ChanServ changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, and CD theory of operation are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
<Foone>
right. I'm not actually worrying about the "how do _I_ use the disk" problem right now, I'm trying to figure out how to best distribute it to other people.
<Foone>
I want to provide an image that'll be easiest for others to use
<balrog>
Do you have any 400K/800K?
<Foone>
DC42 would probably be better than DC6 then, since I imagine it's backward but not forward compatible
<Foone>
nope, just 1.44mb
<balrog>
we're missing tons of stuff from the copy protected era
<Foone>
oh, I meant "no" for this project. in general, oh yes. I have plenty of 400k/800k disks.
<balrog>
If you have copy protected games you'll probably need to acquire an Applesauce
<Foone>
I have a 3.5" unidisk plus an applesauce though
<balrog>
Ah you do.
<balrog>
a 3.5" Unidisk, or a 3.5" 800K Drive?
<balrog>
the 3.5" Unidisk can't be used with the Applesauce
<andlabs|2>
because the classic mac community are probably bitter that stuffit never caught on
<andlabs|2>
so they'll just continue using it for distributing archived software until the world submits
<Foone>
uhh... good question. don't recall off the top of my head. I think I specifically made sure it was the one I could use with applesauce, because that's why I got it
<balrog>
Did you also get a SuperDrive mechanism to upgrade it with?
<andlabs|2>
would probably help if:
<andlabs|2>
a) ther weren't two incompatible versions of stuffit archive files
<Foone>
balrog: nope. it's on my todo list though, after talking with diskblitz
<balrog>
Foone: ahh. Because then you can do 1.44MB drives and all
<andlabs|2>
b) there weren't other ways to handle resource forks (applesingle, appledouble, binhex)
<andlabs|2>
that was in response to [15:04:21] <balrog why do people keep suggesting crap like this ><
<balrog>
Foone: ah I see you're on the slack
<andlabs|2>
which slack
<balrog>
Apple II
<Foone>
technically? I don't think I've been active in ages.
<andlabs|2>
oh
<Foone>
anyway to clarify: I have the disks imaged just fine. the .img look fine and I've got stream copies, so imaging them is not a problem
<Foone>
I'm just wanting to provide them in the best possible format (or format(s)) for retro mac users to use
<balrog>
You don't particularly need even a Kryoflux for 1.44MB disks
<balrog>
Though I did recover one problem disk using both a USB floppy drive and an Applesauce
<andlabs|2>
anywasy yes my answer would be
<Foone>
fun!
<andlabs|2>
raw flux dump AND bmow-compatible format
<balrog>
Some Japanese art project containing a single Flash animation :p
<Foone>
ahh, right, bmow! I have one of those emulators but I don't think I have any powermacs I can test it on
<balrog>
Foone: I guess what I'm saying is that it's worth having more methods and more kinds of drives since you end up with this mess where one drive recovers some sectors and another recovers other sectors
<Foone>
the only mac in the Power-era I have is a G3 which is missing some of the connectors I'd want
<balrog>
which G3?
<andlabs|2>
if only the floppy emu wasn't so damn picky about disk format sizes
<Foone>
balrog: right, yeah. I had to do a bit of that with another related disk in this set
<andlabs|2>
love having to download the same game multiple times to find a rip that won't error out randomly
<Foone>
balrog: an imac
<andlabs|2>
decoded disk image formats are hard let's go shopping
<Foone>
one of the other disks is for DOS and the .IMG file I'll be shipping is actually a combination of like three reads with some hacking from the HXE tools and hex editing to combine them, to work around a bad sector
<andlabs|2>
ooh
<andlabs|2>
I've actually wondered about doing something with a problem disk
<andlabs|2>
the FAT is fine but one file is gone
<andlabs|2>
and I'm wondering if I can somehow amplify the flux signals to get the file back
<andlabs|2>
that it's probably a tolerance issue
<andlabs|2>
IDK
<andlabs|2>
that's just a pipe dream fantasy in my head
<andlabs|2>
ultra hacker data recovery
<andlabs|2>
also I'd prefer non-kryoflux flux formats because I want to keep things away from both kryoflux and the SPS
<andlabs|2>
strong disagree with both companies
<Foone>
probably not with existing tools. that's been proposed before but it's never really been demonstrated outside of a lab, last I heard
<Foone>
yeah, they're a mess
<balrog>
Foone: the Applesauce software has a disk editor that can be used to compare and join such dumps
<balrog>
it's pretty powerful
<balrog>
andlabs|2: I think philpem tried to do that
<Foone>
sadly right now the kryoflux is my best working flux imager (for non-apple stuff, at least) so I have to keep using it
<Foone>
my supercardpro is glitchy and/or dead, and none of my flux engine or greaseweazles work
<balrog>
Foone: the Applesauce at this point is probably the best working flux imager for any disk that can work in an Apple drive
<andlabs|2>
I still need to figure out why my flux engine doesn't work
<andlabs|2>
and I still need to make the cable for glasgow
<balrog>
The next PCB update will also have a 34pin port though
<Foone>
oh, nifty
<andlabs|2>
I could use that thing that ncommander uses but I really don't want to becasue of proprietaryness
<Foone>
because my main reason for sticking with kryoflux is because 99% of things I imagine are DOS/Windows 3.5" disks
<Foone>
HD ones
<andlabs|2>
balrog: neat
<balrog>
I wish Applesauce wasn't proprietary, but well, I get his reasoning
<andlabs|2>
okay so for context
<andlabs|2>
there's a master disk for an unreleased mega drive game called kartoon kombat
<balrog>
At least there's no awful EULA or anything like that
<andlabs|2>
it's a FAT formatted disk with the ROM split into the four EEPROM files
<andlabs|2>
and EEPROM file 4 is damaged
<balrog>
andlabs|2: yeah you might want to talk to philpem about that, but did you inspect the disk?
<andlabs|2>
multiple owners have tried to recover it to no avail but I don't know fi they ever tried flux-level stuff
<andlabs|2>
and now I own the disk
<balrog>
can you look closely at the disk and see if there is visible damage?
<andlabs|2>
no I'll need to get one of those 3D printed thingies
<andlabs|2>
I do have it in my shopping cart though
<balrog>
no don't do that yet
<balrog>
just carefully rotate the disk and inspect visually
<balrog>
I'm worried that media is gone
<andlabs|2>
that's what I meant though
<Foone>
your best bet to confirm if it's even there at all is to do a kryoflux (or other) flux image, then load it in HXE tools. that'll give you an analog view into the disk flux
<balrog>
oh, you're afraid of rotating it with your hand?
<andlabs|2>
well I could do that yeah
<balrog>
Foone: I mean yeah, but I'd first inspect, since well, things like Wabash disks
<Foone>
yeah.
<andlabs|2>
it's just a generic HD 3.5" disk with a custom label by Elite the game publisher
<balrog>
oh, 3.5, ok
<andlabs|2>
yes
<andlabs|2>
mid-90s lol
<balrog>
how many sectors are bad?
<andlabs|2>
no clue yet
<andlabs|2>
but given my description of the problem, probably at most 1/4 of them
<Foone>
kryoflux might be able to just recover it if it's bad sectors. I thought you meant it got erased
<andlabs|2>
no balrog wanted to confirm that it wasn't erased
<Foone>
with the kryoflux you can up the revolution count and that'll average reads across many rotations and that can read right through sector errors, often
<andlabs|2>
I don't know what the damage is exactly
<balrog>
andlabs|2: what devices do you have for dumping disks?
<balrog>
Ah, I'd just do a visual inspection forst
<andlabs|2>
a flux engine and a glasgow
<balrog>
first*
<andlabs|2>
the flux engine doesn't want to actually talk to any disk drives for some reason
<andlabs|2>
and I haven't built the glasgow cable yet
<Foone>
yeah I've run into that problem with flux engines as well. it seems to work, the dev board tests fine, the software flashes fine, then I plug in a drive and just get endless errors
<balrog>
andlabs|2: re fluxengine, is your cable short?
<balrog>
or are you plugging it in directly to the drive?
<andlabs|2>
different cables
<andlabs|2>
normal sized
<andlabs|2>
yes directly into the drive
<balrog>
so: you're supposed to use bus drivers to interface with a floppy drive
<andlabs|2>
the problem with flux engine is that it has the worst diagnostics
<balrog>
the lower end greaseweazle and the fluxengine don't use bus drivers, so long cables are likely to be a problem
<andlabs|2>
it didn't communicate! here's every possible reason we can think of that it could not work, none of which are correct
<andlabs|2>
I still wonder if we built it incorrectly some other way
<balrog>
did you build it by soldering pin header to a psoc5lp board?
<andlabs|2>
yes
<balrog>
there's not that much room for error...
<andlabs|2>
and then bridging one of the grounds to the board
<Foone>
I combine being mediocre at soldering with not having much money, so I pretty much have to try to solder them myself :)
<andlabs|2>
Floppy Drive No No Yes Yes No
<andlabs|2>
yes, a floppy disk dumping tool that doesn't use floppy drives
<andlabs|2>
somehow
<balrog>
Flippy Drive **
<andlabs|2>
oh
<andlabs|2>
I misread that
<andlabs|2>
lol
<balrog>
Flippy means one of those modified drives to do them in one pass
<Foone>
I have one of those. that mod is slightly a nightmare
<balrog>
yeah I'm not a fan
<balrog>
partly because of alignment
<andlabs|2>
brb making a flippy twiggy disk
<Sarayan>
going over track 0 is bad, mmkay?
<balrog>
install an external sensor and flip the disk
<Foone>
I think the one I tried to make was either a F7 V1 or an F7V2, one of the ones not listed under the main models, but listed under the Previous Models
<andlabs|2>
robotic disk flipper?
<andlabs|2>
technology connections will aporove
<Foone>
just flipping a disk won't work: the index pulse will be missing
<balrog>
ah, because these drives won't output data without the index pulse?
<andlabs|2>
no I meant a robotic arm that removes the disk, turns it around, and then inserts the disk again
<Sarayan>
3" was nice, the index pulse was in the middle
<andlabs|2>
or even rotats the entire drive
<balrog>
so then you're best off with an Apple style drive that can do 40 tracks :/
<andlabs|2>
the pioneer approach
<Sarayan>
it actually was desined to be flippable
<balrog>
unfortunately those aren't the most common
<Foone>
andlabs|2: right, I know. I'm just saying that flippy-modded drives exist because you can't automatically (or manually) flip single-sided disks and have them work
<andlabs|2>
oh?
<Foone>
yeah. the index hole won't line up
<andlabs|2>
then wait hwo did people do it in the commodore era
<Foone>
commodore disks didn't use the index hole, I believe
<balrog>
andlabs|2: those drives don't care about the index hole
<andlabs|2>
ah
<balrog>
some PC drives won't output data if there isn't proper index
<andlabs|2>
oh right
<andlabs|2>
the idnex hole
<andlabs|2>
or holes
<andlabs|2>
hard sectors ftw
<Foone>
and even if they do output data without the index hole, you lose alignment
<Sarayan>
some protections care about inter-track sync, and the index hole helps a lot
<Foone>
and track-to-track alignment is sometimes important for copy protection
<andlabs|2>
so should I get one of these greaseweazel things
<balrog>
Foone: that's why the applesauce supports an external index sensor
<andlabs|2>
which still sounds like some icomp product
<balrog>
(imo gw should too)
<Foone>
yah.
<Sarayan>
amusingly, inter-track sync afaict has only been used for protections on systems that don't have an index pulse
<Foone>
Sarayan: yeah! that's the point
<Sarayan>
becauese otherwise it's too easy :-)
<Foone>
because those systems are incapable of reproducing those disks
<Foone>
you have to make them on other systems, or carefully modded drives
<andlabs|2>
if yes then obviously I'd get a F7 Lightning Plus
<andlabs|2>
in which quese my question then would be who to get it from
<Foone>
anyway I need to get my 3.5" auto-imager working and then start to think how I'm ever going to build a 5.25" loader. that's going to be a nightmare
<balrog>
I know wohali was making another run
<balrog>
but Keir also sells them
<Foone>
3.5" autoloaders are rare, but you can find them. 5.25" autoloaders are "there may be only one left, and it's 5000$"
<Sarayan>
the other issue with DS reading of two-side SS disks is the offset between the two heads
<balrog>
Tony Diaz also want to build a 5.25" autoloader, but he's got too many projects as-is :)
<Foone>
I don't know who that is but I may have to talk to them to steal any ideas they have
<andlabs|2>
I'll pass on autoloading
<balrog>
#a2c.chat on irc.a2central.com
<andlabs|2>
mostly because I usually buy entire packages
<andlabs|2>
so just dumping the disks isn't enough; I also want to scan the documents and boxes
<andlabs|2>
and maybe alos the labels
<andlabs|2>
if it's safe to put a floppy disk in a scanner
<andlabs|2>
I don't know
<Sarayan>
I wonder, is there hardware that "sees" magnetism globally like a camera could in theory for a cdrom?
<Foone>
yes. it's not remotely cost-effective enough to use for this
<Sarayan>
what is it?
<Foone>
andlabs|2:it should be? the only magnetism is in the motor, which isn't gonna be near the disk
<Foone>
Sarayan: I can't recall the name off the top of my head. it's a type of magnetic microscope, I believe it's a distant relative of a SQUID? but they're like 50k$+
<andlabs|2>
balrog: sorry do you have an actual storefront link for any of those makers
<Foone>
Sarayan: I can't find where I tweeted about it, but I think it may be a scanning NV magnetometer
<Foone>
andlabs|2: I don't think any of them do. it's a "sign up in the facebook group when a run is being planned" sorto f thing
<Sarayan>
Foone: yeah, resolution is way over what's needed :-)
<andlabs|2>
ok
<Sarayan>
I don't remember, how long is the access zone in a floppy?