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<rqou> tfw when $WORK's usual "IT stuff" supplier is more expensive than Monoprice
<TD-Linux> I need one of these now that I know they exist https://twitter.com/tokkyo/status/1045315363196391426
<prpplague> TD-Linux: what's special about it? it's just a sata M.2 with a usb adapter
<prpplague> TD-Linux: i use them all the time for pre-loading of the sata M.2 modules
<TD-Linux> it is just an aesthetically pleasing form factor
<prpplague> TD-Linux: ahh
<prpplague> TD-Linux: just remember it's the SATA M.2 not the PCIe M.2
<balrog> speaking of PCIe/NVMe M.2, I just put one in this late-2013 retina MBP
<prpplague> balrog: i didn't realize that nvme m.2 was supported back in 2013
<prpplague> balrog: must have been a really cutting edge model
<balrog> prpplague: it may not have been, but Apple added support in the firmware update that was shipped with macOS 10.13 in September 2017
<prpplague> balrog: but to even have a socket for it
<prpplague> that's interesting
<balrog> prpplague: it's a custom socket. Apple shipped SSDs that did AHCI over PCIe
<prpplague> balrog: oh that makes sense then
<balrog> original AHCI over x2 PCIe gets 400-500 MB/s
<balrog> NVMe over the same bus gets around 1500
<prpplague> nice
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<rqou> wait balrog if i upgrade a mac do you get any weird glitches?
<rqou> or will everything including booting and TRIM work correctly
<rqou> debating if it's worth it to get a 1tb upgrade
<kc8apf> macOS has some compatibility tables that will turn off features if they are known to generally not work without careful testing
<rqou> meaning?
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<kc8apf> if you put in an aftermarket storage device, sometimes features like TRIM aren't enabled
<kc8apf> was a big deal in the early days of SSDs
<kc8apf> no idea what the situation is now
<rqou> the internet suggests i have to update to high sierra first (i'm not sure what macos version i'm on)
<rqou> which will then update the efi
<rqou> and supposedly i can "just" use one of those unofficial upgrades after that
<rqou> but still, i already have 500gb, and a 1tb upgrade in a rather old mbp isn't clearly worth it
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<TD-Linux> nvme drives are still a bit too pricey for me. I'd almost always rather have more ssd than faster ssd
<rqou> but then i would need a large PCIe/AHCI ssd which is a bit unusual
<TD-Linux> oh yeah, in that case full nvme :)
<rqou> the thing is, it's not clearly worth it
<rqou> i also probably need a battery replacement too
<gruetzkopf> i've bought my first SSD on monday, which simply saturates the sata3 link it's on..
<azonenberg_work> gruetzkopf: need pcie
<rqou> yeah apple are weirdos who did pcie/ahci way way before nvme
<azonenberg_work> rqou: well i have a m.2 ssd in my workstation but the physical link is pcie
<rqou> so nvme?
<azonenberg_work> my next file server will probably have two raid'd pcie HH/HL ssds
<rqou> or pcie/ahci?
<gruetzkopf> yeah not readily accessible in this IVB based laptop
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i believe ahci
<azonenberg_work> but its on a box
<azonenberg_work> in a box*
<azonenberg_work> in the basement
<rqou> wtf
<azonenberg_work> so i dont really know
<gruetzkopf> could get a newer one since intel seem to have fucked up signing on newer platforms
<azonenberg_work> idk, i havent booted the thing in 2 months
<azonenberg_work> i dont have a desk to use it at
<rqou> the more these discussions come up the more i really want to commission 51nb or whoever to design a custom hacker laptop
<azonenberg_work> rqou: except each one would be grossly different
<rqou> what do you mean?
<azonenberg_work> well, i want two laptops
<rqou> my ideal laptop would be upgradeable ram, ssd+wifi slots, some usb ports, and then all remaining pcie lanes into sfp/qsfp cages
<azonenberg_work> One, the standalone one, would be a standard 15" laptop form factor but with a beefy ssd and enough ram to run lots of VMs
<rqou> with configurable bifurcation of course
<azonenberg_work> then probably one sfp and one qsfp cage
<azonenberg_work> The second would be optimized for thin-client use while traveling
<gruetzkopf> the thing i want from laptop seems unattainable with linux
<rqou> i'd get a chromebook for that
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i didnt finish :p
<azonenberg_work> Ruggedized IP67 chassis, something that you can forget in a pickup truck bed and go driving down muddy logging roads
<azonenberg_work> then hose off when you get home
<azonenberg_work> and be fine
<azonenberg_work> tig welded 316 stainless body with gaskets at all joints and sealed, capped connectord
<rqou> ah, so a custom chromebook
<azonenberg_work> polycarbonate shield over the display
<azonenberg_work> Then the guts would be a tablet-class motherboard in a 15" laptop form factor
<azonenberg_work> actual full sized keyboard and touchpad
<azonenberg_work> maybe 64GB eMMC soldered down, SD slot if you really need more storage
<azonenberg_work> a couple gigs of soldered LPDDR4
<azonenberg_work> Wifi, cell modem, and 1000baseT
<azonenberg_work> Then the rest of the body filled with ~250 Wh of battery
<rqou> so an ip67 chromebook
<azonenberg_work> It would be maybe a 1.5-2" thick laptop
<azonenberg_work> with a briefcase-style handle on it
<azonenberg_work> but you could charge it up on friday after work
<azonenberg_work> and then not charge it again until the following friday
<azonenberg_work> use it on a plane, in a park, on a long-haul bus
<azonenberg_work> rain or shine
<azonenberg_work> oh and of course it would need a sunlight-readable reflective LCD
<azonenberg_work> something like pixel qi
<rqou> olpc? :P
<azonenberg_work> With an optional backlight that can be turned down to like 1e-4 or 1e-5 duty cycle
<azonenberg_work> if not less
<TD-Linux> rqou, wait for the power8 laptop
<rqou> olpc actually has a pretty unique lcd that might meet your requirements
<azonenberg_work> standard ~8 bit PWM on android devices never gets CLOSE to dim enough for my dark-adapted eyes
<rqou> TD-Linux: eww, power
<azonenberg_work> The olpc lcd is the closest i have seen to what i want
<azonenberg_work> if they made that in a 15" form factor and with a VERY dimmable backlight
<azonenberg_work> i'd bre interested
<TD-Linux> rqou, but freedumbs
<azonenberg_work> pretty sure pixel qi made that panel though :p
<rqou> TD-Linux: i don't care _that_ much
<rqou> unless you want to invest a fuckton of work into qemu
<azonenberg_work> rqou: the point is, re display backlight
<rqou> especially unfucking its x87 code
<azonenberg_work> i have never, ever seen a device where the "0%" brightness is comfortable to use on fully dark adapted eyes
<TD-Linux> my power9 box fortunately never has to run any x86 code
<TD-Linux> but I sympathize
<azonenberg_work> imagine using it outdoors in a starlit field at 2am
<azonenberg_work> without blinding yourself
<TD-Linux> I got mad enough at the state of laptops that I actually got a desktop for work
<TD-Linux> 10/10 would recommend
<azonenberg_work> it doesn't need to be "can only see with night vision goggles" dim, but close
<azonenberg_work> (and honestly a NVG-compatible laptop would be really cool lol)
<rqou> TD-Linux: why does power seem to have a really dumb split between "legacy" and "modern" power systems?
<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: i have desktops too and love them
<azonenberg_work> But if i am using a laptop i want portability and (hard to find) durability
<rqou> e.g. why did debian drop official support for my crt g3 imac? :P
<azonenberg_work> it has to be something i can take anywhere and not destroy it
<TD-Linux> rqou, as opposed to... x86? hahahahahaha
<rqou> x87 is still in active use though
<rqou> iirc ppc64 is the really cursed/fucked one
<rqou> iirc there's a v1 and v2 abi
<TD-Linux> mine runs ppc64le
<rqou> and the v1 one was dumb
<rqou> and BE systems usually ran v1 abi
<rqou> and LE systems usually ran v2 abi
<rqou> musl decided to run both BE and LE in v2 abi and is thus different from everybody else
<TD-Linux> bringing musl to an argument is cheating
<rqou> why?
<TD-Linux> it's always doing something special
<rqou> usually more correctly
<TD-Linux> good ol' x87 floating point in malloc
<rqou> and/or sanely
<rqou> uh what
<rqou> in musl?
<rqou> anyways, my imac g3 is actually a rather interesting and unique test system
<rqou> slow, non-x86 non-arm, big-endian
<rqou> but still modern enough to have usb and ethernet
<rqou> so you can connect "modern" devices still and test stuff like azonenberg_work's gp4prog
<rqou> (which works btw)
<rqou> imho it's actually pretty cool to occasionally mess with these legacy-but-not-enough-to-be-a-huge-pain-to-interface-with systems
<rqou> it'd be really cool to have an unfucked ps2 linux
<rqou> an unfucked dreamcast linux would be nice too
<kc8apf> rqou: POWER != PowerPC. G3 was powerpc.
<rqou> wait what
<kc8apf> g5 was mostly PWOER
<kc8apf> PowerPC is slightly dumbed down. Drops some hypervisor support.
<rqou> > "Power Architecture" is a broad term including all products based on newer POWER, PowerPC and Cell processors.
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> that's not confusing at all
<rqou> ah ok
<rqou> it seems that g5 is still "special" somehow?
<kc8apf> right. makes perfect sense.
<kc8apf> G5 was a POWER4 with altivec hacked on
<rqou> at least the fruit-computer version is apparently special for being BE-only
<kc8apf> I recall it having bits to flip to LE mode. Never tried them tough.
<kc8apf> G5 also had an Apple-custom processor interconnect to the chipset
<rqou> apparently it doesn't work on the mac
<rqou> kc8apf: i'm curious, in your opinion which is the most cursed? g5, xenon, or cell?
<kc8apf> what do you mean by cursed?
<rqou> somehow horrible or hacky or awful to program
<kc8apf> g5 and cell are terrible in different ways
<kc8apf> never played with xenon but I recall it being similar-ish to g5
<kc8apf> oh, no it's more like cell
<kc8apf> just MS bought a bunch of g5s for development workstations
<kc8apf> cell is by far more horrible to program for. SBEs require you to rework algorithms just to use them.
<kc8apf> g5 (ppc970) was just a monster that required some careful understanding of the pipeline to get high performance
<kc8apf> from a design standpoint, cell was much cleaner. ppc970 was literally a POWER4 cut down, altivec hacked on, and debug signals turned into performance counters
<rqou> wat
<rqou> why?
<kc8apf> cell was coming from POWER6 which switched to in-order execution after the 200+ in-flight instruction monsters of POWER4 and POWER5
<rqou> > debug signals turned into performance counters
<kc8apf> the full perf monitoring for pOWER4 was too big for ppc970. They needed to make room for Altivec.
<rqou> was all of this done just for apple?
<kc8apf> so the ppc970 perf counters are a hodge-podge of muxes and byte selects off the debug bus. 99% of the events are useless
<kc8apf> yep
<kc8apf> Motorola/Freescale had no plans after ppc7450
<kc8apf> IBM was focusing on processors for AS/400 and RS/6000
<kc8apf> IBM was willing to modify a design to fit a desktop usage
<kc8apf> Freescale wasn't
<kc8apf> There was some indication that IBM thought it would re-open the desktop market to them
<kc8apf> but IBM has never been able to design low-power parts.
<rqou> so is that why the g5 mac consumes a bajillion watts?
<kc8apf> yup.
<kc8apf> early dev units came with 20A plugs
<kc8apf> and instructions to distribute them over different lab circuits
<kc8apf> the g5 laptop prototypes were wishful thinking
<kc8apf> of course, there were also dual processor g4 laptop prototypes
<rqou> cursed
<kc8apf> other tidbits: ppc970 had a few quirks about power-on behavior. The processor cards include a PIC to bit-bang JTAG to get the processor to start.
<rqou> aaaaaaaaaaah
<rqou> fucking apple
<kc8apf> normally IBM's service processor would do that for you
<kc8apf> see the crazy crap in OpenBMC for Power8 and Power9 machines
<rqou> does the g3 do anything crazy like that?
<rqou> somehow "systems-level" docs for ppc macs are impossible to find
<kc8apf> nah. ppc750 was a fairly clean design
<rqou> although somehow people have managed to port linux to them
<kc8apf> ppc7400, 7410, and 7450 all suffered from freescale screwing up branch target caches and having poor l2 cache yields
<rqou> so those are apple's "g4"?
<kc8apf> yup
<rqou> i actually have noticed that the g3 performs quite well considering it's a 1999-era machine
<kc8apf> I used a 7450 with a broken L2 cache as my workstation at Apple for a long time
<rqou> except the graphics isn't accelerated
<TD-Linux> kc8apf, yeah it's kind of crazy to have to wait for openbmc to boot before you can hit the power switch
<TD-Linux> that said, I'll 100% take over intel me
<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: is it that hard to have a tiny cpld doing that kind of stuff?
<kc8apf> intel's chips all assume BMC is optional.
<azonenberg_work> in gateware
<azonenberg_work> with no access to anything but power pins, resets, etc
<azonenberg_work> i.e. no chance of corrupting/altering system state
<TD-Linux> azonenberg_work, they have an ice40 on board with icestorm to handle some of it
<TD-Linux> the bmc supports actual bmc things though oto
<kc8apf> azonenberg_work: that's what intel tends to do on their reference boards
<TD-Linux> kc8apf, true but on them they have the intel me in addition to a bmc
<azonenberg_work> kc8apf: i mean instead of me
<TD-Linux> on power9 the bmc basically does the same tasks as intel me
<azonenberg_work> i want a cpu that comes out of reset executing out of memory mapped spi flash
<azonenberg_work> and has no onboard bootrom
<TD-Linux> azonenberg_work, the hifive does that
<azonenberg_work> TD-Linux: yeah but no desktop class cpu does it
<azonenberg_work> not even most arm stuff these days
<azonenberg_work> i also don't get why ram initialization is so software driven
<rqou> er, i thought it had some hidden "fix errata and set up boot" rom that wasn't open?
<kc8apf> hasn't since Nehalem?
<TD-Linux> rqou, oh maybe. I forget
<azonenberg_work> is it that difficult to read a SPD in gateware?
<rqou> iirc bunnie mentioned that
<TD-Linux> azonenberg_work, because it's easier and cheaper?
<azonenberg_work> and initialize the ram s.t. when the cpu comes out of reset dram is already initialized
<azonenberg_work> (this is how all of my fpga systems work)
<rqou> oh btw still on the topic of "fun" machines
<azonenberg_work> writes just block until ram is ready
<azonenberg_work> then ram works
<azonenberg_work> no bios, no bootloader
<rqou> kc8apf: idk if you were at apple back then, but i have a supposedly-a-prototype imac
<azonenberg_work> app code running out of the gate
<kc8apf> rqou: which generation?
<rqou> the original one
<kc8apf> ah. I built a few of those out of scrap parts
<rqou> it's the 333 mhz refresh of the tray-loading version, but still in a bondi blue case
<rqou> feels really fast given that it's only 333 mhz
<kc8apf> azonenberg_work: RAM training is one of those things that they tweak and tweak until it works
<rqou> huh, wikipedia apparently mentions that this machine was supposed to ship with _32 MB_ of ram
<rqou> kinda hard to imagine nowadays :P
<rqou> of course because moore's law i turned it into 512 MB
<kc8apf> anyway, on intel server parts, they have a lot of holdovers from long ago.
<rqou> no more piece of shit mac os 9 memory manager
<kc8apf> power on is a signal routed to the PCH which generally handles the start-up sequence
<kc8apf> when a BMC is added, they route that signal to the magic GPIO banks on BMC SoCs that have POR behavior of turninig each pair of pins into a loopback
<kc8apf> that way the power button works even when the BMC is booting
<rqou> wtf
<kc8apf> once the BMC is up and running, it flips a bit that turns off the loopback and then asserts control of the output state
<TD-Linux> yeah the talos board doesn't have that, hence the 30 second wait for linux to boot on the bmc after plugging in :)
<kc8apf> BIOS was directly on LPC for a long time. Intel would add a CPLD so the BMC could flip a mux and and become the LPC master to the BIOS flash. When the BMC is done writing its update, it flips the mux back and hits the reset line
<kc8apf> TD-Linux: the loopback GPIO bank is there on talos. Power9 just requires a bunch of commands over FSI before it will start
<TD-Linux> ahh ok
<TD-Linux> I bought some spare flashes so I can screw around with talos harder
<kc8apf> nowadays BMCs have LPC slave interfaces to capture port 80 decode, control flash write through, etc
<kc8apf> typically, the BMC software stack leaves a bit on that allows the LPC interface to have direct access to the BMC's AHB
<rqou> aaaaaaaaah
<rqou> wtf
<kc8apf> that's a pretty common way for host processors to update the BMC firmware
<kc8apf> they command the BMC's FMC directly via LPC
<TD-Linux> interesting
<rqou> so, thoughts on the ps4 architecture? :P
<TD-Linux> on openbmc on talos you have to copy a new image into ram and then tell it to reboot and write it to flash
<rqou> if you're not familiar, the "southbridge" or "pch" equivalent is a marvell armada soc with a pcie slave glued in
<TD-Linux> and you're 100% hosed if that fails anywhere
<kc8apf> TD-Linux: ah, so they did take my team's updates to that
<TD-Linux> (luckily you're actually 0% hosed as the spi flash is socketed)
<rqou> oh and the address bus is only 31 bits on it so if you set up your dma wrong it breaks
<TD-Linux> kc8apf, probably they then don't have the ahb accessible?
<kc8apf> if they run upstream OpenBMC, AHB mapping got turned off ~1.5 years ago
<TD-Linux> it is upstream afaik. cool.
<kc8apf> now there is a daemon that mimics LPC flash
<TD-Linux> is there anything cool I can do with openbmc other than boot the system?
<kc8apf> and the host firmware flash part should have a filesystem
<kc8apf> it's a full linux system. there's lots of cool things
<TD-Linux> is the lpc that openbmc sees entirely unmasked?
<kc8apf> sort-of
<TD-Linux> can I emulate a sound blaster 16 on openbmc
<kc8apf> yeah, you probably could
<kc8apf> but power9 doesn't have an LPC connection
<kc8apf> they hacked it in firmware on power8
<rqou> are there "modern" MIPS systems?
<kc8apf> power9 talks to the BMC over spi IIRC
<rqou> that aren't embedded
<TD-Linux> rqou, no
<TD-Linux> afaik mips hasn't made any new cores of any value in >10 years
<rqou> don't let azonenberg_work hear that :P
<kc8apf> if you get an older intel board with an aspeed ast2400 on it, we could do SB16 over LPC
<TD-Linux> I'd love to see otherwise :)
<rqou> azonenberg_work really likes the pic32
<azonenberg_work> i like the idea
<rqou> (yes, it's still embedded)
<azonenberg_work> the implementation is awful
<TD-Linux> I mean there's loongson and ingenic but those are third party cores
<kc8apf> benh had a functional usb gadget driver a while back. if they finished it up, you can do fun things like have the BMC be a USB ethernet interface to the host
<kc8apf> or a mass storage device
<kc8apf> the intended use is keyboard, mouse, and CDROMs emulation but the hardware will do anything
<rqou> wait, this is x86 or power?
<kc8apf> yes
<rqou> troll suggestion: trap _everything_ and make it work like a pc98 :P
<kc8apf> it's part of the BMC hardware
<kc8apf> Aspeed AST2400/2500 and Nuvoton WPMC450 and NPCM750 all have usb slave controllers that look like USB hubs
<rqou> so is it actually possible to trap enough access to make the system look like a pc98?
<kc8apf> that's how VNC keyboard and mouse work
<TD-Linux> rqou, I thought about that but the answer is no
<TD-Linux> because pc98 firmware is also different
<kc8apf> I know nothing of pc98
<rqou> yeah me neither
<kc8apf> BMC are fun devices though
<TD-Linux> pc98 is alternate universe x86
<TD-Linux> much like ps4
<rqou> somehow "systems-level" docs for pc98 are also really rare
<TD-Linux> they are common but you have to speak moon
<kc8apf> remote access support means lots of interesting ports are hooked into the BMC
<rqou> great, i'll get back to you 10 years later after i learn moon
<kc8apf> want to see what's on the screen? the BMC pretends to be a VGA card over PCIE and maps the framebuffer into the BMC's system RAM
<TD-Linux> rqou, I can't speak it either and I managed :)
<rqou> well first i have to navigate moonrunes enough to actually buy a pc98 system :P
<TD-Linux> (also, there is still less documentation than ibm pc, even counting all jp documentation)
<TD-Linux> I can help if you want
<rqou> i think i'll hold off until i fix all of my current "unusual" computing systems
<kc8apf> want to screw with the host's NIC? Send PCIe VPD packets with MCTP data from the BMC to the NIC and take control over it
<kc8apf> time for sleep
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<keesj> https://kitspace.org/ also has some open designes based on open fpga's
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<whitequark> awygle: poke poke
<whitequark> did you ever assemble the glasgows?
<awygle> ow, ow
<awygle> I built one. More this weekend.
<whitequark> sweet
<awygle> Life is an unending sprint but as soon as I'm home and conscious for more than an hour lol
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<implr> cursed device
<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/23699df1c582b6813a43940ac3b4e1c28d79d29e
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 23699df whitequark: cli: we're up to revB, yay!
<whitequark> cursed
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<cr1901_modern> Reminds me of the USB-to-ISA adapters that don't work
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<cr1901_modern> At least this is more of a bus "extender" rather than a bus converter
<daveshah> cr1901_modern: You could in theory build a USB 3 to PCIe adapter with a USB3382, although of course custom drivers would be needed for the card (making it almost useless)
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<cr1901_modern> daveshah: The same issue w/ USB to ISA adapter. None of your old ISA cards will work out of the box b/c I'm pretty sure a USB controller isn't going to intercept old port-mapped I/O meant for the the cards. You could embed the port mapped I/O into the USB stream, but none of the standard drivers will work
<whitequark> cr1901_modern: you could intercept that I/O with SMM
<awygle> that's kind of an amazing device
<whitequark> cr1901_modern: or more easily, run the old OS in qemu and forward everything from there
<whitequark> which is essentially the same thing
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: I'll take your word for it re: SMM. I wouldn't know how to do that.
<cr1901_modern> Ahhh
<whitequark> I mean that's how USB keyboards work with software that pokes PS/2 registers
<whitequark> the firmware implements an EHCI driver
<whitequark> and a PS/2 emulator
<whitequark> kind of cursed too
<cr1901_modern> I can only imagine LOL
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<gruetzkopf> the expresscard variant is the only of that kind of product i'd use
<gruetzkopf> also waay overpriced, mine cost me less than 3€ per to make
<pie_> i thought you just straight plugged the wires in lol
<pointfree> example 5: XOR using status and control block for io (for firmware instead of gpio pins) http://www.psoctools.org/psoc5lp-example-configs.html#example5
<gruetzkopf> i sacrificed a 2€ esata card and grabbed a connector from $shop
<awygle> hmm, question for the room - does even mode / common mode impedance matter if you are only driving a pair differentially?
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<awygle> i guess there *is* a common mode component to unipolar differential signals... hm.
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<awygle> okay, i'm pretty sure the CM impedance isn't important because the CM signal should be ~DC, so it won't see TL effects and doesn't really care about impedance. in case anyone was wondering lol
<cr1901_modern> I never really got that far. It's been 8 years since I've seen a Smith chart
<awygle> smith charts are bummers
<awygle> imo
<awygle> kind of like that one controls thing, what's it called.... root-locus plots
<awygle> "this is the thing we used before computers could do math, but you have to learn it because... reasons."
<cr1901_modern> I don't remember how to use them. Even a network analyzer, there's a calibration step you always have to do w/ the connector and I don't remember how/why it works
<awygle> basically just subtracting stuff you don't care about so the instrument will only show you what you do care about
<cr1901_modern> right but I don't remember why it works; I recall you calibrate while nothing except one side of the cable connector is attached. But when you attach the cable and the _other_ connector, isn't there an impedance mismatch between the two mating sides of the connector anyway?
<cr1901_modern> This is also one reason I have trouble w/ RF PCBs- I don't know how to calculate impedance mismatch due to "PCB trace-to-connector" impedance change.
<awygle> you can do both kinds of calibration, "open" and "through". usually you _want_ to see the mismatch between the two mating sides of the connector, and usually it's small
<cr1901_modern> awygle: Remind me to ask you more about this when I have time :). I have errands to run sadly. But good to know I at least remember bits and pieces of it correctly
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<awygle> cr1901_modern: sure :)
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<awygle> this is the third time this week i've had to decompile something i wrote to extract a function that i somehow lost the source code to....
<lain> d'oh
<awygle> not my proudest moment(s) lol
<qu1j0t3> :/
<qu1j0t3> you don't use version control on your own stuff?
<awygle> i do, i just somehow.... didn't commit this? idk
<awygle> i think i had to swap to another branch real quick and got overly aggressive with "git stash" when it didn't just work immediately
<qu1j0t3> ah yeah git reset --hard has killed me a few times
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<implr> rqou: >occasionally mess with these legacy-but-not-enough-to-be-a-huge-pain-to-interface-with systems
<implr> yeah, we recently got a sparc t2 and that was an interesting experience
<implr> decent compute, takes regular ddr2 so we filled it up to 32G, has 4x e1000 plus plenty pcie lanes
<implr> but almost every distro dropped support and a decent portion of software I tried doesn't compile
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<rqou> yeah, these systems are both interesting and kinda frustrating
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<rqou> it's a very different experience than playing with eproms and 5 inch floppy disks
<gruetzkopf> i do have a sun t2000
<gruetzkopf> fun machine
<Zorix> i had one for a while at work
<gruetzkopf> also have 90s big iron mips64
<gruetzkopf> and ofc powermac g5 with its PPC970 "power4 plus altivec"
<Zorix> you dont have retro cred unless you have several commodore machines heh
<rqou> i do have a commodore machine
<rqou> it's a pain to interface with
<Zorix> easier these days, lot of options
<cr1901_modern> I have a VIC-20, but there's really nothing I can do w/ it at present
<cr1901_modern> https://github.com/cr1901/MS-DOS Oh, and I'm writing my own OS now
<Zorix> very nice
<gruetzkopf> c64 *3, c128, a500*3, a2000
<gruetzkopf> amstrad cpc
<cr1901_modern> I want an amiga but too expensive. The current 68k machine I'm eyeing is a Mac Perfoma
<cr1901_modern> cheap and easy to set up (I hope)
<Zorix> vic-20, sx-64, c128 x2, amiga 500, amiga 2000, amiga 4000 x2
<TAL> a VIC (from MOS, not Commodore) would be a great starting point to build an IC replacement for
<gruetzkopf> about a cubic meter of sparc32
<Zorix> making replacement MOS/CSG chips is on my long term to do list
<Zorix> course i want it to be in PDIP and PLCC original packaging
<cr1901_modern> I want in on that
<gruetzkopf> do buster v11
<Zorix> yea buster v11 is a good idea
<Zorix> my current project involves ata/atapi
<cr1901_modern> you're doing an ata asic?
<gruetzkopf> and a stack of more or less interesting x86 stuff
<cr1901_modern> Bring back the 286
<gruetzkopf> 386 with 256MiB ram
<gruetzkopf> serial 17
<cr1901_modern> serial 17?
<Zorix> im going to make a board that replaces atapi cdrom drives in old computers so it can take disc images and become the atapi device
<gruetzkopf> of that board
<cr1901_modern> Wait, there actually _was_ a 386 that accepted 256MiB of RAM?
<cr1901_modern> plus corresponding chipset*
<gruetzkopf> "chipset"
<gruetzkopf> all PLDs
<gruetzkopf> 16*16MiB SIMM
<TD-Linux> Zorix, would b neat
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: ? There were 386 chipsets. There were 286 chipsets too (NEAT from Chips and Technologies)
* qu1j0t3 did a client side ATAPI impl for PIC18
<gruetzkopf> yeah, but not on this board
<rqou> Zorix: uh, isn't that exactly lain's product?
<cr1901_modern> so it had two discrete 8237s, two 8259s, an 8253?
<Zorix> rqou, no idea, dont know anyone else's project
<Zorix> im only doing it because im tired of waiting for someone else to do it, and it gives me an excuse to learn hardware development
<gruetzkopf> yes, plus memory controller in PLDs
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: Can I see it :o?
<rqou> wait gruetzkopf a weird 386 board full of PLDs?
<gruetzkopf> industrial control stuff
<rqou> oh nvm
<rqou> i was thinking Everex
<gruetzkopf> it's also a ISA card in a passive plane
<cr1901_modern> Do you have a photo?
<gruetzkopf> it's deep down in the stack :|
<cr1901_modern> 286 with all DIPs/discrete components is "normal"; well, the IBM AT is such a board anyway
<cr1901_modern> And there's a few clones w/ all DIPs too
<TAL> ya, 386 really had more or less two eras
<cr1901_modern> but I'm not sure I've ever seen a 386 with discrete MCS-85 parts
<cr1901_modern> TAL: Well, the 386 came out the year after the IBM AT; it's _plausible_ that ppl designed totally discrete motherboards around it.
<cr1901_modern> I've never seen one of course
<lain> Zorix: my product is similar, but it's USB instead of ATAPI: https://isostick.com
<cr1901_modern> The memory controller PLD on gruetzkopf's board was probably for convenience; the AT's "memory controller" is discrete TTL
<cr1901_modern> and a delay line
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: Are the 8237s/8259s PLCC packages?
<cr1901_modern> on this industrial board
<gruetzkopf> most of it is iirc
<Zorix> lain, i think i have seen that before, neat
<lain> :3
<gruetzkopf> else there'd be no chance to get it on a full-length ISA card together with FDC, ATA, par/ser and keyboard and the 16 simms
<awygle> lain: wow, cool. I could have used this on Monday lol
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: That's why I would've thought it used a chipset that combines the DMA controller, interrupt controller, times, etc into a single chip
<cr1901_modern> instead of using discrete chips for that
<lain> awygle: I need to get sales back up lol, switched to manufacturing them in-house and then another project came up and I haven't had time to finish tuning the reflow process :x
<lain> soon™
<awygle> haha
<awygle> #relatable
<gruetzkopf> i have a slightly older related model
<gruetzkopf> only 8 slots, and ST508 instead of AT
<lain> unrelated: fcc pls post my callsign so I can derp around with transmit
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: ST-506?
<gruetzkopf> oh yeah
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: https://twitter.com/cr1901/status/496307342561271810 I have one of those :P
<cr1901_modern> It still works
<gruetzkopf> sure
<gruetzkopf> only 5.25" hdds are have are some quantum bigfoots
<cr1901_modern> bigfoot was a weird form factor.
<cr1901_modern> not quite half-height like a CD-ROM
<awygle> "quantum bigfoots" is the best name
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<lain> :D
<lain> they had the most satisfying clicky sounds
<awygle> i have a usb hard drive that makes clicky sounds ... but it's not very satisfying :/
<lain> D:
<awygle> i just got finished backing it up a couple days ago, it can click all it wants now
<awygle> but it does mean i need to get another >1TB external drive
<gruetzkopf> in the past i have used a bigfoot as a portable usb/fw drive
<gruetzkopf> for trolling purposes
<lain> lol
<gruetzkopf> (CS teacher wanted homework on a usb drive. biiiig mistake, got a different media type every time)
<lain> XD
<rqou> lololol
<TD-Linux> still love my MO drive. I've got USB ones too
<TD-Linux> most cyberpunk storage format
<lain> ^ this
<gruetzkopf> i have some SCSI gigamo drives
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<feuerrot> https://i.imgur.com/1IgiSm2.jpg - how? (according to reddit it was a shipping incident)
<lain> D:
<lain> a large impact could have sheared them off, given the large heatsink mass attached to them
<cpresser> use column grid array to prevent this
<lain> it's also possible the reflow was done improperly and didn't fully wet the pads
<lain> creating a weak joint to begin with
<lain> this is a solid argument for attaching the heatsink to the board :P
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<sorear> cpresser: TIL
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<lain> for maximum irony, be sure to use a BGA socket for your column grid array chip