitequark> but it needs testing
<rqou> i wonder what BMP does
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: as long as it works without parity errors
<azonenberg_work> that is good enough for me to start bringing up upper protocol layers
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: can you set up the port forward for me again? ready to start testing
<rqou> damn, we need a real private network
<rqou> maybe we should all join dn42 :P
<rqou> hey azonenberg_work, you're familiar with "internet-grade networking" like ospf/bgp right?
<azonenberg_work> i've done a fair amount of OSPF and enough BGP to pass the CCNP routing exam back in ~2011, although i havent done BGP since
<azonenberg_work> Would have to brush up but i remember the basics
<rqou> can you help me learn and join dn42? :P
<rqou> you should probably also join yourself to dn42
<rqou> gruetzkopf's been recommending it :P
<azonenberg_work> maybe at some point, but no rush
<azonenberg_work> (i have a lot to do...)
<rqou> makes sense
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<rvense> tmux a
<rvense> ...
<keesj> tmux ... I like it
<keesj> the Glasgow board is cypress + ice040p5k
<cr1901_modern> tmux is a terminal multipler
<cr1901_modern> that joke fell flat, nevermind
<cr1901_modern> I didn't even get to type it all out
<keesj> how fast is the adc on the glasgow board?
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<keesj> hmm the acd (if I have the correct datasheet can do up to 11 Mhz but the i2c bus only 3.4) http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/adc081c021.pdf
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<rqou> the adc is super slow
<rqou> it's not intended to be an oscope or anything like that
<rqou> iirc it's basically designed to measure a dc voltage
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<azonenberg_work> keesj, rqou: yeah it's similar to the adc on my starshipraider io cell
<azonenberg_work> basically its there to track VCCIO on the DUT
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<rqou> hmm, are there any good layer-2 vpns for linux? everyone seems to love wireguard as the new hotness for a l3 vpn
<rqou> thinking of what it would entail to run a "legacy" network that spans many sites transparently and can run hilarity like ipx or appletalk
<azonenberg_work> rqou: openfpn
<azonenberg_work> openvpn*
<rqou> everyone seems to hate that for some reason
<azonenberg_work> i think it can run in layer-3 mode too but i've only used it as a tap interface to push raw ethernet frames over
<rqou> yeah, it supports both
<rqou> i've only ever run it as l2
<florolf> rqou: GRE over wireguard? :p
<florolf> or L2TP
<rqou> why does everybody love wireguard?
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<florolf> rqou: i only have vague feelings about openvpn, but ipsec on linux is an abomination
<florolf> one downside of openvpn which might or might not be relevant for you is that everything flows through a kernel/userspace-boundary
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<florolf> wireguard is very puristic, which has some appeal
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<florolf> (i.e. there's a keypair and you're done, no crypto agility, the protocol isn't chatty, ..)
* azonenberg_work should make a VPN that is just raw 802.3 frames tunneled over SSP21
<florolf> azonenberg_work: i'm eagerly waiting for the spec (or any details beyond slideshows) to finally be released
<florolf> some aspects of that would also be interesting for work, but not enough for $EMPLOYER to get involved officially
<azonenberg_work> I have access to the spec but cant share, but if/when i have time plan to release a f/oss FPGA implementation
<azonenberg_work> i've talked to adam about it and he loves the idea
<azonenberg_work> Just been too busy with the move and construction
<rqou> wait, so it'll become like mipi specs where people can implement it but can never see the spec?
<azonenberg_work> rqou: no, they do plan to release the spec
<azonenberg_work> i'd hold off on publishing my implementation until they were ready to publish
<rqou> ah, so they actually do intend for many people to use it
<rqou> unlike e.g. i3c
<azonenberg_work> they have a spec and reference implementation ready to go, i think the holdup is review or something
<keesj> well.. for me I can't get openvpn to really work . never tried wireguard and oftern resolve to ssh SOCKs proxying but a few month ago I started looking into tinc and that looked promissing to me (I was able to understand it) https://www.tinc-vpn.org/
<azonenberg_work> They dont want people to start implementing a half-baked version of the protocol
<azonenberg_work> so right now access is limited to early adopter security pros who are willing to be somewhat involved in the dev process,
<rqou> don't worry, people (such as you :P ) will do that anyways
<rqou> > implementing a half-baked version of the protocol
<azonenberg_work> what i mean is, they dont want a zillion incompatible products floating around
<rqou> people will do _that_ anyways as well :P
<azonenberg_work> the vision is for my code to become the official RTL reference implementation
<rqou> see for example whitequark and USB :P
<azonenberg_work> usb is a nightmare, i am really happy with how this protocol looks in terms of simplicity and cleanlineness
<azonenberg_work> it does one thing and does it well
<rqou> you can never protect against "did it wrong" or "just didn't read"
<azonenberg_work> No, but the design is intended to be as footgun resistant as reasonably possible
<rqou> that's... impressive
<azonenberg_work> by doing things like using authenticated encryption only, libsodium for all the crypto itself
<rqou> ah, so the opposite of openvpn :P
<azonenberg_work> The default mode actually is authenticated but unencrypted
<azonenberg_work> because for SCADA its often beneficial for monitoring systems to be able to sniff traffic, while still having integrity guarantees
<azonenberg_work> confidentiality is often not required other than the public key handshake to set up the session
<azonenberg_work> They will support AES-GCM on packet data as well, though
<rqou> so totally not openvpn which supports all of PSK, full X.509 PKI, or simple asymmetric crypto all combined with any cipher you want (not necessarily aead of course) combined with any compression you want (no idea if it's vulnerable to something CRIME-like)
<rqou> and yes, afaik "none" is a valid setting for everything too
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<azonenberg_work> rqou: they also, by design, do not use asn.1 or x.509 anywhere
<rqou> heh
<azonenberg_work> no certificates
<azonenberg_work> Just raw key pairs, i think they may support one level of signing on the key from a hardcoded root? i forget
<rqou> openvpn is pretty hilarious because it supports a full PKI infrastructure
<azonenberg_work> But it's very much targeting embedded systems and other environments where somebody is provisioning devices to run the protocol, not the TLS "two parties who never met need to talk" scenario
<rqou> if you accidentally trust a verisign CA then ~anybody can connect to your vpn
<azonenberg_work> i actually use that, my openvpn in the past trusted a single hardcoded rsa4096 root
<rqou> yeah, i used that too
<azonenberg_work> and i issued client certs to all of my machines as needed
<rqou> but you're supposed to use a custom local ca, not a global web ca
<azonenberg_work> well duh
<rqou> not obvious to everybody :P
<rqou> they had to call that out specifically in the docs
<rqou> meanwhile the PSK mode ignores half the lines in the key file :P
<rqou> the dumbest PSK mode at least
<rqou> hmm wireguard seems a bit too djb-coolaid; i'd like to see aes-gcm as an option for devices that have hardware acceleration
<azonenberg_work> yeah i pretty much only use suite b crypto for my stuff
<azonenberg_work> or curve25519 which seems to be pretty widespread
<azonenberg_work> But for symmetric aes-gcm only
<rqou> i'd much rather have x25519 for asymmetric due to significantly fewer footguns
<rqou> but yeah, i'd personally prefer x25519 + option of aes-gcm or chacha20-poly1305
<azonenberg_work> yeah basically x25519 / aes-gcm is what i recommend for new crypto deployments of any kind
<rqou> don't trust chacha20?
<azonenberg_work> Not as much as AES, it's probably the most thoroughly studied symmetric cipher around by this point
<azonenberg_work> ever
<rqou> heh that's probably true
<azonenberg_work> p256 from a solid crypto library is OK-ish but it's easy to screw up
<azonenberg_work> 25519 is harder to get wrong
<azonenberg_work> aes vs chacha i dont really see a benefit to going with the odd algorithm
<rqou> hmm now that i think about it i don't recall what djb's motivation was for inventing chacha20
<azonenberg_work> correctly implemented as just works
<azonenberg_work> aes*
<azonenberg_work> the only ways you can really screw up are key management or block modes, and those will bite you with any cipher
<rqou> well, chacha20 is a stream cipher :P
<azonenberg_work> Ok fine, but GCM is also pretty solid by this point i think
<azonenberg_work> (I don't recommend use of anything but authenticated encryption these days, no point)
<rqou> but if you use aes-ctr then nintendo can fuck it up in entertaining ways :P
<rqou> -ctr mode is actually scarily easy to mess up
<azonenberg_work> well aes-ctr is basically a stream cipher
<rqou> it is a stream cipher
<azonenberg_work> ctr mode is just a black box that turns a block cipher into a stream cipher
<rqou> but it's not authenticated
<azonenberg_work> so you have two fundamental weaknesses with any stream cipher
<azonenberg_work> first, malleability if not authenticated
<azonenberg_work> second, if you ever reuse an IV you can recover the xor of the two plaintexts
<azonenberg_work> And if you know/guess one you can thus decrypt the other
<azonenberg_work> So if you only use authenticated modes, and ensure IVs are generated randomly and never reused, you're golden
<rqou> but then you might as well use a footgun-resistant aead mode
<rqou> anyways, overall wireguard's choices do seem a bit strange
<rqou> inb4 "it turns out the nsa had planted a mindvirus in djb's brain decades ago" :P :P :P
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<whitequark> azonenberg_work: poke
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: ah setting up now
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: done
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: how do you manage to always tell me something exactly when i've just gone to sleep?!
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<shapr> silly question, has anyone implemented an FPGA in verilog?
<shapr> yes, I realize that would be a waste of more than 50% of the FPGA running the meta-FPGA, just curious if that's a thing
<pie__> 50% is probably an understatement
<awygle> shapr: azonenberg_work implemented a cpld
<awygle> presumably the fpga companies do design in _something_, which might be verilog, but it's not open source of course
<tnt> it could very well be verilog ... but just because it's verilog doesn't mean it's meant to be run on a fpga, they could possibly just do simulations.
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<awygle> right. that wasn't strictly speaking the question, although it was implied
* awygle turns the "pedantic" dial down another tick
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<awygle> the cranes outside my window are _much_ too tall for the size of the lot they're working on and it is visibly giving the construction team problems
<azonenberg_work> awygle: lol oh?
<awygle> yeah it's a small little lot and the crane is _much_ higher up than my building's roof. they're trying to place this metal cage thing precisely but don't seem to have enough control at this steep of an angle
<awygle> the cat is enjoying the show though
<azonenberg_work> Lol
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<sorear> chacha is faster than aes on skx :P
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<rqou> whitequark: https://twitter.com/nbcwashington/status/1038936380704010240?s=19 <-- when do we get a hashtag ratcognition?
<mithro> daveshah: ping?
<awygle> #ratcognition is probably better studied than #humancognition
<Bike> people get all mad when you selectively destroy parts of their brains
<awygle> rats probably do too tbh
<Bike> not if you destroy the right parts.
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<whitequark> lol Bike
<whitequark> didn't we selectively destroy parts of human brain for a good while
<Bike> sure, still do
<Bike> mostly cos of cancer
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: poke?
<Bike> other psychosurgery like lobotomization has rather gone out of vogue
<Bike> i guess 'lobotomy', overcorrected
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: ack
<awygle> i feel like poke/ack is a mixed metaphor somehow
<awygle> but all other responses to poke are... worse.
<azonenberg_work> lol
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: ready to do something today?
* azonenberg_work had several friends at RPI who would say hi by SYN'ing
<whitequark> I tried to shift my schedule further into PDT
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: Yes, give me another hour or so to finish the protobuf refactoring?
<whitequark> i just woke up so that works
<whitequark> sweet
<azonenberg_work> Right now i have everything but ShiftData() working with the new protobuf api
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: so what should I do if I get a NAK in the SWD impl?
<whitequark> or worse, if parity check fails?
<azonenberg_work> I havent implemented that yet but my recollection from the SWD spec is you should be able to repeat the operation
<azonenberg_work> But i need to look at the details to see what layer i want to repeat it at
<azonenberg_work> most likely it should be repeated up to N times within the SWD driver and after N consecutive failures throw an exception and declare the transaction to have failed un-recoverably
<azonenberg_work> At which point the host will probably just abort and say "hardware failure" :p
<shapr> awygle: I appreciate the pedanticism :-)
<shapr> m_w: four beaglewires booted and working in today's class, yay!
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<m_w> shapr, what are you building in the FPGA for the class?
<shapr> 1. blink LEDs 2. seven segment counter 3. audio synth 4. pong with vga+rotary encoders
<shapr> m_w: I would like to find some C code that uses the arm_blink_leds verilog example
<shapr> that's my only reequest at the moment
<shapr> m_w: have you heard of anyone building fpga getting started lessons with the BeagleWire?
<shapr> I'd love to steal the work of others :-P
<shapr> anyway, thanks for building this board!
<m_w> shapr, I have not heard of another course yet
<shapr> in that case, I should put my notes on github
<m_w> perhaps there are some using the icoboard
<shapr> yeah, I'm trying to re-use some of the hackaday lessons that showed up last month
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<m_w> shapr, the quick and dirty way to access them is using the /dev/mem interface
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<shapr> I am so far too much of a newbie to get that working, but I'll try it again this week.
<m_w> if you want to access the LEDs using the Linux API, that is another story altogether
<shapr> I'm fine using /dev/mem from C, I just haven't gotten it figured out yet.
<m_w> well if you need help you can email or ping pmezydlo :)
<shapr> is pmezydlo on irc?
<m_w> occasionally
<shapr> fair enough
<shapr> any word on a beaglewire discussion forum?
* shapr thinks about getting on usenet again
<m_w> I looked into hosting one on my website
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<m_w> shapr, installing phpBB
<shapr> w00
<m_w> need to setup a secure website
<shapr> m_w: this is popular with my devops friends: https://letsencrypt.org/
<m_w> yeah I might have to look into that
<prpplague> m_w: what's cookin bossman?
<prpplague> m_w: you get moved?
<m_w> prpplague, howdy
<m_w> yup held up in Sparks now
<prpplague> m_w: dandy
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<prpplague> m_w: i saw the post about the sifi boards
<prpplague> nice stuff
<prpplague> m_w: you keeping your distance from the L&P?
<m_w> they ran out at crowdsupply and I asked Groupgets to post a few
<m_w> someone emailed me looking for chips
<m_w> I am too busy for L&P projects right now
<m_w> remember that 3 FPGA board, it is still haunting me
<awygle> what is L&P in this context?
<shapr> I'm also curious
<prpplague> awygle: a derogatory reference to "Love and Passion"
<shapr> I'm still lost
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<prpplague> shapr: many people in the tech community will ask you to do extensive work for them without being paid because they think you should be doing it for the "love and passion" of technology
<m_w> like beaglewire :)
<awygle> oh is that what happened there? that's a bummer :(
<shapr> ohhh
<prpplague> awygle: it frequently happens, and m_w has gotten burned a number of times over the last couple of years
<shapr> I'm sorry to hear that :-(
<prpplague> (i won't even start about the many times L&P has burned me)
<shapr> yeah, I've had people try that on me
<awygle> prpplague: i'm aware of its ubiquity, just didn't know it applied to beaglewire
<shapr> m_w: jack up the price of beaglewire?
<shapr> My coworkers are expensing it for our education budget
<m_w> shapr, no
<shapr> ok
<m_w> the only remaining units belong to crowdsupply
<shapr> well, I'll do what I can to advertise that you've designed and shipped awesome things.
<m_w> I have gotten a contract because of it so it is not total loss
<shapr> awesome :-)
<shapr> so once these units are sold, no more will be produced?
<m_w> not necessarily
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<m_w> depends on the demand
<shapr> good to know
<m_w> they haven't been selling like hotcakes lately
<shapr> w00
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<prpplague> m_w: just filled out a travel request
<m_w> prpplague, where you going?
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<prpplague> m_w: added this in the comment section - https://photos.app.goo.gl/NFiaQcErgfgFTB6Z7
<m_w> besides hell if you don't change your ways
<prpplague> m_w: main office in bay area
* shapr posts to the forum
<shapr> m_w: thanks!
<prpplague> m_w: "Since you have chosen to elect a man with a timber toe to succeed me, you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas." Davey Crockett
<m_w> prpplague, so you will be in the bay area soon?
<prpplague> m_w: next week probably
<m_w> I am going to a RISC-V meetup this week
<shapr> oh wow
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<m_w> I can drive down from the mountain :)
<prpplague> m_w: there in the bay area?
<prpplague> <m_w> I am going to a RISC-V meetup this week
* prpplague looks
<prpplague> oh bummer
<prpplague> on the 12th
<m_w> it is sold out anyways
<prpplague> i probably won't in the bay area until the 17th
<m_w> cool
<m_w> oh I take the L&P comment back a bit
<shapr> ?
<m_w> I have been helping with the open hardware summit badge
<shapr> artists do free work for the exposure
* shapr cries
* shapr posts AGAIN
<m_w> I hope that this forum doesn't get overrun by spam bots
<shapr> I also hope that
<m_w> shapr, I will ask pmezydlo to join the forum
<shapr> hurrah!
<shapr> I can help moderate if you want
<shapr> I did request the forum, it's only fair I help out :-)
<prpplague> m_w: i prefer cornbeefbots instead of spambots
<m_w> I put a wiki on my site once and it got overrun with spam because I didn't lock it down
<shapr> :-(
<prpplague> m_w: yea, wiki's are always a big target
<prpplague> m_w: we had a lot of problems getting elinux.org under control
<m_w> then I uninstalled and did it right the second time and I didn't get any real users
<shapr> that's always the trade-off
<m_w> so I just use elinux and github now
<shapr> does github have forum-anything other than discussion on issues and PRs?
<prpplague> m_w: did you see i got some coverage on my 4-bit CPU?
* prpplague doesn't remember when it he last sync'd up with m_w
<m_w> prpplague, on hackaday?
<m_w> I see that you are back on hackaday.io poking around
<prpplague> m_w: more just using it as a "project" log
<prpplague> m_w: don't really expect much out of it
<m_w> I saw the hackaday post but not the hackster one
<prpplague> m_w: it's really weird, i get very little interaction on my project pages
<prpplague> m_w: i did these up a couple years ago - https://hackaday.io/project/25597-daves-breadboard-led-trinket-blt
<prpplague> m_w: then last week this pop's up on hackaday https://hackaday.com/2018/09/08/see-binary-on-your-breadboard/
<prpplague> m_w: and everyone is just falling over themselves about ti
<prpplague> m_w: hilarious
<prpplague> m_w: one person told me "yea but he labeled the leds in bit order, you didnt"
<prpplague> had to have a really good laugh
<m_w> ha
<m_w> silly that this is news worthy
<prpplague> m_w: yea i don't get a lot of the stuff that gets attention on hackaday
<prpplague> m_w: lots of the posts brag about being "built from scrap"
<prpplague> m_w: being built from scrap means it has zero educational value as no one can replicate it
<m_w> prpplague, pocketbone and lofive got some pretty hefty views
<awygle> i feel like a lot of the typical hobbyist EE spaces suffer from a lack of clarity about their audience
<awygle> like i don't know who hackaday is _for_
<rqou> whitequark: what was the server change management tool that you use?
<m_w> shitposting
<awygle> m_w: that's what, not who :p
<prpplague> awygle: it's mostly just for people who tinker on the weekend and have side projects
<prpplague> awygle: it really isn't something for the "pro-maker" or professional
<prpplague> awygle: they occasionally have some good research and writting, but in general it's just to promote hackaday.io and tindie
<whitequark> rqou: ansible
<whitequark> it's a piece of shit
<whitequark> but slightly less than the others
<awygle> prpplague: do you know of any forums or w/e that _do_ cater to the "pro-maker" or professional EE segments?
<rqou> lol
<rqou> why are all change management tools bad in a different way?
<prpplague> awygle: actually, no, virtually all of them have kind of gone silent as they don't care to let in the "makers"
<awygle> prpplague: yeah me either :/ bummer
<awygle> i would like some professional camaraderie
<rqou> e.g. at $WORK my coworkers got tired of fighting our in-house tool and just wrote a cronjob that runs one minute after the change management agent and undoes what it did :P
<awygle> too many vowels in that word
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: ^
<rqou> lol
<whitequark> rqou: because unix is a piece of shit
<whitequark> the entire ecosystem
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: yeah i know that paper
<whitequark> it got an ignobel
<rqou> but unix allows you to write cronjobs to fight the other cronjob :P
<whitequark> in many ways the registry is a better idea than /etc
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: lol oh i didnt know that
<whitequark> in many wais the registry is really bad too
<whitequark> like how it is not journalled
<sorear> it’s 2018 and apparently transactions are still hard
<rqou> but linux has various "registry-like" things, it's just that there's more than one :P
<whitequark> yes, this is the problem with unix exactly
<whitequark> every configuration management system has a zillion ways to do the same thing
<whitequark> there isn't even a standard way to manage daemons
<rqou> poettering-ware? :P
<whitequark> not unix
<whitequark> it's linux-only
<rqou> meh, only cr1901_modern still cares about BSDs :P
<azonenberg_work> honestly i'd probably run bsd instead of linux if i could run vivado on it
<azonenberg_work> i dont think most/any of my other tools care
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: doesnt freebsd have a linux syscall layer
<awygle> the registry and how windows installs applications are both better conceptually than the unix equivalents
<awygle> cmv
<awygle> whitequark: yes, it does
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: yes but vivado barely works on linux if it's not their officially supported flavor anyway
<azonenberg_work> (RHEL or one version of ubuntu iirc)
<emeb> works fine on Fedora too
<azonenberg_work> any time i try using VPI with it, it segfaults so bad it takes out the entire vivado gui
<azonenberg_work> (not just the simulation binary)
<whitequark> ah ok
<awygle> azonenberg_work: I bet vivado runs under docker running in lx branded zones on illumos :-P
<rqou> awygle: complaint: something about the way the Windows ecosystem works had encouraged everybody to roll their own installers
<whitequark> awygle: but worse than nix
<azonenberg_work> rqou: MSI was too little, too lkate
<azonenberg_work> by the time it existed everyone was used to paying $$$$ for fancy installer packages
<awygle> rqou: counterexample - dpkg, rpm, apt, yum, pacman, emerge
<azonenberg_work> rqou: and users got used to fancy wizards
<awygle> Is "one installer per application" really worse than "many installers per application but fewer total installers"?
<azonenberg_work> So now everyone has to provide one or nobody knows how to do it
<awygle> Unix just outsources the installer work to distro maintainers
<awygle> whitequark: agreed
<rqou> awygle: yes it is, because each one manages to get slightly different bugs
<whitequark> the macOS application installation paradigm is pretty great
<whitequark> but it doesn't work if you can't use the GUI framework from the system
<whitequark> and you can't on Linux
<rqou> leading to the development of "solutions" like CCleaner
<awygle> someday I'll use a Mac just so I can have conversations like this one lol
<awygle> rqou: eh agree to disagree I guess
<rqou> whitequark: hence why i prefer "just statically link absolutely everything and install under /opt"
<awygle> they suck for different people is all
<whitequark> rqou: yeah no
<whitequark> that's what the "linux .app container" people recommend too
<whitequark> and it breaks awfully because gui frameworks dynamically link shit like theming libraries
<whitequark> leading to completely unusable applications like skype on linux
<whitequark> fuck that
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: it also leads to massive binaries
<whitequark> i categorically refuse using statically linked shit.
<whitequark> that too
<whitequark> even go dynamically links things
<azonenberg_work> something like logtools is the biggest lib i'd statically link and that's just because it is literally trivial
<awygle> insert complaints about rust ABI here
<whitequark> yeah, rust doesn't have this solved yet
<whitequark> i've heard that stable mir *might* happen
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<awygle> every rust library should have a C API
<awygle> cmv
<rqou> awygle: RPC instead
<whitequark> awygle: literally impossible
<whitequark> smoltcp fundamentally relies on rust generics
<whitequark> it can't have an application-independent C API
<rqou> whitequark: wait, themes in linux contain executable code?!
<whitequark> rqou: in all OSes
<whitequark> rqou: there's a "theme engine" and "theme"
<whitequark> "theme" is usually images and CSS
<rqou> and _this_ is why "ISV" software looks all borked?
<whitequark> but "theme engine" that interprets the theme is a .so
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> because there's no theming ABI
<awygle> whitequark: yeah this one is more a dream than anything that could be a reality
<whitequark> well, with gtk, gtk is a fuckup
<whitequark> I think they fixed this in versions that no one will be able to use for two years
<whitequark> that's at least something
<awygle> why aren't themes just data?
<awygle> that would be my expectation
<whitequark> awygle: themes are data
<whitequark> theme engines aren't
<awygle> okay but why aren't theme engines just like... _in_ the gui library
<whitequark> some are
<awygle> i guess there are multiple of them? what value does that bring?
<whitequark> but
<whitequark> keep in mind that if you use a theme for a theme engine that the ISV didn't build
<whitequark> everything also breaks
<whitequark> (e.g. because ISV's GUI library is too old)
<whitequark> what value? different people want different theme engines
<whitequark> for example, you need a separate one for hidpi, or at least you used to
<awygle> i think i don't understand what a theme engine does then
<awygle> oof. that's... sigh.
<whitequark> theme engine interprets theme data
<whitequark> all really good themes come with their engines anyway
<whitequark> like adwaita
<whitequark> it has the same look in gtk and qt
<rqou> starting to think that all GUIs should just manually control every pixel of their rendering
<rqou> or punt to a browser
<whitequark> yeah fuck that
<whitequark> the former option destroys accessibility
<whitequark> the second option is just shit
<whitequark> signal desktop is an insecure piece of shit because it's in a browser
<awygle> i have now taken in too many facts that sound idiotic, i am gonna back away from this conversation and chew on them for a while
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<rqou> can't you manually invoke the relevant accessibility API in the first case?
<rqou> or is that also incompatible with static linking?
<whitequark> rqou: no one does that
<whitequark> if you don't use a GUI lib you don't have an accessibility API anyway
<rqou> why not?
<whitequark> since this is something gtk and qt implement
<rqou> what
<rqou> so does that mean you need a different accessibility tool for each toolkit?
<rqou> can you directly poke "AT-SPI via DBus"?
<sorear> I thought gtk got rid of all 3rd party theme engines
<whitequark> rqou: it uses COM
<whitequark> it's a clone of MS's accessibility API
<rqou> what
<rqou> wait, com has some magic IPC marshalling thing, doesn't it?
<whitequark> not exactly
<whitequark> I mean, you can just implement IAccessible2 directly
<whitequark> but *no one fucking does*
<whitequark> because no one except GUI library devs gives a fuck about accessibility
<whitequark> hell, most bespoke SDL-based piece of shit GUIs don't even let me enter russian
<rqou> what if you're statically linking?
<whitequark> or use IMEs
<whitequark> you can't use it then I think
<rqou> what
<rqou> doesn't it need a low-level IPC interface _somewhere_?
<rqou> since the screen reader or whatever isn't in the same process
<whitequark> yes, but that's an implementation detail
<whitequark> the interface is at shared object boundary
<rqou> why are all the higher-level gui interfaces so hostile to static linking? the original protocols were network-transparent/network-capable
<whitequark> gnome used to use CORBA.
<whitequark> really, fuck static linking.
<whitequark> marginal convenience for incompetent packagers isn't worth crippling your system.
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: poke
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: ?
<rqou> I've always wanted "'ISVs' do static linking; distros take it, fuck it all up, and make it dynamic again"
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: any luck with jtaghal?
<rqou> which is basically "give me all the convenience while avoiding all the difficulty" :P
<whitequark> you said a hour two hours ago :)
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: yeah it's making progress but i have one or two more APIs to finish :)
<azonenberg_work> sorry, got pulled away to do something else for a bit
<prpplague> was it something "completely different" ?
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: lunch and checking the mail, so yeah :p
<rqou> wtf why is my EL hack so popular?
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: hehe, obscure reference to monty python
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: https://youtu.be/u0WOIwlXE9g?t=2m26s
<azonenberg_work> rqou: everything to do with EL is
<awygle> because EL is cool
<azonenberg_work> rqou: where did you post it? hackaday?
<rqou> just birbsite
<sorear> EL is painfully loud and I wish there were less of it
<rqou> coat the inductor in epoxy?
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal] azonenberg pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/fAVAy
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal/master 68b7522 Andrew Zonenberg: Removed unnecessary #include
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal/master 43e4b0a Andrew Zonenberg: Finished initial minimalistic version of protobuf API. Works, but lacks some rarely used features.
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-apps] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAVAS
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-apps/master c8edd3d Andrew Zonenberg: Implemented bare-minimum protobuf network API
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-cmake] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAVAQ
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-cmake/master 71adc56 Andrew Zonenberg: jtaghal is now using protobuf API for NetworkedJtagInterface. Note that PipeJtagInterface is still using the old API constants.
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: ok, that's the refactoring mostly-kinda-sorta done
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: excellent
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: tunnel up
<azonenberg_work> OK, i'm still a few mins from testing as i have to write some bridge code still
<cyrozap> rqou: Static linking is great until there's a libcurl/mbedtls vulnerability in your ISV's S and you have no way to fix it without recompiling (if you have the source and the time to kill) or waiting for an update (if you don't).
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: that was just the "start doing protobuf stuff" refactoring
<azonenberg_work> next is to add protobuf APIs for SWD which should be simple as there's only two of them :p
<azonenberg_work> Plus add some code to jtagd to create SWDInterface's etc
<felix_> whitequark: i'm pretty sure that the dell thunderbolt adapter is what's described in the datasheet of the cypress pd controller (see page 13) http://www.cypress.com/file/318056/download ii found the 22R resistor and i'll solder a wire to it
<qu1j0t3> cyrozap: but what's the payoff exactly
* felix_ currently procrastinates working on the slides of his talk on wednesday... /o\
<cyrozap> qu1j0t3: What's the payoff of patching vulnerabilities in your system?
<cyrozap> i can't speak for anyone else
<cyrozap> But I like to not get pwned
<cyrozap> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<awygle> i have this sudden vision of security people just getting more and more horrified over time as they learn how little everyone else cares
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<shapr> I've seen a bunch of blog posts about exactly that
<shapr> awygle: one guy wrote about how he felt sad that his job was CYA instead of fixing problems
<awygle> shapr: aw, now it's not funny anymore :/
<awygle> yeah i bet it would be difficult to be in that position
<shapr> I worry about the morale of the NSA people who use their brains and education to fire up metasploit, and then realize that's almost more work than you actually need to compromise a computer.
<awygle> yeah this is the thing that i have a hard time reconciling
<awygle> at the same time i get told several contradictory things
<awygle> 1) i should care about exploits like spectre and meltdown
<awygle> 2) everything is exploitable at every level, especially anything written in C
<awygle> 3) you don't even need an exploit because nobody salts password hashes and HR will just email you social security numbers if you ask nicely
<awygle> so at that point i'm like, "why bother?"
<shapr> Someone asked me how to keep their data safe, I said don't put it on a computer.
<Bike> that's just going to convince them to break out the sticky notes
<shapr> convince me that's less secure :-P
<awygle> ssh root@sticky.note
<Bike> eh, it puts it on the level of the HR situation.
<Bike> I think secure computers should take a cue from biology and get too complicated to break
<Bike> that will also make them too complicated to use, but that's just a price to pay
<qu1j0t3> cyrozap: I mean, what's the payoff for STATIC linking.
<qu1j0t3> cyrozap: I know the payoff for dynamic, as you described.
<awygle> oh i forgot 4) 3 will never change because no one anywhere is ever held accountable for anything
<felix_> whitequark: on the scope i mostly see 50hz humming. maybe the wire fell off
<felix_> yep, the wire fell off. *sigh*
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<felix_> aand the tiny resistor is gone... but 22R is just a bad wire, so i just connect the wire to both pads. should be good enough
<felix_> ha, i get a signal on the scope now
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: ping
<azonenberg_work> There's no code in jtaghal-cmake/CMakeLists.txt to detect libusb
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<felix_> the logic analyzer only gets the signal when no device is connected; after connecting the signal doesn't look good any more. probably a problem with the voltage levels
<cyrozap> qu1j0t3: Static linking makes it easier to package and distribute software because the developer doesn't have to care about the libraries their users have on their systems, and users can just download and run a single binary.
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<felix_> whitequark: i don't have time today to build some comparator to get a signal my logic analyzer can use; i'll be back in my office on 20th september and i can try that then
<qu1j0t3> cyrozap: Ah, one of those the-convenience-won't-be-worth-the-crater dealies. :)
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal] azonenberg pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/fAwUw
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal/master bd10056 Andrew Zonenberg: Moved Commit() from JtagInterface to TestInterface class
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal/master 309504a Andrew Zonenberg: Implemented clientside performance counters for NetworkedJtagInterface
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-apps] azonenberg pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/fAwU5
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-apps/master f621376 Andrew Zonenberg: jtagd now has support for creating Glasgow SWD interfaces, and correctly checks if the transport is JTAG before executing JTAG commands. No actual SWD-specific commands supported yet.
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-apps/master 07a3c89 Andrew Zonenberg: Implemented server-side performance counters for protobuf NetworkedJtagInterface
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-cmake] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAwUd
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-cmake/master 68cc983 Andrew Zonenberg: Updated to latest submodules
<awygle> oh cool, clang 7 has FMV
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: so jtagd can now create a glasgowswdinterface
<azonenberg_work> but it doesnt do anything with it yet, and the code doesn't actually execute because you never set HAVE_LIBUSB
<prpplague> ho ho hum
<prpplague> any of you gurus want to save me some research time and suggest a FPGA that has serdes for PCIe and is a good candidate for running experimental risc-v cores?
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: how big? how many lanes?
<azonenberg_work> any vendor preference?
<azonenberg_work> how many pcie cores? :p
<azonenberg_work> and do you want a devkit or a bare chip for a custom board?
<azonenberg_work> sorry i meant how many pcie lanes, and riscv cores
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<prpplague> azonenberg_work: single lane would be a good start, no preference on vendor, single riscv core for starters
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: just needs to be a proof of concept
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: so minimal requirements
<awygle> prpplague: ECP5
<azonenberg_work> any ecp5 or artix7 would be a good choice as long as it's in a package with serdes (some of the lower pin count xilinx parts don't bond them out)
<prpplague> thanks
* prpplague owes azonenberg_work and awygle a cheeseburger and a beer
* awygle could really go for a cheeseburger right about now
<prpplague> awygle: there is a place in portland called "Killer Burgers"
<prpplague> they do an "off menu" burger known as the Elvis burger
<awygle> does it have peanut butter and bananas?
<prpplague> 1/3 lb patty, with peanut butter, bananas and dill pickle
* azonenberg_work hates the taste of beer but wouldnt mind a burger if we ever run into each other in meatspace
<awygle> lol that mostly sounds terrible tbh
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: There was this awesome (sadly, now out of business) place downtown a block from me when i lived in upstate NY
<azonenberg_work> called The Brown Bag
<azonenberg_work> They opened around 1800 and closed around sunrise
<prpplague> awygle: i thought it sounded terrible as well, but i rank it as the best burger i've ever had
<awygle> there are like four good burger places in walking distance of my apartment
<azonenberg_work> All of their stuff was fresh cooked right in front of you, so not fast food
<awygle> Tipsy Cow, Lunchbox Labs, Feed Co, and that place in the mall, in descending order of quality
<azonenberg_work> Never frozen, came from a butcher shop across town and a farm a few minutes away
<azonenberg_work> Buns were baked by a bakery the next town over that morning
<azonenberg_work> This place had a signature dish called a South Troy Burger... beef patty, bacon, and peanut butter
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: remind me what area of the world you are in again?
<azonenberg_work> served on a glazed donut instead of a normal burger bun
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: Seattle area, i work in the city (when i'm not remote, at least) and live west across the water
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: yea killer burger has one with bacon and peanutbutter as well
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: but is it on a donut?
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: ahh, for some reason i had it in my mind that you were in denver
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: naw
<azonenberg_work> They had another one, the Lansingburger (named after a nearby town) that also had bacon
* prpplague spent 3 months in seattle once
<azonenberg_work> but instead of a bun or donut, it was served between pancakes
<azonenberg_work> with a side of maple syrup
<awygle> i will go to killer burger next time i'm in portland
<awygle> which will be in october
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: do they still make jokes about people from Renton?
<prpplague> awygle: ahh dandy
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: i dont recall having heard one, but i also am not really into the "seattle culture"
<prpplague> awygle: would you like to know where the best nudie bars are as well?
<awygle> prpplague: lol i'll pass thanks
<azonenberg_work> i'm on the west shore almost in the mountains :p
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: ahh
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<prpplague> wow i just realized that it was 18 years ago that the last time i was in seattle
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: lol
<azonenberg_work> 2000?
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: yea
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: i was there upgrading the POS systems and servers for Dune Lumber
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: we were working in the stores after they closed
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: we were at the store up on aurora iirc, and the asshat i was working with decided to turn on the PA system
<azonenberg_work> Lol
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: kept saying on the PA "can i get a price check on the swedish penis pump?" "shit cleanup on isle 5"
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: then we hear a knock at the main door, it was the police
<azonenberg_work> lool
<azonenberg_work> some neighbor called it in?
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: turns out the PA was on for the lumber area, and at 2am this stuff was being broadcast across the neighborhood
<azonenberg_work> loool
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: police said they could her it 10 blocks away
<prpplague> hehe
<prpplague> hilarious stuff
<prpplague> hehe
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: you haven't lived unless you have a lot to regret and a lot of stories to tell
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: lol, oh i have had quite a few fun things happen to me :p
<awygle> yes, that's exactly what i'd recommend. unless you want PCIe 2.0 in which case get the 5G version
<prpplague> awygle: thanks
<awygle> prpplague: yup
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: When i lived in upstate NY i had some interesting situations involving living on a block right between the ghetto and upscale gentrified downtown
<azonenberg_work> I was mistaken for a drug dealer twice, on separate occasions
<azonenberg_work> for a drug cook once
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<azonenberg_work> For a vigilante once
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: hehe
<azonenberg_work> Almost mistaken for a drug buyer too but nobody saw the very sketchy looking transaction :p
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<azonenberg_work> Oh, and then there was the time that I was in a car with some classmates smuggling a US citizen in the trunk past the border patrol without leaving the country
<azonenberg_work> (Long story but the statute of limitations has expired by this point... And to the best of my knowledge the only law broken was sealtbelt regs)
<azonenberg_work> So, this was back when i was going to school in upstate NY near Albany
<azonenberg_work> I was in the outing club and went with a bunch of club members for a hike in the Adirondacks near Lake Placid during the winter
<azonenberg_work> Somebody screwed up the logistics and we ended up one seat short in the car... Being dumb college students, one guy volunteered to sit in the trunk (it was like an SUV so plenty of room, and lots of backpacks full of warm clothing to pad you in case of a sudden stop)
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<azonenberg_work> The hike was uneventful but on the way home we saw flashing lights on I-87 south, on a long straightaway with no way to take an exit and avoid it
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: pong
<azonenberg_work> It was a routine border patrol checkpoint looking for (we think) drugs coming south from Canada
<whitequark> I haven't pushed that code
<whitequark> I think
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: go push it? :p
<azonenberg_work> Anyway, the guy in the trunk hides under our extra jackets and tries to stand still
<prpplague> ahh
<azonenberg_work> We get to the checkpoint and the officer asks us where we're coming frm, we told him a hike
<azonenberg_work> where we're going, we said back to school
<azonenberg_work> Asked if we were all US citizens, we said yes
<azonenberg_work> The dog didn't smell any drugs so he waved us on
<azonenberg_work> At no point did we lie, all six of us (five in seats and one in the trunk) were indeed US citizens...
<prpplague> hehe
<whitequark> lol so I escalated this adapter not working to the right Dell people
<whitequark> apparently they are going to take a look at the missing altmode bits
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<whitequark> but it won't be quick
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: i brought a large server back from nassau, new providence, bahamas, once
<whitequark> (unsurprisingly, I'm sure they have a ton of work)
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: in a big ass pelican case
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: unknown to me the guy i was working with had put two boxes of cuban cigars inside the server
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: fortunately i made all the way back to the office with no issues
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: man was i pissed at him though
<azonenberg_work> lol
<azonenberg_work> another fun incident also involved the outing club
<azonenberg_work> We were going on a trip up to Maine, I think probably Acadia NP
<azonenberg_work> In order to get a day of hiking in after the ~6 hour drive, we decided to leave at like 4 AM
<sorear> > new providence
<azonenberg_work> and meet at the gym around 3:30
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: done
<prpplague> sorear: ?
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-cmake] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAwtv
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-cmake/master 3e6d7e0 whitequark: Add libusb detection code.
<azonenberg_work> So i cached my backpack and most of my stuff in my office on campus during the day, then left my apartment at 3 AM with a small bag containing just my toothbrush and a book to read in the car
<sorear> oh, not named after old providence
<azonenberg_work> Walking down this totally deserted street in the ghetto at 3AM holding a gym bag...
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: ok GlasgowSWDInterface is abstract
<whitequark> InitializeChain, ReadMemory, etc missing
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: Yeah i need to fill that out in SWDInterface
<azonenberg_work> that's base class code for the ARM SW-DP logic
<azonenberg_work> that isnt overriden from TestInterface yet
<prpplague> sorear: "The name New Providence Island is derived from a 16th‐century governor who gave thanks to Divine Providence for his survival after a shipwreck. The "New" was added later to distinguish it from Providencia off the Mosquito Coast (now Nicaragua) used by pirates."
<azonenberg_work> that's the main thing i need to finish to get SWD working
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: hehe
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: Anyway, so I get halfway down the street and i see this crackhead-looking white lady sitting on her front porch
<prpplague> awygle: ordered
<azonenberg_work> She says hi to me as I pass and I say hi back
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: so an average newyorker?
<azonenberg_work> Then she asks if I'm "the doctor:
* prpplague trolls
<azonenberg_work> "
<azonenberg_work> I... don't think I was mistaken for a physician
<whitequark> felix_: ah alright! thanks anyway
<azonenberg_work> :p
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: did you say "of course i am, here is my sonic screw driver!"
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: LOL no
<azonenberg_work> I just said no and decided to leave quickly :p
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: hehe
<azonenberg_work> Whatever she was buying, I didnt want to be around when the actual dealer showed up
<prpplague> awygle: ordered
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: anything else i can do?
<prpplague> tinyfpga: i see you added your fpga's to the square inch contest
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: At this point i'm going to implement empty stubs of those pure virtuals just so it compiles
<prpplague> tinyfpga: you have zero chance of winning against my very popular 1-bit full adder!
<azonenberg_work> Then start adding some code to jtagsh to print out registers and sanity check the implementation a bit, etc
<tinyfpga> prpplague: yup....but I have no expectations
* prpplague laughs evil like at tinyfpga
<azonenberg_work> Then start working on the actual AP/DP code
<tinyfpga> prpplague: haha!
<prpplague> tinyfpga: i thought i would troll the contest
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<azonenberg_work> prpplague: how about a SMT programmed FPGA array
<azonenberg_work> have say 2 LUTs or something made out of 01005 0-ohm resistors instead of sram cells
<azonenberg_work> resistor or no resistor sets the functionality :P
<azonenberg_work> then some discrete logic or something to do the surrounding logic
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: gonna have to think about this
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: you could almost do it with some small plyfuses
<azonenberg_work> ooh actually yeah you could make it OTP
<azonenberg_work> fuse programmed
<prpplague> gee thanks you bastards now i am going to be up at 3am thinking about this now
<azonenberg_work> Looks like 0402 is the smallest fuse you can get
<azonenberg_work> with blow currents as low as 50 mA
<azonenberg_work> But they're expensive, 84 cents each :o
<prpplague> meh, in the name of science
<azonenberg_work> i think 0-ohm resistor or lack thereof is gonna be better
<azonenberg_work> no need to worry about how to program it either
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: yea, i'll have to think about it
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: certainly something i'll research and experiment with next
* prpplague is crazy that way
<tinyfpga> prpplague, azonenberg_work: if you use diodes to program the LUT then you just need a 4-16 decoder at one end and a buffer at the other for a LUT4
<azonenberg_work> tinyfpga: Yeah i guess you could try to find some tiny diodes too
<azonenberg_work> use a greenpak for the decoder? :p
<prpplague> tinyfpga: yea i've seen people doing that with CPU projects, a lot of them like to use LED's
<azonenberg_work> you could probably fit a whole CLB in 1 in^2
<azonenberg_work> (is there a rule about how many pcb layers you can use? are WLCSPs off limits?)
<tinyfpga> azonenberg_work: I think the only rule is that it’s one square inch
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: oh you mean for the contest? naw i'd do something bigger
<azonenberg_work> tinyfpga: Lol
<azonenberg_work> if my lab was up and running
<azonenberg_work> i'd do something nuts with like a 6-8L PCB full of WLCSP FPGAs and stuff :p
<azonenberg_work> i enjoy doing extremely dense PCBs, i just dont usually have a justification for miniaturizing to that extreme
<prpplague> would be easy for me to convert this type of design into LUT type config
* prpplague grumbles
<prpplague> seems the petrol delivery to my mother-in-law's house is later
* prpplague grumbles
<awygle> oh is this the 1 inch contest? When does that end?
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<awygle> I had something I wanted to do but I missed the start and now I doubt I have time...
* qu1j0t3 reads this in Eeyore's voice
<prpplague> awygle: oct1
* qu1j0t3 'a bit like life, really...'
<prpplague> awygle: they extended
* qu1j0t3 'no-one told me when to run... I missed the starting gun...'
<prpplague> awygle: there were complaints that there was too little time to order pcbs
<prpplague> run qu1j0t3 , run !
<tinyfpga> azonenberg_work: it would be pretty darn funny to implement an FPGA CLB/PLB on an FPGA chip on the square inch board XD
<prpplague> qu1j0t3: do you want to be a shrimpin boat captain too?
<qu1j0t3> dig that hole, forget the sun...
<awygle> qu1j0t3: when at last the work is done
<qu1j0t3> don't sit down, it's time to dig another one...
<awygle> don't sit down, it's time to dig a other one
<azonenberg_work> tinyfpga: in that case i'd just throw down an xc7a50t or so
<azonenberg_work> run my xc2c32a emulator on it
<azonenberg_work> and call it a coolrunner devkit :D
<prpplague> qu1j0t3: hehe, now there is a mash up "Dark Side of Forest Gump"
<azonenberg_work> Hmmmmm i'm now thinking i might want to refactor the SWD stuff a little more, so that i can run the SW-DP stuff clientside
<azonenberg_work> Since that would be a better fit for how the JTAG stack is layered
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAwYH
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal/master 34f7f09 Andrew Zonenberg: Moved SW-DP logic out of SWDInterface to a separate ARMSWDDebugPort class
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-cmake] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAwY7
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-cmake/master 38044a2 Andrew Zonenberg: Updated to latest submodules
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: is the tunnel up now? i wanted to do a quick test
<azonenberg_work> basically just "does it compile and run over the socket interface" for the moment
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: yes up
<whitequark> i put it in a loop so it goes up even if it dies
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: glasgow has swd flashed and on and DUT is connected
<whitequark> unidentified cortex-m0
<azonenberg_work> Same port?
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> did it break?
<azonenberg_work> /home/azonenberg/jtaghal-cmake/lib/jtaghal/FTDIDriver.cpp:40:10: fatal error: ftd2xx/ftd2xx.h: No such file or directory
<azonenberg_work> Where did you install libftd2xx?
<azonenberg_work> I expect it in /usr/include/ftd2xx/
<azonenberg_work> (i guess i can try to disable the ftdi backend since we're not using it on this system but...)
<whitequark> let me see
<whitequark> wait
<whitequark> I don't have libftd2xx
<whitequark> it's a debian system with no proprietary junk
<azonenberg_work> So in that case i have a bug where i detected it despite not being present
<whitequark> yeah
<azonenberg_work> it should have been disabled
<azonenberg_work> sec
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: nope, not a bug
<azonenberg_work> azonenberg@raidho:~/jtaghal-cmake/build$ ls /usr/local/lib/libftd2xx.so -lh
<azonenberg_work> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 18 Feb 6 2018 /usr/local/lib/libftd2xx.so -> libftd2xx.so.1.4.6
<azonenberg_work> i detect the libs and expect you to have the headers installed
<whitequark> oh I see
<whitequark> why the hell do I have it?
<whitequark> i deleted it
<azonenberg_work> I cant answer that, but it's there :)
<whitequark> problem solved lol
<whitequark> I think some proprietary junk installed it
<azonenberg_work> can you make a ticket on jtaghal-cmake for this though?
<azonenberg_work> presence of the lib without headers should not trigger building the ftdi backend
<azonenberg_work> or this will happen to anyone with ftdi and not ftdi-dev
<whitequark> done
<azonenberg_work> (this is the first time i personally have tried buidling jtaghal on another system, lol)
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-apps] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAw3m
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-apps/master adc7d13 Andrew Zonenberg: Added missing breaks to switch statement
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-cmake] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAw3O
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-cmake/master 94ade8f Andrew Zonenberg: Updated to latest submodules
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-apps] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAw32
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-apps/master d862a8e Andrew Zonenberg: Added another missing break
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-cmake] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAw3a
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-cmake/master 4286013 Andrew Zonenberg: Updated to latest submodules
<azonenberg_work> OK, so now i need to add jtagd --list support to find Glasgows
<azonenberg_work> or actually...
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: can you do that?
<azonenberg_work> Implement, in GlasgowSWDInterface...
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: probably. what's the relevant code?
<azonenberg_work> static std::string GetSerialNumber(int index);
<azonenberg_work> static std::string GetDescription(int index);
<azonenberg_work> static int GetInterfaceCount();
<azonenberg_work> static std::string GetAPIVersion();
<whitequark> hm
<azonenberg_work> for index = 0...GetInterfaceCount()
<whitequark> is that really the best API?
<whitequark> it's racy
<azonenberg_work> No, but it's what i have right now
<azonenberg_work> It will be enough to get that working until i have time to sit back and refactor ALL of the adapter classes to use a cleaner API that preferably doesnt require lots of api-specific code in jtagd
<whitequark> ok
<azonenberg_work> Feel free to make a ticket
<azonenberg_work> i think i had one for this before on my old redmine and never moved it to github
<azonenberg_work> then forgot because i dont plug/unplug adapters too often :P
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: what is "GetAPIVersion"
<azonenberg_work> Protocol version or driver version. Not required, or return a constant
<azonenberg_work> It's mostly for using third party binary-blob driver packages for things like FTDI dongles
<azonenberg_work> just so you can tell if you're up to date at a glance
<awygle> version numbers are good, otherwise you can't change anything ever without breaking backwards compat
<awygle> looking at lcd screens while wearing polarized sunglasses is fun
<azonenberg_work> awygle: lol
<azonenberg_work> there's a reason my main sunglasses aren't polarized
<azonenberg_work> They're also like $12 a pair or something and have replaceable lenses :p
<awygle> i literally paid 2$ for these
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: what is "GetDescription"
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: Human-readable description of the adapter, generally from usb descriptor strings
<azonenberg_work> make/model or similar
<azonenberg_work> i'd return something like "Glasgow Rev A" or similar
<whitequark> hh ok
<azonenberg_work> awygle: but are those impact rated too?
<awygle> azonenberg_work: no
<awygle> ... i mean i assume no
<azonenberg_work> I wont buy sunglasses that aren't V0 and Z87.1+ rated
<awygle> huh, "Meets ANSI impact resistant standards"
<awygle> idk what that means tho
<azonenberg_work> these are cheap enough it's not worth it
<azonenberg_work> Yeah that might just mean Z87, not the high impact standard
<awygle> i just bought them to wear on my bike
<azonenberg_work> Yeah see, i've been hit enough in the face by high velocity rocks and bugs and stuff
<awygle> i keep one pair at home, one in the car, and one at work
<azonenberg_work> i want actually impact rated eyewear on the bike :)
<azonenberg_work> I have a clear and a dark and swap depending on weather
<awygle> yours aren't as cool as mine tho :p