<gruetzkopf> never owned a ds flashcard
<TD-Linux> yes, I spent some time REing it but then stopped caring after a while
<rqou> iirc there was a hilarious late-gen one that crammed an ingenic mips into the cart
<whitequark> rqou: the fuck
<rqou> what?
<rqou> other than the part where it's actually faster than the ds itself
<sorear> mumble ARC
<TD-Linux> no
<TD-Linux> fun fact: the ps2 slim emulates the ps1 MIPS core on a PowerPC
<rqou> i've heard about that
<rqou> not sure exactly how true that is
<rqou> ps2 scene is a giant mess full of piracy and secrecy
<TD-Linux> rqou, enough that there is a toolchain for the ppc core
<rqou> oh there's code exec on the ppc?
<rqou> i can't tell if that involves an exploit or if it's just supposed to work lol
<TD-Linux> the ppc ram is mapped into the ee address space iirc so you can load it in somehow
<rqou> hmm, ps2 homebrew might be fun if the tools and docs weren't all so bitrotten and broken
<TD-Linux> yeah. ds and wii community was a lot better
<rqou> gpu docs are kinda shit
<rqou> also f0f's obfuscations were all pretty evil
<TD-Linux> for wii I tried to skip the gpu "library" and write directly to hardware
<TD-Linux> didn't get very far though
<TD-Linux> party because I soon learned how real GPUs worked and that made the wii's legacy design uninteresting
<rqou> in general i find people are really bad at writing "systems-level" documentation
<rqou> switch might actually be interesting because with a click-through nda you can download the full trm
<TD-Linux> well it's "just" an off the shelf nvidia soc
<TD-Linux> and afaik the gpu api is just vulkan, I would guess the trm doesn't tell you the low level hw behavior
<rqou> no it doesn't; that's afaik one of the few undocumented parts
<rqou> the rest of it is the secure boot chain
<rqou> oh and "phy stuff" link dram link training
<TD-Linux> tbh I don't know why I would want to write switch homebrew over a phone game
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<rqou> the soc is faster?
<TD-Linux> yeah I guess, also less thermal throttling
<rqou> hmm i have a hilarious idea
<rqou> gruetzkopf: citra on horizon :P
<TD-Linux> I recently started playing with the oculus go and thermal throttling on even that is somewhat obnoxious
<rqou> i should play with a modern system at some point
<rqou> unfortunately i've never found a good "how to graphics" tutorial that i liked
<TD-Linux> most of the tutorials I've seen are bad
<TD-Linux> you could start with something high level, like shadertoy or aframe
<rqou> last time i complained about this whitequark basically said that the way i tend to learn things basically completely doesn't match how "graphics people" learn things
<TD-Linux> you can also sit on #dri-devel for a few years
<rqou> meh, i've never had a good experience with these "large and well established" open source groups
<rqou> most of them seem to have a really strong "you're not in the loop enough" vibe
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<TD-Linux> that's why you lurk more :)
<TD-Linux> but yeah a lot of the low level stuff is kinda boring tbh. learning how to use vertex buffer arrays is on the same level as designing kicad components for me :^)
* sorear is curious to know more about A2 autobahn electrification
<TD-Linux> on a barely more on topic note, why has no one made a LPC to ISA adapter
<TD-Linux> so I can plug a sb16 into my pc
<rqou> if you're thinking about using the tpm lpc bus, accesses don't get sent to that port unless they're in the right range
<rqou> also TD-Linux i only really know how to use glBegin :P
<TD-Linux> rqou, oh, disappointing. same for the super io pins?
<rqou> insert @eevee-rant here about how all examples that aren't using glBegin have 200ish lines of copypasta and don't even explain to you how to draw more than one triangle
<rqou> or how to draw one triangle that changes
<sorear> my old highschool had a book lying around that talked about How Graphics Cards Work. except … it was *old*, predating 3D, talking about vector vs raster displays, and how shit used to work on minicomputer display terminals
<sorear> i wish i could remember the title or any other useful information about it
<sorear> i,i "draw the rest of the triangle"
<rqou> somehow "graphics" seems to just love the "draw the rest of the owl" problem
<TD-Linux> rqou, write programs for your gpu instead. like https://www.shadertoy.com/view/MdX3zr
<rqou> great, now how do i begin understanding how it works?
<TD-Linux> let me find a simpler example
<zkms> idk mayb read the datasheets for a vaguely modern GPU?
<rqou> or the @eevee question of "great, how do i make two of them?"
<TD-Linux> but basically that function gets called once for each pixel on the screen
<TD-Linux> its only input is the (x,y) coordinate
<rqou> so it's only a fragment shader?
<rqou> no vertex shader or "how do i actually upload data to the gpu?"
<pie_> part of the graphics draw the rest of the owl problem is also that you need someone artistic to actually make something xD
<pie_> that doesnt look like teapots
<rqou> you can do fancy pixel art or a minecraft-like aesthetic :P
<pie_> wait i know, maybe if I use a large number of small enough teapots....
<q3k> low poly modeling is somewhat fun even for non artistic types
<q3k> especially when you're trying to build something industrial looking
<q3k> spaceships and robots and whatnot
<q3k> and the cool thing about 3d vertex based art (or even 3d sculpting software) is how easy you can just undo and retry your modification/stroke
<q3k> i used to love messing about and making game mod art in 3dsmax when i was a kid
<q3k> and I can't art myself out of a paper bag otherwise
<pie_> i kinda tried blender a few times and truespace 3d when that was a thing but i hadnt the faintest clue what i was doing
<q3k> i still haven't learned blender either
<pie_> kind of managed to cut some holes in cylinders lol
<pie_> i think blender might have gotten a UI revamp recently
<q3k> 3dsmax clicked with me because it kinda felt like mostly made by engineers with some artistic NURBSy things bolted on top
<q3k> but it all boiled down to vertices and modified stacks
<q3k> *modifier
<pie_> i kind of wish you could bolt blender on top of some more engineering type engine :P but thats just me wanting to glue random pieces of things together
<TD-Linux> I've used blender since I was in middle school so all of its quirks are now baked into me
<TD-Linux> but I actually started on wings3d
<TD-Linux> pie_, for more engineering like, you can try openscad or freecad (vastly different approaches)
<TD-Linux> also whitequark is supposed to shill solvespace here
<pie_> haha
<pie_> yeah i was half seriously telling awygle a while ago that we should "build a better openscad" so to speak :P
<pie_> ive played with it a little
<TD-Linux> openscad is what you want if you're doing a zillion boolean ops.
<TD-Linux> freecad has massively improved recently. it's now usable.
<TD-Linux> solvespace operates similarly to freecad
<pie_> caveat, i've never actually used a proper cad application
<pie_> though the thought i was playing around with was to have a language where you could simultaneously use a gui and write the code and they would "follow" eachother
<pie_> (hopefully in a sane way)
<TD-Linux> I used proprietary parametric modelers before freecad so that helped me use it
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<TD-Linux> you generate objects in freecad with a constraint/modifier stack, which is in some ways like "code"
<pie_> well, before I start writing anything (if ever) it certainly makes sense to see what people currently actually do
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<cr1901_modern> >(8:37:08 PM) TD-Linux: rqou, oh, disappointing. same for the super io pins?
<cr1901_modern> Dunno if super I/O pin accesses are intercepted in the same manner, but according to wiki page "Device discovery is not supported; firmware has a static map of valid device addresses"
<cr1901_modern> Idk how the firmware sets up the hardware to make sure out of range accesses are never seen by the LPC though. PCI(e) routing thing?
<cr1901_modern> In the most ancient PCI boards, there was a PCI-to-ISA bridge chip. I found a datasheet for it recently: https://mastodon.social/@cr1901/100724084017238693
<cr1901_modern> Can't remember offhand if out-of-range accesses (outside of port 0-0x3ff, 0-0xfffff, or the holes for "absent hardware") are even seen by the ISA bus on that chip
<rqou> afaik modern x86 address decodes are a clusterfuck
<rqou> idk if sb16 addresses go to the super io
<rqou> for all i know the hd audio block might trap and emulate them
<rqou> or even smm mode can emulate them (i've heard of this existing but don't know which platform did it)
<cr1901_modern> How do you know that address ranges outside of TPM aren't even routed to the super io chip?
<rqou> i don't know if they are or not
<rqou> i was saying that it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't
<rqou> i know for sure that on one particular mobo i tested ~5 years ago only TPM addresses ended up on the TPM header LPC bus
<sorear> we know there is at least one mobo where RAM can talk to the integrated eithernet over SMBus
<rqou> wtf
* TD-Linux is feeling better and better about his talos pc
<cr1901_modern> >idk if sb16 addresses go to the super io
<cr1901_modern> Also, that's fun to think about. Theoretically two sb emulation layers on a badly-behaving motherboard responding to a request to read/write sb data
<cr1901_modern> (err, I meant to copy "for all i know the hd audio block might trap and emulate them")
* cr1901_modern bows out
<sorear> does sb16 mean soundblaster or some other piece of fun pc legacy
<TD-Linux> just soundblaster 16
<TD-Linux> the actual thought I had was to interface my pc-fxga to lpc bus
<rqou> pc-fpga?
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<rqou> wait, some weird japanese console in a pc?
<TD-Linux> yes, pc-fx. it's available in both dos/v (isa) and pc98 (c-bus) versions. I have the c-bus one
<TD-Linux> I made an ice40 based cbus card but it would be fun to do the opposite
<rqou> wow, so much poorly-preserved japanese tech
<rqou> now i get why weebs like byuu get upset
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<TD-Linux> yeah. besides the weeb appeal, japanese tech is fun because it's not done-to-death like the c64 etc, but still has a large library of software and peripherals
<rqou> https://twitter.com/elfsternberg/status/1041546349416636416 <-- time to build some more "wearables"? :P
<awygle> is it fair to say a counter's logic depth is linear in its width in bits?
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<rqou> oh wtf
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<rqou> azonenberg_work: your message crashed my hexchat
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<rqou> azonenberg_work: your message crashed my hexchat
<rqou> how did you manage to do that?
<azonenberg_work> um, lol
<azonenberg_work> no idea
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: i have the same response when people say "wow you fixed it, how did you manage to do that?"
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: lol, all i did was disconnect and reconnect to fix a clientside bug
<prpplague> i rebooted it three times and waited 10 seconds before each
<azonenberg_work> i wonder if hexchat handled the "user offline" error wrong with some kind of race condition
<rqou> insert "the website is down" here :P
<rqou> maybe it's also related to how i had two different "azonenberg_work" PM windows
<rqou> which resulted from you changing your nick to kick some spammers a while back
<azonenberg_work> lol
<azonenberg_work> i also hopped server during the reconnect
<azonenberg_work> And changed OTR key
<azonenberg_work> Because the reason i disconnected is that my client was using barjavel.freenode.net instead of chat.freenode.net as the server hostname
<azonenberg_work> and thus not using my chat.freenode.net private key
<azonenberg_work> (i had set that up a while ago when i had network issues reaching one of the chat.freenode.net pool servers)
<rqou> seriously why does freenode work so poorly?
<azonenberg_work> This was on my end
<azonenberg_work> related to a VPN i had to use to ping a client's network from a predictable IP vs my LTE IP
<azonenberg_work> routing rules were funky
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<whitequark> azonenberg_work: SWD?
<keesj> tinyfpga: hi
<keesj> I have been looking at implementing somthing similar to your type of board but using a ICE40UP5K (QFN48)
<keesj> if possible I would like to use the same strategy (e.g. without an ftdi chip)
<keesj> would it be correct to assume I indeed need an external oscillator and spi ? https://github.com/tinyfpga/TinyFPGA-Bootloader
<keesj> (I have to run) will talk later.
<pie_> is there something ice40 that i can get in europe without having to pay out the ass to digikey for shipping or what was it
<pie_> i wanted to get an ice40stick originally
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<daveshah> pie_: have a look at trenz, they are in Europe. They have the icoboard and I think the icezero
<pie_> tbf i really liked the usb form factor i think x3
<pie_> hm icoboard looks expensive for me for the moment, well im working on other things right now anyway
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<pie_> lmao
<whitequark> keesj: up5k fabric is very slow.
<q3k> pie_: mouser.com, just have to buy more crap to get free shipping
<pie_> i havent really had any crap that needs buying :P
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<awygle> iirc there was a lot of difficulty with getting the USB bootloader working on a up5k but I can't remember if that problem was eventually solved.
<whitequark> i think it was but you have to use the proprietary toolchain.
<awygle> whitequark: so I cleaned up the bridges last night, got weird behavior, went to bed, and then *just* as I was falling asleep realized the LEDs were in backwards.
<gruetzkopf> that's stuff that gets me wide awake
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<awygle> yeah I got up, poked it with the diode tester to confirm, then went back to sleep
<keesj> pie_: I got the icestick from farnell (element 14) so tax was already paid
<keesj> damm cheap
<whitequark> awygle: I always check LED polarity like three times.
<whitequark> fuck polarized components amirite
<whitequark> at least have the decency to make LEDs in a SOT-323 case
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<awygle> or just like, at all asymmetrical
<keesj> (it used to be 32 euro)
<whitequark> just flip it to see the small green triangle underneath
<whitequark> then lose it while trying to flip it again
<whitequark> pick it up, flip it, ...
<whitequark> forget which direction the green triangle was pointing
<q3k> i stopped trying to kill my eyes and just use my multimeter in diode mode
<whitequark> awygle: maybewe can use one of those through board hole LEDs
<whitequark> so you can actually see the direction you're soldering it in
<whitequark> that's why they exist right
<pie_> keesj, oh hey. do they also have fun shipping prices thoug
<pie_> well i guess one cant have everything being aliexpress :P
<pie_> huuuuh....standard shipping 10$
<pie_> *intrigued*
<whitequark> why does anyone even use LEDs in diode packages
<awygle> hmm
<pie_> ....wtf is it just me or is farnell down, it was working 5 minutes ago
<awygle> yes, not a bad idea at all. too late for rev b tho
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<pie_> "Secure Connection Failed: The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading."
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<pie_> i touch things and they break ;_;
<gruetzkopf> "super bright" aka "don't give them more than 1µA"
<whitequark> gruetzkopf: have i told you the story of the glasgow LEDs
<gruetzkopf> i believe so
<whitequark> i was going to design them to run at 250 mcd before azonenberg intervened
<whitequark> because i had no idea what a candela is
<gruetzkopf> a candela is painful to look at
<whitequark> i ran them at (i think) 50 mcd
<whitequark> and they are blindingly bright
<whitequark> they hurt to look at in a dim room.
<whitequark> that's like 1 milliamp
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<prpplague> whitequark: i've wondered that myself
<prpplague> whitequark: i have about 10k of similar red LEDs
<prpplague> whitequark: still haven't figured out what to do with them
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: so I found a vendor of four row QFNs
<whitequark> worst package, or worst package
<awygle> whyyy
<awygle> that SatanTech thing was supposed to be a joke
<emeb> yeesh - I accidentally bought a bunch of those 2-row QFNs for the ice40HX parts
<whitequark> what
<whitequark> ice40 has a 2-row QFN version?
<emeb> yep
<whitequark> what the fuck
<emeb> No way to make those work w/ hobby-grade PCB processes
<emeb> needs via-in-pad
<awygle> my initial thought was "is that true?" and i opened up the datasheet before realizing i don't care because i'll never ever design something like that in.
<whitequark> hahaha
<prpplague> hehe
<awygle> this is, i feel, a sign of maturity (at long last)
<whitequark> emeb: oh so the QN84 one is DR
<whitequark> and a really nasty DR too
<whitequark> what an incredibly fucked up package
<emeb> whitequark: yeah - this was a few years ago. not surprised they deprecated it
<whitequark> emeb: wait, it only has LP1K in that package
<prpplague> whitequark: thanks for reminding me i need to find something to use those LEDs on
<emeb> sounds right
<awygle> "QFNS"
<awygle> also an amusingly incorrect footnote
<emeb> OTOH, the UP5k in 48pin QFN is amazingly easy to design in.
<awygle> i sort of begrudgingly admit that that is true
<awygle> i still hate QFNs though
<awygle> and i wonder why they picked QFN for that package
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<felix_> pci->isa adapters usually don't support legacy isa dma; the lpc->isa ones do if the serialized drq pin is routed. the timing of the legace dma changes a bit compared to a native isa bus though
<gruetzkopf> generic ones do not
<gruetzkopf> the ones in intel PCIset from back thenTM do
<TD-Linux> the hx1k in qfp100 is super easy. but it's the only part they have in that package so I fear for its future
<awygle> it's also giant
<whitequark> >qfp100
<whitequark> i hope you like removing solder bridges
<whitequark> and also offsetting your QFP by one row
<Miyu> *zap*
<whitequark> and then getting more solder bridges during rework
<emeb> I do a fair amount of DIY soldering of QFPs and don't have a lot of issues with soldering
<Miyu> and then tossing the board out of the window?
<whitequark> i prefer thermite
<emeb> but I use drag soldering with a proper hoof tip
<whitequark> right, that solves most of these problems
<whitequark> you still get solder bridges occasionally but they're easy to remove
<emeb> and *lots* of gel flux
<whitequark> "more flux" is always a good idea when soldering.
<whitequark> one particularly nasty board i reworked once, i have literally drowned it in flux
<sorear> kinda open ended question: how does one go about learning pcb design?
<emeb> do it
<emeb> fix it
<gruetzkopf> ^
<emeb> try again
<whitequark> melted a chunk of rosin in the place i was reworking and did the entire thing under the cover of rosin
<gruetzkopf> wow
<whitequark> i was annoyed at it soldering badly okay?
<whitequark> it wasn't soldering badly ever again after that
<emeb> "nuke it from orbit - the only way to be sure"
<awygle> sorear: in addition to "do it", finding somebody you can show stuff to and ask questions is a huge help. there's only really like four things you need to know about PCB design, but their application is often tricky.
<emeb> also true
<awygle> (open ended offer to perform this service for anybody interested)
<emeb> my wife did a lot of PCB design professionally so she gave me good advice. :)
<whitequark> PCB design can be really open-ended and as a novice i struggled with it
<whitequark> like what trace width do you use for signals?
<whitequark> do you do a star or an open ring topology
<whitequark> how do you place components
<whitequark> not even going into things like, how do you make silk legible
<awygle> yeah. all of that falls out of knowing about inductance/impedance, but there are lots of steps from A to B.
<prpplague> whitequark: i've been teaching my soon to do pcb layout, i've been struggling on how to answer similar questions from him
<awygle> maybe i'll make a "beginner pcb checklist" or something on github...
<whitequark> that'd be great
* awygle adds to list
<pointfree> Has anyone here used these foss fast field solvers? https://www.fastfieldsolvers.com/software.htm
<awygle> sorear: no, and those look awesome. thanks for sharing
<awygle> errrr pointfree. sorry
<pointfree> There's also a fastmaxwell http://web.mit.edu/~tmoselhy/www/FastMaxwell/ but it appears unmaintained and superseded by fastimp (?)
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<awygle> my cats (who, keep in mind, have never met a mouse or other prey animal) are now such good hunters that i can't keep the fishing rod toy away from them for longer than 45 seconds or so
<sorear> i am imagining awygle's cats sneaking out with the rod to go rod-fishing in the nearest body of water
<awygle> they totally would if they could
<emeb> they can be remarkably single-minded
<emeb> we had one with "food security issues" who would spend hours trying to figure out the auto feeder.
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<awygle> my previous cat did that, which was a success as far as we were concerned because it meant she stopped waking us up at 5am
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<awygle> hey whitequark, do you know anything about proton pump inhibitors?
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<whitequark> awygle: uh... maybe?
<whitequark> what up
<awygle> I accidentally bought esomeprazole instead of omeprazole and it's hilariously more effective
<awygle> Curious if that's always true or just me, and also if it's going to slowly destroy my liver or something
<whitequark> interesting
<whitequark> ah yeah that's expected
<awygle> mk cool
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<rqou> whee, $work finally finished renovating my floor
<rqou> so disappointing
<rqou> no more purple
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<jn__> it's a GIF floor, it was transparent :P
<rqou> not magic pink/purple, a nice deep purple
<rqou> now replaced with a boring white/black/blue-highlights
<prpplague> did someone say purple?
<rqou> a purple plague on the early internet :P
<prpplague> ho ho hum
* prpplague updates his laptop before heading to the airport
<prpplague> fun fun fun
* prpplague grumbles at having to convert tinyfpga 's -Bx to altium
<whitequark> awygle: sorry was away abit
<whitequark> awygle: usually you have a few enantiomers and only one of them is active
<whitequark> so, omeprazole is a racemic mixture and esomeprazole is just the active thing
<whitequark> I bet it also has weird effects on pharmacokinetics
* whitequark clicks
<whitequark> >The (R)-entantiomer of omeprazole is metabolized exclusively by the enzyme CYP2C19, which is expressed in very low amounts by 3% of the population. Treated with a normal dose of the enantiomeric mixture, these persons will experience blood levels five-times higher than those with normal CYP2C19 production. In contrast, esomeprazole is metabolized by both CYP2C19 and CYP3A4, providing less-variable
<whitequark> drug exposure.
<whitequark> literally what i expected
<awygle> lol
<whitequark> apparently some people accuse astrazeneca of doing this just for patent reasons
<whitequark> but i'm pretty sure they did this for medical AND patent reasons
<awygle> The kinetics make sense to me. The enantiomer thing I think is
<awygle> supposed to be covered by the dosage difference
<awygle> Maybe it doesn't work that way though
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* TD-Linux also lives on omeprazole
<whitequark> awygle: each time CYP450 is involved
<whitequark> you get pretty wild differences in kinetics based on a load of factors
<whitequark> starting with genetics and ending with grapefruit juice
<whitequark> you should thank gods you don't need hormonal birth control, because when THAT interacts with CYP450, half of your meds randomly change duration of action and the other half makes you bleed
<whitequark> (and changes duration of action, too, because fuck you, that's why)
<TD-Linux> sorear, btw you don't have to hold yourself to the standards of certain super nitpicky youtubers
<whitequark> i mean, *technically*, you could use hormonal birth control. progestins inhibit FSH/LH pulsation, which does the trick. in fact you can use the same kind of hormonal birth control for both male and female cats
<sorear> i don't watch youtube, at all, so i'm mercifully(?) ignorant here
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<whitequark> but you'd need to wait like 70 days after starting before this technique becomes effective with perfect use, there's a bunch of potential side effects like mood changes and ED, and you need either a daily pill or yearly injection, with the latter being a corticosteroid,
<whitequark> but yeah it would work
<whitequark> i think i went off on a tangent.
<sorear> that has to be a depot, right? no drug has that long of a half-life
<Ultrasauce> whitequark: re reprap the smoothie ecosystem is much less hideously disgusting than the arduino/sanguino/marlin stuff
<Ultrasauce> though still far from perfect
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<Ultrasauce> you'd think a simple motion control board and firmware would be straightforward to do *right* but uh, makers
<TD-Linux> marlin stuff is fine too, especially on better designed boards like RAMBo
<TD-Linux> it's mostly the bottom barrel aliexpress printers that still use RAMPS
<TD-Linux> and often RAMPS is far from their biggest problems
<Ultrasauce> idk I tried working with a multi-extruder marlin fork a couple years ago and it made me question my life choices
<TD-Linux> dunno, it's been smooth sailing for me. the smoothieboard is of course nice too
<awygle> TD-Linux: which youtuber? eevlog?
<TD-Linux> yes mostly, to a lesser extent bigclive
<whitequark> Ultrasauce: hmmm ok
<whitequark> sorear: yes depot
<whitequark> depo provera
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<rqou> wait that works on males too?
<rqou> why didn't i learn that in health class? :P
<emeb> isn't that what's used for "chemical castration"?
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<sorear> i thought *that* was generally high-dose e2
<rqou> do we even still use "chemical castration"?
<Bike> several US states do it to sex offenders, apparently.
<TD-Linux> if you haven't seen it yet https://twitter.com/s_osafune/status/1040924994631426048
<reportingsjr> TD-Linux: oh, whoa
<reportingsjr> first time I've seen a USB-C board connector like that
<reportingsjr> neat!
<awygle> oh cool, that does work
<awygle> i had done the math and thought it should but i'd never seen one
<rqou> btw whitequark: is there a good document on "everything you ever wanted to know about the endocrine system but were too afraid to ask"?
<rqou> i would assume the trans community had worked on something like that?
<cr1901_modern> felix_: The specific PCI->ISA adapter I linked _does_ support ISA DMA; but it is also an ancient device from back when ISA DMA was still relevant (go figure :P)
<balrog> (keysight uxr 110GHz scope teardown)
<gruetzkopf> "teardown"
<gruetzkopf> but *great* vid and instrument
<balrog> > The 110GHz 4-channel variant of the UXR-Series oscilloscope has an MSRP of $1.3 Million US dollars.
<rqou> W T F
<azonenberg_work> rqou: that sounds about right for the specs
<azonenberg_work> I was quoted a price i can't share, but on par with a used Ferrari, for a 4 GHz 40-Gsps 4-channel LeCroy
<azonenberg_work> the Labmaster scopes are probably on par with a new ferrari up to a decent house
<rqou> why are these prices secret?
<azonenberg_work> rqou: Because they're not the same for every customer
<azonenberg_work> :p
<azonenberg_work> everything is negotiated based on options, your ability to pay, etc
<balrog> rqou: it's status quo for such high priced products
<balrog> which kinda sucks
<azonenberg_work> once you enter "call for quote" territory there isnt a fixed price
<azonenberg_work> the sales guy tries to maximize his company's profit without losing the sale and thus his commission
<balrog> I wish there was a price list with "max" prices
<azonenberg_work> balrog: lecroy has "starting at" prices for their product lines
<azonenberg_work> which is basically the MSRP for the base model with no optoins
<awygle> market segmentation :p
<azonenberg_work> rqou: btw, http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/wavesurfer-510-oscilloscopes is on my christmas list
<azonenberg_work> or more like the "when the lab is finished enough i can unpack equipment and hopefully am not spending $$$$/mo on construction anymore" list
<rqou> starting at $13k
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<azonenberg_work> rqou: yes
<azonenberg_work> That's a $13K tax break :p
<sorear> how crappy is the best scope you can just pick up retail
<azonenberg_work> As long as i can bring in that much from consulting during the year, i can write it all off as a business expense
<balrog> lol keysight has an official ebay store
<rqou> so, azonenberg_work: you've currently overrun August and you're on track to overrun September as well. what happened to "end of June?" :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: I did an updated interpolation of progress
<azonenberg_work> we've been sheetrocking/sanding/painting a room every 2 weeks since start of august
<azonenberg_work> Which puts us as having the place move-in-ready january 15th
<azonenberg_work> if we leave at least a room or two unpainted, plus her dad visiting tomorrow for a few weeks to help out
<azonenberg_work> we can probably be ready to move in late december
<sorear> what have we learned today?
<awygle> _wow_
<awygle> azonenberg_work: it is time to consider a short term loan to pay somebody to finish this shit for you.
<azonenberg_work> awygle: why? the new apt is only $1600/mo
<azonenberg_work> we're making good progress
<awygle> that gives you 4800$ to pay people to sheetrock
<azonenberg_work> except we're not just sheetrocking
<awygle> which is _plenty_
<azonenberg_work> we're doing finish work, we're doing painting, finish electrical, hanging cable tray, the ESD floors
<azonenberg_work> it's not just sheetrock
<awygle> i know, but still
<awygle> i mean do what you want, live your best life, etc
<awygle> but i'm far from convinced this is your best financial move _before_ you bring in quality of life
<azonenberg_work> awygle: I spent two weeks of spare time doing electrical work
<azonenberg_work> Judging by the fact that it cost me $3K just to put the new breaker panel in
<azonenberg_work> hanging 100+ feet of cable tray, installing 200 outlets, etc
<azonenberg_work> would be way more
<azonenberg_work> $10k+ probably
<sorear> are any rooms "done"?
<azonenberg_work> sorear: One storage room is move-in ready, no trim and the floor is just painted plywood but thats fine
<azonenberg_work> one half of the lab is fully painted and ready to go as well, all it needs is the ESD floor
<azonenberg_work> Two more rooms downstairs are mostly sheetrocked but going slower since i'm doing both in parallel
<azonenberg_work> i need to get them both pretty finished so i can run the cable tray through them
<pie_> azonenberg_work should write one of those DIY books
<jn__> ...oO(##homehome)
<balrog> I suppose azonenberg_work would be just as irked as I would be if the hired contractors don't do things just right :P
<pie_> jn__, kek
<balrog> especially around stuff like electrical
<azonenberg_work> balrog: Exactly
<balrog> and contractors usually hate to be babysat
<azonenberg_work> I was mad enough when the contractors routed the generator power feeds as THHNs in rigid PVC conduit in the celing
<pie_> yeah but thats not exactly surprisng around EEs is it?
<azonenberg_work> i told them i wanted a flex conduit i could drop into the cable tray
<azonenberg_work> balrog: and you have NO IDEA how much annoyance i have dealt with from incompetent subcontractors
<rqou> huh, TIL IDA can be bought as a "computer" license in addition to the usual "named" license
<balrog> when we got our boiler replaced, they didn't want to put the pump in the right place (the convention is to put it on the return side since the old way of thinking was that too much heat would ruin the pump... but that hasn't been an issue for decades and differential pressure circulator pumps work significantly better at higher overall pressur)
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i have one for work
<rqou> (and no, this one isn't pirated, amazing)
<azonenberg_work> balrog: the guy who built the front wall of the lab framed the door opening plumb and square but the floor wasn't level
<balrog> rqou: and floating too, but that becomes expensive
<azonenberg_work> I had to move a bunch of studs to fix that
<azonenberg_work> so that the door opening was tilted to be perpendicular to the slab rather than vertical
<balrog> azonenberg_work: we checked out a building a while ago where a second floor was built apparently directly on top of a former roof... and the roof was curved enough to notice
<azonenberg_work> The guys who did the sump pump didn't even put pvc glue on one of the joints
<azonenberg_work> i was wondering why it leaked
<azonenberg_work> decided to replace the joint
<azonenberg_work> as soon as my saw touched the pipe the joint popped open
<azonenberg_work> no sign of primer or adhesive whatsoever
<balrog> urgh
* pie_ remembers the sump story
<azonenberg_work> i sent a bill for the repair to my sales rep at the sump pump company :p
<balrog> did they just laugh at you?
<azonenberg_work> actually got a check to cover the cost of the fix
<balrog> oh nice
<balrog> lol
<azonenberg_work> it wasnt much but i know where the sales guy lives and he's in my SAR unit
<pie_> i like how azonenberg_work added "i know where he lives"
<pie_> as if that was a factor
<azonenberg_work> :p
<azonenberg_work> point is i am not thrilled at my quality of the subcontractors i've had in the past
<pie_> were you going to sabotage his pumps
<pie_> by removing the adhesive
<azonenberg_work> Also, residential construction companies tend not to like building to commercial standards
<azonenberg_work> they build cheaply and minimum legal
<azonenberg_work> I'm building this place to well beyond the code requirements on a lot of things
<pie_> sigh
<pie_> i want a well built house
<pie_> but im not good enough to make one myself :P
<azonenberg_work> i wasn't this time last year either :p
* pie_ scratches head
<pie_> on the plus side you wont be paying thousands in rent anymore
<azonenberg_work> Yes
<balrog> that gets replaced by utilities and property tax :p
<balrog> and a mortgage
<azonenberg_work> balrog: mortgage + tax + insurance on this place we bought
<azonenberg_work> is $700/mo less than rent at our old place
<balrog> yep
<pie_> wow
<pie_> so, i find property tax kind of weird
<azonenberg_work> And we went from like 1600 to 1900 ft^2
<pie_> its like its not really your land, you're just renting from the government ;
<pie_> ;P
<azonenberg_work> or 2200 if you include the new lab
<azonenberg_work> pie_: if you lived in a libertarian paradise, you'd pay no property taxes at all
<pie_> like.....i understand taxes are needed for reasons
<azonenberg_work> But have a zillion utility bills
<balrog> pie_: because it isn't! your existence and occupation of the land has effects on the greater system
<sorear> i'd suggest "pay someone to build a commercial building", but, zoning
<pie_> but property tax feels kind of weird
<azonenberg_work> sorear: you can build a residential structure to commercial standards
<balrog> zoning is more about use
<azonenberg_work> if i ever build a house from scratch it will be steel truss framing with reinforced concrete floors
<balrog> (dealing with that crap rn, lol)
<azonenberg_work> steel studs
<pie_> like, what if you have land but you're poor
<azonenberg_work> pie_: yeah its not possible to live off the grid on your own land with no income
<azonenberg_work> Unless you have enough money to put in a trust fund and pay taxes off the interest :p
<pie_> :/
<pie_> back to serfdom ;P
<pie_> well not even?
<rqou> balrog: just ignore zoning (and safety)? :P
<rqou> something something ghost ship
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<gruetzkopf> zoning
<rqou> too soon?
<gruetzkopf> ugh
<balrog> rqou: and get your neighbors to call the cops on you and get you shut down (best case)?
<gruetzkopf> all buildings i have to do with are zoned "mixed commercial/residential/industrial"
<pie_> balrog, no see you have to invest in covering up symptoms, not mitigation
<gruetzkopf> and i like it that way
<balrog> gruetzkopf: yeah but even that can be more specific
<balrog> (in the US at least)
<azonenberg_work> gruetzkopf: my problem is that commercial-zoned buildings are hard to find in the middle of the woods in a quiet road
<rqou> i mean, ghost ship didn't get shut down because of neighbors
<balrog> and in the US you won't find buildings like that outside the central districts
<azonenberg_work> Which is where i really want to get
<rqou> for whatever that's worth
<gruetzkopf> middle of the woods is quite hard to find in germany
<balrog> rqou: others have been
<azonenberg_work> my current place is zoned residential but i actually have a city business license for my side projects so i have a company name to get stuff shipped to etc
<pie_> lol mad scientists lab in the middle of the woods
<gruetzkopf> i'm in barely-central-distric of a 20k people town
<balrog> azonenberg_work: you can do "office" work from your own house though, right?
<balrog> but once you have employees things become more complicated
<azonenberg_work> balrog: yeah, or even customers coming on site
<balrog> yep
<pie_> balrog, bah, who nees employees when you have children
<sorear> abolish the "central districts", allow building anything anywhere it is safe to do so
<azonenberg_work> but you can get away with a lot as a sole proprietory working rmeote
<balrog> sorear: I think there should be much more mixed use, but you don't want everything to become heavy industrial either :p
<gruetzkopf> sorear: that tends to result in unused houses in cities and land being removed from agriculture
<gruetzkopf> my favourite hackerspace is caged in between some artists and the offices and manufacturing plant of a small electric vehicle manufacturer
<sorear> unused houses are a thing we have way too few of here
<balrog> gruetzkopf: is there any residential nearby?
<balrog> my guess is yes
<gruetzkopf> yeah
<balrog> and what level of noise/odor/disruption does that manufacturing plant produce?
<awygle> abolish maximum height requirements
<balrog> my guess is relatively tolerable
<awygle> at the very least
<gruetzkopf> the car plant is much much less smelly than the zentis jam/marmelade factory next door :D
<balrog> but -- all these things I'm saying are highly subjective
<balrog> it's nowhere near as easy as just painting separate zones :P
<TAL> don't forget the rolling stock manufacturer nearby :P
<gruetzkopf> talbot *mostly* does interior and refurb there (and also metalwork for said car manufacturer)
<TAL> true, but they build some fuckin loud DMUs at some ponit there
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<felix_> cr1901_modern: ah, ok, that chip basically is a southbridge and contains the only legacy dma controller in the system. if you add a pci->isa chip to a newer systems where the southbridge has lpc instead of isa, the legacy dma controller in the southbridge will try to pull the data from the lpc bus, not from the isa bus behind the pci-isa-bridge
<rqou> it's so jarring to go between the "legacy" yellow/purple themed floors and the newly renovated floors
<rqou> thanks a lot, corporate overlords
<felix_> ok, some pci-isa bridges also contain a legacy dma controller, but its adresses get mapped somewhere else, so only software knowing about that, could do the right thing. of course the legacy software doesn't ;P
<gruetzkopf> yeah, you can map exactly one of these in the whole system to the right address
<gruetzkopf> why are you fishing around in the deep end of parallel PCI
<felix_> few years ago i had to debug why a special isa card using isa dma wasn't working in a newer computers
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