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<cr1901_modern> Is transparent RAM another name for "write first" mode, or do vendors make a subtle distinction in their model parameters?
<whitequark> transparent RAM means that in case of read-write address collision between any ports, the read data is the same as written data
<whitequark> vendor semantics is often more complex, e.g. only collisions between some ports are defined
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<_whitenotifier-3> [Boneless-CPU] zignig commented on pull request #4: directives bikeshed - https://git.io/fjX4O
<_whitenotifier-3> [Boneless-CPU] whitequark commented on pull request #4: directives bikeshed - https://git.io/fjX4Z
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<eddyb> so this seems neat http://radiona.org/ulx3s/
<eddyb> but its comparison table says 0 for SERDES, that seems a bit disappointing? is it just not exposing SERDES available in the FPGA or does it only come with FPGAs without SERDES?
<eddyb> oh huh "ECP5 85F" is confusingly eliding the LFE5U part which has an UM instead of U to indicate it comes with SERDES
<daveshah> Yup no SERDES and the pins aren't broken out
<daveshah> (the non SERDES parts are obviously the same die with a possibly-out-of-spec SERDES, but if the pins aren't accessible that doesn't really help)
<eddyb> specifically, http://radiona.org/ulx3s/#comparisons doesn't give the full model numbers :(
<eddyb> also, 1 SERDES for Versa? not sure that seems right given everything it offers
<daveshah> Yeah it has four SERDES channels in total
<daveshah> One for PCIe, one broken out to SMAs, two used for a SGMII connection to the Ethernet PHYs (these also have RGMII)
<daveshah> Also, it has 1024Mb of RAM not 1024MB
<eddyb> daveshah: and each channel is duplex?
<daveshah> Yes
<daveshah> The EVN also has four duplex channels, not "9 SERDES" (the one extra pair is a reference clock input)
<eddyb> (the off-by-half errors can get frustrating when it's not obvious what is being counted :P)
<eddyb> thanks!
<flea86> eddyb: To give you a better understanding of their comparison table, their board and my own FleaFPGA Ohm board don't break out serdes in any way :)
<flea86> (but I think all of the others do)
<eddyb> flea86: I'm kinda curious what these boards are designed for. mostly to take advantage of the higher LUT count (compared to iCE40)? parallel LVDS?
<flea86> Well, the ECP5 series is cheap, yet useful, in the manner you describe. Yes.
<eddyb> I kinda just want a tiny-ass board that's mostly just a PCIe x1 board edge and an ECP5 :P
<flea86> It's also fun :D
<flea86> heh
<eddyb> bonus points for having a version that can plug into my X230 thinkpad
<eddyb> I forget what standard that is even using (at this point it might be easier to design myself such a board, doubt anyone is going to)
<flea86> eddyb: You want a miniPCIe thingy ;)
<eddyb> flea86: no, externally
<flea86> Oh
<eddyb> ExpressCard/54
<flea86> Ah right
<flea86> I've only danced around with more GPIO breakout for my Ohm www.fleasystems.com/images/FleaFPGA_Ohm_PCIe.png
<flea86> yes, feel free to laugh :)
<eddyb> flea86: what is that on the bottom
<flea86> hmm?
<eddyb> can you MiTM USB with it?
<eddyb> flea86: wait hang on I just noticed the cardedge - what's that?
<flea86> Well, there are two micro-USB host ports wired directly to the FPGA (for use with USB host softcores) as well as one USB slave/Power in
<flea86> PCIe x1 :)
<flea86> (the form factor - no serdes sorry)
<eddyb> erm I need to count the pads for some reason I thought PCIe was smaller
<flea86> "I've only danced around with more GPIO breakout"
<flea86> Pretty sure that's mini PCIe?
<flea86> I also tried the same thing with m2 :P
<flea86> but the PCB thickness is too narrow for good mechanical support IMHO
<flea86> for m2
<flea86> *m2 version
<eddyb> flea86: ooooh I haven't seen miniPCIe in a while, and I was just looking at the Versa. that makes sense now
<eddyb> flea86: but really, what are you doing with all of that USB? :D
<flea86> eddyb: Well, one for USB mouse, one for USB keyboard... for retro applications (for now)
<flea86> I'm just a hobbyist myself
<flea86> certainly not in the same league as dave :)
<flea86> just fooling around with the tech because it is fun
<eddyb> huh I would've thought all 3 connectors are microUSB
<eddyb> if you can't tell the scale is really messing with me here :P
<flea86> They are. Right-most connector is USB slave / Power-in
<flea86> It is modelled on the raspi-zero
<eddyb> okay I'm just not used to an USB host with micro USB, but I can see the practical reasons for doing that
<flea86> haha yeah try assembling them :D
<eddyb> so you have to use one of those "OTG adapters" or w/e?
<eddyb> to actually connect a mouse & keyboard?
<flea86> yeah, to Type-A host adapter cables
<flea86> one sec.
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<eddyb> daveshah: oh, one more thing: I was looking at XAUI earlier and it sounded like even the non-5G ECP5s would be able to do it, with 4 duplex channels, does that sound right?
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<daveshah> Yes, XAUI would be fine for the slower SERDES too
<daveshah> The 5G parts have faster fabric though
<eddyb> (I incorrectly assumed "4 SERDES" meant two in each direction or something)
<eddyb> haha so cool
<eddyb> why does searching google for "gpdi general purpose differential interface" only result in that ULX3S board?!
<daveshah> Because its just non strictly compliant HDMI ;)
<eddyb> oh so it is physically an HDMI connector?
<daveshah> Yes
<daveshah> And mostly electrically compatible
<flea86> Just don't run long cable lengths with it, and you'll be fine.
<eddyb> okay I see, and the table suggests you could do Ethernet over it too, presumably using some sort of *MII, or maybe even directly(?)
<daveshah> That is HDMI aux channel Ethernet
<eddyb> oh god why did I have to be reminded that is a thing Q_Q
<daveshah> I don't think anyone has tested that, I don't know what it even looks like electrically
<whitequark> cursed. it is cursed
<eddyb> can HDMI monitors access the internet through it given a suitable... host on the other end, or what
<eddyb> I assume most GPUs out there ignore that part completely?
<eddyb> wait this GPDI is kinda like running PCIe over USB3 cables isn't it? except IIRC HDMI has more lanes
<eddyb> mood: failed verification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HEC
<eddyb> assuming you can't trust the I2C lines, you get up to 5 twisted pairs for HDMI, which is one more than RJ45
<flea86> eddyb: Well, you can also treat it as straight-up four/five LVDS pairs/lanes (GPDI)
<daveshah> On the ULX3S revisions I have (may have been fixed), it uses top bank IO pins that can't be differential inputs or true differential outputs (but pseudo differential output is fine for HDMI)
<flea86> daveshah: I see.
<eddyb> flea86: right, that's what I meant. I guess the advantage to HDMI is they're optimizing for video output (and it can do other stuff), and HDMI is larger anyway
<eddyb> so it would be annoying if you had RJ45 connected straight to the FPGA and you needed to mess around with the other HDMI lines, you'd have a really ugly adaptor
<whitequark> you need a PHY for ethernet over copper though, generally
<whitequark> 100BASE-T is analog
<eddyb> whereas the other way around it seems like you should be able to use the main 4 differential pairs in a HDMI cable to pass... oh dammit
<daveshah> Unless you are azonenberg (still needs a fair few resistors IIRC) :p
<whitequark> daveshah: iirc that was 10BASE-T?
<whitequark> might be a different hack
<daveshah> I thought he did 100BASE-T too
<flea86> hah yeah that was a neat hack
<daveshah> on Spartan-6
<flea86> I think so
<whitequark> oh huh
<daveshah> It is only 3 levels
<whitequark> ohhh, it's PAM3
<whitequark> i thought it's PAM5 for some reason
<gruetzkopf> ECP5 on expresscard is something i'm looking into
<eddyb> whitequark: according to wikipedia, 100BASE-T1 is PAM3, 100BASE-T2 is PAM5 and 100BASE-TX is MLT-3
<gruetzkopf> just don't want to give the glaswegians money for the jtag interface
<flea86> daveshah: Looks like it's still pseudo-lvds only (latest ulx3s schematic)
<eddyb> gruetzkopf: I found some stuff like this but it's confusing https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32570818489.html
<eddyb> gruetzkopf: but presumably there is a way to plug a PCIe x1 into EspressCard?
<eddyb> gruetzkopf: I'm guessing part of the trouble is it's been dead for so long :P
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<gruetzkopf> stuff like that exists / is easily DIYws
<gruetzkopf> *DIYed
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<eddyb> haha
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<azonenberg> whitequark: it's not PAM-3
<azonenberg> with PAM you can go from any symbol to any other symbol
<azonenberg> MLT-3 only allows one transition at any given time, your choices are change or no-change
<azonenberg> you have no choice of which symbol to change to
<azonenberg> so it's just a weird NRZI coding
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<whitequark> ahh
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<pie_> gruetzkopf, not the first time im seeing that but for a second there i thought you hot-glued the wires to the card pins
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<azonenberg> whitequark: basically MLT3 is one bit per symbol, PAM3 is 1.5
<azonenberg> and the eye pattern looks different too
<azonenberg> you need less slew/bandwidth for MLT because it's pseudo sinusoidal
<azonenberg> you never have to go from the +1 to -1 state in one UI
<azonenberg> and it always takes at least four UIs to go through the whole sinusoidal pattern
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<eddyb> eternaleye found this
<eddyb> aww, flea86 left
<gruetzkopf> that's on the expensive end
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<eddyb> hang on... I just looked at the DP data rates, it seems like you could output 1440p @ 60Hz or 4K @ 30Hz from an ECP5. maybe I've got something wrong?
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<eddyb> AFAICT you can't do the same with HDMI because it goes above 5Gbps
<eddyb> (but, again, I might be misreading the tables on wikipedia)
<eddyb> someone motivated enough might even build something cool on top of DP DSC and Adaptive Sync
<eddyb> hardware cursor rendering could be really smooth and not need that high of a data rate
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