<TD-Linux> is there any migen documentation anywhere other than https://m-labs.hk/migen/manual/fhdl.html#conversion-for-synthesis
<TD-Linux> it's not clear to me how the platform stuff is supposed to work, and none of the official examples use it
<TD-Linux> I'm mostly guessing based on Glasgow
<whitequark> TD-Linux: I wrote a few tutorials
<TD-Linux> thanks, that will be very helpful!
<TD-Linux> what's the difference between _io and _connectors?
<whitequark> _io is for things that are fixed on the board, e.g. an FTDI chip you communicate through
<whitequark> _connectors is for, well, connectors, to which different daughterboards, specific for each design, may connect
<whitequark> so you can use connector numbering when describing those signals and not FPGA ball numbering
<cr1901_modern> TD-Linux: This is focused on adding a _new_ board, but https://www.wdj-consulting.com/blog/migen-port.html See the "I/O and Connectors" section for an example
<TD-Linux> I am adding a new board so that's ok
<cr1901_modern> TD-Linux: Well then you're in luck, this gives a walkthrough on how I added an existing board :P
<TD-Linux> ok. I noticed some boards stick their gpio in connectors and wasn't sure why that was done
<TD-Linux> I guess Connectors makes more Pins rather than direct Signals created by _io?
<cr1901_modern> My rule of thumb is: "if it can be used as an I/O pin that connects to the outside world _and_ as a peripheral, treat it as a connector and add a default mapping in the platform file"
<cr1901_modern> I don't understand your question
<TD-Linux> think I got it sorted
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<TD-Linux> >Warning: Found one of those horrible `(synopsys|synthesis) translate_off' comments.
<rqou> lol
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<cr1901_modern> TD-Linux: The migen maintainer isn't about to change to `ifdef SYNTHESIS, which is standardized (first paragraph): https://github.com/m-labs/migen/pull/127#issuecomment-419768093
<cr1901_modern> I asked Clifford if he'd accept a feature to disable said warning, and was told no :). So we deal with yosys bitching in Migen.
<whitequark> if you write a patch to change this i'll merge it, because hot comments are bullshit.
<TD-Linux> this isn't too high on my priority list
<whitequark> the toolchains that don't have SYNTHESIS defined, if there are any, can just use a different path
<whitequark> that's to cr1901_modern
<TD-Linux> I can't figure out how to request subsignals from a platform
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: I can't test Altera; Vivado works, yosys works, and Diamond b/c like Vivado it uses Synopsys, also should work
<cr1901_modern> but sure, noted :)
<awygle> Diamond works.
<awygle> Uh I haven't tested LSE
<awygle> But diamond with synplify works
<whitequark> rqou: can you test if Altera frontend defines YSNTHESIS?
<cr1901_modern> Anyone who is targeting an FPGA/toolchain that doesn't support SYNTHESIS (old, retro stuff :)...) can simply "-DSYNTHESIS"
<cr1901_modern> Not that anyone besides me would try
<awygle> I mean rqou probably would. Does ISE work? Lots of S6s out there
<TD-Linux> not a fan of how I can assign mismatched signal types with .eq() and it still compiles :(
<cr1901_modern> You sometimes want that IME
<cr1901_modern> awygle: I can test ISE in a bit
<awygle> I can test quartus pro this evening if rqou doesn't do it first
<cr1901_modern> >awygle: Uh I haven't tested LSE
<cr1901_modern> I don't plan to support icecube or radiant :P
* awygle rants about radiant
<TD-Linux> cr1901_modern, I don't think you ever want to assign from a signal with subsignals to a single bit
<cr1901_modern> Oh I thought you meant assign signals of two different widths
<TD-Linux> the result currently is it just silently doesn't generate an assign
<awygle> oh BTW cr1901_modern, are you still planning to work on UL and Ultra support?
<cr1901_modern> TD-Linux: In any case you may wish to /join #m-labs and ask sb0 about it. Or file an issue. That doesn't sound right
<cr1901_modern> awygle: Yes, after current work is done
<awygle> cr1901_modern: cool :-)
<TD-Linux> yeah, I'll make a test case and an issue.
<cr1901_modern> awygle: Which, I'm unsure _exactly_ when that will be, but... lol, you know
<awygle> Yeah sure I get it
<awygle> I just saw somebody in /r/yosys asking about it
<cr1901_modern> awygle: Incidentally, that is why I bothered to reinstall icecube yesterday
<whitequark> TD-Linux: it's not really typed
<cr1901_modern> (Cosmic radiation bit flip?)
<awygle> Yup
<awygle> Get some ecc ram :-P
<whitequark> I could make it typed but it's probably easier to use like hardcaml or chisel
<TD-Linux> yeah once I finish this design I might try and do it in chisel too
<TD-Linux> but I wanted to try your tristate magics and the board files
<whitequark> TD-Linux: btw "the result currently is it just silently doesn't generate an assign" is probably a bug
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: If you (hypothetically) made Migen typed, could you still define connecting signals of different widths to each other w/o an error. Or would you need some helper function to "extend" the signal of shorter width?
<TD-Linux> cr1901_modern, you could still make all numbers the same type.
* cr1901_modern doesn't follow
<awygle> You could implement it either way basically
<cr1901_modern> TD-Linux: For the record (pun intended), I/Os with Subsignals are converted to the Record() type
<cr1901_modern> Are you saying "records and signals should be the same type"?
<TD-Linux> no I just mean numbers could be the same type regardless of bitwidth, but still distinct from Record()
<cr1901_modern> Oh I see
<cr1901_modern> And yea, Records _do_ have an eq() method, but I don't remember what it does. You typically use the connect() method or flatten() instead
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<cr1901_modern> connect, well, connects to Records together. flatten converts the record to a Signal() whose width is the entire Record
<TD-Linux> tada the world's simplest pc98 peripheral. will go try this now https://github.com/tdaede/cbus-joystick/blob/master/fpga/cbus_joystick.py
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<cr1901_modern> Reminds me of the start of an ISA bus game port in Migen :P
<cr1901_modern> TD-Linux: When do we get a Japari Park demo on FPGA?
<awygle> what *is* pc98?
<cr1901_modern> Not-a-PC-clone that uses x86
<cr1901_modern> it's sufficiently different that an OS written for the IBM PC port I/O won't work for the PC-98
<awygle> ah interesting. So it is x86 but all the other bits are weird so it still needs complex emulation or whatever?
<cr1901_modern> Something like that? Idk that much about it. They got all the good FM synths though
<TD-Linux> exactly. all the I/O, memory mapping, interrupts, etc are different, as are all the bios calls.
<cr1901_modern> (shots fired?)
<awygle> Have you done an FPGA recreation yet? :-P
<TD-Linux> no, that would be very complex, but possible.
<awygle> See now that's a cpu-on-fpga project I could get behind
<TD-Linux> notable things about it is that the most popular video mode is 640x400x16 (vs 320x200x256 on PC), and it has OPNA vs OPL on adlib
<TD-Linux> also it had the first 5 touhou games
<awygle> Is it still an Intel cpu? Which one?
<cr1901_modern> And about 10,000 visual novels that will never be preserved :(
<cr1901_modern> (Play YU-NO /plug)
<TD-Linux> I can't speak enough moon to play YU-NO on it
<cr1901_modern> So you play the Windoze version
<cr1901_modern> I'm just saying that it's been preserved and everyone should play it
<TD-Linux> I suppose I could still run that on the PC-98 :)
<whitequark> cr1901_modern: you'd need to extend
<TD-Linux> (Microsoft made a special port of Windows to PC-98)
<cr1901_modern> ahh
<TD-Linux> awygle, it started out with the NEC V30, which is an 8086 clone
<cr1901_modern> TD-Linux: and cool, though I think the Windows version requires XP
<TD-Linux> later models had 386 and 486s
<cr1901_modern> Look up Elf Classics on your favorite search engine
<awygle> ah that's more difficult then. I was hoping it was Next186 compatible
<cr1901_modern> and if you play it, tell me how you like it. I really can't describe it. Unless you won't play it. Then I'll spoil the ending in DM :P
<TD-Linux> awygle, I mean the x86 core on Next186 should be compatible
<TD-Linux> the vast majority of games run in real mode
<sorear> does nobody have a decent smallish 286+ ?
<awygle> Didn't 286 through 486 still add a bunch of stuff? I am not super up on this history I guess
<cr1901_modern> sorear: There's plex486
<cr1901_modern> errr that's not the name
<cr1901_modern> I don't remember the name T_T
<TD-Linux> awygle, yes but the baseline for games (PC-9801vx) only has a V30 (aka fast 8086) so most only target those instructions
<awygle> ao486?
<awygle> TD-Linux: oic
<cr1901_modern> yea that
<awygle> TIL about ao486, that's cool
<TD-Linux> also I never want to open vivado again so I hope this fits on a ecp5
<cr1901_modern> Unfortunately it's about 90,000 LUT4s
<cr1901_modern> though sound takes more than the processor itself (errr...)
<pie_> you know what would be ironic
<pie_> if you couldn't look at an electric company's outage map because power was out
<pie_> now I'm not saying that happened, but there's a hurricane and I can't load the outage map. :P
<awygle> Yeah I doubt it'd fit in an ecp5, gotta wait for a 7series reversing or do it yourself
<qu1j0t3> pie_: I don't think that's very far-fetched...
<awygle> I have had four conversations in three days that ended at "if only there was a 20% bigger ECP5"
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<sorear> ao486 is neat, i wonder how much it can be optimized…
<pie_> more hardware? humbug! smarter compilers!
<sorear> > It was a proof-of-concept project just to show myself that it was possible to do. I remember that on avarage the ao486 performs most of the x86 instructions in more than 10 cycles. I think that this is the main bottleneck in performace.
<sorear> so we could totally do super686soc
<sorear> although my current biases are closer to "opentransmeta"
<cr1901_modern> "super686soc's goals include being the fastest 686 in practice b/c it doesn't include Spectre vuln" :)
<pie_> qu1j0t3, in archive.org looks like they use some kind of bing map though i wonder if i can get the data endpoint and run it locallt
* pie_ pokes the html
<awygle> super686soc? wow i'm learning about so many softcores today
<awygle> oh that was a joke
<cr1901_modern> sorear has a tendency to make creative names for stuff
<cr1901_modern> like MeTooRISC
<awygle> is opentransmeta at all feasible?
<awygle> i feel like there's a lot missing there
<awygle> there's a band outside my window which is excellent except for the overly-enthusiastic trumpet player...
<sorear> i'm flattered, i usually think of myself as bad at naming things
<rqou> iirc one of the 龍芯 devices also had some special stuff for doing binary translation of x86?
<sorear> there was a thing at one of the previous riscv workshops trying to do an academic implementation of the transmeta dream (OoO->VLIW in software)
<rqou> yeah unfortunately sourcing CN/TW chips can also be somewhat tricky
<sorear> my goals are much more modest: programmable decode without trying to do any VLIW
<sorear> there are a few well-scoped bottlenecks in qemu and I have some ideas for ITLB/trace cache games that could mitigate
<sorear> + pipeline support for things like the parity flag
<sorear> http://home.deib.polimi.it/sami/architetture/godson.pdf has details, it's somewhat similar to what I'm messing with
<sorear> they're treating the indirect jump structure as a separate "CAM" while I want to merge it with the L1 ITLB
<sorear> but the most important and also easiest part is hardware support for updating EFLAGS after arithmetic instructions
<sorear> i guess someday I should do proper OSINT on crusoe and denver
<sorear> the stuff that remains problematic is stateful decoding - on x86, we could have problems with code that heavily uses 8/16 bit instructions as well as 32-bit instructions, or possibly related to vzeroupper; outside x86, register windows would be a real pain
<sorear> the qemu approach translates code once for each combination of relevant variables, but in these cases there is a polymorphism/symmetry; scalar code can be shared between xmm and ymm contexts, FP code ought to be shareable between all 8 TOP contexts
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<sorear> i may have been excessively optimistic about handling x87]
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<rqou> fyi digshadow and i had a discussion today and have come to a mutual understanding over issues that have happened recently. i retract previous statements disparaging symbiflow and symbioticeda. i will be poking mithro about this soon, and eventually there will also be a public statement on twitter
<whitequark> *finally*
<digshadow> I concur with rqou, apologize for things I've done that may have escalated things, and would like to see things get resolved / move forward
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<TD-Linux> yay, we're going to need that altera support for super686transmetasoc
<TD-Linux> hmm I just let the magic smoke out of a ch341a but it still works.
<rqou> uh, i don't think that will fit in 240 LEs :P
<rqou> unless you mean the projects in the pipeline
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<TD-Linux> I mean the future
<TD-Linux> are the max v's 5v tolerant?
<rqou> not exactly?
<rqou> they have some kind of programmable clamp diode with a resistor thingy
<rqou> it's designed specifically for use with PCI
<rqou> tbh i haven't looked into it
<rqou> the small parts don't have that feature
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<awygle> oh good
<awygle> and yes, hook a brother up with some cyclone 10 gx support
<awygle> :p
<awygle> rqou: can you check the SYNTHESIS thing from the backlog?
<rqou> what do you need checked exactly?
<awygle> just whether Quartus/Altera define SYNTHESIS when ... well, synthesizing
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<azonenberg_work> awygle: i normally do the opposite
<azonenberg_work> assume synthesis unless `ifdef XILINX_ISIM
<azonenberg_work> or similar
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: but that's not standard
<whitequark> it's for migen
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: yeah i define SIMULATION explicitly in my sim scripts
<azonenberg_work> or FORMAL for that
<rqou> ok, i am compiling the following:
<rqou> module maxvtest(output o);
<rqou> choke me
<rqou> `ifdef SYNTHESIS
<rqou> assign o=1;
<rqou> `endif
<rqou> endmodule
<rqou> no errors
<rqou> so it does not
<rqou> i assume this is a disappointment?
<rqou> awygle: ^
<cr1901_modern> SYNTHESIS should be defined during synthesis, it's in the Verilog spec
<cr1901_modern> looks like Quartus doesn't do it
<azonenberg_work> where?
<rqou> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<azonenberg_work> dont have the lrm handy
* cr1901_modern will look in his copy
<rqou> doesn't seem to be in my copy either
<awygle> rqou: thanks!
<awygle> I don't really care I just wanted to know lol
<rqou> i even followed autoconf tradition :P
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<awygle> Autoconf tradition does specify the fail case must always be "choke me"
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<cr1901_modern> Wow, what an insufferable POS pidgin's being today
<cr1901_modern> rqou: 1364.1, section 6.2
<awygle> Oh the synthesis spec. That makes sense.
<rqou> ah ok
<rqou> i don't have that one on hand
<awygle> rqou: which quartus was that?
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<rqou> Version 18.0.0 Build 614 04/24/2018 SJ Lite Edition
<awygle> Mk, cool.
<TD-Linux> clearly migen needs --tasteful and --tasteless options
<awygle> --chokeme --dontchokeme
<cr1901_modern> Well it doesn't really matter I guess; just force Quartus to define SYNTHESIS. It's not our fault they don't implement that part of the spec
<rqou> they probably overlooked it like me
<rqou> tbh i by far haven't read the verilog spec from beginning to end
<cr1901_modern> Actually, I don't even know if 1364.1 was even ratified. I just would suspect synthesis tools to implement it anyway, like *nix impls do w/ POSIX extended attrs
<rqou> i can barely code HDL lol
<azonenberg_work> awygle: autoconf --safeword=emacs chokeme
<rqou> lol
<rqou> too lewd
<awygle> It was ratified
<awygle> The VHDL equivalent never was
<awygle> Iirc
<rqou> i mean, the entire 1364 is now superseded :P
<awygle> Yep and sv doesn't have a synth standard
<rqou> from what i've heard, it can't :P
<rqou> i heard that each major vendor took their own extensions and all mixed it up to form systemverilog
<azonenberg_work> lolol
<azonenberg_work> well i was running into this the other day
<azonenberg_work> vivado supports sv interfaces
<azonenberg_work> but not arrays of them
<rqou> so now each vendor only supports their part of the SV spec and the easy part of the others
<azonenberg_work> sooo trying to create a soc with multiple nodes connected by interface'd buses is... hard :p
<rqou> lol
<rqou> i believe vhdl technically can do this
<rqou> good luck actually finding a tool that does it right
<azonenberg_work> lol
<azonenberg_work> unrelated, https://i.imgur.com/USxhAYd.jpg
<azonenberg_work> rqou: too much osha for you? :p
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> you can buy LOTO kits for those kinds of switches?
<azonenberg_work> Yes, and it makes sense in this case
<azonenberg_work> Circuit 3A (first floor lighting) contains stuff i wanted to energize briefly for testing
<azonenberg_work> in particular, the emergency light
<azonenberg_work> 3H (garage overhead lights, a switched leg off 3A) is incomplete and has wires dangling out of the ceiling
<rqou> oh wtf i just noticed the light
<rqou> why do you have that?
<azonenberg_work> If i'm decapping and the power goes out
<azonenberg_work> it'd be nice to safely put the beaker down...
<rqou> hmm i guess that makes sense
<rqou> i've never seen anybody bother with LOTO kits in a home though
<azonenberg_work> I actually considered moving the overhead lights to be on a UPS'd rail to ensure the lights dont even blip
<rqou> imho you're already way ahead of the game if you put red zipties on things that shouldn't be actuated
<azonenberg_work> It would be easy to do, just change the feeder to that box from circuit #3A to one of the UPS'd rails
<azonenberg_work> And with the tray right there it'd be easy to swap out
<azonenberg_work> Also https://i.imgur.com/0UY5QGw.jpg
<azonenberg_work> note the "UPS power" warning label :p
<azonenberg_work> (and the lockout for the breaker on the circuit i was working on)
<rqou> why?
<rqou> this is so unnecessary
<azonenberg_work> That whole panel will be UPS fed
<azonenberg_work> Seems reasonable to label it as such
<azonenberg_work> lots of electricians will assume flipping main service disconnect = everything off
<azonenberg_work> especially in a house
<rqou> oh the ups label makes sense
<rqou> i've never seen anybody use LOTO kits in a house though
<azonenberg_work> Oh
<rqou> as opposed to red zipties or red tape
<azonenberg_work> Because i can, mostly :p
<azonenberg_work> Same reason I'm putting the "non-permit confined space" sign on the attic access panel
<azonenberg_work> (it doesn't appear to meet the permit-required rules)
<rqou> wtf
<azonenberg_work> But its definitely an OSHA confined space, not enough room to stand up and no permanent stairs or ladder
<zkms> don't forget pipe labels azonenberg_work ;p
<rqou> i still want some obviously-joking pipe labels for things like "mana" or "potion" :P
<azonenberg_work> zkms: oh, like my laundry room?
<zkms> rqou: you can get custom-printed ones for p cheap
<rqou> i don't have exposed pipes to put them on
<azonenberg_work> oh i didnt include the pic of the sump pump drain, but rest assured that one is labeled too
<azonenberg_work> i havent crawled behind the dryer to put the "EXHAUST AIR" label on the vent yet
<zkms> good aesthetic
<rqou> huh, hot/cold water aren't conventionally different colors?
<azonenberg_work> rqou: the new ASME standards have green/white for all non-hazardous liquids and blue/white for air lines
<azonenberg_work> afaik
<azonenberg_work> I will be replacing the rubber hoses with steel braid in the future though
<azonenberg_work> The labels are friction fit, not adhesive, so i can move them
<azonenberg_work> Then the "WATER MAIN SHUTOFF" label isnt yet installed, that will go on the wall above the valve but there's no drywall there yet
<rqou> when will i see a small plastic tube labeled XeF2? :P
<azonenberg_work> Not for a while :p
<whitequark> its a solid
<azonenberg_work> That too
<azonenberg_work> white powder at STP
<rqou> you can turn it into a vapor :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: oh, did i mention i am putting an exit sign over the door in the lab?
<azonenberg_work> Again "because I can"
<rqou> a tritium exit sign?
<whitequark> rqou: i'm not actually sure you can
<whitequark> it's absurdly sensitive
<azonenberg_work> rqou: no, just LED and backup battery
<rqou> hmm, maybe only under high vacuum
<azonenberg_work> zkms: https://i.imgur.com/22LChGl.jpg this is a long shot of the mostly-finished half of the lab, seen from the unfinished side
<whitequark> *and* an extremely strong fluorinating agent
<whitequark> so you'd need nickel tubing
<whitequark> not plastic
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: not ptfe?
<azonenberg_work> The "finished" side just needs a bunch more wiring in the tray, sheetrock around the electrical panels, and the ESD epoxy floor
<rqou> hmm it definitely has a melting point
<rqou> wikipedia doesn't list a boiling point
<azonenberg_work> it probably decomposes first
<azonenberg_work> we're talking a noble gas compound, they're not exactly stable
<pie_> today I learned more of why wikipedia still remains a shitshow in some respects http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/rants/wikipedia-delete.html
<pie_> (article from 2006 but seems timeless)
<rqou> azonenberg_work: when do you get a ptfe and metal braid hose labeled "phosgene, remember to replace, plz no dupont"? :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: no
<azonenberg_work> :p
<rqou> no phosgene or no industrial accidents for you? :P
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: p sure fluorine leaks through PTFE
<whitequark> just like chlorine and bromine do
<azonenberg_work> oh so it wont attack it
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: nickel passivates in fluorine
<azonenberg_work> but it diffuses through
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> why do i even know this
<azonenberg_work> and i guess ptfe-coated anything is bad because it will diffuse through then attack the outer metal?
<rqou> weren't you failing at doing a bromination and/or make PCl5?
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: i'm surprised you havent found a reason to use ClF3 for something
<whitequark> not fluorination
<whitequark> hell no
<whitequark> i'm not touching that
<pie_> floluor
<rqou> whitequark: FOOF? :P
<rqou> "Things whitequark Won't Work With"
<azonenberg_work> Lol
<azonenberg_work> rqou: its a shorter list
<azonenberg_work> :p
<whitequark> fluorine either
<whitequark> but yes
<whitequark> shorter
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: hmm, how about some of those hexanitro compounds?
<azonenberg_work> lol
<whitequark> rqou: i was doing both
<whitequark> rqou: which is how i know
<whitequark> i guess?
<whitequark> about ptfe
<whitequark> not nickel
<azonenberg_work> you know, the ones that spontaneously detonate when the laser in a FTIR hits them
<rqou> did you ever get those reactions to work btw?
<pie_> azonenberg_work, gices a new meaning to "explodes if you as much as look at it"
<pie_> *gives
<azonenberg_work> lol
<whitequark> rqou: sort of
<whitequark> I made SCl2
<whitequark> which is a precursor
<whitequark> and I made PCl3/PCl5
<whitequark> as a mixture
<whitequark> but not pure and the process was very slow
<whitequark> and chlorine leaked fucking *everywhere*
<rqou> nilered managed to make PBr3/PBr5
<rqou> maybe that's easier?
<whitequark> I need the chlorinated compound
<rqou> i meant, maybe making the brominated one is easier than making the chlorinated one
<rqou> which is why nilered did it fairly easily
<whitequark> bromine is easier
<whitequark> because liquid phase
<rqou> aah
<whitequark> well among other things
<whitequark> like how do you get chlorine in gas phase and phosphorus in solid phase to react
<whitequark> red P of course, white P is hella toxic
<rqou> heh for bromine nilered just dropped the P into the bromine and it reacts :P
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> chlorine, too
<rqou> i guess that's much easier
<whitequark> it's mostly a matter of exposing all P
<whitequark> because chlorine is generated pretty slowly
<whitequark> since i dont want a ton of chlorine there at any one time
<rqou> ah that makes sense
<whitequark> also it's wet chlorine
<whitequark> which needs to be dried with H2SO4
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<TD-Linux> as someone from minnesota, dupont is a swear word
<whitequark> dupont is a swear word everywhere
<rqou> whitequark: did you ever get your uv-induced bromination to work?
<whitequark> rqou: nope
<whitequark> need a better UV source
<whitequark> and/or a non-glass glassware
<TD-Linux> 3M sells two kinds of polyamide tape, the one that licenses the Kapton™ name and the one that doesn't. the Kapton™ is 3x as expensive
<rqou> nurdrage did a similar chlorination "successfully"
<whitequark> what did he do
<rqou> using a giant UV led from aliexpress or something
<rqou> clipped to a spare intel heatsink
<TD-Linux> I tried getting some of the new really short wavelength UV leds from digikey
<whitequark> *huh*
<TD-Linux> sadly they are too inefficient and low power to really be useful
<whitequark> you dont need a lot for a free radical bromination
<whitequark> since its a chain reaction
<whitequark> rqou: can you summarize nurdrage's video
<whitequark> i dont like his voice
<TD-Linux> cool my pc98 powered blinky light works with migen
<rqou> nurdrage is chlorinating para-chlorotoluene
<rqou> if you mute him or whatever and watch the first minute or so he shows the apparatus
<rqou> at 1:28 you can see the LED
<whitequark> hm, that's an aromatic
<whitequark> aromatics chlorinate easier iirc
<rqou> the reaction starts producing soot due to combustion at around 3:21
<rqou> so nurdrage suggests adjusting the rate of chlorine generation and a different apparatus design to fix this
<whitequark> brominations are slower
<whitequark> so should be fine as is
<rqou> nmr is at 5:29
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<whitequark> thanks
<rqou> also in case you were curious about his pyrimethamine procedure the pathway is at 3:00 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kZi3J2S52E
<rqou> nmr of final product is at 8:36 btw (in chloroform-d)
<rqou> at 8:53 is the nmr in DMSO
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<TD-Linux> >the 0.1uF caps I bought 2 weeks ago on digikey are now on backorder
<TD-Linux> is the cap shortage real
<whitequark> it is extremely rea
<whitequark> *real
<whitequark> there were like 3 days between deciding on caps for glasgow and ordering
<whitequark> and half of them ran out
<azonenberg_work> yes i have had trouble sourcing parts lately too
<azonenberg_work> and i'm not even doing any big projects due to the construction
<azonenberg_work> i'm kinda afraid to look at the digikey cart for latentred
<azonenberg_work> half the stuff is probably unavailable
<whitequark> TD-Linux: and it's gonna persist for 3 years
<whitequark> at least
<pie_> damn mobile manufacturers trying to get people to buy new stuff every other month :P
<whitequark> that's a significant part of the problem
<TD-Linux> just gonna get my own clay and tinfoil
<pie_> whitequark, oh it is? damn
<whitequark> yes
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<pie_> well, it's always about growth, noone's really in it for the long run. i guess if you aren't agressive enough you'll just be knocked out of the game even if it would be better long term?
<pie_> inb4 multinationals are actually some abstract ponzi scheme
<whitequark> "infinite growth is the ideology of a cancer cell"
<rqou> but what if the cancer is so good it can turn into a new immortal cell like?
<whitequark> thats like, most cancers
<azonenberg_work> pie_: yeah this is one of the things i dont like about capitalism
<whitequark> they die because they fuck up angiogenesis
<whitequark> for example
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: yeah but most don't turn into HeLa
<whitequark> most cancers can propagate indefinitely in a petri dish
<whitequark> thats how we study them
<whitequark> hela is incredibly commonly used
<azonenberg_work> By accident? :p
<whitequark> hm?
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19722756
<whitequark> yeah I know that happens
<whitequark> but HeLa is used a lot intentionally
<whitequark> also
<whitequark> "cell line" is misleading
<whitequark> if you actually sequence "cell lines" you find out there's like dozens of cell types
<whitequark> with different sensitivity to chemotherapy agents
<whitequark> different number of chromosomes
<whitequark> and stuff
<rqou> wait, different numbers of chromosomes?
<rqou> how?
<whitequark> uh
<whitequark> that happens all the time
<whitequark> they split or fuse
<pie_> rqou, biology is a lot more complicated (cool) than high school made you think
<pie_> did you know theres like...triple stranded dna (sort of)
<whitequark> how do you think animals got different number of chromosomes in the first place
<pie_> ok maybe it wasnt triple stranded dna (cant remember the wiki article)
<pie_> cell biology i so cool, i need another lifetime lol
<whitequark> dna gets into weird contortions all the damn time
<whitequark> google "zinc finger"
<rqou> what about cells in a living thing (that aren't dividing)? aren't they all supposed to have the same number of chromosomes?
<whitequark> no
<whitequark> sperm and eggs has half of them :p
<rqou> lol
<pie_> "close 'nuff" :P
<rqou> ok, somatic cells
<pie_> i wonder how often you jsut get broken cells when they split
<pie_> iirc i read somewhere that you get cancer cells all the time they just...somehow dont end up messing things up and the immune system can also deal with them or something
<whitequark> pie_: a buncha time
<whitequark> cells are pretty good at suiciding when that happens
<whitequark> also fixing things before dividing
<whitequark> google "checkpoint"
<pie_> yeah, sounds like it
<pie_> oh huh, havent heard of that
<whitequark> pie_: immune system can deal with cancer
<whitequark> also google "CAR-T"
<pie_> meh, my mind is in other places
* pie_ loves cell bio, can also never remember anything ++
<rqou> so why can't we just activate telomerase and live forever?
<pie_> *I mean I'm doing other things righ tnow
<whitequark> rqou: cuz you'll get cancer
<whitequark> senescence isn't just telomeres
<whitequark> it's more complex
<whitequark> and likely programmed
<whitequark> sec
<rqou> why don't the cancer defenses continue to work?
<pie_> probably statistics?
<pie_> my wild guess is theres cancer cells the immune system cant recognize
<whitequark> rqou: telomeres are one of them
<whitequark> rqou: yes
<pie_> also this looks like it might be really cool http://book.bionumbers.org/
<pie_> not on libgen though and i dont have the money to buy it right now
<pie_> looks like its got a full draft up
<pie_> dunno how different drafts usually end up from real thing
<whitequark> rqou: related:http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/16/7/1499
<pie_> whitequark, btw you always have a bunch of cool bio shit retweeted
<pie_> dumb question, where do you get it? or do you just subscribe to people on twitter and im dumb for not having a twitter :P
<whitequark> pie_: i sometimes go search pubmed when i'm wondering about something
<pie_> right but usually it seems to be things i dont know how i'd even remotely run across
<pie_> eh, well that's how knowledge works i guess
<pie_> eh I guess I'm just wanting to avoid the tail end of sturgeon's law
<pie_> 90% of my time is probably spent on crap
* pie_ mumbles something about quality and gets back to work
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<Ultrasauce> dammit whitequark your random research trivia is virulent
<whitequark> precisely
<Ultrasauce> what are we going to do when we finally get around to taking a big ol' scoop of jupiter
<Ultrasauce> and it's full of those
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<sorear> rqou: mature erythocytes have 0
<sorear> rqou: but yes, "healthy" cells have a specific type-specific number of chromosomes, it's just cancer being cancer
<sorear> although it's not that important, you can have 45 or 47 chromosomes in a dozen ways without immediately fatal effects
<sorear> i'm also quite happy to hear that reconciliation is forthcoming
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<Bike> is triple standard supposed to be triple stranded
<Bike> oh, that was me misreading. nice
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<sorear> triple standard DNA, kind of like typeC altmodes
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<Bike> i guess it could be hexaploidy
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<whitequark> sorear: *twitch*
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<rqou> "a number of VLAs in the [Linux] kernel are not actually variable in length and were never meant to be seen as such by the compiler"
<rqou> brilliant
<awygle> lmao
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<azonenberg_work> rqou: https://i.imgur.com/ctN7TW5.jpg am i doing it right?
<rqou> so unnecessary
<gruetzkopf> do the US have the concept of a room ony accessible to to electrically qualified people (over here it's "Elektrischer Betriebsraum")?
<Bike> there's "electrical rooms"
<rqou> depending on the size of the building there may only be a general "utility room" that contains electrical, telecom, and associated equipment like demarcs and switches/routers/firewalls
<rqou> so not "only accessible to electrically qualified people"
<awygle> woo my punch down thingy arrived
<awygle> time to learn how to punch down
<awygle> ... wait
<whitequark> um
<gruetzkopf> i've terminated a LOT of telco wiring on krone LSA+ blocks
<rqou> gruetzkopf: but all of this is basically only for commercial buildings. houses are usually yolo with all the "utility stuff" somewhere in the garage/basement
<gruetzkopf> those are the most common here outside of CO settings
<gruetzkopf> yeah houses are YOLO here too
<TAL> (i think those are called IDCs in english speaking countries)
<rqou> i wonder if azonenberg_work has yellow caution tape near his electrical breaker panel where you're not allowed to store things
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i actually will, but it's not going to be installed until the ESD epoxy floor is down
<gruetzkopf> TAL: yes, but there are many more types of IDC blocks
<Bike> the building i work in has a designated command center for firefighters. seems neat. (it's always locked tho.)
<azonenberg_work> And the space will be pretty clearly outlined by physical configuration
<azonenberg_work> rqou: basically i'm going to have, starting from the corner
<rqou> heh, meanwhile my parents' house explicitly has the electrical panel obstructed
<azonenberg_work> breaker panel and access to back side of UPS rack
<azonenberg_work> UPS rack
<azonenberg_work> breaker panel, access to front of UPS rack, access to front of data rack
<azonenberg_work> Data rack
<azonenberg_work> Access to back of data rack
<gruetzkopf> like quante SID-C or the Bundesport HV-73 or us 66 blocks or us 110 blocks
<azonenberg_work> Storage
<rqou> but don't worry, it just has a big easily-removable box of paper towels :P
<gruetzkopf> *Bundespost
<azonenberg_work> rqou: So basically the clear working space is the gap between racks, or rack and wall
<azonenberg_work> i'm overlapping the 36" space on as many pieces of equipment as i can to keep things densely packed
<rqou> so not like a stereotypical school (or retail store :P ) that has all sorts of crap blocking the panel?
<rqou> or apparently another common one is that the keepout space around the panel is clear because there is scary yellow tape, but then that cleared region is subsequently 100% surrounded and obstructed by storage :P :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: you saw the pic i took of the electrical panel at... MSP? ORD? i forget which
<rqou> yeah
<azonenberg_work> that had a rack of merchandise for sale voer it
<azonenberg_work> And yes i have seen that too
<rqou> i was specifically thinking of that
<azonenberg_work> I wont have that problem in my lab because the clear space is adjacent to the hallway
<azonenberg_work> Basically, that half of the lab is about a ten foot wide space
<gruetzkopf> the main panel in our house is in the main hallway
<azonenberg_work> You'll have ~3 feet of racks, storage cabinets, and working space to access the racks and electrical panels
<azonenberg_work> Then ~4 feet of hallway and seating area
<azonenberg_work> and ~3 feet of workbenches against the far wall
<gruetzkopf> the gruetzkopf panel is exactly above it (one floor up)
<azonenberg_work> So it's not really possible to obstruct the working space while not also blocking the hallway
<azonenberg_work> This is by design, i'm trying to use as much floor space as possible while still having safe pathways to move around
<rqou> you underestimate my ability to be disorganized :P
<azonenberg_work> This is also not your lab
<rqou> i assume you don't have the same problem? :P
<azonenberg_work> I tend to have places I don't go frequently become full of crap because i never see the mess and get bothered by it
<azonenberg_work> whereas spaces i work in are pristine
<rqou> oh right you have a wife, can't be disorganized :P
<azonenberg_work> So like, stuff will build up in the kitchen until she gets annoyed and does something about it
<azonenberg_work> the guest room downstairs at the rental was always full of stuff
<azonenberg_work> But my desk was pretty spotless except for the sea of devkits
<rqou> all of my workspaces tend to be disasters
<azonenberg_work> one of the reasons the rental was as disorganized as it was (by my standards) was that we couldn't mount shelving to the walls
<azonenberg_work> and the free-standing shelving was pretty awful
<azonenberg_work> At the new place i am going to have a zillion of these https://www.uline.com/BL_3872/Storage-Cabinets on every unused bit of wall space in the lab, office, and sar room
<rqou> how much are those?
<azonenberg_work> maybe not that exact model but something similar (as in, metal cabinet with solid shelves, doors, and ability to be bolted to a wall so it wont tip over during a small earthquake)
<rqou> oh wait it does have prices
<azonenberg_work> Yeah they're not cheap compared to the ones from e.g. Staples but if you buy industrial grade stuff it usually tends to last
<rqou> i dislike cabinets though
<rqou> i prefer freestanding wire shelves
<azonenberg_work> next time you visit you can have mine
<rqou> not really earthquake-safe though
<azonenberg_work> lol
<azonenberg_work> i also like having doors to keep things from getting knocked over if you brush against it while holding stuff
<azonenberg_work> etc
<gruetzkopf> one of my cabinets is hiding out in the row of racks
<rqou> this also reminds me that I really really need to buy some acid/flammables cabinets
<rqou> rather than "yolo it's already on the floor, we accept the risk" :P
<azonenberg_work> yes, i have those already, but i want to put them in more proper locations than "on the floor surrounded by cardboard boxes of who knows what"
<azonenberg_work> This new lab is going to be done properly even if it costs me a few tens of $K of supplies
<azonenberg_work> Which it will
<TAL> why not go the extra route and buy "fireproof" ones, prob. more like resilient against it
<rqou> btw azonenberg_work how do you feel about "we paid for a pentest because Compliance(TM), we accept the risks of all the findings"? :P
<azonenberg_work> TAL: my flammables cabinets is a double walled fire-resistant steel box
<azonenberg_work> with an insulated airgap between the walls and flash arrestors on the air vents
<azonenberg_work> To keep fumes from building up inside but also ensuring that any ignited vapors wont flash back and light off the bulk stockpile of stuff
<azonenberg_work> it's not approved for OSHA flammable-storage-required locations because the door isnt equipped with a fusible link to close it automatically above a certain temperature
<azonenberg_work> But for storage of less than i think... 25? gallons you don't legally need one of these
<azonenberg_work> so i just manually close the door any time i'm not actively using it
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<TAL> yep, but they usually only 50-100 bucks more and tend to have better doors and stuff; also quite cheap insurance for valuables
<rqou> brb gifting azonenberg_work 26 gallons of UDMH
<TAL> (one of the great part of fire regulation is that you might get those for free/cheap because those server room/utility rooms are required to have those, at least with my local fire regulation
<azonenberg_work> TAL: mine is something similar to the "countertop" model here, 4 gal capacity https://www.uline.com/BL_3911/Flammable-Storage-Cabinets
<azonenberg_work> And such restrictions normally only apply to commercial buildings
<azonenberg_work> the things you can get away with in a private residence are beyond belief to someone mostly familiar with commercial codes
<azonenberg_work> So i am trying to build this lab ~80% of the way to commercial standards
<azonenberg_work> omitting the most expensive items that dont provide a significant benefit in this situation
<gruetzkopf> i've been involved in fixing up a cleanroom for qualification for pharma production
<gruetzkopf> surprisingly cGMP (FDA) and EU-GMP don't conflict that much
<TAL> ya, but those are the real deal, i meant more like simple metal cabinets which tend to have better doors/locking, are double-walled and usually the same size, capacity and tend to go only for 50-100 bucks more
<azonenberg_work> TAL: oh
<azonenberg_work> Yeah these are actual osha flammable cabinets
<azonenberg_work> oh you meant the general storage cabinets
<azonenberg_work> No, i dont need fireproof for most of that stuff
<TAL> more like that, double walled/insulated door
<azonenberg_work> if i do anything for fireproofing it will be installation of a sprinkler system
<azonenberg_work> i want to do an Inergen system down the road in the lab
<azonenberg_work> Couldn't afford it during the initial build-out
<TAL> interesting stuff
<gruetzkopf> say.. is it easier for you to adopt a german citizen or a UK citizen :P :D
<TAL> never head of it, wonder why they don't use that stuff in trains
<TAL> (which tend to be run 24/7 for their water based fire-extinguishers)
<azonenberg_work> TAL: it needs to be used in a confined space with a known volume
<gruetzkopf> electrical cabinets of trains are usually just that
<TAL> passenger cars are pretty much a confined space with a known volume, in fact they're sold by it
<azonenberg_work> Hmm maybe not airtight enough? or too airtight?
<azonenberg_work> Basically you're trying to reach a delicate balance where the O2 level isnt enough to support combustion but is high enough to survive breathing for a while
<TAL> depends on the type of train, HST *need* to be aritight
<TAL> *airtight
<azonenberg_work> you need the ability to vent overpressure out
<azonenberg_work> But not have too much circulation after the gas dump is complete
<gruetzkopf> their HVAC systems can do that
<azonenberg_work> Yeah i dont know
<azonenberg_work> To me, it looked like a really nice system because it was a clean agent that was safe for humans in the affected area
<azonenberg_work> and didnt obstruct vision
<azonenberg_work> CO2 is clean but will kill you
<azonenberg_work> and FM-200, Novec, etc are clean and wont directly hurt humans but a) produce HF gas upon heating (not normally a huge problem but something to be aware of, it did cause some fatalities in Iraq when humvees took RPG hits to the fire extinguisher bottle and the whole cylinder of agent got superheated by the warhead)
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<TAL> how often do you need to replace the bottles? or what is the lifetime of this mixture
<azonenberg_work> and b) upon release they get very cold which flash-condenses water vapor out of the air into a dense cloud
<azonenberg_work> which destroys visibility and makes escaping difficult
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<azonenberg_work> They do cost less than inergen though, so i might talk to a pro installer and get some feedback
<azonenberg_work> Because although inergen is a cheaper agent you need a lot more of it
<azonenberg_work> more (expensive) solenoid valves, gas bottles, etc
<azonenberg_work> its high pressure compressed gas, the fluorinated agents are normally stored as liquids so much denser
<azonenberg_work> and inergen you have to fill like half the room while the fluorinated agents only get a couple percent
<azonenberg_work> TAL: not sure about the fluorinated agents but inergen is literally air sans oxygen
<azonenberg_work> spiked with a bit of CO2 to enhance respiratory effort
<azonenberg_work> (i.e.e trigger the suffocation reflex and make you breathe more to compensate for the decreased oxygen level)
<azonenberg_work> i think its basically a waste product of making LOX
<azonenberg_work> Pressure vessels in general need to be hydro tested every... 5? years
<azonenberg_work> but the agent itself would still be good
<sorear> "4% CO2" "does not affect the central nervous system"
<azonenberg_work> sorear: Keep in mind this isn't something you would want to stay in for an extended time period
<sorear> isn't breathing air with that much CO2 bad for you
<azonenberg_work> it's intended to not cause fatal or incapacitating results during the time it takes you to vacate the premises
<azonenberg_work> As opposed to a pure CO2 purge system where one breath and you're on the floor
<azonenberg_work> this will let you keep going long enough to exit
<azonenberg_work> I can imagine there might be issues if you stayed in the area for a long time
<azonenberg_work> But if the place is on fire, you will really want to GTFO anyway
<azonenberg_work> a bit of extra CO2 is the least of your worries
<zkms> pure N2 isworsethanpureCO2becausehypercapniaismoredetectablethanhypoxia
<zkms> myspacebarisdying
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<azonenberg_work> zkms: lol
<azonenberg_work> And yes, but both are bad if there's no O2
<sorear> the difficult part of any x86 project will be turning the intel and amd manuals into something which can be used for verification
<rqou> i thought it's "if Windows boots and Doom runs, you're good" :P
<sorear> i'm sure somebody is optimizing for "first to market" right now
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<azonenberg_work> sorear: is somebody working on a foss x86?
<azonenberg_work> or a non-intel/amd?
<sorear> azonenberg_work: it was discussed a bit last night and my mind is still on the subject
<sorear> re. non-foss non-intel/amd i would be quite surprised if not, everything required by windows 10 userspace except cmpxchg16b was described in non-NDA documentation in mid 2000
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<awygle> sorear: by verification are you proposing formal verification? a la clifford's risc-v work?
<sorear> awygle: i'm leaving that option open
<sorear> but not necessarily, any kind of non-integration testing is great
<awygle> sure, definitely
<rqou> sorear: Vortex86 :P
<TD-Linux> you could test against just dosbox or pcemu instead
<TD-Linux> I would trust then more than actual intel documentation
<pie_> huh thats an idea
<rqou> hmm just a thought: someone should *) find a Vortex86 board *) run sandsifter against it
<awygle> is sandsifter that "fuzz the instruction space" project?
<qu1j0t3> yes
<sorear> oh, vortex is the old RiseRiseRise
<sorear> also I’d add a sandsifter undetectable backdoor or three just on principle
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<awygle> can i git cherry-pick a remote commit, i wonder...?
<whitequark> I think sort of
<whitequark> but it's annoying to do
<sorear> yes? it’s basically just show+am
<awygle> .. "am"?
<sorear> git-am
<sorear> I think that’s a real command
<awygle> oh it is
<awygle> "apply a series of patches from a mailbox"
<awygle> which i guess is useful for the kernel and nobody else lol
<sorear> It’s the opposite of format-patch — turns text patches into commits
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<awygle> i was able to just add the remote, fetch it, and then do whatever, which is fine with me
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: SWD?
<awygle> oh hello glasgow pcbs
<whitequark> niiiiiice
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: working on it while doing other stuff
<azonenberg_work> nothing push-ready yet
<azonenberg_work> Doing $DAYJOB stuff right now
<whitequark> awygle: btw
<whitequark> have you even used revA? :p
<awygle> whitequark: only for development testing lol
<awygle> nothing real
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<awygle> oh i tried to use it to program smolfpga
<awygle> but the board was broken
<awygle> due to too much solder mask expansion causing shorts
<TD-Linux> my new pcbway boards have significantly less expansion than the oshpark ones
<TD-Linux> in fact, pretty much everything was better except for HASL instead of ENIG, and slightly worse silkscreen
<awygle> well in this case it was my fault, i specced it wrong due to unfamiliarity with kicad
<awygle> it was my first kicad board
<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: how much expansion do you use?
<azonenberg_work> i spec my boards for 50um expansio nby default
<awygle> which spoils my "no unrecoverable bugs on first revisions" record which is a bummer
<awygle> but it had to happen sometime
<azonenberg_work> Yeah i had a long streak of bugs when i was starting out
<azonenberg_work> then i got better at rework
<azonenberg_work> and for the last couple years i have almost never had unrecoverable bugs
<azonenberg_work> i had one or two that were mechanically totally busted, on trivial adapters, and elected to respin instead of fixing
<azonenberg_work> But i could have reworked if i really wanted to
<azonenberg_work> I have, however, had MANY bugs requiring rework :p
<awygle> i just have had really good first revs ever since my first board (which was a disaster). later revs have been for improved functionality rather than for function. up to smolfpga and not counting the first board i'd never had a worse bug than "change the BOM"
<azonenberg_work> And then stuff like the starshipraider io cell
<azonenberg_work> Which were prototypes i expected to respin
<TD-Linux> azonenberg_work, 0.2mm
<azonenberg_work> Thats huge
<azonenberg_work> i routinely have 0.5mm qfp with webs between pads
<TD-Linux> yeah this isn't enough for webs
<TD-Linux> I will try 0.05 next time
<TD-Linux> *webs on vqfp
<awygle> i often find that cheap vendors just go "na no webs for you"
<awygle> regardless of what you spec
<azonenberg_work> Yeah i have seen that and i hate it
<azonenberg_work> (one reason i dont use cheap fabs lol)
<azonenberg_work> awygle: btw re your oversized webs
<TD-Linux> I'm still weirded out by kicad units in mm by default
<azonenberg_work> Did you miss that during post-layout gerber review?
<azonenberg_work> Or did you not do a review?
<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: i find metric makes a lot more sense for pcbs because most modern components have lead pitches in mm
<azonenberg_work> So i do all of my designs in metric
<pie_> whats a web
<azonenberg_work> it takes me a minute to remember that a 5 mil trace is 125 um
<TD-Linux> yeah, I've been doing all my kicad ones in metric, so slowly getting used to it
<azonenberg_work> pie_: the little sliver of soldermask between adjacent pins on a tqfp or something
<pie_> oh
<TD-Linux> in my oshpark case it wasn't visible when I looked at the gerbers but was visible on oshpark's tools so it was my fault https://644db4de3505c40a0444-327723bce298e3ff5813fb42baeefbaa.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/c367067d5d07f1d3fd8cd73b32c54a8e.png
<TD-Linux> actually I should go back and look at the gerbers, I could have mixed up mask and paste layers or something
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<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: yeah my standard policy is to do a gerber signoff check after everything else is done
<azonenberg_work> just to look for little things like that, or silkscreen text on component pads
<azonenberg_work> or similar
<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: btw do you use my design review checklist?
<TD-Linux> don't know of it
<azonenberg_work> one for sch and one for layout, focusing mostly on high speed digital
<azonenberg_work> Lessons from the school of hard knocks :p
<azonenberg_work> Since i started doing a formal signoff review on every board before manufacture my rate of first-round respins or even "needs rework" level bugs has gone waaay down
<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: And i'm trying to get more people to use it, both as a service to the greater engineering community and because I'm hoping they'll contribute new suggestions for the list
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<awygle> azonenberg_work: I didn't check the Gerbers. I did that board in 4 hours total. Ah well.
<azonenberg_work> awygle: yeah i've had boards like that in the past too
<azonenberg_work> Very often they ended badly :P
<azonenberg_work> I've learned to slow down
<TD-Linux> one thing that helped when going altium -> kicad was that I started using kicad's footprint library and it's better than my hand-drawn altium ones
<gruetzkopf> on my current board set i did design review while explaining it to our civil engineer
<awygle> TD-Linux: thanks to whitequark (or, alternately, whitequark is to blame) I've been up streaming every footprint and component I have been making in kicad
<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: i actually do the opposite, i use my own footprints exclusively
<azonenberg_work> Mostly because i really am not a fan of the new IPC style footprints etc
<azonenberg_work> But also because i got burned badly on previous kicad footprints and now i no longer trust third party libraries, period
<TD-Linux> azonenberg_work, I had that policy ingrained into me when I learned altium, "don't use other people's footprints, they are weird and can be wrong"
<TD-Linux> but then I learned that I'm more likely to make a mistake drawing a footprint than use someone else's already working one
<awygle> Trust but verify. If nobody uses upstream footprints or contributes them we'll all be fussing with footprints for all time which is a ridiculous waste of human time and attention
<TD-Linux> now that you mention it I'll upstream the (few) footprints I make
<awygle> :-D
<TD-Linux> is the snapeda license compatible with the kicad library license
<TD-Linux> they are both CC-BY SA 4.0 with an exception
<azonenberg_work> awygle: well theres a few problems with that approach
<azonenberg_work> first, verification takes more time than designing in many cases
<azonenberg_work> so most of the work has to be repeated
<azonenberg_work> second, as mentioned above, i disagree with a lot of the kicad library and IPC design choices
<awygle> azonenberg_work: I understand your position
<whitequark> i disagree with most of the python design choices
<awygle> TD-Linux: I don't know
<whitequark> glasgow still uses python
<awygle> Good question
<whitequark> hell, i still contribute to jtaghal
<azonenberg_work> So what I do is design the footprint off the datasheet, sanity check as much as i can
<awygle> Lmao
<azonenberg_work> Stick a step model of the part on there if i can find one
<awygle> whitequark: not a jtaghal fan either?
<whitequark> awygle: no, not a C++ fan
<whitequark> jtaghal is fine
<azonenberg_work> Then go back and review the whole thing again prior to layout
<TD-Linux> I just stopped really caring about aesthetics of my symbols at some point
<awygle> whitequark: ah okay
<azonenberg_work> So i rarely if ever have footprint bugs these days
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: the chief benefit here is that as time passes, the amount of footprint bugs in kicad libraries shrinks
<whitequark> and i had footprint bugs that passed verification
<whitequark> both mine and awygle's
<whitequark> so verification is not a panacea
<awygle> yeah remember the magnetics bug you had like a month ago? lol
<whitequark> magnetics?
<whitequark> oh yeah
<awygle> That's not my primary motivation but it's definitely good
<awygle> whitequark: azonenberg on the characterization board
<azonenberg_work> that wasnt a footprint bug, it was a sch symbol bug
<awygle> Potato potato
<azonenberg_work> But it was also not a part in the kicad libary
<awygle> You're missing my point but it's not worth arguing because we have different goals *shrug*
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: if you submitted it upstream, no one else using the same part would have this bug
<whitequark> or other bugs once you prove the fp
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: no, if i submitted it upstream they wouldn't accept the PR
<azonenberg_work> because i didn't do it to IPC conventions
<azonenberg_work> And i refuse to do that :)
<whitequark> well yes, this is kinda selfish
<whitequark> reducing the global waste of time spent in EDA >> slightly nicer silk
<awygle> like I said different goals
<awygle> azonenberg_work wants a characterization board, I want to live in a world where nobody has to make EDA components
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: basically the same thing as me rewriting jtaghal in python because i don't like c++
<whitequark> we both end up worse
<whitequark> off
<whitequark> this isn't exactly fatal but it is what motivates me to a large extent
<awygle> whitequark: can you expand that? I think I know what you mean but don't want to assume. What motivates you?
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<whitequark> eda communism
<whitequark> lol
<awygle> lmao yes
<azonenberg_work> in particular the ipc pin 1 markings i just find extremely annoying and i cant explain why
<awygle> So do I but I get over it lol
<azonenberg_work> I also use silk under the component in some cases
<azonenberg_work> Since i tend to do high-density designs and silk outside the component takes up space
<azonenberg_work> In fact many of my smaller components have a single dot for pin 1 and thats it
<azonenberg_work> and most of my passive symbols have no pin1 marker at all
<awygle> Entirely unrelated, has anybody used Rhino 3D?
<azonenberg_work> or silkscreen
<azonenberg_work> I do have diode polarity markers but its a single line under the component body so it doesnt block space
<awygle> I'm getting seriously Baader-Meinhof'd about it
<qu1j0t3> i can never remember what that verb means even though I know of Baader and Meinhof
<qu1j0t3> don't mind if it gets retired as a verb tbpf
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: And i wouldn't consider it "selfish" so much as goals that are somewhat aligned but are not the same by any stretch
<awygle> qu1j0t3: it's the one where you hear about something and then it's suddenly everywhere
<TD-Linux> never used rhino3d but it's ooooooooold iirc