<rqou> just watched the dc26 talk by the lavabit guy about tamperproofing a server
<rqou> unfortunately it doesn't seem to be all that good
<rqou> feels really hacky and ad-hoc
<awygle> ~*~technology~*~
<felix_> finally got a new trace; updated the file at the old url
<felix_> the protocol decoder still doesn't like it; probably my very improvised analog frontend is too bad
<felix_> oh and sometimes pulseview doesn't crash during the recording, but when i add a protocol decoder
<whitequark> still doesn't look right :/
<felix_> meh. then probably the improvised frontend doesn't work (i expected that the baud rate is maybe 100khz though...)
<whitequark> it's over 300 kbps
<whitequark> 50 mhz is because the PD decoder is glitchy on smaller rates, not sure why
<felix_> https://i.imgur.com/xmYmW7Q.jpg is my current setup... (only put that on the closed laptop for the picture)
<whitequark> what comparator?
<felix_> a lm324n from st
<felix_> signal on the non-inverting input, reference on the inverting one
<whitequark> 1 MHz...
<felix_> yeah, a proper comparator would be much better, but i only found that opamp. but plenty of them...
<whitequark> I'm using an attiny as a comparator
<whitequark> have one?
<whitequark> 1 MHz probably not enough
<whitequark> actually not enough for sure
<felix_> uh, i'm not sure if i have any attiny left that isn't in a qfn pckage
<gruetzkopf> should be portable to most 8bit avr?
<whitequark> basically yes
<whitequark> but i have assembly for 13a already
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> did anybody here know that faxes can have color?
<Bike> no, but it doesn't seem surprising?
<rqou> guess how it works
<felix_> not before the defcon talk
<rqou> it sends a JPEG file
<Bike> nice
<rqou> oh lolol the team also stuck EternalBlue into their exploit fax
<awygle> >> "exploit fax"
<awygle> that's upsetting just conceptually
<whitequark> wtf is exploit fax
<rqou> oh, this research team managed to get arbitrary code exec on an hp all-in-one print/scan/fax machine by sending a fax to it
<Bike> through a jpeg, not postscript or whatever? neat
<rqou> through a jpeg with an oversized DCT(?) table
<awygle> fuckin hell, so many things about that are wrong
<Bike> discrete cosine transform?
<rqou> which is then wrapped up in all the fax/modem junk to finally be sent over a phone line
<awygle> that is what jpegs use yes
<Bike> black faxes just weren't enough, huh.
<rqou> so yeah tldr you can probably wardial people and drop eternalblue into their internal networks
<Bike> i wonder if there's a patching infrastructure for fax machines...
<rqou> yeah, you can update the firmware
<rqou> they talked about that too
<rqou> it comes in a PCL file
<rqou> and you print it
<awygle> _what_
<whitequark> LOL
<Bike> you mean you like, send the command file to a printer, and that upgrades the printer
<Bike> not that it actually produces a piece of paper with ink corresponding to the firmware
<Bike> right?
<rqou> yeah
<Bike> juuuuust checkin.
<gruetzkopf> rqou: look up "group 4 fax"
<pie_> LOL
<gruetzkopf> one of the great things voip killed
<gruetzkopf> and firmware-update-via-word-document is a well-known technique
<rqou> can we just stop using shitty technologies?
<Bike> yeah, i mean, if you have one control language already, why add another one just for firmware updates
<pie_> i dont seen anything *inherently* wrong with updating-via-print?
<rqou> yeah i guess it's kinda ok
<pie_> i mean sure it sounds funny :D
<Bike> i mean if you can fax someone a firmware update that might be an issue, but jpegs seem okay other than the exploit deal.
<whitequark> so lets say i send your company an invoice
<rqou> the LUFA guy even did it as a proof of concept
<pie_> well youd hope it takes signed updates, but eh
<rqou> no you can't fax the firmware update
<pie_> whitequark, hmmmm
<rqou> has to come from the PCL "printer" side
<whitequark> nono
<whitequark> by email
<whitequark> and they print it
<pie_> sounds like some dank-ass social engineering material
<awygle> in-band signaling in general just kind of icky
<pie_> (apply xkcd hyphen migration)
<gruetzkopf> and it changes the printer fw to always print a digit more on my invoices total
<Bike> advanced move: doing legit contract work, sending an invoice, and choosing the prices to make shellcode
<pie_> gruetzkopf, you mean less
<pie_> nevermind
<rqou> gruetzkopf: nah, you just have to use JBIG compression for that :P
<gruetzkopf> that was a fun c3 talk
<pie_> link?
<rqou> also it needs special PCL commands to update firmware
<gruetzkopf> "don't trust a scan you didn't falsify yourself"
<rqou> i don't think you can easily put it in a PDF
<gruetzkopf> other printers to PS
<gruetzkopf> *do
<gruetzkopf> pie_: there's the german c3 talk, he also gave it in english a while later. choose one?
<pie_> gruetzkopf, subtitels work
<pie_> *subtitles would be fine for me
<pie_> thx
<gruetzkopf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0O6UXrOZJo english version from froscon2015
<felix_> dug through my box of project leftovers; didn't have any avrs or fast comparators in there. can have a look tomorrow if there are some avrs left at the local hackerspace; iirc i dropped maybe 100 avrs there a while ago
<felix_> or just use an fpga board with lvds input buffers...
<felix_> anyway, i really should go home now; already 2h later than i thought
<pie_> rqou, source for this fax thing?
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<pie_> thx \o/
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<sorear> position: firmware updates you scan would be more fun
<pie_> for some value of fun xD
<whitequark> sorear: i've heard you can boot from a scsi scanner
<whitequark> havent verified personally
<pie_> truecrypt boot sector in a book
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<whitequark> hm wheres azonenberg
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* pie_ goes to check behing the 1990's under construction gifs
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<rqou> whitequark why is your cat so damn cute? :P https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnqfVotWsAAQVYN.jpg
<rqou> woot new nurdrage and new clickspring
<whitequark> rqou: not my cat technically
<whitequark> cats are their own
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: lol
<azonenberg_work> also, i gave up and bit the bullet
<azonenberg_work> Bought a copy of ASME B107.4
<azonenberg_work> "Driving and Spindle Ends for Portable Hand, Impact, Air and Electric Tools (Percussion Tools Excluded)"
<azonenberg_work> $40 for a DRM'd PDF
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> crack and sci-hub it? :P
<azonenberg_work> i couldnt find the mechanical drawing i needed anywhere
<azonenberg_work> But now i have dimensions for standard hex socket drives
<rqou> post a solvespace file?
<rqou> dimensions aren't copyrightable :P
<azonenberg_work> I'm not going to crack it or scihub it, but i will be sharing the SLVS for my particular tool
<rqou> seriously how is the clickspring guy so good at making things entirely by hand with no cnc at all?
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: so question for you
<azonenberg_work> re solvespace
<azonenberg_work> I have a hexagonal shaft that i made by extruding a 2D sketch along an axis
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: my contact says he'll be able to look at this monday and then quote
<azonenberg_work> I want to make a toroidal cutout in it
<azonenberg_work> see right side of the part
<azonenberg_work> How would i do that?
<azonenberg_work> I'm thinking create a plane X distance from the end of the shank
<azonenberg_work> then another perpendicular plane containing a circle
<azonenberg_work> rotate that about the axis of the shaft and do that as a negative operation?
<rqou> sounds reasonable
<rqou> but idk, i'm not a mechanical engineer
<whitequark> rqou: yeah
<whitequark> er
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: yeah
<azonenberg_work> oh wait it gets more fun
<azonenberg_work> its not a circular cutout
<azonenberg_work> it's rounded edges then the middle is flat
<azonenberg_work> so i have to do two arcs and a segment
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<rqou> hmm whitequark: https://twitter.com/whitequark/status/1043333078763098112 <-- what happens if we give birbs opposable thumbs? :P
<rqou> i thought birbs are also supposed to be ridiculously smart
<pie_> whitequark just wants something closer to catgirls, even if they are still furry
<rqou> i thought we've been over this many times already about how to give humans cat ears? :P
<pie_> whitequark is going at it from both directions
<rqou> lol
<whitequark> lies im not a furry
<whitequark> oh thats not what you said
<pie_> :>
<rqou> sooo, when are we going to actually work on ##opencatgirs? :P
<rqou> or this what ##whitequark is for? :P :P
<whitequark> lol
<pie_> put on the cat ears shinji
<rqou> oh btw pie_ ##whitequark is apparently an actual thing
<rqou> > Topic for ##whitequark is: non-institutional medical research
<whitequark> oh you didnt know
<rqou> i mean, i'm in the channel but pie_ isn't
<rqou> so maybe we can move our "how 2 catgirl" jokes there instead :P
<pie_> and make ##openfpga lose from its spirit?....eh, why not :P
<whitequark> its not fun unless youre invading other channels!!
<whitequark> seven nation catgirl army!
<rqou> lol
<rqou> can catboys join this army too? :P :P
<whitequark> sure
<rqou> awesome nya~
<rqou> :P
<whitequark> :3
<pie_> tfw your pet gtes a bigger part of the room than you do
<rqou> wait pie_ do you actually have a cat?
<pie_> no i was just joking about the previous
<pie_> and yesterday
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: oh joy so the model i sent you is totally busted
<whitequark> huh
<azonenberg_work> somehow i had dimensions set to inches
<azonenberg_work> but i did all the numbers in mm
<azonenberg_work> how can i fix that?
<rqou> looool\
<whitequark> i fucking KNEW
<whitequark> i literally thought about that when looking at it
<whitequark> just had a hunch
<rqou> good thing you weren't launching a mars probe :P
<azonenberg_work> Can i just edit a flag in the SLVS and make it recalculate?
<azonenberg_work> or does it always use metric internally?
<whitequark> no it always uses metric internally
<pie_> azonenberg_work, crash any satellites lately?
<pie_> oh rqou already made the joke :(
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: you can double click on any dimension and add "/25.4"
<whitequark> that will divide
<azonenberg_work> do i have to do that on every dimensoin or is there a 'scale all constraints' capability?
<pie_> sounds like "is there an 'i accidentally the units' feature"
<azonenberg_work> exactly
<pie_> exactly
<azonenberg_work> i have no idea why it defaulted to inches
<azonenberg_work> but yeah :p
<whitequark> i think it defaults to mm?
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> it defaults to mm
<whitequark> even though it was written by an american originally
<rqou> lol
<azonenberg_work> huh
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<azonenberg_work> whitequark: ok so i fixed that but i have another issue
<azonenberg_work> the square shaft is now giving me a big red outline on one of the polygons
<azonenberg_work> What causes that and how do i fix it?
<whitequark> ah you found the most annoying bug in solvespace
<azonenberg_work> i fixed it by slightly changing the sketch but not sure how
<whitequark> the nurbs backend isnt fully reliable
<pie_> bad topology?
<pie_> oh huh
<whitequark> sometimes it breaks, almost always with rotations
<azonenberg_work> What can i do about it?
<rqou> according to Fiora, so does commercial cad software :P
<azonenberg_work> is there any workaround?
<rqou> seriously how are cosplay props so hard on the solvers?
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: workarounds:
<azonenberg_work> whitequark, rqou: i'm trying to rotate this cutout around the central shaft axis
<whitequark> either convert nurbs to mesh
<azonenberg_work> subtractively
<whitequark> there's a checkbox for it in the group properties
<azonenberg_work> Does that break STEP export?
<azonenberg_work> because it seems to
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> unfortunately
<whitequark> the other workaround is to permute the sketch slightly
<whitequark> if you get out of the extrema where the solver gets stuck
<whitequark> then it usually does fine
<whitequark> just break symmetry
<azonenberg_work> any ideas what to do with this sketch?
<whitequark> try making it slightly deeper
<azonenberg_work> So not tangent to the surface?
<whitequark> yo uwant to avoid any coincident surfaces
<whitequark> even invisible ones
<azonenberg_work> Yeah i broke things previously by having two collinear line segments
<azonenberg_work> that got extruded into what would have become a single flat edge
<whitequark> yep
<azonenberg_work> How about where the arcs hit the line segment
<azonenberg_work> would that be an issue?
<whitequark> yes I think
<azonenberg_work> how would you suggest fixing that?
<azonenberg_work> Replace the arcs with circles, extrude those
<azonenberg_work> then do a separate rectangular extrusion on top of that?
<whitequark> maybe just move the arc endpoints slightly deeper?
<rqou> so uh, what does it take to fix this for real?
<whitequark> rqou: lots of cash
<rqou> why?
<whitequark> i dont understand computer graphics at all
<whitequark> so i need to hire someone who does
<rqou> not eggleroy/bofh?
<whitequark> i dont think so no
<whitequark> egg doesnt know this part of cg
<whitequark> bofh is... bofh
<rqou> meaning?
<whitequark> he owes me some bidi code in solvespace for two years
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<azonenberg_work> whitequark: so, experimentally
<azonenberg_work> i need to recess the groove 0.5 mm or more into the shaft
<azonenberg_work> beyond where it should be
<azonenberg_work> for the solver to work
<azonenberg_work> That's pretty significant
<azonenberg_work> i think it would still fit, and the torques involved are low enough i dont think it would damage the tool
<azonenberg_work> but still... not thrilled
<whitequark> sorry, not solver
<whitequark> geometric kernel
<whitequark> solver is fine
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: yes, i agree
<azonenberg_work> and how do i hide all of the construction lines in extruded geometry?
<whitequark> this is probably the major issue with solvespace
<whitequark> click on the group
<whitequark> checkbox to the left
<whitequark> in group list
<azonenberg_work> ah ok
<azonenberg_work> i thought that hid the geometry
<azonenberg_work> not just the construction stuff
<whitequark> it hides entities in the group
<azonenberg_work> How's the final design look?
<whitequark> sure seems fine
<azonenberg_work> Will re-send to you in a bit
<azonenberg_work> i dont need a 75 inch long tool bit :p
<rqou> hmm the internal hexagon seems trickier but the rest is pretty simple to make on just a manual mill
<whitequark> lol
<azonenberg_work> rqou: the internal hexagon isnt even super crucial
<azonenberg_work> the two parallel flats are probably enough to turn the nut
<azonenberg_work> you could probably get away with just using an endmill and rounding it
<rqou> hmm if the corners don't have to be sharp this whole thing should be pretty trivial to make
<azonenberg_work> This is a nominal design before any DFM
<azonenberg_work> yeah the chamfers are mostly cosmetic
<azonenberg_work> you could do them by hand with a file
<rqou> i really want a home machine shop lol
<azonenberg_work> the hex piece at the end needs to be actually hexagonal
<rqou> too many toys, too little time
<rqou> yeah but that's much easier
<azonenberg_work> and the little cutout in there is probably best done by putting the whole tool in a lathe
<azonenberg_work> But you might be able to do it with a mill and a rotary work holder for a mill
<azonenberg_work> put the endmill right next to the shaft, move it in slightly
<azonenberg_work> then rotate the workpiece
<rqou> i would just make this whole tool in multiple pieces and join them together if i were making it
<whitequark> ^
<azonenberg_work> in that case you could use standard bar stock
<azonenberg_work> for the hex piece
<azonenberg_work> I just dont know how you'd join it
<azonenberg_work> really tiny welds?
<whitequark> oh sure
<rqou> screws?
<azonenberg_work> You'd need two
<azonenberg_work> since the shaft is subject to torque
<rqou> sure whatever
<azonenberg_work> one would just loosen
<rqou> just use two
<azonenberg_work> Into a 1/4" diameter shaft?
<whitequark> my subcontractor can weld that easily
<azonenberg_work> or i guess you could do them setscrew style
<whitequark> if it's even necessary
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: yeah i dont care about the exact process
<azonenberg_work> The main critical dimensions are the wrench flat spacing
<azonenberg_work> the hexagonal shank diameter
<azonenberg_work> and the placement of the retaining groove
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: he once welded me a 1/4" tube to a swagelok valve
<whitequark> that had the wrong kind of flange
<azonenberg_work> all of those dimensions are "critical" in terms of maybe 50-100 um of slop? :p
<azonenberg_work> maybe not quite that much
<azonenberg_work> but 10-20 um of tolerance even would probably work
<rqou> hmm 50 um ~= 2 mil
<rqou> i bet even i could make this lol
<azonenberg_work> Then i want fairly high collinearity between the wrench area and the hex drive shaft but even 200-300um would be no big deal thre
<whitequark> 1 thou
<whitequark> is normal tolerance
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: that is more than adequate
<whitequark> placement of retaining grove is critical by which axis?
<azonenberg_work> If the groove is too far from the end of the shaft it wont fit in the tool
<azonenberg_work> If too close it will have a slightly more wobbly fit but be fine
<azonenberg_work> +/- 25 um is more than adequate though
<azonenberg_work> then the shank is specified as 6.3 - 6.35 so my cad has 6.325
<azonenberg_work> Which means a 1 thou tolerance puts me exactly within the standard's tolerance band
<azonenberg_work> rqou: yes i think i could make it too
<azonenberg_work> if i had a machine shop which i do not
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: also my other requirement is 3xx stainless, i think i mentioned that to you
<azonenberg_work> Since it will be sitting around in the lab, getting fingerprint oils on it, etc i want something i dont have to worry about rust on
<rqou> not aluminum?
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: yeah sure 316L
<whitequark> rqou: uh
<whitequark> macbooks dissolve in sweat
<rqou> wait really?
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: 316 or 304 are both acceptable, or anything else in the same basic family
<whitequark> also alu has this shitty feel
<whitequark> ok, 3xx
<whitequark> easily
<whitequark> rqou: yes they do
<whitequark> hence i got a carbon fiber laptop
<rqou> at $FANCY_SCHOOL basically anything the ME students made that was metal was aluminum 6061-T6
<whitequark> well that and Y capacitors
<whitequark> well
<whitequark> its cheap
<azonenberg_work> yeah its cheap and easy to machine
<azonenberg_work> so great training material
<whitequark> and fairly easy to work with
<whitequark> worse than like brass or steel
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: unless you need to weld it
<whitequark> but better than 316
<azonenberg_work> then, have fun
<whitequark> well
<whitequark> my subcontractor can weld you basically anything
<whitequark> that can be welded with tig
<whitequark> most beautiful damn welds i have seen in my life
<whitequark> how the fuck he does it, no idea
<pie_> jazz hands
<whitequark> but he welds stainless foil like you or me can write a libusb based driver
<whitequark> or something
<azonenberg_work> crazy russian welder?
<whitequark> before i met him i havent even realized some of these things CAN be welded
<whitequark> yes basically
<whitequark> and he's like "oh yeah 300 micron foil nbd"
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: related, i had a crazy idea i've wanted to try for a while
<whitequark> like what the fuck, did you sell your soul to satan
<azonenberg_work> i experimented with it a long time ago on some scrap PCBs but i dont think i had the oomph for it
<azonenberg_work> And it's totally useless for any practical purpose
<azonenberg_work> but... MIG soldering :p
<azonenberg_work> ground the pcb trace, supply power to your reel of solder
<whitequark> he could rake in millions in the US and instead he lives in some crappy moscow suburb, i dunno
<pie_> whitequark, for vodka? :PP
<azonenberg_work> i got it to stick but it didnt make good joints, the pcb didnt get hot enough
<rqou> do i need to go move to russia or hk? :P
<pie_> for vodka and welds
<whitequark> pie_: dont think he drinks
<whitequark> well not a lot definitely
<pie_> why drink when you can relax with HOT WELDS
<whitequark> just your regular ass family guy
<whitequark> that does incredible welds
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: meanwhile, the genius of a TA who "taught me to weld" in my RPI shop class
<azonenberg_work> forgot to turn the shielding gas tank on
<azonenberg_work> my first time
<whitequark> incredible
<azonenberg_work> I was wondering why it was sparking everywhere and everything looked all rusty
<pie_> whitequark, sell his work to the us, give him loads of kash
<whitequark> pie_: well what am i doing right now?
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: i thought this only happens in jokes on /r/welding
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: no, it happened in an RPI classroom
<azonenberg_work> the head instructor was really good
<whitequark> did i ever say i wanted to go to rpi? scratch that
<azonenberg_work> the TAs ranged from stellar to awful
<whitequark> oh
<rqou> whitequark: no $FANCY_SCHOOL for you? :P
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: you still dont want to go to rpi :p
<azonenberg_work> The president is an authoritarian lunatic with terrible financial sense
<whitequark> rqou: why would i want that other than for nepotism
<azonenberg_work> Who is driving the school into debt while systematically disenfranchising the students and faculty
<pie_> we should start our own fancy school with FPGAs and WELDING
<whitequark> colossal waste of money
<rqou> i mean, it's not a bad school
<whitequark> for a piece of paper
<whitequark> not for what it costs
<whitequark> im not sure i would go to $FANCY_SCHOOL even for free
<rqou> RPI is also nice an $$$$
<rqou> *and
<whitequark> yes that is true
<whitequark> but consider
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: i learned a ton *while an RPI student*
<azonenberg_work> very little in the classroom
<pie_> pff classrooms are just a formality
<azonenberg_work> maybe 5-10% of what i use at work or in my own projects on a daily basis came out of a classroom
<azonenberg_work> if that
<whitequark> youre smart but youre like, regular programmer guy with decent hardware skills or something. tons of these
<whitequark> and then theres azonenberg
<pie_> ^
<whitequark> hence rpi >> $FANCY_SCHOOL
<rqou> wtf
<azonenberg_work> i learned almost all of the interesting things i do on my own
<pie_> theres channels, and then theres ##openfpga
* pie_ dials back the commentary and tries to get back to work
* azonenberg_work is waiting on a portscan of $CLIENT's network to finish so he knows what to try pwning
<azonenberg_work> Might as well hang out on irc in the meantime :p
<rqou> just drop eternalblue :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: but what if it's a linux box?
<rqou> shellshock+futex? :P
<azonenberg_work> also ROE for this test is no active exploitation
<azonenberg_work> So i get to try and find bugs wihtout actually using them
<azonenberg_work> which is often harder than actually throwing a sploit and seeing if it sticks
<azonenberg_work> But clients tend to complain when you do that to their production network
<rqou> meanwhile $WORK had a hilarious situation where they had IDS rules for detecting portscans from the vpn to <redacted>
<rqou> but couldn't detect any of the actual exploitation we did :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: lol
<azonenberg_work> Well these guys are making me do my testing over the weekend and second-shift hours during the work week
<azonenberg_work> specifically to avoid the slightest chance of downtime whatsoever during business hours
<rqou> ah so not like us where we actually broke things :P
<azonenberg_work> so it's very much analytical work being as non-disturbing as possible
<azonenberg_work> I love such tests
<azonenberg_work> But this one is kid-gloves mode
<pie_> time to write an auto tool
<rqou> we broke something right before the entire team left for hacker summer camp :P
<pie_> so, ironically, im about to (hopefully) get a job where im going to get funneled into microarchitectural exploitation...
<pie_> well job/internship
<whitequark> whoa
<pie_> its a pretty new lab though and we probably dont have access to NDA stuff
<pie_> so dont think of anything fancy
<pie_> well "lab" (probably just software side stuff? idk)
<pie_> i dont really know anything yet, but man its gonna be pretty weird
<azonenberg_work> ooh shiny
<azonenberg_work> any idea what architectures?
<rqou> x86? :P
<pie_> i never really bothered looking into spectre/etc stuff since i had other interests
<rqou> the gift that keeps on giving :P
<pie_> yeah probaby mainstream stuff, also $small_company (afaik)
<pie_> i mean its a small secu company
<azonenberg_work> ah cool
* azonenberg_work wonders if $dayjob is doing any such work
<pie_> i really hope it goes through
<azonenberg_work> i probably would have heard of it if we were
<pie_> azonenberg_work, well i mean you're not THAT far from it with your close to the hardware stuff :P
<pie_> though my hunch is that this is going to be "very practical stuff" so might not actually be cutting edge research or whatever
<mithro> https://j.mp/orconf-symbiflow - Slides from my talk about SymbiFlow at OrConf
<pie_> i mean unless finding exploits in enterprise applications is cutting edge research
<pie_> tl;dr: a friend set me up, im not against this, but i have no idea whats going on yet :D
<pie_> basically i just wanted to bring it up because i think theres a bunch of people doing cool hardware stuff in here
<pie_> even if its not quite this
<pie_> i guess i should start reading the papers but right now im yak shaving on trying to figure out how to do DVCS for node graphs, because linear undo is dumb >_>
<rqou> i really need to get back and do more hardware stuff
<rqou> but for various reasons getting "back into the groove" is hard
<pie_> jn__, hypothetical $pieDA_pro feature ^
<pie_> dataflow thing for reverse engineering pipeline
<pie_> but im a noob
<pie_> and irc too much instead of thinking
<rqou> btw whitequark can we turn this into ##openfitness again? :P
<whitequark> did we turn it into ##openfitness?
<rqou> supplementing vitamin d3 like you suggested seems to help quite a bit
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> really?
<rqou> but doesn't seem to fix everything
<pie_> i heard people really underdose vitamin d
<rqou> yeah, this was literally the previous ##openfitness discussion
<rqou> actually, rephrasing
<whitequark> what does it not fix for you?
<pie_> is it safe to take vitamin d without a known deficiency
<rqou> supplementing d3 seems to make me overall feel better but nothing was really "fixed"
<whitequark> pie_: yes basically
<whitequark> just dont do it too much
<pie_> i dont take supplements regularly but i do pop some when i remember, because theres no way i get all i need, and i kind of ad-hoc prevent any overdoses probably :P
<pie_> basically horribly unscientific but probably better than not
<pie_> thats not to be understood as multiple of the same supplement at once
<rqou> so whitequark: any suggestions for fixing a really fucking awful sleep cycle?
<whitequark> rqou: meltaonin
<whitequark> but like, 0.3mg, not the massive doses they sell
<rqou> hmm, but how should i effectively use it in my case?
<rqou> basically my current schedule is
<rqou> get up way too fucking late (like 10am) despite having a huge string of alarms starting at like 9am
<rqou> during the workweek
<rqou> and then getting up at like 4pm on weekends
<rqou> and then going to bed at like 3am despite not really getting anything useful done
<whitequark> well take it 1-2 hours before a proper sleep time
<rqou> what would be a good "target" sleep cycle?
<whitequark> 2300-0800?
<rqou> hmm definitely way too early for me lol
<rqou> i'm not a morning person
<whitequark> 0000-0900
<rqou> hmm
<pie_> have not finished reading: slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://www.gwern.net/Melatonin
<pie_> very good material afaict
<rqou> as a student i usually did something like 0200-0930
<pie_> rqou, probably read the above
<rqou> but now that i'm not a student i somehow can't really keep that schedule very well
<pie_> somehow i can do everything except keep normal daytime hours
<pie_> like ive had periods where i would wake up at 2am and go to bed at like 6 or something
<rqou> i had periods when i was a student where i basically did biphasic sleep
<rqou> but that doesn't fit well with having a "real job"
<rqou> whitequark: is 9 hours of sleep really the recommended amount?
<whitequark> rqou: theres no real recommended amount
<whitequark> just sleep however much you need
<whitequark> its not worth doing sleep deprivation unless youre like, severely depressed
<rqou> so 0200-0930 worked pretty well when i was a student; why am i having so much trouble keeping to that now?
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<whitequark> you're older and you probably have less constraints
<rqou> not that much older lol
<whitequark> well, life drains from you drop by drop
<rqou> hmm maybe it is much more about the constraints
<rqou> the student stress environment was... a mixed bag
<rqou> i was pretty burned out by the end
<pie_> i had some...problems :/ should have gotten my bachelors a few months ago
<rqou> the thing is, in many ways i really liked having the stress
<travis-ci> whitequark/Glasgow#49 (master - 65002cf : whitequark): The build passed.
<rqou> hmm, i should sleep
<rqou> how is it so late already?
<whitequark> lol rqou
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<awygle> rqou: try the sleep phase advance schedule listed in that slatestarcodex link pie dropped, and look for an earlier "set point" than you're currently sitting in. Without drugs I handle 2300-0700 and 0100-0900 almost exactly the same (in the summer). Also blackout curtains are incredible.
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<rqou> awygle: hmm interesting. i actually used to have blackout curtains
<rqou> they were put in by an ex-housemate who also had fucky sleep patterns
<rqou> unfortunately it tended to lead to lots of feelings of "not enough Outside(TM)"
<awygle> The end of summer is fucking me up a bit right now. I'm thinking about trying one of those blue light alarms...
<reportingsjr> I bought some of the Tradfri lights that Ikea sells
<reportingsjr> they work ok
<reportingsjr> They 100% wake me up, but they aren't super reliable when using the remotes they sell
<awygle> Interesting. I hadn't heard of these before.
<rqou> i still think i was most effective when i was on a biphasic sleep cycle as a student
<reportingsjr> I've been happy enough with them. Quite secure compared to other IoT lights.
<rqou> but i stopped doing that because of <redacted>
<awygle> Yeah I liked biphasic sleep too
<rqou> and now that I'm not a student it's hard to do
<awygle> But it's not compatible with life
<rqou> it worked fine in the rather specific way i did things as a student
<reportingsjr> awygle: something I keep meaning to do is tie them in to the sleep tracking app I use. I found it super useful to have an alarm app that attempts to track deep sleep/REM and wake you up during lighter sleep.
<awygle> reportingsjr: yeah I used to do that but I stopped at some point. I think I couldn't find an android app that I was satisfied with? I used to do it with my ipod touch way back in the day
<reportingsjr> I like sleep as android
<reportingsjr> It does a pretty good job.
<reportingsjr> Unfortunately the only "smart lights" tie in it has is Philips hue, so I need to setup a hue to Tradfri bridge on my home assistant setup which is.. meh.
<reportingsjr> I haven't been using it for about a month because my pebble watch died. I can seriously tell. I feel like crap over half of the times I wake up now.
<rqou> hmm i wonder if i can just switch back to biphasic sleep anyways and just hope my coworkers don't look at me funny
<rqou> unfortunately because it's not Google there aren't nap pods around or anything like that
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<rqou> hmm, i really should do something productive today