ChanServ changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, and CD theory of operation are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
<andlabs> [17:01:07] <l_oliveira>can you play VGMs on it?
<andlabs> [17:01:29] <l_oliveira>Different purposes, no?
<andlabs> you would need to process the VGM data and produce the correct MIDI commands / sysex messages
<l_oliveira> first line was for Whooa
<andlabs> someone wrote a program to do this with YM2151 vgms
<andlabs> oh
<l_oliveira> second line for you
<andlabs> well I'm still not sure what hte purpose of this thing is
<l_oliveira> The FB module is just a midi instrument, no?
<andlabs> but I do know the FB-01 is a piece of pro audio equipment with a YM2151 (or really that weird "OPP" equivalent that Yamaha also made)
<andlabs> and yes, you can use it to play each channel independently with different sounds
<andlabs> maybe one day I'll cave in and get a CX-5M
<andlabs> they are surprisingly common on ebay, but you won't ifnd one for under $450 (or $400 without the piano keyboard)
<l_oliveira> It's a YM2151 with an extra latch for DRM lock in
<andlabs> is there a joke I'm missing here
<l_oliveira> YM2164 ,no?
<l_oliveira> or is it the one which is like "OPN
<andlabs> what does DRM have to do with this
<andlabs> this isn't a VST
<l_oliveira> "OPM2"
<andlabs> YM2164
<andlabs> same as the DX100 and some Korg (!) devices
<andlabs> and that one weird super-rare IBM thing
<cr1901_modern> There's a few DRM'd Yamaha chips
<cr1901_modern> another one shuffles the reg map around
<l_oliveira> It's a YM2151 with some stupid DRM
<l_oliveira> and a change on the timer2 resolution
<l_oliveira> it's to keep people from making clones of these expensive modules with just the YM2151 chip
<cr1901_modern> How'd that work out?
<l_oliveira> software piracy ? (copy the firmware)
<l_oliveira> didn't people copy very complex arcade boards from namco, sega and other companies back in the 80s for high margins of profit?
<andlabs> yeah
<andlabs> but I don't know how
<cr1901_modern> It was a joke
<andlabs> and those arcade boards used the YM2151
<l_oliveira> I am just making a parallel
<cr1901_modern> l_oliveira: People made a NES PPU from discrete chips in the 80's
<andlabs> and now I'm asking a serious question
<cr1901_modern> nothing surprises me anymore
<andlabs> how DID people make clones of arcade boards
<l_oliveira> if it was possible to copy much more complex computers for arcade games, why people would not copy midi modules?
<l_oliveira> they would reverse engineer the chips, sanding down and decapping the chips
<andlabs> and the gazillion Genesis clones that existed *in* the 90s
<l_oliveira> analyzing the buses
<andlabs> and why do we still have emulation issues if that was the case
<l_oliveira> I have two SNES clones
<cr1901_modern> andlabs: B/c knowledge wasn't xferred properly I assume
<l_oliveira> one of them is capable of playing SA1 games
<l_oliveira> both can play Super FX games
<andlabs> if people can make super exact YM2612 clones
<andlabs> why are we still struggling
<cr1901_modern> B/c it takes a long time and energy to RE even one chip
<cr1901_modern> ?
<l_oliveira> we can't make chips. The Korean folks who made these SNES chips and clone systems could
<andlabs> okay, but that still implies we know *how*
<l_oliveira> There were Genesis clones from Korea and Taiwan, both were different
<cr1901_modern> Idk about you andlabs, but I lack the money to even try getting a clone of _any_ Yamaha chip made
<l_oliveira> The Korean clone was based on a VA3 Genesis chipset, Taiwan one was VA6
<andlabs> it is strange that the information has NOT transferred
<cr1901_modern> I could barely afford to make a 7400
<cr1901_modern> from scratch
<andlabs> a quad nand gate?
<l_oliveira> making a chip is trade secret
<cr1901_modern> yes
<andlabs> that's eight transistors =P
<l_oliveira> people live and get ric from working on that
<l_oliveira> rich
<cr1901_modern> it's f***ing expensive
<cr1901_modern> Like "Prophet-6 new" expensive
<l_oliveira> so common folks can barely play with the 40 yrs old original tech, right? lol
<cr1901_modern> Jeri Ellsworth and Sam Zeloof can both make their own chips
<cr1901_modern> although only the latter does
<cr1901_modern> AIUI
<andlabs> yeah
<cr1901_modern> There's also someone in Japan who fabbed their own blinky IC for a contest to turn a lightbulb on and off
<cr1901_modern> but I don't remember who they are
<andlabs> because capitalism
<andlabs> it's time to end this shit
<andlabs> raid the clone makers and steal the schematics
<cr1901_modern> The SuperFX schematics don't exist anymore
<andlabs> the only other excuse I can come up with is corporate espionage
<cr1901_modern> I asked Carl Graham about them privately
<cr1901_modern> they were lost in a flood
<andlabs> no, I mean the clone schematics
<cr1901_modern> Oh, well... there's your fun fact for the day :)
<andlabs> the only other excuse as to how chips were cloned back then that I can reasonably come up with is espionage
<andlabs> that the clone chips were either made by the fabs that made the real ones
<andlabs> or by some other fab that made a backroom deal
<cr1901_modern> Regardless of how they were cloned, they would've been clone in a way that wouldn't make the original manufacturers happy
<andlabs> because the fabs aren't owned by the companies that design the chips
<andlabs> lol this is east asia
<andlabs> the wild wild west of piracy
<andlabs> we wouldn't have a dendy if that was the case
<andlabs> anyway now I'm depressed, and I said I was going to head home 20 minutes ago
<andlabs> bbl
<l_oliveira> Super FX was developed on a FPGA
<l_oliveira> you think they no longer have the original design? Of course they do
<andlabs> that's only if the Super FX chip itself is a FPGA
<andlabs> if the chip that was mass-produced is a PLA, ULA, or ASIC then that's not the case
<andlabs> oh yeah also
<cr1901_modern> If one of the SuperFX designers told me the design was lost in a flood, and _another_ person who worked at Argonaut at the same time confirmed to me there was a flood...
<andlabs> the OPP "DRM" is meh in the end
<cr1901_modern> I'm inclined to believe them
<l_oliveira> I had not seen the flood line, I just saw on the scroll >.>
<andlabs> you'll need to ask someone who has a Super FX game to open their cart and confirm that the chip in the actual carts are FPGA
<andlabs> also I highly doubt the FPGAs of 1994 had enough gates for something like the Super FX
<l_oliveira> andlabs, it can be developed in any form
<andlabs> the original FPGA from 1984 had only 64 gates
<l_oliveira> once it is "solid" they move it into a permanent design which likely will be made into a ASIC
<andlabs> I was talking to l_oliveira
<cr1901_modern> andlabs: No, it had 64 LUTs
<andlabs> responding to
<cr1901_modern> it's really not a good idea to compare LUTs to gates
<andlabs> [21:20:25] <l_oliveira>Super FX was developed on a FPGA
<andlabs> [21:20:41] <l_oliveira>you think they no longer have the original design? Of course they do
<andlabs> whatever it is I don't know
<cr1901_modern> Right and I was giving you a tweet telling you that SuperFX was split between 2 FPGAs :P
<andlabs> oh
<andlabs> heh
<andlabs> I thought that was just a link to the flood thing
<l_oliveira> FPGA is like ASIC EPROM lol
<andlabs> anyway I need to head home now
<l_oliveira> or ASIC EEPROM (better wording actually)
<andlabs> when I reconnect I need suggestions for a genesis cart dumper
<andlabs> that's a bit more pertinent
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<l_oliveira> what is that arduino with a really big AVR controller? 2580?
<l_oliveira> the one arcade hacker used to reprogram these FD modules from Hitachi that SEGA loved to use as protection back in the late 80s and early 90s
* cr1901_modern shrugs
<l_oliveira> that arduino could be made into a Mega Drive cart dumper easily
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<andlabs> oh also the problem with manufacturing chips yourself is that it is actually very dangerous
<andlabs> you are dealing with some actual hardcore acids
<andlabs> Sam Zeloof actually posts youtube videos with all the insturctions and I hope you are interested in dealing with things even more potent than sulfuric acid
<cr1901_modern> I live on the second floor. How am I getting a f***ing electron microscope up there in the first place?
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<KitsuWhooa> <andlabs> when I reconnect I need suggestions for a genesis cart dumper <-- if you have a sega cd you can use that to dump carts
<KitsuWhooa> you can also take the mask rom out and plop it to a programmer
<KitsuWhooa> I see your parsed the table
<KitsuWhooa> congrats!
<KitsuWhooa> ZirconiumX: ^
<ValleyBell> thanks
<ValleyBell> It has 3 loop modes.
<ValleyBell> 0 = normal looping, 1 = no loop, 2 = flip-flop
<KitsuWhooa> flipflop?
<KitsuWhooa> :p
<ValleyBell> play the loop part fowards, then backwards, then forwards again
<KitsuWhooa> oh wow :p
<ValleyBell> The very first sample even uses this.
<ZirconiumX> That's pretty neat honestly.
<ValleyBell> indeed
<KitsuWhooa> I wonder if any file managers can sort by hex out there
<ValleyBell> I think I disabled numeric sorting in Windows Explorer.
<ValleyBell> There is some registry setting that allows you to do that.
<KitsuWhooa> I think sorting by modification date might work for these
<KitsuWhooa> I'd assume the script would dump them sequentially, but maybe they don't have them in order in the eproms
<ValleyBell> Yeah, numeric sorting is really annoying, IMO.
<KitsuWhooa> I don't mind it, as long as it can put 1 before 10
<KitsuWhooa> :p
<ValleyBell> The order in the ROMs is completely random.
<KitsuWhooa> Well, I'd say it's less random and more placed in such a way to fit in all three
<ValleyBell> yes, of course
<ValleyBell> I think I should take a break of 32P research for a few days and do something else :P
<ValleyBell> In order to figure out the remaining unknown fields I need to understand what the firmware does.
<ValleyBell> ... I just wonder where I got the term "flip-flop loop" from
<ValleyBell> I think I read it somewhere related to MOD/XM/IT files
<ValleyBell> Or maybe I just confused it with "Ping-Pong"
<ValleyBell> yeah, I think that's it
<KitsuWhooa> that makes more sense
<KitsuWhooa> I was thinking of flipflop as keep looping until reset :p
<andlabs> fwiw it files support this type of looping too
<andlabs> maybe xm files but IDK
<andlabs> time for |ST-01 Improved? =P
<andlabs> KitsuWhooa: yes but wouldn't you need to override /CART to do that?
<KitsuWhooa> andlabs: just put a piece of tape on the pin in the cart temporarily
<KitsuWhooa> I've done, it works :p
<KitsuWhooa> Hmmm, I could use that to figure out what's wrong with my 32X that doesn't boot cartridges
<andlabs> heh
<KitsuWhooa> I know the console works because it boots SEGA CD 32X games
<KitsuWhooa> Never thought I'd be willingly trying to play one of those
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<KitsuWhooa> Hm, I wonder if I can get the scdtransfer software to run in wine
<andlabs> 32X has good games o.o
<KitsuWhooa> Doom should've been one of those games
<KitsuWhooa> Maybe it wouldn't have had a fart soundtrack then
<l_oliveira> kolibri was a bit slow action wise but it looked nice and was interesting
<l_oliveira> tempo was funny
<KitsuWhooa> I am referring specifically to CD 32X games though. All of them are amazing FMV games
<l_oliveira> the sound system on 32x sucks, though. PWM? seriously
<KitsuWhooa> that's still no excuse for doom 32x to sound like farts :p
<KitsuWhooa> There's a 2612 and the PSG too
<l_oliveira> and the ricoh
<l_oliveira> since you're talking sega cd
<KitsuWhooa> well, doom 32x wasn't on the cd, but yes
<KitsuWhooa> with the cd they could've had it as cd da
<KitsuWhooa> didn't even need the ricoh chip :p
<l_oliveira> YM2612 + Ricoh is good enough
<l_oliveira> look the FM Towns games with good music
<KitsuWhooa> I'm not saying it's not
<KitsuWhooa> but doom 32x was clearly rushed
<KitsuWhooa> and it would take 0 effort to record midi music and put it on a cd
<l_oliveira> everything, including the mushroom itself were a rushjob
<KitsuWhooa> that's true :p
<l_oliveira> it was a waste of good SH2 cpus actually
<KitsuWhooa> The Saturn is great though <3
<l_oliveira> you know the last run units they said "fuck it" and ended stuffing 28Mhz chips on?
<KitsuWhooa> wait, what? :p
<l_oliveira> the normal ones had 23Mhz SH2s
<l_oliveira> they still run at 23Mhz, though
<KitsuWhooa> ha
<l_oliveira> they likely were saying goodbye to them
<l_oliveira> and needed to sell them off
<l_oliveira> making more of the 23Mhz chips would be more expensive than take out from the Saturn line
<KitsuWhooa> makes sense
<l_oliveira> I've taken plenty of dead saturns to the gutter
<l_oliveira> harvest SH2s to fix CPS3 cartridges
<KitsuWhooa> poor things :p
<l_oliveira> CPS3 are worth more than dead saturns really
<andlabs> [09:44:16] <l_oliveira>the sound system on 32x sucks, though. PWM? seriously
<andlabs> it doesn't help that sega never properly documented the thing
<l_oliveira> Sounds like Yamaha lol
<andlabs> the 32X documentation (or at least the Rex Sabio leak of it) is a wonderful exercise in "what the hell are we doing"
<l_oliveira> Yamaha intentionally made their datasheets poor and confusing to make it harder for people to copy their chips
<andlabs> yes but that's what the application programming manual is for
<andlabs> in Sega's case I'm sure it's incompetence more than anything
<KitsuWhooa> incompetence and rush :p
<l_oliveira> lol yep
<l_oliveira> Yamaha tells them that YM2612 has no SSG.
<l_oliveira> They see SSG on "SSG EG" and assume that is unusable and put that into the sound manual
<l_oliveira> That's on the Genesis sound manual
<andlabs> of course that's to our benefit
<andlabs> easy to use Genesis FM voices on OPM and even DX-7 =P
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<l_oliveira> A lot of important games use SSG EG and multi frequency operators on channel3, though
<l_oliveira> Hitoshi Sakimoto and Yuzo Koshiro's stuff to mention some
<ValleyBell> I ... don't think Koshiro used ch3 mode and SSG-EG a lot.
<ValleyBell> Streets Of Rage 1 doesn't even have SSG-EG support.
<ValleyBell> and I'm pretty sure he didn't use the ch3 multi-frequency mode in Ys 1/2/3.
<ValleyBell> Especially SSG-EG was rarely used, which is why Gens never got it right.
<ValleyBell> (on the bell instrument right at the beginning)
<Sarayan> Also, to be honest, the SSG doesn't really sound good
<Sarayan> it's damn harsh with its square waves
<l_oliveira> SSG is good lol
<l_oliveira> also people do good drums with them
<l_oliveira> very common on high end PC98 music
<andlabs> [15:08:08] <ValleyBell>and I'm pretty sure he didn't use the ch3 multi-frequency mode in Ys 1
<andlabs> Feena
<andlabs> PC-88 version
<Sarayan> good drums on SSG? You need to turn one channel into a poor man's sample player to have any kind of decent drum there
<Sarayan> unless... I may be fucking up with the acronyms
<Xyz39808> what is Konami Snare?
<Sarayan> The ym2149, that's... ?
<ValleyBell> oohh, Feena uses multi-freq mode? neat
<Sarayan> yeah, that's the SSG
<Sarayan> As the (proud?) owner of an atari st, I can say that the SSG is not really good
<ValleyBell> We were actually talking about the "SSG-EG", which is the only leftover of the SSG on the YM2612.
<andlabs> we'll just agree to disagree
<ValleyBell> Asterix without SSG-EG emulation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eavi2heEgsQ
<andlabs> the Genesis has a SN76489 so we don't miss much
<ValleyBell> The SN76489 would've been soooo much better if they had at least 11-bit frequencies.
<andlabs> (the SN76489 has independent noise channel and the AY-3-8910 has a more dense frequency range but otherwise they're the same)
<andlabs> ValleyBell: oh wow that sounds very different
<andlabs> I find it odd that no one used SSG-EG *except* a company that didn't grow up with other OPN family chips
<andlabs> also you may need ot investigate Feena yourself; I only assume it uses multifrequency mode from looking at hoot's piano visualizer and how ch3 has four notes playing
<ValleyBell> ahh, okay
<ValleyBell> Hoot always shows ch3 as 4 separate lines for OPN, I think.
<andlabs> yes, but they are playing four separate notes
<ValleyBell> even if the game doesn't have multi-frequency mode enabled
<andlabs> the piano chords after the intro
<andlabs> actually I have vgm2txt output here already
<andlabs> well I appear to be completely wrong, maybe
<ValleyBell> According to Hoot it enabled multi-frequency mode (register 27h = 37Ah) and writes to the multi-freq registers.
<ValleyBell> *27h = 7Ah
<ValleyBell> (values 00..3F = disabled, 40..7F = multi-freq mode enabled)
<ValleyBell> but I don't see it using different frequencies on the 4 operators
<ValleyBell> I think most sound drivers implement the multi-freq mode in a way that doesn't let you use it for anything but drums.
<andlabs> yeah I'm wrong
<andlabs> sorry
<ValleyBell> np
<andlabs> 4481b 0 2:30B 1 2:30B 2 2:30B 3 2:30B
<andlabs> Pietros-MBP:packs pietro$ awk -f multifreq.awk Ys_-_Ancient_Ys_Vanished_Omen_\(NEC_PC-8801\)/01\ Feena.txt | awk '$3 != $5'
<andlabs> Pietros-MBP:packs pietro$
<ValleyBell> I know SMPS lets you define a set of constant values that are added to the raw frequency.
<ValleyBell> ... and that's it. You can't even trigger the operators separately.
<ValleyBell> The PMD driver is really awesome in that regard.
<ValleyBell> Oh, I also just noticed that Hoot lets you enable/disable the multi-ch3-freq display using an XML option. (name="showfm3ex" value="0x01")
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